Christmas day is a public holiday, and so is New Year's. It's also the end of the year when most people want to use up their paid time off. Nobody likes having a holiday on two Thursdays followed by work on Friday. Nor do we want to encourage people to carry vacation days to the next year. So we're happy to take the bulk time off at least, and it gives time for people to arrange school paperwork.
It is technically a sin in Islam to celebrate other religious holidays. Heck, if you want to go deep into the dogma, everything besides the two Eids shouldn't be celebrated and that includes Prophet Muhammad's birthday and New Year's. But you'll see very heated debates about this that I won't go into. Christmas lies in a weird place on this spectrum. Some say Abrahamic holidays are fine, some say most 'Islamic' holidays are blasphemy. People argue about the Santa hats too.
However, Christmas food is perfectly halal. Turkey, peppermint, non-alcoholic egg nog, various desserts. You'll see "end of year" dinners by Muslim restaurants that cater to this.
Culturally, many of us do have Christian family and friends. So it is a convenient time to meet family and just have an excuse to cook complex Western dishes once a year.
Gift giving is rare. You'll see secret Santa stuff at the workplace and in schools. 90% of people in the region do not have disposable income, so expensive gifts are frowned on, as they create pressure. Most are under $25, like fancy soap, snacks, chocolate, a power bank. There's also a culture where charity should be hidden, so stuff usually gets put in a box with no names and the boxes are pseudorandomly distributed.
It’s a winter solstice celebration, with decorated trees that precede Christianity. That’s why the manger is over on one side, and St Nick on the other. They were amalgamated together.
I was a little steamed when my son came home from school with a pamphlet about winter festivals which listed all of them except for the astronomically correct one that us pagans celebrate.
On the other hand, the Christian (apocryphal) idea that hope came into the world on the (almost) darkest day of the year is beautiful to me. As well as the idea that some ancient Hebrews miraculously survived in a cave.
I also like the idea that the celebrations start with advent like they do in Germany or that there are “12 days of Christmas” ending with the epiphany, which is a real astronomical event which is part of the explanation of why Christians celebrate the day that they do. Tomorrow we’re just bumming around the house and getting ready for family to come on Dec 26 and might visit a friend who was born Dec 25 on Dec 25. Sometime in the 12 days we expect to organize a Hogswatch party to enjoy
Even if one is a hardcore atheist and thinks that Jesus was only a weird jewish rabbi, not the god, one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Merely out of respect to all his legacy and positive influence that changed the world to a better place than it was before him.
> one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Perhaps, but - and take this with as many grains of salt as you like, since I'm an atheist - I've heard decent arguments that he was not born anywhere near December.
Plus, everything associated with Christmas as Americans celebrate it has virtually no bearing on the actual events of his birth and/or life, except I suppose the gift-giving.
Jesus was a real person, it’s a historical fact, not disputed by any worthwhile historians.
If 25 december is not an accurate birthday it’s okay, im happy with moving the celebration to other day if new findings arise.
I wasn’t saying that one particular way of celebrating is right or wrong. My point was about it’s only natural to pay respect to a man who influenced your life, no matter who you are and where you are in this world today. Apparently the degree of influence varies by many factors from almost zero to maximum possible.
Would you rather live today in a pagan war oriented society (and likely die or be enslaved in the next clan war) without all the technological achievements of the last centuries than in the society where you have all the opportunities to work at home or in a comfortable office and argue with a stranger on HN forum without risk of being scalped alive?
Lol how vile. The usual claiming all progress and achievement globally for your in-group while spouting racist stupid white man's burden nonsense about how you saved us all lmao. Only modern Christians can be so gross while having that Utah Mormon esque smile.
And you wish to speak of technology as if that is from your Christ.... What happened to gallileo? Copernicus? Descartes? Almost every great philosopher and scientist for the past 500 years has been in direct conflict with Christianity.... And Christianity is the reason TODAY in America we have to deal with anti-vaxxera, evolution isn't real, young earth creationist etc etc.... maybe you should stfu before opening your mouth to spout such stupidity.
What about all the horror death and suffering done in his name ? Like a huge proportion of these Christmas culture things come from pagan Norse culture that was very forcibly christianized in a rather brutal way??? You seem to be overlooking a lot to make someone "awesome" or at least the horrors done in their name long after death.
All those horrors are not unique to human nature unfortunately, nor to the religion. Same or worth things were done in the name of any deity you can think of.
It’s not something that he brought to this world.
But what he brought was powerful and radical enough to slowly and eventually overcome many of the terrible animal-like human traits. Christian societies were the first that got rid of slavery, introduced human rights, democracy etc.
Yes, it took a long time to unravel and it’s not a finished process, but it’s not something that just happened. What feel natural for us today was not natural at all back then.
All critical ethical ideas that modern western civilization is based were either invented or popularized by that guy in some unique and unprecedented way.
>one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Cool. So why don't you celebrate the birthday of Siddhartha Gautama? Or Confucius? Genghis Khan? Julius Caesar?
Because Jesus was not the most influential man in the history of the world. He was influential, but the world is bigger and history deeper than Christians want to believe.
Hell, the only reason anyone even still cares about Jesus is because the Roman emperor Constantine decided Christians were more valuable to him fighting in his army than being fed to lions. If not for him, Christianity would have just been another weird Levantine cult and would have probably died out. So why not celebrate Constantine's birthday instead?
Or the Apostle Paul's birthday? It was his idea to spread the faith to gentiles after all, and one could argue modern Christianity is more influenced by Paul than Jesus.
This is not an opportunity for you to proselytize me.
> Siddhartha Gautama? Or Confucius? Genghis Khan? Julius Caesar?
Valid question.
Mentioned people are not as nearly influential. Buddha is close though. But there were many enlightened men before and after him. There were many other emperors. But no more figures like jesus, even modern eastern gurus often mention him and reference him as an example.
Paul and others were important for the religion yes, but without jesus and powerful message, influence there would have been nothing to work with. There a tons of examples in history of very popular jesus-like figures with even larger initial traction that nobody even knows today.
So accidentally or not - he is the winner. Why not celebrate that. And i assume that history is bigger than christians want to believe, cant know for sure, im not one.
Christma$$ is so very commercial. Jesus’ message is universally ignored, based on actions, and in fact the entire world economy is based on the seven deadly sins. [0] You wouldn’t want people to destroy the world economy by being devout, would you?
Pride, Greed, Envy, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Laziness.
From the cited article:
> Pride. Pride is the will to omnipotence. It’s the greatest of sins, and yet it’s everywhere: big business and the elites impose their rules on the world, new technologies are increasingly transgressive (AI, transhumanism, space conquest, etc.), skyscrapers are being built ever taller, etc. In one way or another, the biggest companies reflect this pride.
> Greed. Greed is the excessive attachment to money, and the contemporary economy is based on the constant quest for profit. The accumulation of wealth, tax havens and excessive speculation are all modern forms of greed.
> Envy. Envy is a deep-seated vice: it means wanting what someone else has. These days, marketing and advertising constantly make us dream of other people’s lives, in a competition where everyone tries to compare themselves, without ever being satisfied with what they are and what they have. In particular, social networking platforms …
> Anger. But the modern economy, by creating the best and the worst, generates inhuman inequalities that arouse anger in everyone.
> Lust. Lust is the immoderate pursuit of sexual desire. The MindGeek company, which brings together the major platforms of the pornographic industry, including YouPorn, Pornhub, etc., is enjoying worldwide success.
> Gluttony. Gluttony, as we all know, is not a passing fancy. It’s a compulsive need for food pleasure. As the modern economy constantly pushes us to consume, it also pushes those who can afford it to eat non-stop…
> Laziness. Finally, laziness is not just weariness. It is the refusal of physical, moral and intellectual effort.
There you go. We are creating tools that even think for us.
So, only a few among us actually believe in the child’s message, and behave accordingly, (actions count, really they do) or at least try to. :-)
I recognize that this wasn't your decision but I would say having that HN Christmas banner (or any religious holiday banner) is a form of proselytizing. (Not disagreeing with what you said in reply btw.)
I feel that having a banner like that shows a sense of entitlement that people who celebrate (or have been raised to believe in Christ or another religion) have with this entire time of year.
(This is irrespective if the same is done for other holidays which apparently it is but HN history doesn't show this (when searching for stories from a particular day)).
Muslim majority country here (Malaysia).
Christmas day is a public holiday, and so is New Year's. It's also the end of the year when most people want to use up their paid time off. Nobody likes having a holiday on two Thursdays followed by work on Friday. Nor do we want to encourage people to carry vacation days to the next year. So we're happy to take the bulk time off at least, and it gives time for people to arrange school paperwork.
It is technically a sin in Islam to celebrate other religious holidays. Heck, if you want to go deep into the dogma, everything besides the two Eids shouldn't be celebrated and that includes Prophet Muhammad's birthday and New Year's. But you'll see very heated debates about this that I won't go into. Christmas lies in a weird place on this spectrum. Some say Abrahamic holidays are fine, some say most 'Islamic' holidays are blasphemy. People argue about the Santa hats too.
However, Christmas food is perfectly halal. Turkey, peppermint, non-alcoholic egg nog, various desserts. You'll see "end of year" dinners by Muslim restaurants that cater to this.
Culturally, many of us do have Christian family and friends. So it is a convenient time to meet family and just have an excuse to cook complex Western dishes once a year.
Gift giving is rare. You'll see secret Santa stuff at the workplace and in schools. 90% of people in the region do not have disposable income, so expensive gifts are frowned on, as they create pressure. Most are under $25, like fancy soap, snacks, chocolate, a power bank. There's also a culture where charity should be hidden, so stuff usually gets put in a box with no names and the boxes are pseudorandomly distributed.
I, and most of my country I think, celebrate Christmas but don’t really consider it a religious thing.
Most people are somewhere between non militant atheists and “technically Christian but only see priests on weddings and funerals”.
People who complain about expressions like Mary Christmas and people who preach religious values are both really uncommon.
Kids want Santa, adults use the chance to get the family together, that’s about it.
It’s a winter solstice celebration, with decorated trees that precede Christianity. That’s why the manger is over on one side, and St Nick on the other. They were amalgamated together.
I was a little steamed when my son came home from school with a pamphlet about winter festivals which listed all of them except for the astronomically correct one that us pagans celebrate.
On the other hand, the Christian (apocryphal) idea that hope came into the world on the (almost) darkest day of the year is beautiful to me. As well as the idea that some ancient Hebrews miraculously survived in a cave.
I also like the idea that the celebrations start with advent like they do in Germany or that there are “12 days of Christmas” ending with the epiphany, which is a real astronomical event which is part of the explanation of why Christians celebrate the day that they do. Tomorrow we’re just bumming around the house and getting ready for family to come on Dec 26 and might visit a friend who was born Dec 25 on Dec 25. Sometime in the 12 days we expect to organize a Hogswatch party to enjoy
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765458/
Even if one is a hardcore atheist and thinks that Jesus was only a weird jewish rabbi, not the god, one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Merely out of respect to all his legacy and positive influence that changed the world to a better place than it was before him.
> one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Perhaps, but - and take this with as many grains of salt as you like, since I'm an atheist - I've heard decent arguments that he was not born anywhere near December.
Plus, everything associated with Christmas as Americans celebrate it has virtually no bearing on the actual events of his birth and/or life, except I suppose the gift-giving.
There is no argument about whether Jesus was born on Christmas. Most theologians won’t argue that he was.
Jesus was a real person, it’s a historical fact, not disputed by any worthwhile historians.
If 25 december is not an accurate birthday it’s okay, im happy with moving the celebration to other day if new findings arise.
I wasn’t saying that one particular way of celebrating is right or wrong. My point was about it’s only natural to pay respect to a man who influenced your life, no matter who you are and where you are in this world today. Apparently the degree of influence varies by many factors from almost zero to maximum possible.
The man who influenced MY life for the better are you INSANE.... I AM NATIVE AMERICAN LMAO
Tell me honestly.
Would you rather live today in a pagan war oriented society (and likely die or be enslaved in the next clan war) without all the technological achievements of the last centuries than in the society where you have all the opportunities to work at home or in a comfortable office and argue with a stranger on HN forum without risk of being scalped alive?
Lol how vile. The usual claiming all progress and achievement globally for your in-group while spouting racist stupid white man's burden nonsense about how you saved us all lmao. Only modern Christians can be so gross while having that Utah Mormon esque smile.
And you wish to speak of technology as if that is from your Christ.... What happened to gallileo? Copernicus? Descartes? Almost every great philosopher and scientist for the past 500 years has been in direct conflict with Christianity.... And Christianity is the reason TODAY in America we have to deal with anti-vaxxera, evolution isn't real, young earth creationist etc etc.... maybe you should stfu before opening your mouth to spout such stupidity.
Galileo, copernicus, descartes were all christians, also newton.
Some of them were in conflict with the church. Never with christ or god.
If you’re ignorant and uneducated enough to not see the difference between the 2 then there is no point to argue with you. You’re likely brainwashed.
Ps: Also if you didn’t know first western universities started as monasteries with monks seeking the truth in the name of christ.
What about all the horror death and suffering done in his name ? Like a huge proportion of these Christmas culture things come from pagan Norse culture that was very forcibly christianized in a rather brutal way??? You seem to be overlooking a lot to make someone "awesome" or at least the horrors done in their name long after death.
All those horrors are not unique to human nature unfortunately, nor to the religion. Same or worth things were done in the name of any deity you can think of.
It’s not something that he brought to this world.
But what he brought was powerful and radical enough to slowly and eventually overcome many of the terrible animal-like human traits. Christian societies were the first that got rid of slavery, introduced human rights, democracy etc.
Yes, it took a long time to unravel and it’s not a finished process, but it’s not something that just happened. What feel natural for us today was not natural at all back then.
All critical ethical ideas that modern western civilization is based were either invented or popularized by that guy in some unique and unprecedented way.
>one should celebrate the birthday of the most influential and awesome man in the history of mankind.
Cool. So why don't you celebrate the birthday of Siddhartha Gautama? Or Confucius? Genghis Khan? Julius Caesar?
Because Jesus was not the most influential man in the history of the world. He was influential, but the world is bigger and history deeper than Christians want to believe.
Hell, the only reason anyone even still cares about Jesus is because the Roman emperor Constantine decided Christians were more valuable to him fighting in his army than being fed to lions. If not for him, Christianity would have just been another weird Levantine cult and would have probably died out. So why not celebrate Constantine's birthday instead?
Or the Apostle Paul's birthday? It was his idea to spread the faith to gentiles after all, and one could argue modern Christianity is more influenced by Paul than Jesus.
This is not an opportunity for you to proselytize me.
> Siddhartha Gautama? Or Confucius? Genghis Khan? Julius Caesar?
Valid question.
Mentioned people are not as nearly influential. Buddha is close though. But there were many enlightened men before and after him. There were many other emperors. But no more figures like jesus, even modern eastern gurus often mention him and reference him as an example.
Paul and others were important for the religion yes, but without jesus and powerful message, influence there would have been nothing to work with. There a tons of examples in history of very popular jesus-like figures with even larger initial traction that nobody even knows today.
So accidentally or not - he is the winner. Why not celebrate that. And i assume that history is bigger than christians want to believe, cant know for sure, im not one.
The comment was not about the religion at all.
Everybody I know celebrates Christmas, and most of them are not Christian. It's another holiday like Halloween imo.
Christmas has become more and more of a secular holiday over the years.
I think that's true in many western countries.
Christma$$ is so very commercial. Jesus’ message is universally ignored, based on actions, and in fact the entire world economy is based on the seven deadly sins. [0] You wouldn’t want people to destroy the world economy by being devout, would you?
Pride, Greed, Envy, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Laziness. From the cited article:
> Pride. Pride is the will to omnipotence. It’s the greatest of sins, and yet it’s everywhere: big business and the elites impose their rules on the world, new technologies are increasingly transgressive (AI, transhumanism, space conquest, etc.), skyscrapers are being built ever taller, etc. In one way or another, the biggest companies reflect this pride.
> Greed. Greed is the excessive attachment to money, and the contemporary economy is based on the constant quest for profit. The accumulation of wealth, tax havens and excessive speculation are all modern forms of greed.
> Envy. Envy is a deep-seated vice: it means wanting what someone else has. These days, marketing and advertising constantly make us dream of other people’s lives, in a competition where everyone tries to compare themselves, without ever being satisfied with what they are and what they have. In particular, social networking platforms …
> Anger. But the modern economy, by creating the best and the worst, generates inhuman inequalities that arouse anger in everyone.
> Lust. Lust is the immoderate pursuit of sexual desire. The MindGeek company, which brings together the major platforms of the pornographic industry, including YouPorn, Pornhub, etc., is enjoying worldwide success.
> Gluttony. Gluttony, as we all know, is not a passing fancy. It’s a compulsive need for food pleasure. As the modern economy constantly pushes us to consume, it also pushes those who can afford it to eat non-stop…
> Laziness. Finally, laziness is not just weariness. It is the refusal of physical, moral and intellectual effort.
There you go. We are creating tools that even think for us.
So, only a few among us actually believe in the child’s message, and behave accordingly, (actions count, really they do) or at least try to. :-)
[0] https://julienchevalier.com/en/the-economy-of-the-7-deadly-s...
curious, do you know how many HN'ers there are?
There's a great deal of lurkers. I'm always surprised by the traffic it brings and how many are familiar with HN but never comment.
In 2022, dang said about 5 million unique monthly users. Probably grown a bit since then I would guess.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33450094
Just read the Bible you will get the point that Jesus has created the world for Himself and His glory. And us to inherit His glory
I'm sure you mean it sincerely but please don't do this here. HN isn't the place to proselytize.
I recognize that this wasn't your decision but I would say having that HN Christmas banner (or any religious holiday banner) is a form of proselytizing. (Not disagreeing with what you said in reply btw.)
I feel that having a banner like that shows a sense of entitlement that people who celebrate (or have been raised to believe in Christ or another religion) have with this entire time of year.
(This is irrespective if the same is done for other holidays which apparently it is but HN history doesn't show this (when searching for stories from a particular day)).