Focus less on those who helped you, and more on helping others.
The first time I went to Defcon, I felt lonely and lost -- it was the first year they had those cool electronic badges, and at the time they were only given out as entrance tokens for an exclusive party that was the talk of the con.
I didn't really "know" anyone there -- like a lot of young hackers, I was part of one of those vBulletin board hacker crews that have been lost to time and I'd exhausted the meager savings I had built up that summer on my plane ticket and hotel room at the Riviera.
A lot of people who had expense accounts were going out to nice places for dinner -- the guy with per diem would get drinks, the guy who had to itemize, and me, the guy trying to get a group together to visit that cool looking dive bar next to Bally's kept getting laughed at and called a newbie...
Then none other than Dan Kaminsky[1] strolls up, tells me he knows who I am (!) and heard I'd been asking about the ninja party, tells me he can't get me in but he knows a room party. Shows me a room next to the pool with a keg in the bathtub, I threw them a five and we sat around talking until late in the night. They had some good tips on cheap places to eat, how to get free drinks at the penny slots, that sort of thing.
And then, every year since that I visited, I did what he did... wander the convention looking for the budget travel crew, the folks who don't do it for a salary and whom this is their reality, and I'd take them on a quest for two dollar hot dogs, show them the little store next to the dive bar where they could stock up on beer and liquor and ice and then disappear into the night like some kind of helpful spirit of the hacker night.
Anyways... long, profuse thank yous are not needed. What you should do is make sure you keep the gates open that were not gatekept for you. Be the person who connects others, in ways that you can't always list on your CV.
Agreed. Over the years I've touched base with folks who helped me out at crucial times and they didn't even remember the incident. Like one time when I was not offered a job after an internship, this senior guy stepped in and made sure they gave me an offer. I thanked him 20 years later for helping me get my start. He just said, "Really? I don't recall that, but glad I could help." So paying it forward is probably the best strategy.
I think in some cases it's because the type of person who would go above & beyond to help just naturally does this as their normal course of business. It is routine behavior for them, and each act is not memorable.
I had some time in a non-tech gatekeeping position and was able to help a bunch of people, who occasionally thank me for it, and I generally don't remember the details at all, and it's nice and all to be thanked, but I was just doing it because it was the right thing to do. On the other hand I'd be absolutely psyched to hear they were doing it for someone else -- that would put a huge smile on my face.
People who have developed a life pattern of helping other people without any expectation of reciprocal help; often don't remember many of the specific acts of kindness they performed.
Yeah, I used to have a similar drive as OP where I thought some sort of grand gesture was in order towards various people in my life. And I can't think of a single time it particularly paid off.
It's not like they go "ah yes, just what I deserve!"
If anything, it puts them in a confusing or uncomfortable position.
I get it now. But if you have people to thank, call them and make it short and sweet. But don't do the big gesture.
I had the pleasure of meeting Dan in person a few times up here in the Bay Area. He was incredibly approachable and always generous with his time. If he sensed your curiosity, he’d give you his full, undivided attention.
Just weeks before he passed, we were trading long Twitter DMs late into the evening—deep, technical conversations spanning topics that were hard to get good information on elsewhere.
After his passing, as I began sharing these stories, I found that so many others had experienced the exact same generosity from him. He had a remarkable way of making people feel seen and supported.
My personal rule: Always try and help people whenever the opportunity arrises (especially people you don't know). It doesn't matter how small the assistance or if you will see this person again. You might be surprised at how it feels and the knock on effects that occur. Once I started looking for opportunities I found them everywhere.
Treating people shitty has no reward, takes zero effort and minimal intelligence.
when mentoring most people its true. but not always true. some asses need to be "karate-sized". this, by definition, requires effort, intelligence, and denial of all passion. of course, you can alternately find a different mentor if resources are not so limited. Otherwise its time to sweep the legs of those who doubt the power of this fully functional linux operating system.
Dan ran up to our table at a con excited to show us all the ssh tricks he was currently into at the time. His excitement and curiosity was contagious. We’d connect at events over the years and he’d always have something interesting to show off. Jet airplane explosion videos ran through MRI software? Check. AR app for the colorblind? Check. Keep DNS safe? Check. Dan was a hacker’s hacker. He was always lifting others up, paying it forward. It’s your duty to do the same. Stay human.
I can't speak for those that helped the OP, but I take joy in helping strangers of all sorts.
The only payback would be in passing it on. The act is an attempt to build a culture of openness and collaboration. It is only partially about helping the person that needs it and more about creating a gift to future us.
The big lesson is recognizing how far a little help goes.
Often it's not much for the person who gave you help, but the result cascades. Nobody is completely self made. We do a lot of work to push ourselves forward but it still relies on other people.
So as you grow, take a chance on others. Don't just look at who they are but who they want to become. The world is full of gates that are extremely difficult to pass through but trivial to hold open for others. It can be making introductions, passing along a resume, or just taking the time to say hi and be friendly.
Recognize that the world is noisy and that these little things help us navigate. We solve big problems by breaking them down into many little problems, so it should be easy to understand how solving little problems makes progress towards solving big ones. Even if you don't know what that big problem is. Just try to make the world a better place. Recognize your struggles and when you can, help others to not face the same issues. You can't solve everything and you won't be perfect, but as you've recognized, a little can go a long way. So do that.
People aren't born wizards. We all start as noobs. Don't forget the journey
I had a similar experience at PET in Ottawa around 2007. I felt so out of place listening to so many interesting talks and seeing all these people that I "knew" from mailing lists and IRC channels. Len Sassaman was really kind to me and included in me in hallway conversations. It was so wild I couldn't get over that rabbi was taking the time to explain things to me and listen to my questions. He definitely was not extending some grand charitable gesture, it was just genuine kindness.
I know I will never have that kind of impact on someone but I hope I have / can continue to pay rabbi back by practicing that level of kindness and consideration to others.
Is "PET" the "Privacy Enhancing Technologies Symposium"?[0]
Looks like it became a "symposium" in 2008[1] if we're discussing the same thing.
The one PETS I went to, Dan wasn't at, but Caspar Bowden joined me in my quest to try to eat lunch before 9pm in a certain EU country and reassured me that my concerns about mass surveillance were rooted in facts and logic in rather disturbing detail.
My impression of academia was that there's two very different sets of people, one I came to term the "hostel people", the other the "hotel people": Hostel people would talk to whoever seemed interesting, hotel people want to know: Who are you, who's your adviser, where did you do your bachelors, where did you do your master's, what did your parents do, did you go to a fancy prep school, did you grow up in a large city or "flyover country", and so on and so forth.
Anyways, in comedy we often talk about "punching up" -- when it comes to building community I feel it's best to do the opposite and "shore up the base" -- focus on building up the next generation.
That was it. It seemed like a golden age for a lot of different p2p privacy ideas. I don't know what a modern version of the conference would look like.
Carried on the tradition, and credited the "man", and potentially spawned others to do the same. I think that would be have been biggest thank you Dan Kaminsky could have received.
I didn't know Dan personally, but everyone I know who knew him said Dan was good people. I wish I'd gotten to know him.
Piling-on your story: I'd love to know who the guy was I hung out with at Defcon 3. My friends' flights were earlier than mine and I ended up alone in Las Vegas, newly-turned 18 y/o and w/ very little travel experience outside of Ohio.
I ended up hanging out talking with a Unix hacker in his mid-late 20s who struck up a conversation w/ me on the con floor. We hung out the rest of Sunday until my flight left. It made what otherwise would have been a lonely and stressful day a lot of fun.
He gave me an email address to hit him up after the con. It turned out to be fake. I've never been able to find any references to his "name", the domain name on the email, etc. I don't know if he gave me the fake address because of the stigma of a "hacker con"(being worried about real identities, etc). I hope it wasn't because he just didn't want to hear from me again (albeit I do recognize I was pretty insufferable at that age).
If you remember hanging out w/ a long-haired kid on the last Saturday of Defcon 3 I'd love to touch base. (My God... that will be 30 years ago in a couple months.)
Most likely, that was just bad handwriting. It has certainly happened to me that others couldn’t decipher when I meant o or 0. But wasn’t me, I’ve never been to defcon.
Man, I was not looking to get suddenly reminded of how much I miss him. I just finally this year got around to throwing out his luggage and clothes stashed here.
Is this what getting old feels like? Seemed it never happened now it is a regular occurrence. Just as life is getting really good, my friends have started dying off.
I agree with “fairfax” when he says to focus on helping others.
I would add something to that advice. I would tell you to go back to the people that helped you, and thank them. Tell them what they did, and why it helped you.
That may prove both cathartic and/or encouraging to those who helped you, and spur them on to continue helping others.
I say this because I was a foster child. I aged out of the system. In general, the experience was terrible, but there were a couple families who made a significant impact in my life by things they said and taught.
10 years later, when some of that began to take root in my life, and have a real impact, I went back and thanked them. It was a VERY good thing.
I would say when you have the opportunity, you should do the same.
By the time I was cool enough to have my pick of parties, I ended up having a massive panic attack during the crowd crush at the bar at some Rapid7 event and ending up pissing off the person who got me the ticket by leaving after 30 minutes to go buy a Manhattan at some side bar in the casino rather than wait in line 45 minutes for a beer, then spend another 45 minutes trying to wiggle away, only to start wiggling back.
As others have indicated: I think many people who show others "incredible kindness and inspiration" would value you doing the same for others more than anything you could probably do for them. However, simply telling them "you were incredibly kind to me and you are a big reason for me trying to be kind to others" might just make their day.
100% this. If I run into someone and they say "15 years ago you helped me out with X, and as a result these other great things happened" it will literally make my week.
Somebody reached out to me 5 years ago to tell me that a small gesture in high school made a big difference in their life.
We’re both into our 30s now, and I never knew her very well, and hadn’t even seen (or talked to) her since I’d graduated. But I did remember the gesture - and even these 5 years later it still makes me happy to remember her thanking me! Like, it didn’t feel like I was doing anything much at all at the time, and I probably would’ve never even thought about it again.
This. And stay in contact over the years. Everyone needs more friends, and some people really need them. That is worth far more than almost anything you could give/buy.
I unfortunately did this to two people that were instrumental in my life, except during a manic episode, and while I sprinkled some good stuff in there, I also said some cringe things that I'm really embarrassed about. Rather than try and apologise many years later, I've just let it hang, and hope they appreciated the good things I said and not the odd out of place manic-inspired things.
Hard to speculate, but again, I would assume that many people who show others "incredible kindness and inspiration" accept neurodiversity instead of expecting some sort of apology for it (and might even be willing to talk about such things).
This - and probably asking if they know other people that might benefit of your new experience/skills. If they probably helped you, they are still helping someone else too.
The gratitude is good and correct, but they did not do it for any kind of return from you. What they wanted most was for you to turn around and do the same thing for others.
Or not even that, just make good productive use of what they gave you. Merely having a job that does something in any way useful to society and doesn't actively harm others is good enough. But if you do go a bit further and be generous with your own time and consideration to others, even better.
If you feel this way to even write this post, then helping someone else with their problem probably comes naturally already and you don't even have to do anything you don't already naturally like to do and are probably already doing.
I came from a pretty terrible situation, and by the time I was 17, was living on my own, in the local housing authority apartments. In high school, a local businessman, who later became mayor, helped me out. I was on the debate team, and needed a suit, so he took me shopping, and not only bought the suit, but an entire wardrobe and other assistance. We communicated off and on as I went into college etc (he passed a few years later)
He told me that when I was successful, to do the same.
My best friend is spending 100 days writing hand written letters of love to those who contributed to her life’s journey. There’s humanity and connectedness with writing that no other medium offers both the writer and the reader. Her writing has been received with such love, tears of joy, and mutual appreciation. This includes book authors that she’s found herself meaningfully influenced and inspired by. She’s half way through the project, and I’m sure she’d be happy to connect if you’d like any tips.
One big tip is make sure your hands are ready with the proper pen and hand exercises.
By the way, I just wanted to also say I love big chunks of this whole comments section; so much pure positivity and human beauty in one place, so soothing, uplifting, and inspiring to me. Thanks hereby to everyone sharing around here how they're consciously recognizing and acting in various amazing ways on the good they received.
The hand written letters have mistakes and flow that are perfectly imperfect. Also it looks like despite all their effort, they still went able to get the robot to anywhere near replicating human level writing in even a short note.
I have a goal of writing a thank you note a month to people who have helped me. (Reminds me, I need to do that this month.)
The folks I've done this for were pleasantly surprised, both by the note and the contents of it. They'd forgotten how they helped me, which makes sense, because it was a big deal for me but not for them.
A physical note, reminding them of the help they gave you, is a great way to say thanks.
A colleague did this to me some years ago, he thanked me for the mentorship and confidence I gave him that enabled him to apply for a better paying job title.
It felt like rays of sunshine that came at a time were I particularly needed some, it made my week and then some.
Think about what someone did for you in the past (an intro, a kind word, a helpful convo an investment, whatever it was) and try to do it for someone in your life today.
People might not remember things that made such a difference to you and a Thank You will mean a lot. Also maybe if you lost touch with some, maybe now that you are older and without a work or other hierarchy to get in the way, you could be friends. I have seen this a few times.
I tithe. I don't mean that in a religious sense at all, but it's the way I pay my community back for that support. It's also not just in terms of money -- I count time volunteering and mentoring as part of tithing. It's also not repaying the people who helped me directly, but I don't think that's the important part. The way you pay them back is to "pay it forward" and do for others as those people have done for you.
If it's not religious I don't know why you'd call it tithing, that's not what that word means. For example, I do communion, but not in the religious sense, I take shots and order a frozen pizza at the bar.
"Tithe" is not inherently a religious term (it just means "a levy of 1/10th"), despite it mostly being used in a religious context. I use it because there is no good alternative term.
10% is the standard I follow. It's built into my budgeting at that level. There's nothing magical about the 10%, though, it's just what works for me and is easy to compute. But I also follow the "pay yourself first" rule -- I take 10% off the top of every dollar that I receive, and put that aside for future me. Then I set aside 10% of the remainder to pay back my community. So, it's really 9%.
Since they invested their time in you, I would suggest that you give back in kind. Call them, send them a note, email/text, etc. It is easier than ever to keep in touch with people now-a-days. Meet them in person if they are open to that and you are able to.
If some of these mentors are retired, I'm sure they would love to hear from a former protege/student/mentee. Watching my dad after his retirement, he always enjoys these interactions with his former colleagues -- talk about their profession or department. Made his day/week in most cases. Retirement can be professionally lonely sometimes.
I've worked directly with several HNW individuals, and the biggest "snub" (real or not) I ever witnessed was a multi-millionaire who sabotaged a mentee's already-disastrous wedding... because he wasn't thanked in the wedding handout.
Dollars meant nothing to him, but control — and meant nothing to this Groom.
>If some of these mentors are retired
Retired people typically rock, so-long as they didn't spend their entire careers being bullies. For several years I lived in a retirement community (as "the help") and the endless dinners/conversations rarely "got old." I mostly enjoyed working with/for elderly retirees, except that most seem to have almost no concept of how much dollars have deflated since their pre-70s/80s/90s gold-backed hayday.
>[things you could do]
Help raise "the next generation" by living well and mentoring your own deserving minds — perhaps have an informal lunch with both your advisor and advisee?
I've actually thought of having a big dinner for all of the managers I've had over the years that were helpful in getting me to where I am today.
That being said, even a handwritten note or phone call to say "I just wanted to say that at X time in my life, you did Y and it was amazing at the time and helped me get to where I am now" goes a LONG way.
I would go a step further, or to the side, than others have indicated in terms of paying it forward, and suggest doing everything in your power to remain humble, and ideally donate your time (and money if you have an extreme surplus) to people who aren't necessarily just in your field. Spend time making real solid friends in your community, and help them with whatever you can in the ways that they've (not you, unless they are looking for help identifying solutions) identified they need help with. I try to make myself available for helping with random computer issues, buggy old WordPress installations, whatever, whenever I realistically can, and just try to be a welcoming presence and friend. In addition to all the stuff in my field I can do, like helping aspiring juniors get a footing.
Send a note. The director of my old lab was essentially a proxy father for me for nearly 10 years, and inspired me to take my life and career more seriously, which I did. Work was not the only thing, but life. I took up running because I looked up to him in my 20s, I remember seeing him and thinking "wow, this guy is in his mid 40s and looks great!" Tell them. His wife told me in secret that it made him so happy he cried.
If it was a long time ago that they helped you, some of them may be old. The very old are often isolated and in need of company and other forms of help. If that sounds like the folks who helped you, I’m sure just checking in with them would mean a lot.
I agree with a lot of the comments that (1) giving heartfelt thanks (which you can do more than once over the years) and (2) being there to help them if they ever need it and (3) paying it forward is the best you can do.
You could throw money at it or try to make big gestures but to the people that helped you just knowing how much it meant to you is the best reward.
"Pay it forwards" is the general advice here, and I think it is generally correct in the macro/social sense.
Although not completely analogous, helping people is similar to gifting. In gifting societies, we don't give to someone with the expectation of a direct benefit in return (A -> B, B -> A). Instead, it's more of a long arc that goes around a corner and returns in an indirect sense (A --> B --> C --> ... --> A).
When you layer time succession in, helping others progresses more like the circle of life. It often doesn't make sense to give back directly — your professors are already at the peak of their careers — but we can give back to society. In doing so, we increase the resonance of the gift that was given.
Often, the role of the receiver is simply to receive. On the other hand, Tuesdays with Morrie is a book that speaks to a gentler form of directly giving back to elders as they age.
OP, you don't necessarily have to give back to the same people that helped you. You can help others in need, and that good karma always stays.
For example, if you have $100 to spare every month, find charity organizations local to your area, or even international ones like Unbound that help small kids around the world get access to healthy food, basic education and good health.
Also think about people within your network that are struggling - while money solves a lot of problems, sometimes it is time and effort you can also invest instead. If you can think about any of those people try to figure things out and help them move a couple of steps forward in their lives.
If any of those people that helped you do not need any help, wait for the day when they ask for it or look for it. They will be really happy to see you doing something for them on that day.
Every now and again when the time seems right I message people who have helped me.
Especially in the opensource world which can be incredibly hostile to the devs. Just say "thank you for your work".
More than once the reply has been "What do you need?". So I feel it is important to give thanks at those times where you really need nothing from them.
Like so many others have said...do your best to give back and pay it forward. Sometimes all it takes is time to talk.
I personally have had several people who have given me far more help than I ever expected (or possibly deserved). The only thing I can do is attempt to do the same for others.
Time goes fast. Sometimes if you hesitate to give thanks you miss the opportunity.
Saying "thank you" and paying it forward is all the recognition anyone needs.
The many people that helped you were in their own small way trying to make the world a better place through you. They were not expecting anything in return.
> I feel like I owe something more direct to the specific people who shaped my life.
> How do you meaningfully give back to people who helped you early on
Pay it forward is the popular answer here, and a good one. To me, it's a bit limiting and maybe it's why you feel a debt in your life. It's chasing a phantom transaction, to level a balance but there is no score.
I take the approach of "being the person I want to see in the world", and that person is made up of all the people that have shown me kindness, took a chance on me, or otherwise showed grace. It's also made up of the person I wished had been there for me at times. The key is deciding who that person is for you though; some people want to be like the flashy "influencers" that they like to see in the world (on sm) and will act accordantly.
Instead of thinking about how to balance the debt, make the -- sometimes inconvenient -- effort of choosing each day to incorporate the positive parts of the people you feel gratitude toward. Then you end up doing/being many different positive things, big and small, for all types of people -- naturally (not seeking it out) -- the same way many of the people most likely did when they helped you. After all, if 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,' then I would argue that incorporating the positive behaviours or traits of those who have made an impact into who you are becoming is the sincerest form of gratitude.
And money is not tightly coupled to give back, that is main trouble but also it is relief.
In many cases, with adequate humans, you could pay with some service or give some collectibles instead of money.
So main question, you should know human with which you made transaction and better if you have powerful soft skills, so you could hear what is really valuable for your party.
Good example - you could buy some rare tickets and give to your party.
Or in my country once considered good to gift good puppy (for this you sure should know best breeder(s)).
For this is good book "ask your mother", but sure, you should train these skills very seriously, so your party will not got bored while you will negotiate (in some cases better to ask some third party, what is valuable for person).
Good side, with some experience you will become very powerful, so will literally exchange paper clip to house.
PS and don't forget main marketing principle - for success value of what you will give to human should be larger for him than he given to you.
Larger don't mean magnitudes larger, in many cases even one dollar (or one good letter, or good public reply to his post), could be enough, but as I said - value depends on internal values of person, so you should really know him very good.
A lot of mentors helped me when I was completely lost, and at that stage I really had nothing to give back.
Later, I just focused on doing my best, trying to make sure what they taught me actually got used, so their time wasn’t wasted. Every now and then I share some progress with them, and they always seem happy to hear it.
And now I try to help the next group of people who are going through the same phase I once did.
When I was young, one of the things my mentor taught me is that the older people get, the more they think about their legacy. They want to believe they made a lasting difference. So, one of the best gifts you can give them is to say "you made a difference, what you taught me stays with me all the time, and you would never believe me if I told you how many people besides me have benefited from it."
Quit worrying about helping those that helped you in particular. If you have the opportunity and means to express gratitude, then go for it, but otherwise just pay it forward to the next person that comes along that you can help.
I've helped a number of people in what I think are pretty significant ways, and I've thought about what I'd say in response to them asking how they could repay me. All I'd say is, "pay it forward".
I've had plenty of incredible mentors help me without expecting anything in return. And thus, I shall do the same for those that I cross paths with for whom I can help. I suggest you do the same.
I agree with the advice about paying it forward, but it's not mutually exclusive with showing gratitude.
Express gratitude now in the simplest way possible (like an email or a letter) than later after deliberating the best course of action. You can always do something nicer later.
I founded Eksi Sozluk, the most popular social platform from Turkey for the last 25+ years, partly because I was heavily inspired by Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. I sent him an email about the web site when it started becoming popular, thanking him for "all the fish". He was also working on a similar, albeit a more strictly edited, web site called h2g2.com at the time. He never replied to me, and passed away a year later or so. I find comfort in assuming that he had read my email, just didn't bother to reply. I'm so glad that I was able to reach out to him before he was gone.
Similarly, Fred Brooks passed away soon after I asked his permission about quoting him in my book Street Coder. He had replied about how I didn't need his permission for that. The permission thing was a publisher requirement, but it was also my admiration for Fred that made me reach out to him. So, despite his short lesson on fair use, I love that kind of personal interaction with him, and hoping that he felt something like how his contributions affected every random corner of computer science, more than he thought before he passed away. Again, I'm so glad that I reached out to him in time.
When Street Coder came out, I sent signed copies to the people who had helped me along the way. I know they would never read the book as they weren't the target audience. But, I think the book epitomizes the result of their understanding, kindness, and generosity that made an English author out of a high school graduate self-taught programmer from Turkey. It was the perfect greeting card and very well received.
Not saying you should write a book per se, but let them see their impact, show them what you achieved. Do it now.
When I was a 13 year old precocious nerd, I had a friend who was a few years older than me who sort of took me under his wing. I don't know what he ever saw in me, but he took the time to introduce me to FreeBSD and Linux. He helped me on my way to writing my first bits of useful code. Helped me out with networking issues. Introduced me to some great FOSS minds. He quickly became a big shot in the open source community.
I was never good at reciprocating that friendship and kindness. I had a shitty situation at home, I had zero money and very little agency. But I always deeply appreciated all he did for me. I try to pay it forward when I can (and have a soft spot for precocious nerds).
Reading this thread, and writing this reply, is making me realise I need to put in more of an effort. Thank you, @jupiterglimpse, for reminding me of this.
I’m in the same boat. None of the people who helped me expect or need anything I can offer them, but I’m surrounded by people who need a break, need a leg up, need guidance and training.
I take mentees, I continually improve my training materials, I employ and refer my mentees. I accept other people’s referrals. (Put the word out and you’ll get referrals)
I try to comport myself in an honorable manner. I try not to be a dick as much as possible. I try to share the lessons I have learned with people who haven’t yet made my mistakes. (Including children of friends)
I try to be a good example for everyone else to follow.
And at a certain point you have to come to terms with the fact that you’ll never even the scales but you take comfort from the fact that you tried.
As we grow in our careers, the most lasting impact often comes not from what we do ourselves, but from how we help others grow. We all remember the mentors who gave us their time — now it’s our turn to be that person.
It gets harder with seniority. More meetings, less hands-on work, and less time to guide those doing what we used to. But that support is still just as needed — maybe more so.
When we don’t pass on what we’ve learned, teams lose valuable knowledge. Not out of neglect, but because we didn’t make time to teach. That disconnect can quietly erode quality and morale.
So make time. Explain the “why,” not just the “what.” Give feedback that helps people grow. It adds up — and it’s how we leave something meaningful behind.
Give back to others who are in your position as you were when young.
I always go through every cold contact email or message from any university student who messages me out of the blue, simply because a McKinsey Senior Managing Partner took the same chance for me. He even recommended me to the McKinsey recruiting, even though I was ridiculously off-cycle, even though my profile was kinda shit lol, just after one meeting. But because of him, I got my first exposure to whiteshoe recruiting (eventually joined a place where McK people dream of going to). So now I give back the opportunity to anyone who asks me politely for a meeting or for advice.
In my case, it wasn't really about the career path, as much as the "life" path. I have had people constantly helping me, for the last 44 years.
Giving back isn't difficult. I'm a member of an organization that gives me ample opportunity.
I had some great personal relationships, while I was at my various jobs, and some folks gave me real trust and empowerment, but I basically earned that. I appreciated the chances, and usually paid them back in short order.
The other stuff ("life"), was not so advantageous for the helpers. They helped me, because it was their job. I help others, because it's my job.
1. Do favors for them where you can, based on your strengths (and perhaps their weaknesses.)
2. Pay it forward by doing the same for someone younger. That's probably the main thing your helper wants: to continue their help "blood line".
I had a few crucial people boost me in my youth. And I did the same for some younger people. My messaging to them was not to pay me back with favors, but to continue the thing.
But yeah, they've helped me in a pinch a few times and I've really appreciated it.
It's handy to be in a situation where you have a lot more skills and experience and wisdom, but they are much more intelligent.
I've tried to help young struggling people over my career, because I was a young struggling person early in my career who also had help.
Pay it forward, don't pay it back. I don't even want gratitude in most cases and never expect loyalty, I'm satisfied if they turned out successful. I just want them to help others and keep the karma moving forward.
When I do connect again with my helpers and/or those people I've helped, we're suddenly part of a greater family and lineage of helpers than would ever be possible if it was just paid back.
I’ve been in a position to get and give help many times in my life. Paying people back doesn’t do much. Paying people forward creates genuine impact. At points in your life, you will be in a place to help others. Help them. If they pay it forward too, kindness becomes a growing movement.
It’s kind of embarrassing for me when people come out of my past to thank me. Honestly, I don’t always remember what I did. It’s not fun having to say phrases like “well, I’m glad I did that thing I did” when I know it’s meaningful to the other person.
>> While I always express gratitude and try to pay it forward, I often feel there's still an imbalance. I feel like I owe something more direct to the specific people who shaped my life.
This is the beauty and ache that comes with growing up. This is a good thing. I agree with so many others in this thread that the best thing you can do is help others at this point.
You're going to realize that's the position those people that helped you were in: they made a choice to help you.
Tell people you love them. It's very hard for some people to do but those three words are pound-for-pound the most asymmetrically positive words you can tell another.
It's incredible how many folks are saying to pay it forward when OP specifically ask about paying it back (the fwd is addressed in the initial prompt).
Call them, write letters, specifically tell them how they influenced you. My MIL was a teacher and 10 years ago she received a call from a pupil (now a middle age man) and he talk with her about how much she influenced him. It has been 10 years from the call, but it's one of her favourite souvenirs.
I think folks are maybe saying that beyond a “thanks, what you did was really meaningful to me”, there’s often not much else. People who selflessly give are stoked to know you’ve amplified the giving and passed it on, more than any kind of paying it back.
I was told to never give unsolicited advice, and saying thank you out of the blue is a type of unsolicited feedback.
Helping others is also a form of elitism as it assumes you know what is best for others and most of us don't.
It is best to live alone, die alone, thank no one, and stick to yourself. Leave improving the world to the 1%, most of us aren't worth the air we breathe and the smaller the footprint we leave when we die the better humanity will be for it.
Thanks. This week is the anniversary of when my daughter died. I get incredibly depressed. I don't really agree with what I wrote now that I have had a chance to reflect on it.
In my very early twenties I used to seek out a secluded and a then inactive graveyard to do some rumination, or just to unwind. It bordered a marshy water body and the sun going down against it looked good.
All the graves were in states of severe disrepair and worse (vandalism and theft). Except one. There was this grave of a girl child. Going by the date engraved, she would be same age as me, but she had died six years old, or about that age -- my memories are hazy now.
For some reason no one had touched that grave. No vandalism. No theft. Once in a while even flowers.
Dropping someone who did a lot for you - and you may not have realized it at the time but now you do - a note out of the blue is a wonderful thing to do. Especially if it is carefully written. Megabonus for paper note although in the career field you may not know where they are at, so email is best.
I've done it throughout my career for one manager, and few peers. It was wonderfully fun and much appreciated.
I know I commented already, but your posting really just gave me a bit of hope for the human race. For the past several years, I thought humanity had died. Your heart is in the right place. You actually don't need to worry so much about it, because it appears that you're the kind of person who will do the right thing and you'll know when you've crossed that bridge.
Same here - didn't expect this much resonance. All the responses have been so inspiring and made me love humanity even more. Thank you for the kind words. I'll pay it forward.
I asked myself this same question years ago. And then I asked the mentor who had built me up — he told me to do the same for others. And so I did. And now there’s a group of people out there whose lives are better because their careers are better, and if I can take pride in anything that I’ve done in my life, it’s that. (And when they ask, I just tell them to pay it forward.)
Early on, there were people who gave me their time and trust even when I had nothing. That made a big difference in my life.
Now I try to give back in my own way. I focus on doing my work well and being there when someone needs to talk. These aren’t big things, but over time I think they matter. Sometimes just being present and willing to listen means more than we realize.
I remember when I was first learning development this random guy from a PHP forum would skype me and help me with my code. Now that I've been in the industry for a while I give back by helping other people. Although thankfully there are a lot of people already that do that eg. some subreddit dedicated to a programming language.
I'm not good at this at all, but if you do want to thank people that helped you, and let them know what it meant to you, don't leave it too late. I've had one regret after another as people who were significant in my early life died and I didn't get the chance to let them know what they meant to me.
Be kind to people and help others if you can. Spend time with them.
I did pay my grand mother back for course books and things she paid for (the Pell Grant only went so far), but I also tried to visit her when I could. I think the visits meant more than the money. I wish I had had time to visit her more often. Now I can't.
Prove that they were right by making the same attitude yours.
That's the best gratitude to be received. Especially when you are not young anymore.
Proving that what you did was not in vain but it had a good impact on people and it will outlast you.
Nothing you can buy them will give them the same satisfaction as you actually showing them how much you appreciate it by returning to their lives and have a good time and thanking them for what they did and how much it affected your life.
I've been on both sides of this equation, so I'll give my opinion on the giver side.
When I invest my time and work into someone who is struggling, the investment I am making is in the success of that person. The payoff is seeing that person succeed.
As someone with the luck of having mentored many people, it makes me happy to see they are doing well and making an effort to share what they have received (e.g., through volunteering or mentoring others). That's all the gratitude I want.
As a professor myself, your gratitude is more than enough. In some way, your great success is a bit of ours, and that is what makes our success great too: integration.
I would not worry but a mail some time is very welcome indeed.
I am a civil servant (Spain), I cannot legally accept them.
But I have indeed been gifted a Christmas "basket" (with typical Christmas food) and from another student an amazon box with "serrano" produce. I could not refuse them (the first one because it was already brought to my office, the second one had no return address afaicr).
It was very very pleasing, of course. And neither was really expensive.
I think both students hit the exact level of compliment: singular but not extravagant.
Write them a letter. No amount of money or charity will make it feel whole - it might make it worse. But a detailed letter from the heart will close the gap you feel - and the receiver will be extremely happy.
It's the same as the love and work your parents gave to you. You don't have to retrieve them all, just pay forward, be the vehicle of the people who helped you to make the world a better place :)
This reminds me of a passage in Lois McMaster Bujold's A Civil Campaign (Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan is speaking to Mark Vorkosigan):
Her smile tilted. "Mark, you don't pay back your parents. You can't. The debt you owe them gets collected by your children, who hand it down in turn. It's a sort of entailment. Or if you don't have children of the body, it's left as a debt to your common humanity. Or to your God, if you possess or are possessed by one."
"I'm not sure that seems fair."
"The family economy evades calculation in the gross planetary product. It's the only deal I know where, when you give more than you get, you aren't bankrupted—but rather, vastly enriched."
Help out others like they helped you and spend time with them. Every teacher and mentor I've ever had always enjoyed seeing the fruits of their labor. Just grab a lunch or a coffee with them and catch up.
If you are wealthy, perhaps set up a donor advised fund in their name. Let them do more good in the world, give to causes they contribute. Especially as folks age this is a way to get meaning.
the best "payment" is often just updating them on how their help changed your trajectory. a simple message years later saying "that advice you gave me led to X" means everything
also - helping the next person who reminds you of your younger self. pay it forward instead of trying to pay it back directly. most mentors get more satisfaction from seeing the ripple effect than getting something back personally
Oh man, I really wanted to thank Len Johnson, but I moved very far away, then he passed. I mean, I did thank him, but I would have liked to do it again.
I personally, and hope that's true for a lot of people, owe pretty much everything we have accomplished to a lot of open source projects. It's just crazy, I am extremely grateful and try to donate every now and then
I asked something like this about a childhood teacher that really made a difference in my life when I felt particularly bad and alone. I tried to find the guy to thank him years later and learned that he had passed away.
The answer that really moved me is that those people in your life do what they do because it brings them joy, and they do not expect anything in return. That’s what makes people great - their reward is the work. The way to pay them back is to share those values.
Maybe that means giving someone a break, or supporting organizations that support people in similar situations. Think small - help people not non-profits.
For the specific people, perhaps just get in touch with them and start a conversation. Figure out what they are working on and help them in some way. Or not. At the end of the day, their friendship and mentorship was the important thing. Build that relationship where you can.
Focusing on personal favours in exchange for personal favours seems quite archaic. That's literally reinventing the wheel from many thousands of years ago, with, for example, offerings to the dead quite literally seen as payments of debt to them.
I felt this deeply. I don’t have much material to give back, but I recently released a free, open-source AI prompt engine (WFGY) that helps people use LLMs to actually think better — like a silent mentor you can test ideas with.
It’s my way of giving back the tools I wish I had when I was stuck.
I believe we were created by a creator that is a triune god that is constantly self giving. As we were made in the image of God, our deepest joys are found in serving and helping others.
Focus on sacrificing time and resources for others and “pay it forward”.
the best people who helped you never expected anything in return. i believe showing gratitude through genuine friendship is one of the most honest things you can do
I started my career journey straight out of undergrad in a completely new state 700 miles from my undergraduate institution and 1300 miles from where I grew up. I knew no one and knew little. I made my way through job-hopping and hard work.
As I developed my professional network, I worked hard to keep contacts over the years and through many jobs. As I continued my upward trajectory I never forgot those who I met along the way and have hired several of them at multiple companies I have worked at over the years with one following me to 4 total companies over the course of 15+ years. I have done this with several others since.
In addition, I try and help everyone I worked with on current challenges in their current roles and/or trying to aid them in finding new ones; either by exercising my extensive professional network and/or giving them advice from the standpoint of my being a hiring manager.
The most important and impactful item IMO, however, is that I will give ANYONE and EVERYONE, known or not known, help when they ask for anything. From those in HS looking for advice on career and degree programs, to internships, to jobs in the real world. This is what I never had. My father is as blue collar as they come and wasn't able to aid me here; my mother worked relatively menial office and retail jobs and thus they were no help in this way to me. That said, I can help others who may or may not have professional connections through their personal networks to make sure they land in the best possible situation as their professional lives kick off and advance through the ranks.
The only thing I hope is that karma is real and that when my kids are of the age that they may need to leverage my growing professional and personal network that they will be awarded with the same thoughtfulness, timeliness, and kindness I have offered over the years.
A previous coworker once told me she's never met anyone who maintains relationships with old coworkers like I do; cultivating a network that helps to place folks, grow folks, and retain folks. THAT is my recommendation to you: work not only to grow yourself but others. It pays dividends personally and professionally and hopefully will help many others, known and unknown.
I am going to go against the trend in sibling comments here and suggest cash along with a personal note, and as often as appropriate. [Edit: this is offensive?]
You set up the environment to create more people like you the same way those experienced people did. I've found that mentorship like this has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done in my career.
> I often feel there's still an imbalance. I feel like I owe something more
Debt is related to value, which is inherently subjective. In nature, nothing reproducable is one yard long, so we create something and call it a yard, and that first thing becomes the standard. The same is true economically; there's no way to measure what one loaf of bread is inherently worth. Even the time and resources needed to produce it vary depending on countless circumstances. A man with a bread factory will have a much easier time producing one loaf than a homeless man.
The same is true for pain. What's as trivial as a small papercut to one person may be overwhelmingly traumatic to another person, and another can handle losing a limb as easily as losing a pen. Countless variable psychological circumstances prevent us from making any true measurement of debt.
But justice requires that we try our best and move on. So we create economies out of barter and then gold and then bills and then credit. Or we create justice systems that are constantly flowing and changing in their understanding of right and wrong, and also value and loss.
It may be that some people who helped you had no difficulty. I do remember a teacher telling us once to be careful of what we say, because we never know which things we say will stick with someone forever with deep profoundness. Which goes to show that a small off the cuff comment has the very real potential to contribute toward making someone's life significantly better or significantly worse, yet the comment took almost no thought or effort. It cost little.
There's a moment in a play written by Karol Wojtyla in the 1940s, where Adam Chmielowski asks Madame Helena what it costs her to play Ophelia or Lady MacBeth. She replies, "in a way, it costs me all my life. It is a strange ransom; every time I pay it all over again."
I have met many people who are convinced that they have been wronged so grievously that the offender must pay every last penny they have or ever will make, and suffer every second of this life as much as possible, and they hope Hell exists purely so that the offender's suffering may not be relieved by the most torturous death imaginable. Such a person will never be satisfied or happy.
For the little it's worth, my recommendation is to repay people with what good value you justly and reasonably estimate that you owe them for the good they have done to you, and be done with it. If they consider it too much or too little, accomodate them a little, but only within reason. Inversely, if anyone has wronged you, consider their debt paid to you already, since this costs you nothing, whereas exacting justice is tiresome and restless. Besides, forgiving someone's debt to you gives them encouragement to improve, whereas exacting it discourages them and puts them on the defense. That's not to say you shouldn't insist that society as a whole have justice also, for example by calling the police when a legitimate crime has occurred to you or someone else. I'm only talking about the debt in context of two humans.
Why care so much? Those people did it for a reason. They received the same help as you and now they pass the help around.
There is a saying in my language that you always meet the same guy twice in your life.
And everything you do, will return to you.
Be glad you have met so kind people and be nice to the future student or helpseeker you will met. It could be that guys son or daughter.
Balance restored i would say.
Very interestingly, I just got the following WhatsApp message in my College group that kinda resonated with this. Take this as you will:
True Gratitude
How should it be
A warm evening at the Grand Convention Center in New Delhi. Camera flashes were flashing everywhere. Security guards were chatting on walkie-talkies and people in loose shoes were milling around. The hall was packed with ministers, businessmen, dignitaries, and foreign guests. The most powerful men and women of the country were sitting in the first row.
In a corner chair in the third row, a petite woman dressed in a pale cotton sari was sitting. Her presence was not something that anyone would notice. The woman's name was Lakshmi Pichai. Very few people knew who she was. In the spotlight was her son Sundar Pichai - Google's CEO.
Sundar Pichai, a man who had overcome many obstacles to reach this position.
Today, this evening, the Government of India would honor this son of Bharat. His felicitation was a rare event, for which the intelligent minds of the country were brought together. Sundar's gaze seemed to turn to her mother. She did not like being paid attention to. She was sitting quietly with her hands on her lap, but her eyes were filled with peaceful emotion.
As soon as Prime Minister Modi came on the stage, the program began with a round of applause. His speech, filled with very effective words and the passion for fulfilling dreams, hard work and basic values, was very powerful. He mentioned the names of industrialists, scientists and artists, which inspired enthusiasm in the audience. Then his voice came from deep. And he said, Today we are not just honoring Sundar Pichai, we are honoring the life journey of a mother who once gave up her food so that her son could study.
Sundar's heart beat faster. He had never said this publicly. There was absolute silence in the hall. Cameras moved to capture the incident. People looked around.
Modiji quietly got down from the podium, but he did not go towards Sundar, but towards a woman wearing a plain cotton sari sitting in the corner of the third row. Lakshmi was confused. She looked up. Her hands trembled. Everyone seemed to hold their breath. Modiji exclaimed very humbly, This has been possible only because of your sacrifice
And Modiji bent down and touched the feet of, that Mother and offered his respects. The entire hall went silent. The flashes of the cameras flashed. Reporters rushed in. Sundar's eyes welled up with tears. He had never expected this even in his dreams. He had spent many years in Silicon Valley, he had met the presidents, prime ministers, and kings of many nations there. But no one had honored his mother like this. Lakshmi tried to stand. Modiji supported her and gently made her stand in front of the stage in front of everyone present. She resisted but Modiji firmly made her stand. And the audience gave a huge applause. Sundar came to the spot with great joy and stood. As he stood on the stage with his mother, memories of the past flooded his mind.
He remembered his colorful two-room house in Chennai that did not even have a simple refrigerator. Sundar's father worked as an electrical engineer. He used to bring home blueprints and soldering wire. He could not even afford to bring toys for his children. So he used to bring broken radios to the children so that they would open them and learn. Sundar would ask him questions for hours. His mother would teach him mathematics using grains of rice. When Sundar got admission in college, his mother never told anyone that her mother had sold her gold bangles from her wedding. She would just say; "We will make arrangements."
Sundar was a very quiet boy during his school days. He was never aggressive. But he was very attentive. His teacher said, "Sundar's memory is like a mirror. He would memorize a number or a code he had dialed once."
Sometimes his school friends would tease him about his old shoes and the lunch box he brought from home. But he never retaliated against anyone. He would just smile and walk away.
Sometimes at night, the lights would go off at home, and the fans would not work. Sundar and his brother would sleep on the floor and sweat. At that time, his mother would fan them with a cardboard box for several hours without sleeping and then would get up early in the morning for house chores.
When Sundar got a scholarship to study in America, Sundar did not believe that he would be able to go. Because the ticket to America was very expensive. But his mother said you go, I will talk to the bank. But she did not talk to the bank. She sold the last gold jewelry she had.
And today, in a very prestigious hall in Delhi, he was standing on stage with his mother in front of the Prime Minister of India. And for a moment, he forgot about the whole world. He could only feel his mother's slow gentle breath and the warmth of her hand. Journalists published many articles about this emperor of information technology and the Prime Minister.
But Sundar remembered that night when she returned quietly to the hotel, her mother held his hand like a child and said,
"You have not forgotten, that is enough for me."
To this, Sundar replied, "Mom, you have never asked for anything, that is the reason why I will never forget you."
Focus less on those who helped you, and more on helping others.
The first time I went to Defcon, I felt lonely and lost -- it was the first year they had those cool electronic badges, and at the time they were only given out as entrance tokens for an exclusive party that was the talk of the con.
I didn't really "know" anyone there -- like a lot of young hackers, I was part of one of those vBulletin board hacker crews that have been lost to time and I'd exhausted the meager savings I had built up that summer on my plane ticket and hotel room at the Riviera.
A lot of people who had expense accounts were going out to nice places for dinner -- the guy with per diem would get drinks, the guy who had to itemize, and me, the guy trying to get a group together to visit that cool looking dive bar next to Bally's kept getting laughed at and called a newbie...
Then none other than Dan Kaminsky[1] strolls up, tells me he knows who I am (!) and heard I'd been asking about the ninja party, tells me he can't get me in but he knows a room party. Shows me a room next to the pool with a keg in the bathtub, I threw them a five and we sat around talking until late in the night. They had some good tips on cheap places to eat, how to get free drinks at the penny slots, that sort of thing.
And then, every year since that I visited, I did what he did... wander the convention looking for the budget travel crew, the folks who don't do it for a salary and whom this is their reality, and I'd take them on a quest for two dollar hot dogs, show them the little store next to the dive bar where they could stock up on beer and liquor and ice and then disappear into the night like some kind of helpful spirit of the hacker night.
Anyways... long, profuse thank yous are not needed. What you should do is make sure you keep the gates open that were not gatekept for you. Be the person who connects others, in ways that you can't always list on your CV.
[1] Rest in power
Agreed. Over the years I've touched base with folks who helped me out at crucial times and they didn't even remember the incident. Like one time when I was not offered a job after an internship, this senior guy stepped in and made sure they gave me an offer. I thanked him 20 years later for helping me get my start. He just said, "Really? I don't recall that, but glad I could help." So paying it forward is probably the best strategy.
I think in some cases it's because the type of person who would go above & beyond to help just naturally does this as their normal course of business. It is routine behavior for them, and each act is not memorable.
Yep. And we should all strive to be that sort of person.
Exactly - be that person to others, rather than (or in addition to) trying to find your helpers 20 years later.
I had some time in a non-tech gatekeeping position and was able to help a bunch of people, who occasionally thank me for it, and I generally don't remember the details at all, and it's nice and all to be thanked, but I was just doing it because it was the right thing to do. On the other hand I'd be absolutely psyched to hear they were doing it for someone else -- that would put a huge smile on my face.
People who have developed a life pattern of helping other people without any expectation of reciprocal help; often don't remember many of the specific acts of kindness they performed.
His response to your thanking him was perfect.
Yeah, I used to have a similar drive as OP where I thought some sort of grand gesture was in order towards various people in my life. And I can't think of a single time it particularly paid off.
It's not like they go "ah yes, just what I deserve!"
If anything, it puts them in a confusing or uncomfortable position.
I get it now. But if you have people to thank, call them and make it short and sweet. But don't do the big gesture.
I had the pleasure of meeting Dan in person a few times up here in the Bay Area. He was incredibly approachable and always generous with his time. If he sensed your curiosity, he’d give you his full, undivided attention.
Just weeks before he passed, we were trading long Twitter DMs late into the evening—deep, technical conversations spanning topics that were hard to get good information on elsewhere.
After his passing, as I began sharing these stories, I found that so many others had experienced the exact same generosity from him. He had a remarkable way of making people feel seen and supported.
My personal rule: Always try and help people whenever the opportunity arrises (especially people you don't know). It doesn't matter how small the assistance or if you will see this person again. You might be surprised at how it feels and the knock on effects that occur. Once I started looking for opportunities I found them everywhere.
Treating people shitty has no reward, takes zero effort and minimal intelligence.
when mentoring most people its true. but not always true. some asses need to be "karate-sized". this, by definition, requires effort, intelligence, and denial of all passion. of course, you can alternately find a different mentor if resources are not so limited. Otherwise its time to sweep the legs of those who doubt the power of this fully functional linux operating system.
Dan ran up to our table at a con excited to show us all the ssh tricks he was currently into at the time. His excitement and curiosity was contagious. We’d connect at events over the years and he’d always have something interesting to show off. Jet airplane explosion videos ran through MRI software? Check. AR app for the colorblind? Check. Keep DNS safe? Check. Dan was a hacker’s hacker. He was always lifting others up, paying it forward. It’s your duty to do the same. Stay human.
"and then disappear into the night like some kind of helpful spirit of the hacker night."
This is awesome. One interaction like this can change the entire vibe of a group's weekend. Good on you.
I can't speak for those that helped the OP, but I take joy in helping strangers of all sorts.
The only payback would be in passing it on. The act is an attempt to build a culture of openness and collaboration. It is only partially about helping the person that needs it and more about creating a gift to future us.
I want to second this.
The big lesson is recognizing how far a little help goes.
Often it's not much for the person who gave you help, but the result cascades. Nobody is completely self made. We do a lot of work to push ourselves forward but it still relies on other people.
So as you grow, take a chance on others. Don't just look at who they are but who they want to become. The world is full of gates that are extremely difficult to pass through but trivial to hold open for others. It can be making introductions, passing along a resume, or just taking the time to say hi and be friendly.
Recognize that the world is noisy and that these little things help us navigate. We solve big problems by breaking them down into many little problems, so it should be easy to understand how solving little problems makes progress towards solving big ones. Even if you don't know what that big problem is. Just try to make the world a better place. Recognize your struggles and when you can, help others to not face the same issues. You can't solve everything and you won't be perfect, but as you've recognized, a little can go a long way. So do that.
People aren't born wizards. We all start as noobs. Don't forget the journey
"keep the gates open that were not gatekept for you" - really well said re: life philosophy re: living a life of integrity.
I had a similar experience at PET in Ottawa around 2007. I felt so out of place listening to so many interesting talks and seeing all these people that I "knew" from mailing lists and IRC channels. Len Sassaman was really kind to me and included in me in hallway conversations. It was so wild I couldn't get over that rabbi was taking the time to explain things to me and listen to my questions. He definitely was not extending some grand charitable gesture, it was just genuine kindness.
I know I will never have that kind of impact on someone but I hope I have / can continue to pay rabbi back by practicing that level of kindness and consideration to others.
Is "PET" the "Privacy Enhancing Technologies Symposium"?[0]
Looks like it became a "symposium" in 2008[1] if we're discussing the same thing.
The one PETS I went to, Dan wasn't at, but Caspar Bowden joined me in my quest to try to eat lunch before 9pm in a certain EU country and reassured me that my concerns about mass surveillance were rooted in facts and logic in rather disturbing detail.
My impression of academia was that there's two very different sets of people, one I came to term the "hostel people", the other the "hotel people": Hostel people would talk to whoever seemed interesting, hotel people want to know: Who are you, who's your adviser, where did you do your bachelors, where did you do your master's, what did your parents do, did you go to a fancy prep school, did you grow up in a large city or "flyover country", and so on and so forth.
Anyways, in comedy we often talk about "punching up" -- when it comes to building community I feel it's best to do the opposite and "shore up the base" -- focus on building up the next generation.
https://petsymposium.org/2007/
https://petsymposium.org/2008/
That was it. It seemed like a golden age for a lot of different p2p privacy ideas. I don't know what a modern version of the conference would look like.
I think you've done both beautifully.
Carried on the tradition, and credited the "man", and potentially spawned others to do the same. I think that would be have been biggest thank you Dan Kaminsky could have received.
I didn't know Dan personally, but everyone I know who knew him said Dan was good people. I wish I'd gotten to know him.
Piling-on your story: I'd love to know who the guy was I hung out with at Defcon 3. My friends' flights were earlier than mine and I ended up alone in Las Vegas, newly-turned 18 y/o and w/ very little travel experience outside of Ohio.
I ended up hanging out talking with a Unix hacker in his mid-late 20s who struck up a conversation w/ me on the con floor. We hung out the rest of Sunday until my flight left. It made what otherwise would have been a lonely and stressful day a lot of fun.
He gave me an email address to hit him up after the con. It turned out to be fake. I've never been able to find any references to his "name", the domain name on the email, etc. I don't know if he gave me the fake address because of the stigma of a "hacker con"(being worried about real identities, etc). I hope it wasn't because he just didn't want to hear from me again (albeit I do recognize I was pretty insufferable at that age).
If you remember hanging out w/ a long-haired kid on the last Saturday of Defcon 3 I'd love to touch base. (My God... that will be 30 years ago in a couple months.)
Most likely, that was just bad handwriting. It has certainly happened to me that others couldn’t decipher when I meant o or 0. But wasn’t me, I’ve never been to defcon.
Man, I was not looking to get suddenly reminded of how much I miss him. I just finally this year got around to throwing out his luggage and clothes stashed here.
Is this what getting old feels like? Seemed it never happened now it is a regular occurrence. Just as life is getting really good, my friends have started dying off.
That was a great read!
Thanks for sharing, and for your example.
It really all comes down to example.
Monkey see, monkey do.
I never met Dan K., but, from everything I've heard, he was real mensch.
I agree with “fairfax” when he says to focus on helping others.
I would add something to that advice. I would tell you to go back to the people that helped you, and thank them. Tell them what they did, and why it helped you.
That may prove both cathartic and/or encouraging to those who helped you, and spur them on to continue helping others.
I say this because I was a foster child. I aged out of the system. In general, the experience was terrible, but there were a couple families who made a significant impact in my life by things they said and taught.
10 years later, when some of that began to take root in my life, and have a real impact, I went back and thanked them. It was a VERY good thing.
I would say when you have the opportunity, you should do the same.
I still regret not getting those glowing swords or plastic swords that made swoosh sounds.
This is really excellent advice.
And thus culture is borne. #passiton
The ninja party was not even great.
>The ninja party was not even great.
I believe you.
By the time I was cool enough to have my pick of parties, I ended up having a massive panic attack during the crowd crush at the bar at some Rapid7 event and ending up pissing off the person who got me the ticket by leaving after 30 minutes to go buy a Manhattan at some side bar in the casino rather than wait in line 45 minutes for a beer, then spend another 45 minutes trying to wiggle away, only to start wiggling back.
Such a cool post. Also gave me a fresh perspective on DEF CON.
As others have indicated: I think many people who show others "incredible kindness and inspiration" would value you doing the same for others more than anything you could probably do for them. However, simply telling them "you were incredibly kind to me and you are a big reason for me trying to be kind to others" might just make their day.
100% this. If I run into someone and they say "15 years ago you helped me out with X, and as a result these other great things happened" it will literally make my week.
Somebody reached out to me 5 years ago to tell me that a small gesture in high school made a big difference in their life.
We’re both into our 30s now, and I never knew her very well, and hadn’t even seen (or talked to) her since I’d graduated. But I did remember the gesture - and even these 5 years later it still makes me happy to remember her thanking me! Like, it didn’t feel like I was doing anything much at all at the time, and I probably would’ve never even thought about it again.
Your week?! This would brighten my entire month, perhaps even my year!
This. And stay in contact over the years. Everyone needs more friends, and some people really need them. That is worth far more than almost anything you could give/buy.
My partner did that, sending thank-you emails to teachers and mentors that helped shape her path. The responses have been very positive.
I unfortunately did this to two people that were instrumental in my life, except during a manic episode, and while I sprinkled some good stuff in there, I also said some cringe things that I'm really embarrassed about. Rather than try and apologise many years later, I've just let it hang, and hope they appreciated the good things I said and not the odd out of place manic-inspired things.
Hard to speculate, but again, I would assume that many people who show others "incredible kindness and inspiration" accept neurodiversity instead of expecting some sort of apology for it (and might even be willing to talk about such things).
This - and probably asking if they know other people that might benefit of your new experience/skills. If they probably helped you, they are still helping someone else too.
You never heard the phrase "pay it forward?"
The gratitude is good and correct, but they did not do it for any kind of return from you. What they wanted most was for you to turn around and do the same thing for others.
Or not even that, just make good productive use of what they gave you. Merely having a job that does something in any way useful to society and doesn't actively harm others is good enough. But if you do go a bit further and be generous with your own time and consideration to others, even better.
If you feel this way to even write this post, then helping someone else with their problem probably comes naturally already and you don't even have to do anything you don't already naturally like to do and are probably already doing.
I came from a pretty terrible situation, and by the time I was 17, was living on my own, in the local housing authority apartments. In high school, a local businessman, who later became mayor, helped me out. I was on the debate team, and needed a suit, so he took me shopping, and not only bought the suit, but an entire wardrobe and other assistance. We communicated off and on as I went into college etc (he passed a few years later)
He told me that when I was successful, to do the same.
Are you successful and have you done the same?
My best friend is spending 100 days writing hand written letters of love to those who contributed to her life’s journey. There’s humanity and connectedness with writing that no other medium offers both the writer and the reader. Her writing has been received with such love, tears of joy, and mutual appreciation. This includes book authors that she’s found herself meaningfully influenced and inspired by. She’s half way through the project, and I’m sure she’d be happy to connect if you’d like any tips.
One big tip is make sure your hands are ready with the proper pen and hand exercises.
Any chance she's going to write anything about this when she's done? I'd love to read somebody's account of this experience. Very cool idea.
She’s been encouraged to by many people who’ve been moved by her letters including myself. If you want to message me, I can share more when she does.
Also interested; how can I message you?
By the way, I just wanted to also say I love big chunks of this whole comments section; so much pure positivity and human beauty in one place, so soothing, uplifting, and inspiring to me. Thanks hereby to everyone sharing around here how they're consciously recognizing and acting in various amazing ways on the good they received.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQO2XTP7QDw
The hand written letters have mistakes and flow that are perfectly imperfect. Also it looks like despite all their effort, they still went able to get the robot to anywhere near replicating human level writing in even a short note.
At the end of the video a handwriting expert who worked for the FBI to detect fraud had this to say about the project:
> If I didn't know any better, it could be an actual writing by an individual not a machine.
I'm a bit dubious about 'hand writing experts'. Have their skills actually been properly tested in a meaningful way?
the expert in question has written books on the topic, and consulted to US government agencies like CIA. I think he has some credibility.
Credibility and veracity are not the same thing. You can be a world class authority in something that is completely bogus.
this would be a definition of a paradox, how can you be world class authority in something bogus?
There were experts on phrenology.
I have a goal of writing a thank you note a month to people who have helped me. (Reminds me, I need to do that this month.)
The folks I've done this for were pleasantly surprised, both by the note and the contents of it. They'd forgotten how they helped me, which makes sense, because it was a big deal for me but not for them.
A physical note, reminding them of the help they gave you, is a great way to say thanks.
Wow, thank you! this is really impressive! It feels like receiving a surprise ('dividend') from a past good deed. I will start doing this!
Awesome, let me know how it goes! I wish I was more consistent about it; you've inspired me!
I do a similar thing, except I email random people whose content or materials have helped me, or I appreciate.
Everything from professors, musical artists, authors, and professionals.
I never expect to get anything back but it's surprising how often I do.
My thoughts are that, if I did/wrote something that improved someone's life, even a one-word "thanks" would feel really good.
A colleague did this to me some years ago, he thanked me for the mentorship and confidence I gave him that enabled him to apply for a better paying job title.
It felt like rays of sunshine that came at a time were I particularly needed some, it made my week and then some.
This is the right approach. Not just to be grateful in the moment but in the future to be grateful introspectively.
Also, paying it forward is the best way to give back and can create long lasting positive ripples.
Yes! Pay it forward.
Think about what someone did for you in the past (an intro, a kind word, a helpful convo an investment, whatever it was) and try to do it for someone in your life today.
People might not remember things that made such a difference to you and a Thank You will mean a lot. Also maybe if you lost touch with some, maybe now that you are older and without a work or other hierarchy to get in the way, you could be friends. I have seen this a few times.
Pay it Forward. And ask Nothing in Return. If you believe you got "x" then give "10x" and more.
You pay it forward to younger people. I'm sure that's what many of the people who helped you were doing.
+100! I view it as "holding the door open behind me for others", much like people held the door for me.
Help others that were in your situation
“Be the person you needed when you’re younger.” was some advice someone once gave. +1
I tithe. I don't mean that in a religious sense at all, but it's the way I pay my community back for that support. It's also not just in terms of money -- I count time volunteering and mentoring as part of tithing. It's also not repaying the people who helped me directly, but I don't think that's the important part. The way you pay them back is to "pay it forward" and do for others as those people have done for you.
If it's not religious I don't know why you'd call it tithing, that's not what that word means. For example, I do communion, but not in the religious sense, I take shots and order a frozen pizza at the bar.
"Tithe" is not inherently a religious term (it just means "a levy of 1/10th"), despite it mostly being used in a religious context. I use it because there is no good alternative term.
Seems like an appropriate usage of the word to me. How seriously do you take the 1/10th part?
10% is the standard I follow. It's built into my budgeting at that level. There's nothing magical about the 10%, though, it's just what works for me and is easy to compute. But I also follow the "pay yourself first" rule -- I take 10% off the top of every dollar that I receive, and put that aside for future me. Then I set aside 10% of the remainder to pay back my community. So, it's really 9%.
Self-taxation?
Why is the bar serving frozen pizza?
That's how it's stored before they cook it.
Since they invested their time in you, I would suggest that you give back in kind. Call them, send them a note, email/text, etc. It is easier than ever to keep in touch with people now-a-days. Meet them in person if they are open to that and you are able to.
If some of these mentors are retired, I'm sure they would love to hear from a former protege/student/mentee. Watching my dad after his retirement, he always enjoys these interactions with his former colleagues -- talk about their profession or department. Made his day/week in most cases. Retirement can be professionally lonely sometimes.
I've worked directly with several HNW individuals, and the biggest "snub" (real or not) I ever witnessed was a multi-millionaire who sabotaged a mentee's already-disastrous wedding... because he wasn't thanked in the wedding handout.
Dollars meant nothing to him, but control — and meant nothing to this Groom.
>If some of these mentors are retired
Retired people typically rock, so-long as they didn't spend their entire careers being bullies. For several years I lived in a retirement community (as "the help") and the endless dinners/conversations rarely "got old." I mostly enjoyed working with/for elderly retirees, except that most seem to have almost no concept of how much dollars have deflated since their pre-70s/80s/90s gold-backed hayday.
>[things you could do]
Help raise "the next generation" by living well and mentoring your own deserving minds — perhaps have an informal lunch with both your advisor and advisee?
I've actually thought of having a big dinner for all of the managers I've had over the years that were helpful in getting me to where I am today.
That being said, even a handwritten note or phone call to say "I just wanted to say that at X time in my life, you did Y and it was amazing at the time and helped me get to where I am now" goes a LONG way.
I'd do separate one on ones. A big one gives off main character vibes.
Part of the idea is to have them meet each other since they are all fascinating.
(and some of it is, I confess, main character energy)
A handwritten note can be pinned to a cubicle or tucked into a book or whatever. It's tangible, and there's a role for that, and this is it.
[flagged]
I would go a step further, or to the side, than others have indicated in terms of paying it forward, and suggest doing everything in your power to remain humble, and ideally donate your time (and money if you have an extreme surplus) to people who aren't necessarily just in your field. Spend time making real solid friends in your community, and help them with whatever you can in the ways that they've (not you, unless they are looking for help identifying solutions) identified they need help with. I try to make myself available for helping with random computer issues, buggy old WordPress installations, whatever, whenever I realistically can, and just try to be a welcoming presence and friend. In addition to all the stuff in my field I can do, like helping aspiring juniors get a footing.
Send a note. The director of my old lab was essentially a proxy father for me for nearly 10 years, and inspired me to take my life and career more seriously, which I did. Work was not the only thing, but life. I took up running because I looked up to him in my 20s, I remember seeing him and thinking "wow, this guy is in his mid 40s and looks great!" Tell them. His wife told me in secret that it made him so happy he cried.
If it was a long time ago that they helped you, some of them may be old. The very old are often isolated and in need of company and other forms of help. If that sounds like the folks who helped you, I’m sure just checking in with them would mean a lot.
I agree with a lot of the comments that (1) giving heartfelt thanks (which you can do more than once over the years) and (2) being there to help them if they ever need it and (3) paying it forward is the best you can do.
You could throw money at it or try to make big gestures but to the people that helped you just knowing how much it meant to you is the best reward.
"Pay it forwards" is the general advice here, and I think it is generally correct in the macro/social sense.
Although not completely analogous, helping people is similar to gifting. In gifting societies, we don't give to someone with the expectation of a direct benefit in return (A -> B, B -> A). Instead, it's more of a long arc that goes around a corner and returns in an indirect sense (A --> B --> C --> ... --> A).
When you layer time succession in, helping others progresses more like the circle of life. It often doesn't make sense to give back directly — your professors are already at the peak of their careers — but we can give back to society. In doing so, we increase the resonance of the gift that was given.
Often, the role of the receiver is simply to receive. On the other hand, Tuesdays with Morrie is a book that speaks to a gentler form of directly giving back to elders as they age.
OP, you don't necessarily have to give back to the same people that helped you. You can help others in need, and that good karma always stays.
For example, if you have $100 to spare every month, find charity organizations local to your area, or even international ones like Unbound that help small kids around the world get access to healthy food, basic education and good health.
Also think about people within your network that are struggling - while money solves a lot of problems, sometimes it is time and effort you can also invest instead. If you can think about any of those people try to figure things out and help them move a couple of steps forward in their lives.
If any of those people that helped you do not need any help, wait for the day when they ask for it or look for it. They will be really happy to see you doing something for them on that day.
Every now and again when the time seems right I message people who have helped me. Especially in the opensource world which can be incredibly hostile to the devs. Just say "thank you for your work".
More than once the reply has been "What do you need?". So I feel it is important to give thanks at those times where you really need nothing from them.
Like so many others have said...do your best to give back and pay it forward. Sometimes all it takes is time to talk.
I personally have had several people who have given me far more help than I ever expected (or possibly deserved). The only thing I can do is attempt to do the same for others.
Time goes fast. Sometimes if you hesitate to give thanks you miss the opportunity.
Saying "thank you" and paying it forward is all the recognition anyone needs.
The many people that helped you were in their own small way trying to make the world a better place through you. They were not expecting anything in return.
> I feel like I owe something more direct to the specific people who shaped my life.
> How do you meaningfully give back to people who helped you early on
Pay it forward is the popular answer here, and a good one. To me, it's a bit limiting and maybe it's why you feel a debt in your life. It's chasing a phantom transaction, to level a balance but there is no score.
I take the approach of "being the person I want to see in the world", and that person is made up of all the people that have shown me kindness, took a chance on me, or otherwise showed grace. It's also made up of the person I wished had been there for me at times. The key is deciding who that person is for you though; some people want to be like the flashy "influencers" that they like to see in the world (on sm) and will act accordantly.
Instead of thinking about how to balance the debt, make the -- sometimes inconvenient -- effort of choosing each day to incorporate the positive parts of the people you feel gratitude toward. Then you end up doing/being many different positive things, big and small, for all types of people -- naturally (not seeking it out) -- the same way many of the people most likely did when they helped you. After all, if 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,' then I would argue that incorporating the positive behaviours or traits of those who have made an impact into who you are becoming is the sincerest form of gratitude.
Do the same for others, and mention your mentors whenever appropriate.
This is question about life style, not money.
And money is not tightly coupled to give back, that is main trouble but also it is relief.
In many cases, with adequate humans, you could pay with some service or give some collectibles instead of money.
So main question, you should know human with which you made transaction and better if you have powerful soft skills, so you could hear what is really valuable for your party.
Good example - you could buy some rare tickets and give to your party. Or in my country once considered good to gift good puppy (for this you sure should know best breeder(s)).
For this is good book "ask your mother", but sure, you should train these skills very seriously, so your party will not got bored while you will negotiate (in some cases better to ask some third party, what is valuable for person).
Good side, with some experience you will become very powerful, so will literally exchange paper clip to house.
PS and don't forget main marketing principle - for success value of what you will give to human should be larger for him than he given to you. Larger don't mean magnitudes larger, in many cases even one dollar (or one good letter, or good public reply to his post), could be enough, but as I said - value depends on internal values of person, so you should really know him very good.
A lot of mentors helped me when I was completely lost, and at that stage I really had nothing to give back. Later, I just focused on doing my best, trying to make sure what they taught me actually got used, so their time wasn’t wasted. Every now and then I share some progress with them, and they always seem happy to hear it. And now I try to help the next group of people who are going through the same phase I once did.
When I was young, one of the things my mentor taught me is that the older people get, the more they think about their legacy. They want to believe they made a lasting difference. So, one of the best gifts you can give them is to say "you made a difference, what you taught me stays with me all the time, and you would never believe me if I told you how many people besides me have benefited from it."
Talk to the people that helped you! Don't assume they don't need help from you now, because a lot of people put up a brave front
Give to givers.
Beware of takers when attempting to pay-it-forward.
Also beware of the pattern where: some people that give struggle to accept anything.
Quit worrying about helping those that helped you in particular. If you have the opportunity and means to express gratitude, then go for it, but otherwise just pay it forward to the next person that comes along that you can help.
I've helped a number of people in what I think are pretty significant ways, and I've thought about what I'd say in response to them asking how they could repay me. All I'd say is, "pay it forward".
I've had plenty of incredible mentors help me without expecting anything in return. And thus, I shall do the same for those that I cross paths with for whom I can help. I suggest you do the same.
I agree with the advice about paying it forward, but it's not mutually exclusive with showing gratitude.
Express gratitude now in the simplest way possible (like an email or a letter) than later after deliberating the best course of action. You can always do something nicer later.
I founded Eksi Sozluk, the most popular social platform from Turkey for the last 25+ years, partly because I was heavily inspired by Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. I sent him an email about the web site when it started becoming popular, thanking him for "all the fish". He was also working on a similar, albeit a more strictly edited, web site called h2g2.com at the time. He never replied to me, and passed away a year later or so. I find comfort in assuming that he had read my email, just didn't bother to reply. I'm so glad that I was able to reach out to him before he was gone.
Similarly, Fred Brooks passed away soon after I asked his permission about quoting him in my book Street Coder. He had replied about how I didn't need his permission for that. The permission thing was a publisher requirement, but it was also my admiration for Fred that made me reach out to him. So, despite his short lesson on fair use, I love that kind of personal interaction with him, and hoping that he felt something like how his contributions affected every random corner of computer science, more than he thought before he passed away. Again, I'm so glad that I reached out to him in time.
When Street Coder came out, I sent signed copies to the people who had helped me along the way. I know they would never read the book as they weren't the target audience. But, I think the book epitomizes the result of their understanding, kindness, and generosity that made an English author out of a high school graduate self-taught programmer from Turkey. It was the perfect greeting card and very well received.
Not saying you should write a book per se, but let them see their impact, show them what you achieved. Do it now.
When I was a 13 year old precocious nerd, I had a friend who was a few years older than me who sort of took me under his wing. I don't know what he ever saw in me, but he took the time to introduce me to FreeBSD and Linux. He helped me on my way to writing my first bits of useful code. Helped me out with networking issues. Introduced me to some great FOSS minds. He quickly became a big shot in the open source community.
I was never good at reciprocating that friendship and kindness. I had a shitty situation at home, I had zero money and very little agency. But I always deeply appreciated all he did for me. I try to pay it forward when I can (and have a soft spot for precocious nerds).
Reading this thread, and writing this reply, is making me realise I need to put in more of an effort. Thank you, @jupiterglimpse, for reminding me of this.
- You show them your success, even share it with them if you can and thank them for their contributions towards it.
- If they ask or signal for your help you offer it and accept their decline if they don't need it.
- You pay it forward and compound the the exponential growth of their good actions.
I’m in the same boat. None of the people who helped me expect or need anything I can offer them, but I’m surrounded by people who need a break, need a leg up, need guidance and training. I take mentees, I continually improve my training materials, I employ and refer my mentees. I accept other people’s referrals. (Put the word out and you’ll get referrals)
I try to comport myself in an honorable manner. I try not to be a dick as much as possible. I try to share the lessons I have learned with people who haven’t yet made my mistakes. (Including children of friends)
I try to be a good example for everyone else to follow.
And at a certain point you have to come to terms with the fact that you’ll never even the scales but you take comfort from the fact that you tried.
By paying it forward. If you come across someone who is in a similar situation then help them out.
Keep playing it forward.
As we grow in our careers, the most lasting impact often comes not from what we do ourselves, but from how we help others grow. We all remember the mentors who gave us their time — now it’s our turn to be that person.
It gets harder with seniority. More meetings, less hands-on work, and less time to guide those doing what we used to. But that support is still just as needed — maybe more so.
When we don’t pass on what we’ve learned, teams lose valuable knowledge. Not out of neglect, but because we didn’t make time to teach. That disconnect can quietly erode quality and morale.
So make time. Explain the “why,” not just the “what.” Give feedback that helps people grow. It adds up — and it’s how we leave something meaningful behind.
I'd start with saying "thank you" :-)
Absolutely! I always make sure to say thank you, but sometimes I feel like they deserve more than just words.
Give back to others who are in your position as you were when young.
I always go through every cold contact email or message from any university student who messages me out of the blue, simply because a McKinsey Senior Managing Partner took the same chance for me. He even recommended me to the McKinsey recruiting, even though I was ridiculously off-cycle, even though my profile was kinda shit lol, just after one meeting. But because of him, I got my first exposure to whiteshoe recruiting (eventually joined a place where McK people dream of going to). So now I give back the opportunity to anyone who asks me politely for a meeting or for advice.
In my case, it wasn't really about the career path, as much as the "life" path. I have had people constantly helping me, for the last 44 years.
Giving back isn't difficult. I'm a member of an organization that gives me ample opportunity.
I had some great personal relationships, while I was at my various jobs, and some folks gave me real trust and empowerment, but I basically earned that. I appreciated the chances, and usually paid them back in short order.
The other stuff ("life"), was not so advantageous for the helpers. They helped me, because it was their job. I help others, because it's my job.
1. Do favors for them where you can, based on your strengths (and perhaps their weaknesses.)
2. Pay it forward by doing the same for someone younger. That's probably the main thing your helper wants: to continue their help "blood line".
I had a few crucial people boost me in my youth. And I did the same for some younger people. My messaging to them was not to pay me back with favors, but to continue the thing.
But yeah, they've helped me in a pinch a few times and I've really appreciated it.
It's handy to be in a situation where you have a lot more skills and experience and wisdom, but they are much more intelligent.
I've tried to help young struggling people over my career, because I was a young struggling person early in my career who also had help.
Pay it forward, don't pay it back. I don't even want gratitude in most cases and never expect loyalty, I'm satisfied if they turned out successful. I just want them to help others and keep the karma moving forward.
When I do connect again with my helpers and/or those people I've helped, we're suddenly part of a greater family and lineage of helpers than would ever be possible if it was just paid back.
I’ve been in a position to get and give help many times in my life. Paying people back doesn’t do much. Paying people forward creates genuine impact. At points in your life, you will be in a place to help others. Help them. If they pay it forward too, kindness becomes a growing movement.
It’s kind of embarrassing for me when people come out of my past to thank me. Honestly, I don’t always remember what I did. It’s not fun having to say phrases like “well, I’m glad I did that thing I did” when I know it’s meaningful to the other person.
Pay it forward.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_It_Forward_(film)
>> While I always express gratitude and try to pay it forward, I often feel there's still an imbalance. I feel like I owe something more direct to the specific people who shaped my life.
This is the beauty and ache that comes with growing up. This is a good thing. I agree with so many others in this thread that the best thing you can do is help others at this point.
You're going to realize that's the position those people that helped you were in: they made a choice to help you.
Tell people you love them. It's very hard for some people to do but those three words are pound-for-pound the most asymmetrically positive words you can tell another.
It's incredible how many folks are saying to pay it forward when OP specifically ask about paying it back (the fwd is addressed in the initial prompt).
Call them, write letters, specifically tell them how they influenced you. My MIL was a teacher and 10 years ago she received a call from a pupil (now a middle age man) and he talk with her about how much she influenced him. It has been 10 years from the call, but it's one of her favourite souvenirs.
I think folks are maybe saying that beyond a “thanks, what you did was really meaningful to me”, there’s often not much else. People who selflessly give are stoked to know you’ve amplified the giving and passed it on, more than any kind of paying it back.
I was told to never give unsolicited advice, and saying thank you out of the blue is a type of unsolicited feedback.
Helping others is also a form of elitism as it assumes you know what is best for others and most of us don't.
It is best to live alone, die alone, thank no one, and stick to yourself. Leave improving the world to the 1%, most of us aren't worth the air we breathe and the smaller the footprint we leave when we die the better humanity will be for it.
I hope you are doing okay. Take care.
Thanks. This week is the anniversary of when my daughter died. I get incredibly depressed. I don't really agree with what I wrote now that I have had a chance to reflect on it.
Thanks for your words.
In my very early twenties I used to seek out a secluded and a then inactive graveyard to do some rumination, or just to unwind. It bordered a marshy water body and the sun going down against it looked good.
All the graves were in states of severe disrepair and worse (vandalism and theft). Except one. There was this grave of a girl child. Going by the date engraved, she would be same age as me, but she had died six years old, or about that age -- my memories are hazy now.
For some reason no one had touched that grave. No vandalism. No theft. Once in a while even flowers.
Once in a while humanity does redeem itself.
For what it is worth, thank you for sending this to me yesterday. It meant more than you can know.
From your post it seemed that you were in pain.
I can't begin to fathom the feeling of a loss of one's child. Deeply sorry that you (or anyone else) had to go through that.
Wishing you well.
Dropping someone who did a lot for you - and you may not have realized it at the time but now you do - a note out of the blue is a wonderful thing to do. Especially if it is carefully written. Megabonus for paper note although in the career field you may not know where they are at, so email is best.
I've done it throughout my career for one manager, and few peers. It was wonderfully fun and much appreciated.
Great Ask HN question
I know I commented already, but your posting really just gave me a bit of hope for the human race. For the past several years, I thought humanity had died. Your heart is in the right place. You actually don't need to worry so much about it, because it appears that you're the kind of person who will do the right thing and you'll know when you've crossed that bridge.
Same here - didn't expect this much resonance. All the responses have been so inspiring and made me love humanity even more. Thank you for the kind words. I'll pay it forward.
I asked myself this same question years ago. And then I asked the mentor who had built me up — he told me to do the same for others. And so I did. And now there’s a group of people out there whose lives are better because their careers are better, and if I can take pride in anything that I’ve done in my life, it’s that. (And when they ask, I just tell them to pay it forward.)
Early on, there were people who gave me their time and trust even when I had nothing. That made a big difference in my life.
Now I try to give back in my own way. I focus on doing my work well and being there when someone needs to talk. These aren’t big things, but over time I think they matter. Sometimes just being present and willing to listen means more than we realize.
Always keep in touch with them.
Create a private network with them via whatsapp or community
Understand what these people are upto now and think how you can help them with your knowledge
Share current trends with them, current developments with them as they might be unaware about contemporary advancements
Share your career growth with them
These above basic humane things that you can do to your mentors!
I remember when I was first learning development this random guy from a PHP forum would skype me and help me with my code. Now that I've been in the industry for a while I give back by helping other people. Although thankfully there are a lot of people already that do that eg. some subreddit dedicated to a programming language.
I'm not good at this at all, but if you do want to thank people that helped you, and let them know what it meant to you, don't leave it too late. I've had one regret after another as people who were significant in my early life died and I didn't get the chance to let them know what they meant to me.
Be kind to people and help others if you can. Spend time with them.
I did pay my grand mother back for course books and things she paid for (the Pell Grant only went so far), but I also tried to visit her when I could. I think the visits meant more than the money. I wish I had had time to visit her more often. Now I can't.
For your mentors? Write them a letter expressing your gratitude.
For yourself? Determine how you can be that person for others.
Find opportunities to say “thank you” to those who helped you, and then pass it on to the next generation.
The baton is passed forward, not backward.
Prove that they were right by making the same attitude yours.
That's the best gratitude to be received. Especially when you are not young anymore. Proving that what you did was not in vain but it had a good impact on people and it will outlast you.
Spend time with them.
Nothing you can buy them will give them the same satisfaction as you actually showing them how much you appreciate it by returning to their lives and have a good time and thanking them for what they did and how much it affected your life.
I've been on both sides of this equation, so I'll give my opinion on the giver side.
When I invest my time and work into someone who is struggling, the investment I am making is in the success of that person. The payoff is seeing that person succeed.
As someone with the luck of having mentored many people, it makes me happy to see they are doing well and making an effort to share what they have received (e.g., through volunteering or mentoring others). That's all the gratitude I want.
As a professor myself, your gratitude is more than enough. In some way, your great success is a bit of ours, and that is what makes our success great too: integration. I would not worry but a mail some time is very welcome indeed.
This is a lofty sentiment, and I mean that in a complimentary way, but how might someone like you respond to a cash gift, if you can expand?
I am a civil servant (Spain), I cannot legally accept them.
But I have indeed been gifted a Christmas "basket" (with typical Christmas food) and from another student an amazon box with "serrano" produce. I could not refuse them (the first one because it was already brought to my office, the second one had no return address afaicr).
It was very very pleasing, of course. And neither was really expensive.
I think both students hit the exact level of compliment: singular but not extravagant.
ETA: thanks for the compliment.
Perhaps a bit taboo, but I always liked Kevin Spacey's take on this:
"If you’ve done well, it’s your obligation to spend a good portion of your time sending the elevator back down."
Help others in the same way they helped you. Pull people up.
Write them a letter. No amount of money or charity will make it feel whole - it might make it worse. But a detailed letter from the heart will close the gap you feel - and the receiver will be extremely happy.
It's the same as the love and work your parents gave to you. You don't have to retrieve them all, just pay forward, be the vehicle of the people who helped you to make the world a better place :)
This reminds me of a passage in Lois McMaster Bujold's A Civil Campaign (Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan is speaking to Mark Vorkosigan):
Her smile tilted. "Mark, you don't pay back your parents. You can't. The debt you owe them gets collected by your children, who hand it down in turn. It's a sort of entailment. Or if you don't have children of the body, it's left as a debt to your common humanity. Or to your God, if you possess or are possessed by one."
"I'm not sure that seems fair."
"The family economy evades calculation in the gross planetary product. It's the only deal I know where, when you give more than you get, you aren't bankrupted—but rather, vastly enriched."
Beautiful!
Help out others like they helped you and spend time with them. Every teacher and mentor I've ever had always enjoyed seeing the fruits of their labor. Just grab a lunch or a coffee with them and catch up.
One thing about the great advice to "pay it forward" is that it only applies to good things.
If someone has wronged you, you don't wrong someone else in turn.
But you can try to help others not be wronged in that way.
If you are wealthy, perhaps set up a donor advised fund in their name. Let them do more good in the world, give to causes they contribute. Especially as folks age this is a way to get meaning.
1. Make a list of those who helped you
2. Get their contact details
3. Send them money.
Touching base to say thanks for the support during younger, harder days is nice, but nothing talks quite like a cash gift when it comes to thanks.
I'd like to see some explanation from whoever has downvoted this straightforward proposal.
the best "payment" is often just updating them on how their help changed your trajectory. a simple message years later saying "that advice you gave me led to X" means everything
also - helping the next person who reminds you of your younger self. pay it forward instead of trying to pay it back directly. most mentors get more satisfaction from seeing the ripple effect than getting something back personally
Oh man, I really wanted to thank Len Johnson, but I moved very far away, then he passed. I mean, I did thank him, but I would have liked to do it again.
You have to pay it forward.
Although nowadays there's just so much material and resources available to learn on your own compared to years before.
Let them know that their example made you kind, inspirational and invested in the success of those who are like you were all this time ago.
> Ask HN: How do I give back to people helped me when I was young and had nothing?
Give also to young people who are young and have "nothing".
Since you are already paying it forward, I would write a thank you message to those people. Tell them how their help improved your life.
Contribute financially to open source projects.
I personally, and hope that's true for a lot of people, owe pretty much everything we have accomplished to a lot of open source projects. It's just crazy, I am extremely grateful and try to donate every now and then
I think if someone helped you, just try to let them know how much it meant. Then pay it forward to someone who needs it.
I asked something like this about a childhood teacher that really made a difference in my life when I felt particularly bad and alone. I tried to find the guy to thank him years later and learned that he had passed away.
The answer that really moved me is that those people in your life do what they do because it brings them joy, and they do not expect anything in return. That’s what makes people great - their reward is the work. The way to pay them back is to share those values.
Maybe that means giving someone a break, or supporting organizations that support people in similar situations. Think small - help people not non-profits.
For the specific people, perhaps just get in touch with them and start a conversation. Figure out what they are working on and help them in some way. Or not. At the end of the day, their friendship and mentorship was the important thing. Build that relationship where you can.
Just pay it forward. Give back to those around you in immediate need instead. Like politics, charity should be local.
I feel like this question itself is a gift.
Be good to your neighbor and try to mentor the motivated. Inculcate the same lessons they gave you in others.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/What_Men_Live_By
Focusing on personal favours in exchange for personal favours seems quite archaic. That's literally reinventing the wheel from many thousands of years ago, with, for example, offerings to the dead quite literally seen as payments of debt to them.
Just say words. It's a good start. I have waited too long and a lot of those people are dead now, alas.
I felt this deeply. I don’t have much material to give back, but I recently released a free, open-source AI prompt engine (WFGY) that helps people use LLMs to actually think better — like a silent mentor you can test ideas with. It’s my way of giving back the tools I wish I had when I was stuck.
Do what they did for you to someone else. Then say thank you and tell them about what inspired you to do.
Just call them, invite them to a drink/dinner and tell them what you fell. You'll make their day.
what seems to have worked for me:
- speak to them frequently and deliberately remind them of how immense their help has been to me. i try to share important updates with them as well.
- gifts
- paying it forward. easiest, kind of natural responsibility though (even if no one helped you). hence least emphasized as a way to show gratitude.
hello,
why not somehow try to "replicate that experience" you had?
eg. help / mentor young(er) people who have "nothing" / are early in their careers right now!?
this is what i at least tried to do ... :)
just my 0.02€
As an older engineer:
I give my help. I don't lease it. I don't rent it. I don't keep an IOU sheet.
It is given freely, with no expectation other than that it might help the individual involved.
I hope some of them go on to be better than me, because they got to rest on my shoulders for a moment before finding the next giant's to climb on.
I'm happy to hear when they do what I do, and help young engineers, but I have no expectation of that. Nor should I.
What I give as a mentor, is given freely. No strings attached.
You find someone young who needs the same chances that were given to you.
"Pay it forward" I think is the saying.
I believe we were created by a creator that is a triune god that is constantly self giving. As we were made in the image of God, our deepest joys are found in serving and helping others.
Focus on sacrificing time and resources for others and “pay it forward”.
Help others until the help you've received means nothing. :)
Maybe talk with them. If they are in need, then do your thing.
the best people who helped you never expected anything in return. i believe showing gratitude through genuine friendship is one of the most honest things you can do
Have you tried mentoring someone else perhaps? Pass it on
The answer is in your question:
Help those that are young and have nothing.
Mentorship. Angel Investing. Supporting your friends.
Try helping more people just like someone helped you!
I started my career journey straight out of undergrad in a completely new state 700 miles from my undergraduate institution and 1300 miles from where I grew up. I knew no one and knew little. I made my way through job-hopping and hard work.
As I developed my professional network, I worked hard to keep contacts over the years and through many jobs. As I continued my upward trajectory I never forgot those who I met along the way and have hired several of them at multiple companies I have worked at over the years with one following me to 4 total companies over the course of 15+ years. I have done this with several others since.
In addition, I try and help everyone I worked with on current challenges in their current roles and/or trying to aid them in finding new ones; either by exercising my extensive professional network and/or giving them advice from the standpoint of my being a hiring manager.
The most important and impactful item IMO, however, is that I will give ANYONE and EVERYONE, known or not known, help when they ask for anything. From those in HS looking for advice on career and degree programs, to internships, to jobs in the real world. This is what I never had. My father is as blue collar as they come and wasn't able to aid me here; my mother worked relatively menial office and retail jobs and thus they were no help in this way to me. That said, I can help others who may or may not have professional connections through their personal networks to make sure they land in the best possible situation as their professional lives kick off and advance through the ranks.
The only thing I hope is that karma is real and that when my kids are of the age that they may need to leverage my growing professional and personal network that they will be awarded with the same thoughtfulness, timeliness, and kindness I have offered over the years.
A previous coworker once told me she's never met anyone who maintains relationships with old coworkers like I do; cultivating a network that helps to place folks, grow folks, and retain folks. THAT is my recommendation to you: work not only to grow yourself but others. It pays dividends personally and professionally and hopefully will help many others, known and unknown.
You don't. You pass it forward
I am going to go against the trend in sibling comments here and suggest cash along with a personal note, and as often as appropriate. [Edit: this is offensive?]
Pay it forward
You set up the environment to create more people like you the same way those experienced people did. I've found that mentorship like this has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done in my career.
Think about something they like and get a nice version of it for them. Like if they like pens, get them a nice one with a note engraved
Pay it forward
buy their books - everything i have learned has been by well-written, informative books
Public honors.
Mention them on your social media.
Take care of your parents!
I feel like I owe something more direct to the specific people who shaped my life.
If you owe something, it was not a gift.
If you give something with the expectation of something in return, it is also not a gift.
It's fine to give gifts to people whose cup is full, but it probably won't change their life.
With time, the value from those interactions you actually perceive may not be what you thought you got at the time...or now.
Good luck.
old men plant trees so that young men can sit in the shade
Pay it forward.
Pay it forward.
Pay it forward.
Pay it forward!
Pay it forward
Pay it forward
Pass it on.
Money?
Tell them.
> I often feel there's still an imbalance. I feel like I owe something more
Debt is related to value, which is inherently subjective. In nature, nothing reproducable is one yard long, so we create something and call it a yard, and that first thing becomes the standard. The same is true economically; there's no way to measure what one loaf of bread is inherently worth. Even the time and resources needed to produce it vary depending on countless circumstances. A man with a bread factory will have a much easier time producing one loaf than a homeless man.
The same is true for pain. What's as trivial as a small papercut to one person may be overwhelmingly traumatic to another person, and another can handle losing a limb as easily as losing a pen. Countless variable psychological circumstances prevent us from making any true measurement of debt.
But justice requires that we try our best and move on. So we create economies out of barter and then gold and then bills and then credit. Or we create justice systems that are constantly flowing and changing in their understanding of right and wrong, and also value and loss.
It may be that some people who helped you had no difficulty. I do remember a teacher telling us once to be careful of what we say, because we never know which things we say will stick with someone forever with deep profoundness. Which goes to show that a small off the cuff comment has the very real potential to contribute toward making someone's life significantly better or significantly worse, yet the comment took almost no thought or effort. It cost little.
There's a moment in a play written by Karol Wojtyla in the 1940s, where Adam Chmielowski asks Madame Helena what it costs her to play Ophelia or Lady MacBeth. She replies, "in a way, it costs me all my life. It is a strange ransom; every time I pay it all over again."
I have met many people who are convinced that they have been wronged so grievously that the offender must pay every last penny they have or ever will make, and suffer every second of this life as much as possible, and they hope Hell exists purely so that the offender's suffering may not be relieved by the most torturous death imaginable. Such a person will never be satisfied or happy.
For the little it's worth, my recommendation is to repay people with what good value you justly and reasonably estimate that you owe them for the good they have done to you, and be done with it. If they consider it too much or too little, accomodate them a little, but only within reason. Inversely, if anyone has wronged you, consider their debt paid to you already, since this costs you nothing, whereas exacting justice is tiresome and restless. Besides, forgiving someone's debt to you gives them encouragement to improve, whereas exacting it discourages them and puts them on the defense. That's not to say you shouldn't insist that society as a whole have justice also, for example by calling the police when a legitimate crime has occurred to you or someone else. I'm only talking about the debt in context of two humans.
Why care so much? Those people did it for a reason. They received the same help as you and now they pass the help around. There is a saying in my language that you always meet the same guy twice in your life. And everything you do, will return to you. Be glad you have met so kind people and be nice to the future student or helpseeker you will met. It could be that guys son or daughter. Balance restored i would say.
pay forward
Like others have already said, pass it on.
Very interestingly, I just got the following WhatsApp message in my College group that kinda resonated with this. Take this as you will:
True Gratitude
How should it be
A warm evening at the Grand Convention Center in New Delhi. Camera flashes were flashing everywhere. Security guards were chatting on walkie-talkies and people in loose shoes were milling around. The hall was packed with ministers, businessmen, dignitaries, and foreign guests. The most powerful men and women of the country were sitting in the first row.
In a corner chair in the third row, a petite woman dressed in a pale cotton sari was sitting. Her presence was not something that anyone would notice. The woman's name was Lakshmi Pichai. Very few people knew who she was. In the spotlight was her son Sundar Pichai - Google's CEO.
Sundar Pichai, a man who had overcome many obstacles to reach this position. Today, this evening, the Government of India would honor this son of Bharat. His felicitation was a rare event, for which the intelligent minds of the country were brought together. Sundar's gaze seemed to turn to her mother. She did not like being paid attention to. She was sitting quietly with her hands on her lap, but her eyes were filled with peaceful emotion.
As soon as Prime Minister Modi came on the stage, the program began with a round of applause. His speech, filled with very effective words and the passion for fulfilling dreams, hard work and basic values, was very powerful. He mentioned the names of industrialists, scientists and artists, which inspired enthusiasm in the audience. Then his voice came from deep. And he said, Today we are not just honoring Sundar Pichai, we are honoring the life journey of a mother who once gave up her food so that her son could study.
Sundar's heart beat faster. He had never said this publicly. There was absolute silence in the hall. Cameras moved to capture the incident. People looked around. Modiji quietly got down from the podium, but he did not go towards Sundar, but towards a woman wearing a plain cotton sari sitting in the corner of the third row. Lakshmi was confused. She looked up. Her hands trembled. Everyone seemed to hold their breath. Modiji exclaimed very humbly, This has been possible only because of your sacrifice
And Modiji bent down and touched the feet of, that Mother and offered his respects. The entire hall went silent. The flashes of the cameras flashed. Reporters rushed in. Sundar's eyes welled up with tears. He had never expected this even in his dreams. He had spent many years in Silicon Valley, he had met the presidents, prime ministers, and kings of many nations there. But no one had honored his mother like this. Lakshmi tried to stand. Modiji supported her and gently made her stand in front of the stage in front of everyone present. She resisted but Modiji firmly made her stand. And the audience gave a huge applause. Sundar came to the spot with great joy and stood. As he stood on the stage with his mother, memories of the past flooded his mind.
He remembered his colorful two-room house in Chennai that did not even have a simple refrigerator. Sundar's father worked as an electrical engineer. He used to bring home blueprints and soldering wire. He could not even afford to bring toys for his children. So he used to bring broken radios to the children so that they would open them and learn. Sundar would ask him questions for hours. His mother would teach him mathematics using grains of rice. When Sundar got admission in college, his mother never told anyone that her mother had sold her gold bangles from her wedding. She would just say; "We will make arrangements."
Sundar was a very quiet boy during his school days. He was never aggressive. But he was very attentive. His teacher said, "Sundar's memory is like a mirror. He would memorize a number or a code he had dialed once."
Sometimes his school friends would tease him about his old shoes and the lunch box he brought from home. But he never retaliated against anyone. He would just smile and walk away.
Sometimes at night, the lights would go off at home, and the fans would not work. Sundar and his brother would sleep on the floor and sweat. At that time, his mother would fan them with a cardboard box for several hours without sleeping and then would get up early in the morning for house chores.
When Sundar got a scholarship to study in America, Sundar did not believe that he would be able to go. Because the ticket to America was very expensive. But his mother said you go, I will talk to the bank. But she did not talk to the bank. She sold the last gold jewelry she had.
And today, in a very prestigious hall in Delhi, he was standing on stage with his mother in front of the Prime Minister of India. And for a moment, he forgot about the whole world. He could only feel his mother's slow gentle breath and the warmth of her hand. Journalists published many articles about this emperor of information technology and the Prime Minister.
But Sundar remembered that night when she returned quietly to the hotel, her mother held his hand like a child and said, "You have not forgotten, that is enough for me."
To this, Sundar replied, "Mom, you have never asked for anything, that is the reason why I will never forget you."
Transcription Jayant Joshi.
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