Looking for portfolio websites is probably a bad criteria. I don't know any experienced devs who have one. Designers do, but not devs. So you might have filtered out the people you really want to talk to.
This is exactly it. I've been in tech for over 20 years and don't think I know a single developer with a portfolio. I can imagine new grads and consulting devs having one, but that's a shallow pool and probably not one OP intends to limit the search to.
I have a sizeable PDF with one. But mostly because I did freelancing. Larger companies are dismissive of them; they don't want you build a whole site, they just want you to add buttons to an existing one.
I'm not sure if it's the wrong approach, though. Some like doing things end to end, and these will find their place in small companies.
I would think most _full stack web_ developers probably have a website (if not a portfolio maybe a personal project or blog). Agreed though that making it a hard requirement would probably exclude some good candidates.
First, check compensation and job description. Are you paying too little? If you don't tell them how much you're paying, it's almost always certain that it's too little. If you can't pay well, consider something like 4 day work weeks. Corporations need 5 because they spend 3 days in meetings, code review, writing docs, commenting on docs, etc, etc.
Second, is the job description a turn off? I've had friends ask me why they can't get applicants. They showed me the job desc, which sounded a lot like looking for a part for a machine. I pointed out everything I didn't like about it and she said that everyone else does the same so they'll keep it to not seem weird.
You can't do this at a startup. Be weird. VCs expect you to be building things OpenAI can't and won't; you're already insane by definition. There's hundreds of founders out there in this era of AI who are looking for adventure and you have to stand out to the applicants as well.
I actually checked out your product and sorry to say, it's not something I want to be doing either. If I wanted to do finance & AI research, I'm well funded and well salaried where I am. Try to make it seem attractive. There are also people who are happy to work 6 day weeks, but you have to prove that you're a winner.
Third, check that you're not fishing in a puddle. Job sites are absolutely terrible, 1 in 200 can't do basic things. LinkedIn is okay, but you're fishing next to the biggest companies in the world. There's indie sites that prioritise remote or 4 day jobs, try those. HN will have a Who is Hiring thread every month; the quality is very high on both sides here.
If you are looking for a Python Dev (or a Fractal CTO / Tech Lead) who is versatile and has extensive experience being a founding / early engineer at startups (working closely with business), feel free to reach out :)
It's a little hard to believe only 5/80 devs could talk through a solution. It's possible your standard was to high for what was "correct". I love no-code problems since if find the problem and solution more interesting without the distraction of working in some different coding environment (seems like they're always different in interviews).
It's also surprising that only 4/80 had a website to show you. I would expect that most web devs have a personal site or Github to show you. I did that prior to my last internal team move going from mostly backend work to mostly front-end work. It seemed to make a good impression for the manager that I had a working site with a variety of components and some customized CSS. It's also a real site for advertising my honey and other apiary products. I also wonder if the sites you mentioned were really identical, or if the framework and css templates just made them look similar? It's really easy to see a material or bootstrap site and say it looks like any other material of bootstrap site.
Nah, this is a pretty good rate. Half the applicants can't FizzBuzz on paper to save their lives. If you ask them to actually write code, it would be closer to 1/80. Which is why interviewing sucks so hard... most of the time you're just filtering spam. Either you use a ATS or make them do an insultingly easy coding test before they can talk to anyone. People are happy to lie on their resume and cheat in tests to get their foot in the door, which is why smaller companies tend to do the latter.
However, this might also mean that OP is using a bad pipeline, probably craigslist or something similarly cheap/free where good devs don't hang around.
Finding good devs is hard on its own, but you have to consider the market you are looking at.
NextJS/React covers a massive talent pool, so you will inevitably get less experienced candidates going through your pipeline until a good one shows up.
You might not spend as much time if you were tapping into the markets of say Clojure or Elixir, maybe even Go. Not telling you to change your stack, just highlighting the differences in talent pool size and quality.
Be transparent with the compensation from the get go. If you are trying to tap LATAM markets, good devs are reaching (close to, but still a bit far) US salaries, so offering 70-80k for a Senior role won’t guarantee a Senior dev.
Your frustration is understandable! Finding strong devs is tough, and the copy-paste portfolios are a major red flag.
A few tweaks might help:
Ensure your scenarios are tricky enough to differentiate true problem-solvers.
You can go beyond usual job boards: Explore Indie Hackers, GitHub, and Stack Overflow to find passionate devs.
Networking is important - you can attend meetups and conferences related to your tech stack. Most likely to get good talent there with high intent.
In general take-home assignments should be short & focused) - around 2-4 hours max and you can consider offering compensation.
We need to keep refining our approach, and yes don't be afraid to sell your company's vision to attract the right talent!
I haven't used it myself, but I consider myself a "good" dev and get to be picky about what projects I work on. This is the kind of job opportunity I would respond to.
Notice Dane's entire approach is centered on what the "good" devs value and are interested in: their fears and desires.
Also Dane approaches specific "top" devs directly (vs blasting out job postings and wading through mediocre applications.)
This reads like satire and his email to developers is very similar to spam.
I really liked this part:
I demand the best work from you. I expect the best from you. You will be challenged. You will grow. And your skills will sharpen. If you like to settle on being average and do average work, this is not your project.
The dev was probably the CTO for several years. When Dane stepped down from the CEO position he asked Rajesh if he wanted to take over.
Dane used this process over ten times. Paperless Pipeline is probably the most successful example and semi-documented.
---
I think if you offer an appealing opportunity, you don't have to offer the most money. There are many other things you can offer (as outlined in that PDF).
Recently I almost took a project for 40% of my normal rate. Fortunately things worked out and I negotiated 80% of my rate, even though I should probably increase my rate.
It's $150k in 2024 dollars assuming 40 hours/week, which I would consider pretty decent for a minimum - a bit above median depending on who you ask.
The document itself I agree has some parts which are a bit over-the-top but that's probably the case for all hiring advice. When you list the qualities of the perfect candidate out on paper it's guaranteed to look ridiculous.
I usually ask about the developer's experience and create scenarios based on what they consider their strengths. This approach is fairer, in my opinion, since not everyone has worked with AWS and S3, despite their common usage. Another important point is that you can never truly gauge how well a developer will fit until they actually start working for you. Given the current market is quite favorable for employers, and if you have the scope for development, it might make sense to start with several developers and then keep the one who fits best. However, in this case, please ensure you mention that there will be a probation period.
Additionally, I know many great developers who do not have portfolio websites.
TL;DR: the better results you want the better work as hiring manager you have to do.
For example extremely experienced engineer with wide market exposure and hi empathy can manually review CVs that passed some basic filters for quality.
Someone capable of quickly putting himself in each candidate shoes based on the line in CV.
That will produce a small but hi quality bunch of candidates to talk to.
Another thing (besides lack of portfolio being a weak data point) - some very strong engineers are very nervous and suck with live coding (rightfully so) they prefer take home assignments where they have time to carefully think about the solution.
Also best engineers are often worst in selling themselves (because they spent their 10k hours engineering, not selling or leetcoding).
Best engineers are also stack agnostic. Emphasizing specific new shiny thing in job posting can be a deterrent, and in their cv you would rarely find “nextjs”, because for them it’s just another library. Not something to brag about or even mention in cv.
To attract them - spend more time describing the problem, the challenge, the value you gonna create and less - tech stack and constraints.
That's a tough one. I would perfer to work without people looking over my shoulder, using my own equipment, etc. However, I would not want to dedicate that much time to something that might not workout.
But the time limits won't be even. Give people 24 hours to turn it in and you'll have some doing the expected 8 hours of work and others who might do 16 hours of work. Still, I don't want to spend 8 hours on an interview task. If you want to see work that I've created for personal projects, just look at Github and websites I provide on the resume. Don't make me spend a full day doing busy work for a job that I statistically won't get.
Your looking for a developer for a trendy new stack. It is not surprising you are going to get people without experience which translates to a non professional experience when hiring.
Welcome to the world of hiring especially startup hiring. It is a tough job as a founder. One of the hardest things to get right but also critical if you want to scale/grow.
Here are some of the lessons I have learned over the years (Hiring on and off for almost a decade now):
- Portfolio sites are crap. They are built by people who have no real experience and need it to try and break in the tech world. Theya re mostly "bootcampers" or self taught devs who aqre too junior. You mayfind a few gems but extremely unlikely.
- Most "good" devs are taken, let alone great ones. To add to it, most good/great devs are not interested in risky startups. So your candidate pool is extremely small already. You cannot just post a job and expect to find the gems that would be a fit for startups. You most likely won't not for the first few hires that matter.
- The only way is to tap into your own network and experiences. For example, I was able to convince an ex-co worker of mine to join my company as I knew he would a great fit. He wouldn't have applied to any jobs but he gladly took me up on my offer as we worked together for a few years in our corporate jobs way back.
- You also need to sell your company/product/vision. Get online everywhere. Have a twitter. Be social. Talk about your company/product/goals etc. It may attract some good people. It may.
- Your first 5-10 employees need to be dreamers, hustlers, romantics. They cannot be someone who jut wants a job. Won't work. Never does. Good luck.
Hi, we have few developers that are highly talented within our team that I'm happy to share to work full time with yourself. Happy to get a free test task as well. Let me know if you would like to jump on a quick call.
Looking for portfolio websites is probably a bad criteria. I don't know any experienced devs who have one. Designers do, but not devs. So you might have filtered out the people you really want to talk to.
This is exactly it. I've been in tech for over 20 years and don't think I know a single developer with a portfolio. I can imagine new grads and consulting devs having one, but that's a shallow pool and probably not one OP intends to limit the search to.
I have a sizeable PDF with one. But mostly because I did freelancing. Larger companies are dismissive of them; they don't want you build a whole site, they just want you to add buttons to an existing one.
I'm not sure if it's the wrong approach, though. Some like doing things end to end, and these will find their place in small companies.
I would think most _full stack web_ developers probably have a website (if not a portfolio maybe a personal project or blog). Agreed though that making it a hard requirement would probably exclude some good candidates.
First, check compensation and job description. Are you paying too little? If you don't tell them how much you're paying, it's almost always certain that it's too little. If you can't pay well, consider something like 4 day work weeks. Corporations need 5 because they spend 3 days in meetings, code review, writing docs, commenting on docs, etc, etc.
Second, is the job description a turn off? I've had friends ask me why they can't get applicants. They showed me the job desc, which sounded a lot like looking for a part for a machine. I pointed out everything I didn't like about it and she said that everyone else does the same so they'll keep it to not seem weird.
You can't do this at a startup. Be weird. VCs expect you to be building things OpenAI can't and won't; you're already insane by definition. There's hundreds of founders out there in this era of AI who are looking for adventure and you have to stand out to the applicants as well.
I actually checked out your product and sorry to say, it's not something I want to be doing either. If I wanted to do finance & AI research, I'm well funded and well salaried where I am. Try to make it seem attractive. There are also people who are happy to work 6 day weeks, but you have to prove that you're a winner.
Third, check that you're not fishing in a puddle. Job sites are absolutely terrible, 1 in 200 can't do basic things. LinkedIn is okay, but you're fishing next to the biggest companies in the world. There's indie sites that prioritise remote or 4 day jobs, try those. HN will have a Who is Hiring thread every month; the quality is very high on both sides here.
If you are looking for a Python Dev (or a Fractal CTO / Tech Lead) who is versatile and has extensive experience being a founding / early engineer at startups (working closely with business), feel free to reach out :)
If you're looking for a code-monkey - don't
It's a little hard to believe only 5/80 devs could talk through a solution. It's possible your standard was to high for what was "correct". I love no-code problems since if find the problem and solution more interesting without the distraction of working in some different coding environment (seems like they're always different in interviews).
It's also surprising that only 4/80 had a website to show you. I would expect that most web devs have a personal site or Github to show you. I did that prior to my last internal team move going from mostly backend work to mostly front-end work. It seemed to make a good impression for the manager that I had a working site with a variety of components and some customized CSS. It's also a real site for advertising my honey and other apiary products. I also wonder if the sites you mentioned were really identical, or if the framework and css templates just made them look similar? It's really easy to see a material or bootstrap site and say it looks like any other material of bootstrap site.
Nah, this is a pretty good rate. Half the applicants can't FizzBuzz on paper to save their lives. If you ask them to actually write code, it would be closer to 1/80. Which is why interviewing sucks so hard... most of the time you're just filtering spam. Either you use a ATS or make them do an insultingly easy coding test before they can talk to anyone. People are happy to lie on their resume and cheat in tests to get their foot in the door, which is why smaller companies tend to do the latter.
However, this might also mean that OP is using a bad pipeline, probably craigslist or something similarly cheap/free where good devs don't hang around.
If the rates are really that low, why don't I get offers? Basic fizzbuzz easy.
Finding good devs is hard on its own, but you have to consider the market you are looking at.
NextJS/React covers a massive talent pool, so you will inevitably get less experienced candidates going through your pipeline until a good one shows up.
You might not spend as much time if you were tapping into the markets of say Clojure or Elixir, maybe even Go. Not telling you to change your stack, just highlighting the differences in talent pool size and quality.
Be transparent with the compensation from the get go. If you are trying to tap LATAM markets, good devs are reaching (close to, but still a bit far) US salaries, so offering 70-80k for a Senior role won’t guarantee a Senior dev.
Your frustration is understandable! Finding strong devs is tough, and the copy-paste portfolios are a major red flag. A few tweaks might help: Ensure your scenarios are tricky enough to differentiate true problem-solvers. You can go beyond usual job boards: Explore Indie Hackers, GitHub, and Stack Overflow to find passionate devs. Networking is important - you can attend meetups and conferences related to your tech stack. Most likely to get good talent there with high intent. In general take-home assignments should be short & focused) - around 2-4 hours max and you can consider offering compensation. We need to keep refining our approach, and yes don't be afraid to sell your company's vision to attract the right talent!
"Finding strong devs is tough"
Why not look for promising devs and develop them?
Dane Maxwell gave the best advice/method I've found for hiring (and managing) devs: https://s3.amazonaws.com/Publicpdf/Hiring_An_A_Player_Develo...
I haven't used it myself, but I consider myself a "good" dev and get to be picky about what projects I work on. This is the kind of job opportunity I would respond to.
Notice Dane's entire approach is centered on what the "good" devs value and are interested in: their fears and desires.
Also Dane approaches specific "top" devs directly (vs blasting out job postings and wading through mediocre applications.)
This reads like satire and his email to developers is very similar to spam.
I really liked this part:
I demand the best work from you. I expect the best from you. You will be challenged. You will grow. And your skills will sharpen. If you like to settle on being average and do average work, this is not your project.
Expects the best, pays $50 per hour.
That was $50/hr over fifteen years ago (circa 2009), and didn't include equity in the project.
That dev is now the CEO of the business:
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajesh-dhawan-68702388/
- https://www.paperlesspipeline.com/
So it must have worked at least once.
That seems low even for 2009. Also, why is the developer the CEO and not the CTO? This is such a random example.
The dev was probably the CTO for several years. When Dane stepped down from the CEO position he asked Rajesh if he wanted to take over.
Dane used this process over ten times. Paperless Pipeline is probably the most successful example and semi-documented.
---
I think if you offer an appealing opportunity, you don't have to offer the most money. There are many other things you can offer (as outlined in that PDF).
Recently I almost took a project for 40% of my normal rate. Fortunately things worked out and I negotiated 80% of my rate, even though I should probably increase my rate.
It's $150k in 2024 dollars assuming 40 hours/week, which I would consider pretty decent for a minimum - a bit above median depending on who you ask.
The document itself I agree has some parts which are a bit over-the-top but that's probably the case for all hiring advice. When you list the qualities of the perfect candidate out on paper it's guaranteed to look ridiculous.
I found another example where Dane used this hiring strategy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131208173349/http://thefoundat...
I usually ask about the developer's experience and create scenarios based on what they consider their strengths. This approach is fairer, in my opinion, since not everyone has worked with AWS and S3, despite their common usage. Another important point is that you can never truly gauge how well a developer will fit until they actually start working for you. Given the current market is quite favorable for employers, and if you have the scope for development, it might make sense to start with several developers and then keep the one who fits best. However, in this case, please ensure you mention that there will be a probation period.
Additionally, I know many great developers who do not have portfolio websites.
Use Upwork or Toptal?
There is a higher bar for developers on Upwork or Toptal but they are very expensive.
But since you want great developers (ideally senior developers) and have the VC funding to do so, this shouldn't be a problem.
Stop looking for a nextjs programmer and look for a JS/fullstack one. Nextjs is a tiktok framework
Use your network. Don’t use LinkedIn. Ask other developers jn your network if they know anyone who is looking.
TL;DR: the better results you want the better work as hiring manager you have to do.
For example extremely experienced engineer with wide market exposure and hi empathy can manually review CVs that passed some basic filters for quality.
Someone capable of quickly putting himself in each candidate shoes based on the line in CV.
That will produce a small but hi quality bunch of candidates to talk to.
Another thing (besides lack of portfolio being a weak data point) - some very strong engineers are very nervous and suck with live coding (rightfully so) they prefer take home assignments where they have time to carefully think about the solution.
Also best engineers are often worst in selling themselves (because they spent their 10k hours engineering, not selling or leetcoding).
Best engineers are also stack agnostic. Emphasizing specific new shiny thing in job posting can be a deterrent, and in their cv you would rarely find “nextjs”, because for them it’s just another library. Not something to brag about or even mention in cv.
To attract them - spend more time describing the problem, the challenge, the value you gonna create and less - tech stack and constraints.
What and why, not how.
> they prefer take home assignments
Proof or it didn't happen. I have never met--or even heard of until now--a developer that preferred this.
I do. Few of my friends. Few strangers that +1 my comments on this matter in the past on HN.
What’s so surprising?
And what other alternative can even remotely represent actual work conditions that a candidate would have?
That's a tough one. I would perfer to work without people looking over my shoulder, using my own equipment, etc. However, I would not want to dedicate that much time to something that might not workout.
That is the key part on hiring side - take home must be reasonably scoped and relevant to future work experience.
Id say anything ~1 work day is a good upper limit.
But the time limits won't be even. Give people 24 hours to turn it in and you'll have some doing the expected 8 hours of work and others who might do 16 hours of work. Still, I don't want to spend 8 hours on an interview task. If you want to see work that I've created for personal projects, just look at Github and websites I provide on the resume. Don't make me spend a full day doing busy work for a job that I statistically won't get.
1. That should be one of the last steps only for someone you want to hire but just want to make sure he’s not a fraud
2. ~8h of work should be an estimated task scope for average developer on position you hiring for, or for candidate’s experience
3. Ideally it is an option to choose from (“you want live coding sessions or take home assignments?”)
Your looking for a developer for a trendy new stack. It is not surprising you are going to get people without experience which translates to a non professional experience when hiring.
I didn't think Next.js was that new. I believe it's one of the more popular frameworks out there.
It so happens that I am also looking for a new gig right now, so if you are still looking for an excellent dev, we should chat :)
Welcome to the world of hiring especially startup hiring. It is a tough job as a founder. One of the hardest things to get right but also critical if you want to scale/grow.
Here are some of the lessons I have learned over the years (Hiring on and off for almost a decade now):
- Portfolio sites are crap. They are built by people who have no real experience and need it to try and break in the tech world. Theya re mostly "bootcampers" or self taught devs who aqre too junior. You mayfind a few gems but extremely unlikely.
- Most "good" devs are taken, let alone great ones. To add to it, most good/great devs are not interested in risky startups. So your candidate pool is extremely small already. You cannot just post a job and expect to find the gems that would be a fit for startups. You most likely won't not for the first few hires that matter.
- The only way is to tap into your own network and experiences. For example, I was able to convince an ex-co worker of mine to join my company as I knew he would a great fit. He wouldn't have applied to any jobs but he gladly took me up on my offer as we worked together for a few years in our corporate jobs way back.
- You also need to sell your company/product/vision. Get online everywhere. Have a twitter. Be social. Talk about your company/product/goals etc. It may attract some good people. It may.
- Your first 5-10 employees need to be dreamers, hustlers, romantics. They cannot be someone who jut wants a job. Won't work. Never does. Good luck.
Hi, we have few developers that are highly talented within our team that I'm happy to share to work full time with yourself. Happy to get a free test task as well. Let me know if you would like to jump on a quick call.
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