I've been invited so two similar events over the past couple decades and one company I worked for had standing weekly meetings with Google. All I can say is my experience is pretty much they same, they lure you in wanting info and to help you, but don't give any answers and just keep wanting more info. In the end they didn't unblock us and in my opinion built a lot of what we shared into their systems. It was a knowledge theft exercise in my opinion, was NOT in any way meant to help anyone but Google.
in fact the standing weekly meetings were cancelled after we got to the point where the entire half hour was consumed with going over all the AIs their end had they we were still waiting for answers on. Since we never got any, we cancelled the meetings as wasteful.
This article doesn't give any specifics on the "shadow-banning." I am totally willing to believe in any douchebaggery anyone reports from Google, but I (as anyone should) require specifics to give any credence to the writer's claims.
This "article" fails to answer the first questions you'd have. For example, how did Google single you out for this invitation? The article asserts that it was all "shadow-banned" site owners, but then says the Google employee denied all shadow-banning. So how was the invitation phrased?
I'm not even going to waste time breaking down the rest of the empty bullshit in this article. It's unfortunate, because I'll bet every claim made against Google is true. But I'm not going to give a single one credence without specifics. If you're too lazy to provide those, you don't deserve support.
From a quick search it seems you get invited to these things by filling in a feedback form for Google.
As for shadowbanning, well, it doesn't take much to remember Google is a search platform and then to match that with his complaints about his site getting deranked.
Maybe that could have been made clearer, but surely if I could figure that out you could too.
Nobody should be expected to run around doing searches to support the assertions in a random article. Why would you serve as an unpaid tool?
Anybody on here can speculate as to what Google does to this or that Web site; but if you're going to write an article claiming it as fact, you need to support it.
"It was then I realized this wasn’t our funeral, it was Google’s."
What Google seems to be doing is banning aggregation sites. There was a previous posting today by someone who was complaining about low ranking for his book review and link farm site. Google wants to be the only aggregator. Why fan out queries to another level of aggregator?
A list of the 20 sites he's talking about would help. How many of those are aggregation sites?
The whole article is pretty confusing to me. It's never made at all clear what this event was supposed to be about or why this specific set of people were there. Presumably it wasn't "invite people who run 'shadowbanned' sites" when they don't acknowledge that there is such a thing. So what was it, then?
It's not confusing; it's totally unsupported bullshit.
The author claims that a bunch of "shadow-banned" site owners were invited to some summit, but couldn't be bothered to say how this invitation was phrased or delivered. How were the recipients identified, especially when he says the Google person claimed that no such sites existed?
People tend to create value inherently. If they are not receiving the benefit of that then it would most appropriately be described as theft with the aid of blind regulators.
It could be true for things that could only be "used" once. But I don't think that it's a valid point at all times.
Recently, for example, I've made a little "Linux for dummies" zine, and put it on my shelf.
Sometimes guests take it, read it, and put it back.
Technically, all of them get to read it for free, through no additional cost to me, because this zine already existed before they knew they wanted to "use it", and this zine will continue to exist after they "use it".
Capitalism and thief are different things. We should stop using the first to justify the last. If this people was lured to work for free, this is not capitalism.
Depending on who pays, the incentives are different. In a socialist society, where some things are funded by the government, those things are generally much more aligned with the interest of the public than in capitalism, where most money wins.
So we need to persuade the NSA to finance our new search engine? Or should we turn to Putin or Xi? The European surveillance services would not be able to
You're surrounded by and typing on valuable goods and services that you received in exchange for a store of value called money, which you received by providing value to someone else.
"Empty too, was the rest of Google’s behemoth campus. Their numerous buildings are surrounded by beautiful, park-like pathways with no one to enjoy them but the groundskeepers. They follow the paths with their lawnmowers, weaving between softly shaded employee parking lots, with no one to park in them."
Without comment on the rest of the article, I can personally confirm that this particular statement is disinformation. I was there, in person, at the Google Mountain View campus, on October 29, 2024 visiting as a representative of an external partner (and as a long ago former employee). I did not attend this event, but I was nearby the entire day. Throughout the day the building I was in was very busy, with many people coming and going and working at desks. At lunchtime, we walked to the Google cafe a few buildings away which was brimming with people, to the point where our group of three struggled to find a table to eat at.
Of course there may have been buildings on campus which were empty or sparsely utilized. But the area I was in (western end of Charleston Rd) was anything but empty. In the future, the author should try to stick to the truth when making their point.
What seems to happen is that after there is an initial surplus of value or benefit in any business - perhaps some of it going to customers, some of it going to service users, some of it going to employees, etc. - eventually someone in charge identifies and implements a way to tap that benefit and turn it into money that is absorbed by the company.
And with a monopoly, some of the surplus simply vanishes as deadweight loss.
Google makes nearly $500K in profit (out of $1.6M in revenue) per employee. It seems possible that they could potentially bring back some of the old work environment, or maybe even reduce overall encrapification, but there is little incentive to do so.
I'd like to think so. If Google didn't provide some useful goods (Pixel phones) or services (Google Cloud) then it would be a purely financial company.
For a ton of people, the ads Google sells are very useful. The ads make their products visible. It's weird (do you often click on ads?) but the effect exists, some customers do come this way. Businesses, big and small, readily buy ads.
This is what powers their empire, not selling phones or even GCE. Search is but a delivery vehicle of ads, maybe one of the most powerful but not the only one.
(Disclaimer: I don't buy or sell ads, and run an ad blocker in my browsers.)
This is what I noticed to when I had to disable the ad blocker on some sites.
The ads are annoying because they break the reading flow (I think it is called parallax when the ad moves with your scrolling, but slower - I hate that).
My brain just compensates to keep z smooth reading peace but I have no idea what the ad is about.
What exactly are these websites, why do their webmasters have a special relationship as "Google Web Creators," and how is it so many of them were coincidentally shadowbanned? This article is interesting about the state of Google as seen by a visit to the campus and at a dismal event, but I still don't have a clear idea who the people let down by Google are.
Wow, this is impressively brutal. I don't know anything about search or ranking these days, but the way insist on putting an AI summary at the top of every page definitely is good evidence for the theory that Google doesn't give a damn about the people doing all the actual work that makes a search engine valuable.
They must be planning on milking what value can be had from the web to which they used to be the entryway, and clash with OpenAI, MS and Apple over AI trained on curated datasets, to layer some semblance of a business model over it. And I say milking because the relationship to websites is now parasitic for the most part.
I started using Google search like ChatGPT, for asking questions and reading the AI responses. In many simple cases, it suffices.
As an actual search engine, Google search is still not bad, but now one of the many, without a large edge it used to have; I try it when DDG does not bring results I want, or I query DDG when Google does not bring results I want.
If you are doing this, I suggest giving the Perplexity app a try. It's very fast, convenient, and accurate. It was Perplexity, and not ChatGPT that reduced my Google usage.
Google business model is mostly ads (~80% revenue) and majority of their ads are from google search (~60% of revenue). This allowed them to subsidise many other projects in the past.
These days they have a lot of competition in ads scene (meta, tiktok, x, reddit, amazon) and also other are gunning at google search: perplexity, searchGPT, bing. Apple choosing OpenAI for Apple Intelligence. Amazon teaming with Anthropic for Alexa. On top of that antitrust in EU and USA.
That's the reason google is killing lots of projects or loosing on many fronts these days or they aggressively try to monetise other projects (Youtube, Manifest V3.0). If they don't win in this AI race or diversify revenue/business model enshitification will continue.
I don't know how accurate this writeup is, but the characterization of behavior was eerily familiar.
If they'd been talking about a certain other place that I know, I would've wanted to shout "Exactly!", and would've implicitly believed that's what they saw.
There's a type who exhibits a combination of arrogance and self-interested fixation. There's no malice, and they aren't sociopaths, and they don't think of themselves as jerks. But they have a sense of superiority and entitlement, and can be aggressively, er, norms-bending, to get what they want.
Some environments seem to either attract them, or to nurture them. It's something unclear to me about the individual environment, not the external kind of organization (e.g., one high-prestige organization has a lot of it, but another high-prestige organization of the same kind doesn't).
I could attribute it to "culture", because I don't have any more specific theory, and play by ear how to try to filter or nurture it out of a collective. But I suspect there's a critical mass of that type gaining positions of influence in the organization, at which point the culture becomes irreversible, since there's too much arrogance to see it as a problem. At that point, I'd guess the rest of the people should be looking at their options for leaving, and also try not to think or behave like that type themselves.
The site also disables the back button (on mobile Chrome).
I have no idea why the site owner thinks their site was downranked (and the article never says: it assumes some context I lack), but I cynically wonder if it's related to the back-button and video-ad thing.
Even for the most ad-crappified site, I think the objection to a mysterious and opaque system is still valid, especially when it's arguably a monopoly or close enough not to matter.
In other words, I'm not saying their site deserves to be shown, but in general people do deserve a way to see why their site is in a weird status and have some documented path to redemption.
_________________
Quoting the relevant bits for convenience:
> Undeterred, we then asked the only question that mattered: Why has Google shadowbanned our sites? [...] He insisted it is only done at the page level.
> Many of the shadowbanned site owners attempted to politely push back and point out that the reason all 20 of us were there was specifically because our entire site was deranked from Google in a single night. [...]
> When asked what was wrong with our sites, as if we were jilted lovers in an abusive relationship being kicked to the curb, one Googler actually said “it’s not you it’s me”.
> Finally, someone bluntly asked, since nothing is wrong with our sites, how do we recover?
> Google’s elderly Chief Search Scientist answered, without an ounce of pity or concern, that there would be updates but he didn’t know when they’d happen or what they’d do. Further questions on the subject were met with indifference as if he didn’t understand why we cared.
As it says, they were desperate enough to travel in-person to Google headquarters to attend an event during weekday work-hours. That kind of effort usually means other avenues have been explored and exhausted.
Are you saying site-owner is just incredibly dumb, and never noticed/tried those online resources despite being highly motivated to do so? Or is it that you think they found a useful answer they didn't like, and are lying?
I could not read the whole thing or even get the gist of the parent site. Looks like one of those late 2000s content farm sites filled but chum box ads. Low quality all around.
I was reading this on my iPhone 11 Pro and my phone was turning warm in my hand. My music kept stopping and starting again. Eventually I had to kill the browser.
I am sorry this is happening to the authors. Maybe it’s related to the scumminess of their blog, maybe it isn’t.
I've been invited so two similar events over the past couple decades and one company I worked for had standing weekly meetings with Google. All I can say is my experience is pretty much they same, they lure you in wanting info and to help you, but don't give any answers and just keep wanting more info. In the end they didn't unblock us and in my opinion built a lot of what we shared into their systems. It was a knowledge theft exercise in my opinion, was NOT in any way meant to help anyone but Google.
in fact the standing weekly meetings were cancelled after we got to the point where the entire half hour was consumed with going over all the AIs their end had they we were still waiting for answers on. Since we never got any, we cancelled the meetings as wasteful.
This article doesn't give any specifics on the "shadow-banning." I am totally willing to believe in any douchebaggery anyone reports from Google, but I (as anyone should) require specifics to give any credence to the writer's claims.
This "article" fails to answer the first questions you'd have. For example, how did Google single you out for this invitation? The article asserts that it was all "shadow-banned" site owners, but then says the Google employee denied all shadow-banning. So how was the invitation phrased?
I'm not even going to waste time breaking down the rest of the empty bullshit in this article. It's unfortunate, because I'll bet every claim made against Google is true. But I'm not going to give a single one credence without specifics. If you're too lazy to provide those, you don't deserve support.
From a quick search it seems you get invited to these things by filling in a feedback form for Google.
As for shadowbanning, well, it doesn't take much to remember Google is a search platform and then to match that with his complaints about his site getting deranked.
Maybe that could have been made clearer, but surely if I could figure that out you could too.
Nobody should be expected to run around doing searches to support the assertions in a random article. Why would you serve as an unpaid tool?
Anybody on here can speculate as to what Google does to this or that Web site; but if you're going to write an article claiming it as fact, you need to support it.
It's a bummer that your time is free.
You could maybe consider directing these questions to the author of the article? Given the context, I'm sure he'd appreciate the feedback.
It's not uncommon for the authors of articles posted here to come to the comment forum.
"It was then I realized this wasn’t our funeral, it was Google’s."
What Google seems to be doing is banning aggregation sites. There was a previous posting today by someone who was complaining about low ranking for his book review and link farm site. Google wants to be the only aggregator. Why fan out queries to another level of aggregator?
A list of the 20 sites he's talking about would help. How many of those are aggregation sites?
The whole article is pretty confusing to me. It's never made at all clear what this event was supposed to be about or why this specific set of people were there. Presumably it wasn't "invite people who run 'shadowbanned' sites" when they don't acknowledge that there is such a thing. So what was it, then?
> Presumably it wasn't "invite people who run 'shadowbanned' sites" when they don't acknowledge that there is such a thing. So what was it, then?
Answer: it WAS to invite people who run shadowbanned sites, they just don't acknowledge that there is such a thing.
Which makes no sense. How did they phrase the invitation, then?
The writer is too lazy to say.
It's not confusing; it's totally unsupported bullshit.
The author claims that a bunch of "shadow-banned" site owners were invited to some summit, but couldn't be bothered to say how this invitation was phrased or delivered. How were the recipients identified, especially when he says the Google person claimed that no such sites existed?
This whole thing is an insulting waste of time.
> took place on October 29
> The day before, he led the group on a tour
> The building was empty
Monday, October 28th, was a work from home day.
The whole world seems dedicated to the goal of extracting value rather than creating it.
Or tricking someone else into creating value for you to take.
People tend to create value inherently. If they are not receiving the benefit of that then it would most appropriately be described as theft with the aid of blind regulators.
Anything you get for free, that requires someone else to work to provide it, means you're going to pay for it one way or another.
It could be true for things that could only be "used" once. But I don't think that it's a valid point at all times. Recently, for example, I've made a little "Linux for dummies" zine, and put it on my shelf. Sometimes guests take it, read it, and put it back. Technically, all of them get to read it for free, through no additional cost to me, because this zine already existed before they knew they wanted to "use it", and this zine will continue to exist after they "use it".
Sure, if it doesn't exist before you order it.
If it's already been made, someone may even pay you to take it away.
Welcome to capitalism. It's a tough realization.
Capitalism and thief are different things. We should stop using the first to justify the last. If this people was lured to work for free, this is not capitalism.
I'm sure that the glorious Communist Party would build a google where every site is equal in ranking and always occupies the first page.
It's a free country. You're free to implement a search engine and let anyone use it for free.
Good luck paying for it, though.
This is kind of disingenuous when the grandparent comment is complaining exactly about the particular way this country is free in.
Not at all. If someone wants to fund a charity search engine, they can do it.
No matter how you structure it, somebody is going to have to pay for it.
Another way of saying it is there's no such thing as a free lunch. In any society, any where, any time.
You might as well wish for an antigravity machine :-)
Depending on who pays, the incentives are different. In a socialist society, where some things are funded by the government, those things are generally much more aligned with the interest of the public than in capitalism, where most money wins.
So we need to persuade the NSA to finance our new search engine? Or should we turn to Putin or Xi? The European surveillance services would not be able to
You still have to pay the NSA, in the form of taxes.
You're surrounded by and typing on valuable goods and services that you received in exchange for a store of value called money, which you received by providing value to someone else.
> page has 22 ads
> calls chief search scientist “elderly”
> concludes google is dying
Author if you’re reading this the answer lies within.
"Empty too, was the rest of Google’s behemoth campus. Their numerous buildings are surrounded by beautiful, park-like pathways with no one to enjoy them but the groundskeepers. They follow the paths with their lawnmowers, weaving between softly shaded employee parking lots, with no one to park in them."
Without comment on the rest of the article, I can personally confirm that this particular statement is disinformation. I was there, in person, at the Google Mountain View campus, on October 29, 2024 visiting as a representative of an external partner (and as a long ago former employee). I did not attend this event, but I was nearby the entire day. Throughout the day the building I was in was very busy, with many people coming and going and working at desks. At lunchtime, we walked to the Google cafe a few buildings away which was brimming with people, to the point where our group of three struggled to find a table to eat at.
Of course there may have been buildings on campus which were empty or sparsely utilized. But the area I was in (western end of Charleston Rd) was anything but empty. In the future, the author should try to stick to the truth when making their point.
You need to read better: The day before, he led the group on a tour of Google’s biggest office
So that would be October 28. Apparently, the office was closed that day. As the author was there on 29 as well, it’s still pretty misleading though.
Will google ever recover the culture, or did management kill it?
Maybe that’s the purpose of our economic system? No inefficient fun?
What seems to happen is that after there is an initial surplus of value or benefit in any business - perhaps some of it going to customers, some of it going to service users, some of it going to employees, etc. - eventually someone in charge identifies and implements a way to tap that benefit and turn it into money that is absorbed by the company.
And with a monopoly, some of the surplus simply vanishes as deadweight loss.
Google makes nearly $500K in profit (out of $1.6M in revenue) per employee. It seems possible that they could potentially bring back some of the old work environment, or maybe even reduce overall encrapification, but there is little incentive to do so.
Google is not simply a moneymaking tool.
You're missing a(t least one) piece of the puzzle.
I'd like to think so. If Google didn't provide some useful goods (Pixel phones) or services (Google Cloud) then it would be a purely financial company.
For a ton of people, the ads Google sells are very useful. The ads make their products visible. It's weird (do you often click on ads?) but the effect exists, some customers do come this way. Businesses, big and small, readily buy ads.
This is what powers their empire, not selling phones or even GCE. Search is but a delivery vehicle of ads, maybe one of the most powerful but not the only one.
(Disclaimer: I don't buy or sell ads, and run an ad blocker in my browsers.)
I don't think I've ever clicked on a banner ad. I don't even see them, as my brain just treats them as a featureless background.
This is what I noticed to when I had to disable the ad blocker on some sites.
The ads are annoying because they break the reading flow (I think it is called parallax when the ad moves with your scrolling, but slower - I hate that).
My brain just compensates to keep z smooth reading peace but I have no idea what the ad is about.
What exactly are these websites, why do their webmasters have a special relationship as "Google Web Creators," and how is it so many of them were coincidentally shadowbanned? This article is interesting about the state of Google as seen by a visit to the campus and at a dismal event, but I still don't have a clear idea who the people let down by Google are.
Google procures to poison guests with dead animals and alcohol.
Wow, this is impressively brutal. I don't know anything about search or ranking these days, but the way insist on putting an AI summary at the top of every page definitely is good evidence for the theory that Google doesn't give a damn about the people doing all the actual work that makes a search engine valuable.
They must be planning on milking what value can be had from the web to which they used to be the entryway, and clash with OpenAI, MS and Apple over AI trained on curated datasets, to layer some semblance of a business model over it. And I say milking because the relationship to websites is now parasitic for the most part.
I started using Google search like ChatGPT, for asking questions and reading the AI responses. In many simple cases, it suffices.
As an actual search engine, Google search is still not bad, but now one of the many, without a large edge it used to have; I try it when DDG does not bring results I want, or I query DDG when Google does not bring results I want.
If you are doing this, I suggest giving the Perplexity app a try. It's very fast, convenient, and accurate. It was Perplexity, and not ChatGPT that reduced my Google usage.
I'm not really sure what option Google has. It's do or die.
they could fix google search instead
Same for Amazon reviews.
Google business model is mostly ads (~80% revenue) and majority of their ads are from google search (~60% of revenue). This allowed them to subsidise many other projects in the past.
These days they have a lot of competition in ads scene (meta, tiktok, x, reddit, amazon) and also other are gunning at google search: perplexity, searchGPT, bing. Apple choosing OpenAI for Apple Intelligence. Amazon teaming with Anthropic for Alexa. On top of that antitrust in EU and USA.
That's the reason google is killing lots of projects or loosing on many fronts these days or they aggressively try to monetise other projects (Youtube, Manifest V3.0). If they don't win in this AI race or diversify revenue/business model enshitification will continue.
> It was then I realized this wasn’t our funeral, it was Google’s.
Yeah, this is a nice thought, but Google is still a ~$3T business and probably will be for at least the next decade or two.
There's no karma or justice in the world, only cutthroat businessmen. And Google hires as many of those as they can.
> There's no karma or justice in the world
Life isn't fair, nature isn't fair, nothing made by man is fair.
The best we've got is providing people with freedom. And cutthroat businessmen have provided all the luxuries and food you have.
I'm telling you, many google employees are in a cult. They deny evidence in full confidence because thats what they're told say their work place.
I will just leave this here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18566929
I don't know how accurate this writeup is, but the characterization of behavior was eerily familiar.
If they'd been talking about a certain other place that I know, I would've wanted to shout "Exactly!", and would've implicitly believed that's what they saw.
There's a type who exhibits a combination of arrogance and self-interested fixation. There's no malice, and they aren't sociopaths, and they don't think of themselves as jerks. But they have a sense of superiority and entitlement, and can be aggressively, er, norms-bending, to get what they want.
Some environments seem to either attract them, or to nurture them. It's something unclear to me about the individual environment, not the external kind of organization (e.g., one high-prestige organization has a lot of it, but another high-prestige organization of the same kind doesn't).
I could attribute it to "culture", because I don't have any more specific theory, and play by ear how to try to filter or nurture it out of a collective. But I suspect there's a critical mass of that type gaining positions of influence in the organization, at which point the culture becomes irreversible, since there's too much arrogance to see it as a problem. At that point, I'd guess the rest of the people should be looking at their options for leaving, and also try not to think or behave like that type themselves.
Lmfao
Maybe don’t put ads between every paragraph on your blog.
The site also disables the back button (on mobile Chrome).
I have no idea why the site owner thinks their site was downranked (and the article never says: it assumes some context I lack), but I cynically wonder if it's related to the back-button and video-ad thing.
Edited to add: This article here provides some information about the meeting/roundtable thing described in TFA. https://www.seroundtable.com/google-creator-summit-38196.htm...
I haven't read your linked article, but it's crystal clear when you get downranked.
One day your analytics show you're getting less and less traffic from Google, while other sources remain constant. What else could be the reason?
Even for the most ad-crappified site, I think the objection to a mysterious and opaque system is still valid, especially when it's arguably a monopoly or close enough not to matter.
In other words, I'm not saying their site deserves to be shown, but in general people do deserve a way to see why their site is in a weird status and have some documented path to redemption.
_________________
Quoting the relevant bits for convenience:
> Undeterred, we then asked the only question that mattered: Why has Google shadowbanned our sites? [...] He insisted it is only done at the page level.
> Many of the shadowbanned site owners attempted to politely push back and point out that the reason all 20 of us were there was specifically because our entire site was deranked from Google in a single night. [...]
> When asked what was wrong with our sites, as if we were jilted lovers in an abusive relationship being kicked to the curb, one Googler actually said “it’s not you it’s me”.
> Finally, someone bluntly asked, since nothing is wrong with our sites, how do we recover?
> Google’s elderly Chief Search Scientist answered, without an ounce of pity or concern, that there would be updates but he didn’t know when they’d happen or what they’d do. Further questions on the subject were met with indifference as if he didn’t understand why we cared.
> deserve a way to see why their site is in a weird status
Like this? https://developers.google.com/search/updates/core-updates
> have some documented path to redemption
Like this? https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creat...
As it says, they were desperate enough to travel in-person to Google headquarters to attend an event during weekday work-hours. That kind of effort usually means other avenues have been explored and exhausted.
Are you saying site-owner is just incredibly dumb, and never noticed/tried those online resources despite being highly motivated to do so? Or is it that you think they found a useful answer they didn't like, and are lying?
I could not read the whole thing or even get the gist of the parent site. Looks like one of those late 2000s content farm sites filled but chum box ads. Low quality all around.
Not that this invalidates your comment, but why do you put yourself through ads? Block them.
I was reading this on my iPhone 11 Pro and my phone was turning warm in my hand. My music kept stopping and starting again. Eventually I had to kill the browser.
I am sorry this is happening to the authors. Maybe it’s related to the scumminess of their blog, maybe it isn’t.
This is exactly the kind of trash spam site I want Google to ban. Maybe thats why this writer had such a gloomy feeling.