I just started a new job where I'm subjected to Windows 11. They gave me a behemoth of a laptop. 64GB of RAM, absolute screamer of a CPU, big GPU, the whole deal.
Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
I'm getting used to a new keyboard, so I keep hitting Print Screen by accident. Half the time I can smack Esc and Snipping Tool will go away. The other half of the time, I have to mouse over and click the X to close it. There is no pattern to when Esc does/doesn't work.
If my computer goes to sleep, WSL becomes unresponsive. I have to save all my stuff and reboot to continue working.
If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else. All my colleagues who have been here for a bit longer got last-generation laptops. oof.
Edit... and besides, what does Windows 11 even do that KDE Plasma 5 wasn't doing a decade ago? How did it take this long to get a tabbed file browser?
> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I have a Windows 11 workstation that I use all the time for some CAD software and the occasional game. Everything is fast. There's no lag with context menus or browsing directories with a lot of files.
If I have to browse network CIFS shares with a lot of files, Windows does it better than my mac or Linux boxes by a mile. I've switched over just to Windows a time or two just to deal with high file count shares.
> If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else.
I put Windows 11 on an old low powered laptop for a family member. FYI you can easily circumvent some of the Windows 11 requirements and put it on old hardware.
It's fast. It doesn't have any of the problems you're describing.
I do wonder how many of the "Windows 11 is painfully slow" comments are coming from people with corporate laptops with extremely laggy endpoint management overhead.
>> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
You can repro this on demo Surface laptops at Costco. It’s not a good look when expensive laptops render their darn File Explorer slowly.
Also re endpoint management, corporate Macs also have endpoint management and still provide better experience vs corporate Windows PCs.
Microsoft isn’t a mute participant in the corporate device market. Their recommendations and best practices carry enormous weight. Windows division can work with security vendors and customers to improve UX. But they maybe haven’t done enough. Maybe because Windows is an increasingly small fraction of Microsoft’s bottom line? Who knows.
But today you’ll see increasing numbers of Macs in even super-Windows-heavy workplaces, especially in digital/cyber/AI/leadership roles. That’s not a one-company quirk.
> Microsoft isn’t a mute participant in the corporate device market.
This is 100% on point! For the past three years all of my in-office work was done on a ChromeBox running ChromeOS, I work in a contact center, but my specific project does not focus on customers but other stuff.
At first I thought they did this because Chrome-anything is usually cheap, but the devices they give us are all around or above $1000, so now I think we use them only because the client wants us to use them, since on some other projects they do use Windows, but with this client we have A LOT of project and A LOT of work, so it's not like we're the exception.
I think with the advent of SteamOS, ChromeOS and Android merging, we could legit see a serious move away from Windows, even in corporate worlds, but who knows, my vision could just be clouded, I'm not a genius or some smart person like a bunch of people here on HN, I work for basically a minimum salary (Portugal), live in a room, that the company that hires me, rents to me, and read HN mostly for entertainment.
A few years ago my laptop died while I was travelling. I was going to back to back tech conferences - and not having a computer would be a disaster. So, I went to best buy and picked up a brand new $500 HP laptop. It was running windows 11 or 10 or something - whatever was current at the time. And a recent enough intel CPU and 4gb of ram. It was way faster than my desktop machine from 10 years earlier. I figured it'd be plenty fast enough.
Nope. The experience was just rubbish. Out of the box, the machine was incredibly slow. It would get warm to the touch while sitting idle, and the battery would die in about 45 minutes. I quickly figured out there was some HP audio process running all the time to do noise cancellation on input from the microphone. For some reason it was active all the time, and it needed about 30% of a core to do its thing. So I got rid of that. But windows explorer was still slow... of course, it was some HP antivirus rootkit program preinstalled doing who knows what. I spent hours clearing crap off that machine. Anything with HP in the name, to start. It probably would have been faster to reinstall windows completely, but I didn't want to do that from a hotel room over wifi.
By the time I was done, it was ... ok. The machine still lagged when you opened programs for some reason. But the battery life went up to 3-4 hours, and it was fast enough I could get work done.
I think about that laptop a lot. Imagine all the people who buy those laptops. What % will spend the hours it took to clear the crapware off them? I can easily imagine my mother buying a laptop like that and just assuming that's how fast computers are.
I think this might be the #1 benefit for regular people to buying a mac. When you buy a computer from apple, there's no 3rd party who installed a bunch of crap on the computer before you got your hands on it. The only people who install crap software are Apple. And as much as I hate apple's greedy background processes, they tend to pause while you're running on battery.
> You can repro this on demo Surface laptops at Costco.
Never underestimate how much bloatware is running on that costco laptop. Open up task manager. You'll see.
I recently reset a Dell laptop for a friend. Dual core, 8gb RAM, HDD (not SSD), can run Windows 11, so I ran the built-in recovery feature and it took almost 2 days to just get Windows 10 updated.
When I saw it was still absolutely crap and unusable, I considered putting Linux on it, but didn't want to end up as support, so...
Long story short, a clean install of Windws 11 was functional. Updates took forever and a day. The computer itself takes about 6-8 minutes to become usable on boot, but once everything is cached into RAM, it's usable.
More usable initially than my work issued Dell (when I actually worked at Dell) that within a week I cloned and installed an SSD on, probably breaking all kinds of terminable policies. So,story time:
I did some silly things in those 4 years there to bypass bureaucracy: Cloned my entire laptop into a VM to have a secondary method of accessing work stuff. Created an entire test lab using unauthorized disk cloning into VMs for remote access. Disabled auto updates by management software so PCs wouldn't be kicked off the network. Probably set off all kinds of alarms. Would occasionally reenable to keep VM authorized.
The kicker is that I was recognized company-wide for creating something useful out of basically nothing but my time and curiosity. Got a bonus for it, on top of it.
To your point, my 96GB DDR5 24-core desktop-replacement "gaming" laptop, when used regularly, with a decent amount of startup apps, still struggles to be responsive on boot. There is a lot of bloat I don't want to get rid of because they provide updates and performance features. At startup, I'm usually at 14 GB RAM used, which is nuts. Not sure how to fix this trend.
> I'm usually at 14 GB RAM used, which is nuts. Not sure how to fix this trend.
I know this isn't an option for many, but I think swapping to linux might be the right first step. Linux would be fast as lightning on a computer like that.
I don't share his experience entirely, by even on my desktop built for gaming I can notice the right click menu is delayed in comparison to Windows 10. Even more heinous, before you remove it, the AI button would lazy load causing you to sometimes hit it by accident when you mean to hit something else. God forbid I'm not 80 years old and click my menus with any sort of speed.
Also, if I'm going to have to adjust anything to use an operating system, I might as well use Linux. The only value prop for me to use Windows was gaming, but at this point I'm just completely ripping the band-aid off because it doesn't seem like Microsoft is going in a better direction.
> Even more heinous, before you remove it, the AI button would lazy load causing you to sometimes hit it by accident when you mean to hit something else.
I had a comment a few days ago about my freshly installing, configuring, and A/B testing W10 and W11 on a not-too-old HP laptop, using both HDD and NVMe:
Now last night my partner comes back from the dumpster with a Toshiba laptop that's in great shape, its 20 full years old, came with Windows Vista, had been upgraded to Windows 7, has 1GB of memory, 120GB SATA2 HDD (slower than modern SATA), dual-core 1.73GHz CPU.
Seems to work perfectly and With W7 it's snappier than the 2019 HP booted to old or new Windows 10 or Windows 11 even more. All comparisons at baseline without the internet.
When you try W11 on a HDD it really emphasizes the difference from W10 on the same hardware.
But when this kind of W7 thing just falls in your lap, it really hits you how much better performance could have been available by now from Windows if they really tried.
Or didn't drop the ball every time they were at bat, depending on the general manager ;)
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I disagree. I've got windows defender as the only endpoint software on both my daily driver machines, and I see the same issues.
In 2019, I was working for a place that installed Carbon Black on my desktop and it went from fast to unusable overnight. I've since changed jobs, and I've seen a decay in the baseline of the OS over the last 6 years.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I know you're getting hammered on this, but this is also an indicting statement. If your brand-new OS requires you to have endpoint management that locks it down so much that it affects how long it takes to open files, that's on the OS, not the endpoint management.
Okay, it's on both... endpoint management as a rule is horribly written software, which is shocking knowing how intrusive it is into the system. But, if the OS has so many vulnerabilities that you're required to have endpoint management, that's not a good look on the OS.
My current and former $JOB both required endpoint management on Macs (and a limited amount for folks who used Linux), so it's not a blanket statement. But the impact of the endpoint software on Mac and Linux were still much lower. That is, once I figured out that a certain (redundant) enterprise firewall was crashing my work Mac anytime I plugged in a USB network adapter.
>>> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
>>> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
This can also be due to OneDrive / Sharepoint / Teams etc. Which I suspect supports your point.
A hard lesson I learned was that cloning a git repository into a directory managed by OneDrive is a recipe for interesting behavior.
Windows seemingly hate many tiny files, even in sharded directories, many ecosystems suffered because of this; node_modules, .git, the examples are many.
To be fair on this default windows drive formatting is not well suited to many small files in general.
Unrealengine taking 40 extra gigs because of underutilization on small files is one rampant case.
Large python project disk ballooning is another.
That it's file copy move is also dramatically bad at handling such scenarios compounds this further as can be seen by shuffling the same lot with teracopy vs explorer and windows default behavior irrespective of drive formatting. Can easily be hours of difference.
> To be fair on this default windows drive formatting is not well suited to many small files in general
How is that fairer? :P They set the defaults, they could change it, yet they don't. Seems entirely fair to point out shitty defaults as faults of their OS, regardless of how that came to be.
Yeah, I remember trying to delete a fully loaded Python installation that had found its way onto a OneDrive-managed folder. After a chat with IT, I learned that OneDrive can only delete X number of files at once. We agreed that the most practical solution was for me to spend an hour deleting files by hand, and choose another drive next time. Fortunately I don't really depend on OneDrive as a backup, since GitHub does that job well enough.
The other thing is that both Git and OneDrive are in some sense fiddling with your file system at once.
If I were an assuming feller I'd "almost guarantee" that you haven't been blessed/cursed with anything besides Windows 11.
A lot of my beef, personally, can be chalked up to Windows' aggressively long animation times. It's serviceable with them turned off. But even with animations turned off on an aggressively debloated consumer PC there is either a notable delay or a perception thereof in context menus and file explorer that did not exist with Windows 10, or on my Linux machines.
Speaking of animations, it’s shocking to me how bad they are.
I turned on hiding the taskbar the other day. I don’t think they’ve changed it since Windows 95. I have a modern gaming laptop, and the animation is purely linear, no acceleration. It feels so weirdly unnatural. Even worse, it’s not smoothly animated! I have a 120Hz monitor but it seems to be animated at 5fps.
Nobody on the Windows team seems to give a single shit at all.
From the comment you're replying to:
"Windows does it better than my mac or Linux boxes by a mile"
So I wouldn't assume they've only used Windows. FWIW I also primarily use Windows 11 currently, but have also used other OS'es. I've experienced frustrations with all of them. Just because it's fast for you doesn't mean it's fast for everyone, and vice-versa. I could certainly buy that more people are having problems with 11 than they did with 10, though it hasn't been my personal experience. Just saying we shouldn't assume our own experiences are universal.
"I have a Windows 11 workstation ... There's no lag with context menus or browsing directories with a lot of files."
You have the same Windows updates as everyone else and it will be painful. Also you should be keeping those CAD and games up to date and that will be very painful. Updates often happen at unfortunate times.
The Win 11 start menu has managed to be worse than the Win 10 effort and jumped to the middle of the task bar because ... reasons. Search on it is ever so slow. For some reason Win server 2025 has decided that I want to use a welsh keyboard (I'm english and tend to en_GB) when I RDP to one. Cymraeg (soz if I got "welsh" wrong) is alphabetically first in the en_GB list of keyboard mappings and I didn't even know there is a welsh keyboard! I suppose they must have some accents and diacritics not found in english. Its all just a bit weird that a bug like that surfaces after well over two decades of me using RDP from a Linux box to a Windows server.
You wag your finger at endpoint management in the same way that most software vendors used to do at AV back in the 90s and 00s (and 10s and 20s!) Its nothing new and basically bollocks! Modern AV is very good at being mostly asynchronous these days and besides, we have unimaginably faster machines these days and very fast CPU, gobs of RAM and SSDs. Copy a multi GB file and yes AV will take a while but at least you might be saved from nasties.
There is a good reason that corp devices have to run things like inventory agents, log shippers and the rest too - its about security. You doing your own IT security is fine and I'm sure you'll be fine.
You can get Win 11 to work on an old machine for now but as you say, you have to circumvent things. When you do that, I think you are storing up issues for later. Perhaps you will be lucky but perhaps not. My dad will soon be rocking Linux instead of blowing a grand+ on a new PC. He will get a secure booting Ubuntu based effort that looks quite similar to Win 11 that is fully supported by the vendor ... and me. I managed to "port" my wife some years ago and she is a much tougher proposition than my dad!
> Also you should be keeping those CAD and games up to date
Not OP, but why? I have a perpetual license and a 12-year-old copy of a corpo CAD package and it works fine. I see no reason to compulsively update something that's feature-complete and functional.
Updates break shit or make shit worse for me all the time. See: Windows 11, macOS Tahoe, and KDE next year when they drop my working X11 session and expect me to use busted-ass Wayland that's missing functionality I use daily.
Why do I need updates? "Security?" I'm not exactly a nation-state hacking target. I don't run random pirated software. I'm firewalled to hell, and behind CGNAT on Starlink. I'll keep my browser up to date, fine, but I'm still running -esr.
I get where you are coming from. That was my stance roughly 20 years ago too. I also note that you are quite clearly not daft!
You and I have different "jobs". I worry about thousands of systems on many sites, one of which is my home. I'm an IT consultant and am the managing director of my company. I think you are an engineer, perhaps retired ("12-year-old copy of a corpo CAD package and it works fine")
If Solidworks, Catia, AutoCAD or whatever (?) works then fine. You might like to firewall off whichever vendor's website/security systems might want to stop a 12 year old copy of a corpo CAD from working if it isn't licensed. It probably is because all of the above generally need a license service.
I worry about many 1000s of PCs and I think updates, patches etc are a good idea. If you are an engineer, then you will have to do your own "deploy, fix issues" cycle. IT is just the same.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
Not necessarily. Every little or not so little utility deems it necessary to install a context menu item on Windows. Corporate or not. Just like every little or not so little utility deems it necessary to send you notifications on mobile.
On Windows the solution is Total Commander, on mobile the solution is to turn all notifications off :)
The Windows 11-way is to just plaster another, worse, context menu over the working existing one. Now every right click was actually two clicks. You can disable it, but what the hell...
How about a right click on the desktop? I have a very fast computer with no bloatware on, yet it takes half a second for the desktop context menu to appear. When I do this repeatedly. The first time takes 1 second or more.
Compare with a right click menu in a browser which is instant.
I can't test it on my current computer, but does the setting affect menus that are triggered by hovering over something?
If so, then 400ms makes more sense, and the real bug is that menus summoned by an explicit click should be exempt from the delay.
The reason for a hover-delay is that it allows someone to flick their mouse to their real destination without triggering a "trap" of content which pops up on the way to obscure their goals.
The endpoint stuff kills laptop performance. I left my previous job and they let me keep my X1 Nano (1st gen; 16GB memory) which was performing abysmally towards the end.
Deleted all the partitions and did a 100% clean install (multi boot Win11/Fedora), and it's suddenly what feels like 2-4x as fast. Made sure to disable some of the Copilot and Internet content in search menu rubbish etc with a few registry tweaks (yay for having admin access to get rid of the bloat/junk).
Fedora/Wayland/Plasma still feels faster though - I just had some issues getting my video to work properly across all of Teams and Zoom.
Back in the times of Windows 95 and Windows XP, reinstalling the OS at least once per year made Windows noticeably faster. Then it degraded month by month. And yet I still remember how incredibly faster the same laptop was with Ubuntu 8.04. Faster than a newly installed Windows.
>> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
>I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
It seems to be a common complaint online, dating back to the launch of 11. I see some of the blame being put on extensions but what changed in the extensions between 10 and 11 to cause this?
I know on my work computer I was experiencing this plus I almost always have to click show more and wait for that lag to finish.
I was able to edit the registry to show all at the cost of 1 lag...so I guess a step forward?
Are you sure it's the corporate tracker? Maybe it's the copilot tracker, or maybe the Recall video recording? Maybe it's the Windows anti-virus, or even the corporate anti-virus. What about the Advertisement stuff and the web search?
It's hard to tell what makes a non-stock Windows install slow.
I have similar suspicions. I have a decent but not spectacular company Thinkpad. When I first got it, it was super-fast; it didn’t matter that sleep very quickly turned into an automatic shutdown, as it booted in mere seconds.
Gradually, over the past 9 or so months, it’s just become progressively worse and worse in a range of ways. It might be Windows updates, but the magnitude makes me suspect it’s layer upon layer of corporate management and security nonsense.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I had the same issue with a loan machine from a client, super responsive onsite, but once I connected through a VPN from an external network, all the basic functionality in the file manager was brought to a halt. Even something as simple as right click on a folder to show a context menu would take several seconds.
The files were all local (also with Onedrive sync disabled) so I am almost positive it was whatever they were using for endpoint protection (Can't recall 100% but probably something from CrowdStrike).
Either you haven't been when context menus / explorer was blazingly fast or something odd happens there, since I can confirm that on brand new PC (128GB RAM, 9950X3D, 5090) with vanilla Windows 11 it still lags and annoys a lot after some linux distro.
Endpoint software is a blight. My company's M2 pro should have flown through the things i subject it to. But simple things like linting on many files is slower than my 8y old pc on a sata-SSD.
Often the software itself is fine but it makes it possible for the IT department to configure performance killing behaviours.
SHA hash every file you open, execute specific actions if the a opened file or process matches specific heuristics, log everything.
Well the reason they install it is often not to enable the features you bought the license for, which is, on-the-fly scanning. It pushes all IO through a hose in case of windows defender.
I guessed the same thing. Probably the fault of employer-mandated software gumming things up. But since the only reason to run Windows is because my employer mandates it, almost all of my Windows experiences involve enterprise-managed lag in the extreme.
It may not exactly be Microsoft's fault, but it piles nicely onto a pre-disposition against them and all pro-MS IT departments who can't seem to tie their own shoelaces. It takes a maturity that is sometimes lacking in moments of frustration not to blame all the world's problems on MS.
on my corporate laptop as well as my own private surface laptop as well as my gaming rig does file explorer lag doing pretty much anything and the context menu can sometimes take like 10 seconds to open. this is a pretty wide spread issue you can see people mention this everywhere
> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
There's a guy that has written their own version of explorer that's so fast in comparison to the built-in, that you'd think they were cheating somehow because of everyone's experience with explorer.
And someone has written an IDE for C++ that opens while Visual Studio is on its splash screen.
And another that has written a debugger with the same performance.
And a video doing the rounds of Word ('97?) on spinning rust opening in just under 2 seconds.
Basically, everything MS is doing is degrading performance. Opportunities for regular devs to go back to performant software, and MS is unlikely to fix theirs in the foreseeable future.
For a lifetime license incl updates forever that seems quite reasonable to me. It's a bit over a year of Netflix.
In fact, given that it includes perpetual priority support (within a business day!) I expect the author's gonna change that soon, once he gets one of those infinitely demanding customers and realizes what a terrible mistake he made (inf support for a one-time payment, oops!). So better bite while it's hot!
The €40 option for one year of updates is a lot more economical and is still a perpetual license for the software itself.
Imagine paying for a file browser. This is why windows will always win. They have the most docile userbase ever. They'd rather pay 250 bucks for a file picker than to change OS.
My solution to the nag screen was that I never turned off my computer, just put it to sleep, so Total Commander was always running.
Interestingly, TC was one of the few software that I considered paying for, but in the end I didn't because they asked for too much information at the time. Not long later I switched to Linux, and I couldn't use TC there.
I wonder if a lot of Windows users are also BMW drivers. If they're willing to shrug off $250 a year to be able to copy files efficiently on their computers, they are likely also to applaud the wonders of $50 a month for heated seats.
£50 for a heated seat, perhaps, but you also get by far one of the best turbocharged inline-6 engines ever put in a 4-door saloon, the S58. Analogous to Windows NT, a well-engineered kernel.
I've tried this a few times. Windows 10. Downloaded the 2MB file, double-clicked on it, and nothing happens. Same thing when I tried it a few months again. Put it in a command prompt and no output of an error.
I'm starting to worry I just launched something malicious.
The latter is normal on windows. Executables have a header flag which specifies they either use the terminal or not. If a terminal program is opened from outside a terminal, it opens a terminal window. If a nonterminal program is opened from a terminal, it instantly detaches.
The problem is on windows you're competing directly against the guys who own the operating system. So even when there is a gap for a better file manager the one that microsoft makes is so entrenched and microsoft can make sure they always win. It sucks.
hilariously, the last time I had a new windows machine and opened up edge to download firefox I got some sort of message about giving edge a proper try first.
I found chrome was putting itself into "eco mode" on my Lenovo (work) laptop all of a sudden. Meant that waking up took FOREVER, and accessing a web page (required as part of a daily login) took 15+ seconds to load when first logging in, as opposed to a few seconds, which caused our password app to timeout at times, etc. Who the heck comes up with these ideas? "Eco mode" by default? And no way to disable it easily? I had to add an obscure switch to the chrome startup to make it run normally again.
On newer laptops, and I’ve seen this specifically on thinkpads) if the power supply you are using is not the correct wattage, the system will throttle down significantly.
I started noticing this by looking at windows task manager and noticing the CPU would not scale above 0.8 GHz. Not sure if Chrome responds in the same way, but it’s worth looking into. Fix was easy, just get a proper wattage power supply (i went with oem)
A similar example: Microsoft's Windows Search function is so pathetic and slow, yet there's another little company who gives a blazing fast file search tool, that's available as (portable) freeware since 15+ years.
Everything Search uses the NTFS indexes to do blazing fast file or folder searches. It has a neat and clean interface, and no nagging ads (unlike.. cough, cough.. Windows 11). Everything Search is one of the first tools I install on any new Windows PC.
Amazing, perfect app! I use it frequently, and I love the response I get from customers or friends whom I turn onto it (or install it for).
I also encourage others to donate to this developer. The sad thing is casual users would not even think of donating as they assume this type of feature should be (properly) built into the OS; so I’ve made sure to donate on behalf of users I’ve turned on to Everything. Great app!
I was overjoyed when I saw that Microsoft had bought out the small Winternals team (Winternals Software LP, founded by Cogswell and Russinovich, who exposed the 2005 Sony BMG CD copy-protection DRM) that gave awesome freeware "power tools" to tweak and monitor MS-Windows. Microsoft renamed it as SysInternals, and Microsoft has since maintained it well and still kept it all free.
Everything Search is free, powerful and fast, and thankfully, unlike some other famous tools (CCleaner), it is not adware, spyware or malware. The only caveat, is that Everything Search's background indexing of drives requires administrative access, but user can run it without admin access, it's just that it would need to manually reindex (to add latest files/folders to its index database) on every run then.
For years, I have wished that Microsoft would acquire Voidtools (give them a good chunk of money for all the years of service they gave to the world in the form of this awesome freeware Everything Search), and integrated it into Microsoft Windows Search (to make it a rival to MacOS's Spotlight search) to make it blazing fast and finally useful.
(Remember, Microsoft acquired Skype and integrated its capabilities into MS Teams, which is available free for personal use, with some limitations (60mins session limit, 100 participants).)
It was VERY common in the spinning rust era to already open (office, etc) applications in the background. I think the launch operation only allocated window resources and finished the job; all the hit the disk work was already precached in memory while the OS was doing the slow computer starting up / logging into the network steps and the user was off getting a coffee or something.
Same experience here, but I'm not sure it's just MS fault; companies have a way of installing a bunch of stupid software on top of one another, that you can't get rid of without admin rights, that continuously do things that slow the system down.
(And, you can have a tabbed file browser on Win7. I still have a Win7 box at home that works perfectly well and that does have tabs in file explorer. I think it was an addon I installed a while ago; don't remember exactly, but it works perfectly.)
What I’ve seen as an older-than-average developer is that the Agile movement has made it increasingly difficult to make time for paying attention to some of the more subtle aspects of user experience such as performance. Because I can’t predict how much work it will be accurately enough to assign story points to the task, and that means that this kind of work frequently results in a black spot on our team performance metrics.
CD makes it even harder because this kind of work really does need some time to bake. Fast iterations don’t leave much time to verify that performance-oriented changes have the intended effect and no adverse side effects prior to release.
I think this is another of those spots where the difference between agile with a little an and Agile with a big À comes to the forefront.
Little a agile is about pushing back against dysfunctional business dynamics for the sake of humanistic goals like employees’ mental health and doing right by customers.
Big À Agile co-opts that, and is more about squeezing as much money out of everyone as possible while wearing the trappings of agile values to make it seem more palatable.
Microsoft is progressively making everything an instance of Chrome. They've seemingly altogether given up the notion of native platform rendering. The win32 api for native ui elements hasn't been touched in two decades. There have been a few failed attempts to move on from it like Siverlight, WinForms, UWP, LightSwitch, etc, but they never bothered to revisit their native UI library. So now everything is a Chrome instance.
Started a new job about a year and a half ago and got a powerful laptop with a really top of the line CPU and GPU, 64 GB of RAM (Now upgraded to 96GB, needed for my work, even with these specs compile times are longer than I'd like...), and it was a terrible experience, coming from someone who's used to Linux having used it for a bit (started in 2013 with Ubuntu with a dual boot. Moved all-in to Arch in 2016, distro-hopped or played with different desktop enviroments/wms after that (Recently switched to niri), but all of which are leagues ahead of Windows 11 IMO. Only occasionally ran Windows on a spare device or a VM on the rare occasion I needed to, eg for work / school.)
Tons of issues, slow in some operations, weird bugs (in the explorer like you, or with my Bluetooth headphones, or other issues), and even occasional blue screens! It's not just my setup too, my coworkers have similar issues. Plus, it just isn't a nice environment to use.
At first, I tried to set up a nicer environment (as much as IT would allow). I installed PowerToys for QOL improvements, GlazeWM to emulate a tiling window manager setup, I tried debloating as much as I can, I installed Wezterm for my terminal (Why is Windows Terminal so hyped up? It seems like an extremely basic terminal emulator to me...), oh-my-posh theming for my shell, and several other things.
But every convenience program I added just noticeably slowed down my laptop, to the point I just gave up some of the niceties and lived with it. Why is such basic functionality able to be run so smoothly on a much weaker device on Linux, but struggle on Windows on a much more powerful device? I can only think of one reason...
More a reply to few fellow comments:
I have few Win 11 hosts that I use. No management software other than just antivirus.
90% of them are super slow, on every hardware. The latest super-feature on one of them is empty Task Manager. It just doesn’t display a single process.
Of course Process Explorer works, open faster and show all data without thinking how to display table with 500 rows for dozens of seconds.
> Half the time I can smack Esc and Snipping Tool will go away. The other half of the time, I have to mouse over and click the X to close it. There is no pattern to when Esc does/doesn't work.
What I have noticed is to let it load the snipping UI first and start listening for your keystrokes. If you hit escape really quickly, right after you accidentally hit print screen, it will not go away and require you to manually mouse over and hit the X. But if you wait for a second and then hit escape, it almost always registers my keystroke. It's almost like hitting escape really quickly just quits the keyboard listener instead of the actual snipping tool.
I don't know, my personal windows install which I use for photoshop, lightroom, and the occasional game also has similar issues, and it only has the included windows defender. I've noticed on many computers that whenever there are a bunch of files in a directory, the explorer grinds to a halt.
At work we use clownstrike for our driving-around-with-the-handbrake-on needs, which I have installed on both Linux and Windows, and the former flies while the latter lags all the time (I dual boot, so it's the same exact hardware). Doing something which is fully equivalent, like installing an IntelliJ update takes around a minute on Linux and many more on Windows.
The fan also comes on much more often on Windows than Linux, even though most of my job is done on remote servers via SSH. Under Linux I only hear the fan when I compile something. This morning I booted windows and the fan was running constantly while I was just catching up with a few mails in outlook.
On my company provided laptop with Windows 11 (previously Windows 10), the top three CPU usage was and is usually from Antimalware Executable, Microsoft Defender and MS Teams (or Crowdstrike). I don’t download files or get files from other sources often, yet these things keep doing busywork and slowing things down. Despite virus and threat protection running quick scans often and forcing a full disk scan every couple of weeks or so.
It’s almost as if these programs are people who ought to show that they’re doing something even though they’re just heating the room and running the fan.
Task manager takes 10 seconds to load the list of processes.
Right-click on the desktop takes about 1.5-2 seconds to show the 'new' context menu.
Start menu is actually fast to start drawing but has a stupid animation that takes about half a second to fully load.
I sort of understand how the anti-consumer 'features' (ads) get added to a piece of software. But I have no idea how they manage to continuously degrade the experience of existing parts of the system for seemingly no one's benefit.
My wife recently got a new laptop. She mostly just uses office and the browser so I gave her some specs to look for SSD, 16GB ram, Lenovo should be good (fatal mistake I didn't specify the CPU). She went out and bought a cheap Lenovo laptop with a Celeron dual core and 16GB ram, SSD. It can barely run windows 11. Everything slows to a crawl, she can't be on a video call, and have a google doc open at the same time. It's insane and frankly should be criminal to sell such a poorly performing piece of hardware.
It's so bad that she actually switches to her old laptop from 10 years ago (still on windows 10, also a dual core) for video calls, and it performs way better.
The engineers working on Windows should be embarrassed. I may just try to load ChromeOS on it. Would be nice to get Windows out of my house for good.
Yeah, those things are born e-waste. I'm surprised Intel even bothers. Even on Linux they would varely play an HD Youtube video if it weren't for the hardware acceleration. A dual core from several years ago, assuming it's a proper i5 or i7, will do a lot better.
> Even on Linux they would varely play an HD Youtube video if it weren't for the hardware acceleration.
Video decoding has always been a brutal workload, but that isn't Microsoft's fault. I had to replace my Thinkpad X220 with an X270 for no reason at all except h.265. It's a ULV i5 too, so the perf is almost identical to the old laptop's... until you watch video on it.
h.265 can get annoyingly heavy, but the better compression isn't coming from nowhere. But for less powerful machines, H.264 works just fine and works back far enough that even I got surprised. Even LGA 775 machines will do that just fine, and h.264 is more or less a constant lowest common denominator.
If it can't play a blu-ray off CPU, then it's either so old that DVDs were the media du jour, or it was never meant to be in a general-purpose computer. They'll do e-mail and Office in a pinch, and they'll play video within their limits, but venture outside for anything else, and it all comes crashing down.
Me and my fiancé both bought Lenovo laptops with 16GB RAM and 5000-series Ryzen, 500 GB SSD. They were on sale, and the price seemed nice.
Some of the Windows 11 features are laughably, hilariously slow. If I enter anything in the taskbar search, it will take a solid 6-7 seconds for the app to appear in the result. The result window will just be blank. If I press enter after having typed in, the app will start - but still, it is so, so laggy.
And some weird flicker when running certain applications. It was like that out of the box, and I feared I had gotten a defective screen - nope, only certain apps.
If you wife would be OK with ChromeOS, basically all she needs is a browser. I just installed Linux on the computer my wife is using. For a while she was on Ubuntu and then once she got used to it, I replaced Ubuntu with Debian (because I use Debian everywhere: NUCs, laptop, dekstops, servers, hypervisor (Proxmox, which is debian), etc.). It's easier for me to just slap Debian everywhere but YMMV.
People have no idea the amount of people who nowadays only need a browser (and working sound/microphone: but that nowadays Just Works [TM] on Linux).
It's never been easier to switch people to Linux than it is today.
> If my computer goes to sleep, WSL becomes unresponsive. I have to save all my stuff and reboot to continue working.
Try wsl --shutdown. Works for me when WSL hangs for no apparent reason.
I've also noticed that, in my case, these hangs are somehow tied to Docker for Windows. Couldn't figure what triggers them so far, though. I just restart DFW and kill WSL when that happens.
Restarting the vmcompute service sometimes helps. Doing so completely blue/blackscreened my machine this morning so it just makes me more confident in WSL's low level hooks.
I vibe-coded my own apple system-6 style shell in rust and use that. If I don't like a feature, I change it. It is lightning quick, in it's (emulated) 1-bit glory. There's no requirement for you to use the built-in explore.exe to launch things, even for games. The graphics are decoupled from the shell so I use it for windows and linux.
If vibe coding your personal GUI utopia is too much, you can use something like Cairo - https://cairoshell.com/
I'd recommend Chris Titus' winutil to remove most of the crap. I use the recommended settings and also remove copilot and onedrive.
Then from there you can open O&O Shutup10 and disable a few more "features".
It's just a band-aid not a solution, and you'll have to run it again after Windows updates and helpfully undoes your settings, but at least makes it usable.
I'm definitely not defending Windows but when I ran Windows 10 Pro for 11 years straight, I had no problem with performance.
We're talking a 4 core i5-4460, with 16 GB of memory and an SSD running WSL 2, Docker Desktop, real work loads, video editing, etc..
It was very performant and never got in my way. I'd leave the computer on 24 / 7 and only the monitors turned off. It only got rebooted for forced Windows patches.
With that said, my hardware can't run 11 and even if I did patch around that, I'm choosing not to run 11 so Windows for me was over near the end of 2025.
I'm running Arch now on the same box and except for GPU memory leaks, it's quite snappy. CPU intensive tasks finish faster and disk I/O feels even faster than Windows. There's also unlimited flexibility to tweak things however I see fit. Gaming performance is substantially worse for the few games I play. No regrets, except for gaming.
If you had 16 GB of RAM, yeah Windows 10 was mostly fine. The laptop I had in high school was rocking 4 GB and a first-gen i5. Windows 7 was rock solid on that machine, but 10 brought it to its knees. Sandy Bridge fared much, much better, to be fair, but the jump from "4GB is enough" to "8GB is pushing your luck" was not pleasant, as I recall it.
Oh yeah, 4 GB would be really rough on Windows 10.
The machine I had before this one had 2 GB of RAM and I ran Windows 7 on it. It had a Core 2 Duo E6420 CPU and GeForce 9800 GTX+. I remember things being mostly ok for playing a bunch of games back then but struggled when I tried to run VMs which makes sense given 2 GB of RAM.
It was that machine that taught me not to skimp on RAM. The last few years of that machine's life started to get pressured pretty hard with memory requirements and having 4 GB would have solved all of those problems. That's why when I built this machine I went with 16 GB, back in 2014 still running Windows 7.
Windows does allow you to enter Chinese characters when you say your language is Chinese.
I have moved to Bazzite at home but it is ridiculous that you can't just use your language right away. A normal person would just bail out.
If you choose Chinese, all of the content is localized but you have to enable an input method and that doesn't even actually allow you to input Chinese characters!
It shows you a scrolling(!) pop-up that tells you you have to enable a different option in order to type in the language that you chose at the very beginning. Hope you didn't choose the wrong one out of ibus, fcitx and fcitx(wayland experimental) – whatever happened to scim, and xim, I miss editing environment variables.
Even the cheapest Android gadget can do this out of the box.
Your work laptop might have an excessive amount of "security" software installed that causes it to lag far more than it would normally without such bloated software installed that runs in the background and slows down practically every process you do with the machine.
> what does Windows 11 even do that KDE Plasma 5 wasn't doing a decade ago? How did it take this long to get a tabbed file browser?
Management features like application based firewall. Dedicated views in explorer tailored for common file types, automatic view type based on content, plus tile view. Proper title bar customisation. Contextual Ribbon toolbars and to be honest, good menus in general. Have a professional UI designer try KDE and I'm pretty sure they'll have a migraine. Also Win32 in general, Wayland still has a loooong way ahead of it.
A lot of these accounts seem anecdotal. I have a clean copy of win 11 iot ltsc running on my laptop and it runs well. The desktop management, included hyper V, wsl2 and awesome RDP make it a great platform to get work done. Most problems people encounter with Windows have to do with driver maturity. And in the case of a mega corp managed machine its all the “security” bs the put on there that slows you down to a crawl.Once you get stable drivers; I find Windows 11,with wsl as my shell, to be quite nice.
Well yes, it is anecdotal. After all, it's my personal experience, which is, by definition, an anecdote. At what point did I suggest the exact types of bullshit Win11 exposes me to are exactly the same as everyone else experiences?
About hitting the print screen button by accident. I have the same issue and like you I can sometimes get out of it by hitting ESC. I think this sometimes fails because the snipping app isn't in focus (even though it's covering the entire screen).
The trick I found to get out of it is to hit ALT+TAB. It ironically puts another app into focus and when that happens, the snipping tool exits. Snipping tool is pretty great though. I wish macOS had the same.
What's snipping tool have over macOS's super-shift-5 (or 4 or 3)? I would usually put Greenshot on any Windows box I'm gonna have to use a while, and that seems to pretty much have feature parity with all my slurp+grim Sway keybinds on GNU/Linux.
It's very minor but, with the Snipping Tool, the screenshot automatically ends up in the clipboard after dragging the box. As far as I know with macos I have to open the preview and copy it from there. There may be an option in macos to get the same behavior but I don't know about it.
My work laptop does the same thing. Pretty maxed out for a Dell but still can be slow, especially right click context menu. Someone else said it could be endpoint software (executable scanning?) which makes sense. things improved a bit after a I turned off the eye candy under appearance settings other than font rendering and shadowing. Might be worth a try.
Had the same issue with slow file explorer in Windows 10. A couple of things helped a bit, such as disabling "Show recently used files" and "Show frequently used folders". I also cleaned up the Quick access list. For some reason if you have a network share there it makes browsing local dirs slower, go figure. It's still not instant but a lot faster than the 3+ second delay.
I tried OneCommander and they're super fast, so it's not something slowing down disk IO, it's purely File Explorer.
Now I'm still struggling with closing chrome tabs being super slow sometimes.
Please try https://filepilot.tech/
Its like explorer but so much faster in every single way.
I have it pinned on the taskbar, it launches quickly than a new explorer window.
Main one is no-multiline support atm. Which means that the icon view does not show full file name, list view etc are perfectly fine though.
Current problems I have with it are no native zip support, which means you must use 7-zip, winrar etc and set them as a defualt viewer for zips. Otherwise, double clicking zip opens the explorer.exe.
I noticed significant slowdown on my home computer, so I did some optimization - namely turning off some services.
AI related things, one drive (this could be one of the reasons file browser is slow), widgets on the screen like news and weather, some other optional/not needed things.
They added a lot of not needed crap to File Manager. I think it's almost better to install a third party one.
This is why I don't get so many of the "windows is fine" arguments here. It's always "Windows is fine if you run LTSC and dick around with the registry and disable these 37 specific services." If I'm going to have to futz with it constantly, why would I pay money for the privilege?
It's more likely network calls that are taking a long time or timing out. A lot of developers insert function calls that under the hood hit HTTP servers, and it can take a few hundred milliseconds to stand up a new TLS connection and then however long it takes to send the request and get the response. It's also probable that the endpoints form an accidental microservice architecture in which case everyone is always hitting a different set of connections. This creates a perfect storm of having to reconnect to everything you hit occasionally which can create little slowdowns all over the place all without actually using CPU so it doesn't show up in any resource monitors.
HTTPS calls should be treated as calls to sleep() with undefined timings.
Honestly - I think it must be a laptop thing. I have a similar spec laptop [0] for work, and it's... borderline unusable. I can ignore the upsells, always online, etc but the OS is just fundamentally falling apart more and more every other release. If I unplug the power cable, it throttles itself to the point of being neutered, and if I try to put it to sleep it _very regularly_ will just stay awake and drain its own battery.
My work desktop on the other hand (i9, 64GB ram, 4080 GPU) is absolutely screaming and I have some of the same problems but they're nowhere near as bad.
I don't think I could genuinely buy another windows laptop.
> if I try to put it to sleep it _very regularly_ will just stay awake and drain its own battery
Sadly Linux isn't any better on this front because it's a hardware issue. Laptop vendors have gotten terrible at managing sleep states. S0 sleep is a joke. I changed my laptop to hibernate on lid close after the second time it nearly cooked itself in my bag.
Had similar issu. Windows 11 installed two gpu driver that run parallel. Cpu etc was on low but everything was lacking.
did go to safe mode and deinstalled drivers and reinstalled them. Windows installed them again even with me doing everything it didnt... whatever now i have mac and it sucks also but doesnt lag that hard.
> If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else.
I purchased a Surface Pro at one point, with the intention of using it for sketches and using Windows on it, thinking it'll be better because the hardware and OS is from the same organization. Nope! Slow out of the box, horrible thermal management and software bugs galore. Installed Arch with Gnome on it, ran better in most aspects. However, pen usage and touchscreen even after I tried my best to adjust it was worse than Windows, I guess they won there.
I didn't use to hate Windows, because at least it wasn't utterly broken, just stupid, but they're really in a deep decline lately. Maybe it's time for one of those "stop the press" type of moments where they have to stop, take a serious look and fix what they have as it currently feels impossible to use reliably.
Possible but more likely it's an issue with focus, like the user's palm on those occasions coincidentally brushes the trackpad.
To be clear, I have no doubt Windows 11 is just as awful as GP makes it out to be. I'm luckily free to choose my OS and at this point wouldn't touch Windows with a 10' pole.
If it's Intel then it might not be fully down to Windows 11. The PC laptops are universally crap. I had a few latest ones, Ultra 9 and they are atrocious. Experience reminds me using a netbook in early 2010s.
I would refuse to work anywhere without a Mac. If x86 then it would have to be linux, as that would be passable (apart from fan noise).
The Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake platforms are finally really good again, comparable to AMD. Fast and power efficient. Before Lunar Lake they were pretty much crap, I agree.
Corporate probably loaded up the laptop with work monitoring software, and some terrible AV software. Among other bloatware. A PC of your spec should run without noticeable delay, something else is going on there.
Having said that, Windows has made a lot of the basic functionality way to resource heavy.
Another common issue on corporate-issued workstation laptops is that they don’t install the proper GPU drivers. The basic ones that ship with the OS are awful, but work just well enough that people don’t notice that they’re missing something important.
KDE is bloated garbage too! Half of the OS didn't work. The only DE's that I haven't had poor experiences with are xfce, bspwm, i3/i3gaps, and xmonad. Note how 3 of these are tiling WMs.
This was me in 2022 or 2023. I have posted on HN about my shift a few times. I gave up with Windows 10 because you needed Windows Pro in order to make an "offline" account, I spent $2000+ for a gaming rig, and I couldn't add new users, one program told me to use the other program which brought me back to the original program... I had to go out of my way, buy a license just to make it work. I just went and installed Linux finally. I was on POP_OS! for a good year, but been on Arch Linux for one year plus now.
I know its a "meme" to talk about how great Arch is, but when you want the latest of something, Arch has it. I use EndeavourOS since it had a nicer simpler installer (idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro) and if you just use "yay" you don't run into Pacman woes.
Alternatively, I'm only buying Macs as well, but for my gaming rigs, straight to Arch. Steam and Proton work perfectly, if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
> if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
So much this. People like to moan about "oh game XYZ doesn't run so it's not reasonable for gaming". More games run on GNU / Linux than any gaming console. There are simply too many games that do run to give a second thought about the ones that don't, and it's been that way for years.
The giant bugbear in this conversation is always multiplayer. That's because almost all of the big players in that space currently favor rootkits in the form of overly invasive anti-cheat, which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
If you don't play PvP specifically, the rest of the library is significantly more open to you. Personally I have always favored single player experiences and indie games from smaller studios, and for the most part those run great.
It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.
So if you can go without those games or don't play MMOs that is rootkits then switch to force their hand.
Besides, them installing a rootkit on your machine is not an acceptable practice anyways. It's a major security issue. Sometimes we need to make a stand. Everyone has a line, where's yours?
MMOs are actually fine. WoW, FFXIV, RuneScape, all work great on Linux. They’re not really games that rely on hidden information, are not pvp first and need to simulate stuff on the server anyway, so can verify moves are valid there.
It’s the competitive progression shooters and ranked esports games that go in for the restrictive anti-cheat
Even within competitive shooters there’s still plenty that run great on Linux. 90% of my time spent gaming is on Overwatch or CS2, and I’ve found that both ran significantly better on my Debian 13 installation than they ever did on Win11.
And it's worth noting that CS2 is still the most played game on Steam. It has double the players of the second most played game, Dota 2, which also works on Linux. And that has double the player base of the number 3 game, Arc Raiders, which also works great on Linux.
The idea that you'll be missing out is ill founded. Yes, there are some games that won't work. PUBG, Bongo Cat, Rust[0], and EA Sports FC 26 are the ones on the top 10 multiplayer list. But it's also not like you don't have plenty of massively popular games to choose from.
I'll even say don't switch to Linux, just stop playing these abusive games. Honestly, if you're unwilling to change OSes but willing to do this then people that want to jump ship can. We all win from this behavior. Even you as it discourages Windows from shoving in more junk and discourages publishers like EA from shoving in massive security vulnerabilities like rootkits. I mean we've all seen how glitchy many AAA games are, you really think their other software isn't going to be just as unpolished and bug ridden?
This is true in principle but most gamers are just gonna take the path of least resistance. If they can't play fortnite on Linux (I'm using an example, I don't know if it's actually unplayable on Linux) then they will use whatever OS lets them play.
People have been saying "vote with your wallet" every time gaming companies do something anti consumer like day one dlc or buggy releases (don't pre-order!) or $90 games, but gaming companies continue to push the envelope on what gamers will pay for because gamers keep paying for it.
There's another way. Only a small portion of friends need to change to pull the rest of the group. Pull them to a game that runs on Linux.
Don't do it like "let's play this game because it runs on Linux" do it like "let's play this game because it's fun".
If you want to be the one to lead this change you have to do extra work. Dual boot Linux and find a game that's fun that you can do online. Find the other friend or two in your group that will do the same (at least play the game, Linux is optional but encouraged for this subset). Just play together for a bit, give it a trial run. Then when playing the other game with the larger group say "hey, so and so and I have been playing this game, you guys should play with us sometime". They don't have to install Linux, just play a new game that their friends are already playing. That's why they're there, to play games with their friends. Don't try to get them to switch to Linux, just play games with your friends. You might have a holdout but if most people move then everyone will. But if you want to do that move you have to find what works and at least one other friend to give it a trial (who won't need to do as much work as you). That's how you do it. No crazy scheme and honestly not massive amounts of work either. Just the normal process of finding new games to play with one constraint. It just seems complicated because I stated the process explicitly.
I don't play a lot of online games anymore, but when I did, it wasn't just because friends were playing it. It was because it was fun, it was part of the cultural zeitgeist, it's popular, the community is fun, etc. You can't really replace something like that with just "another game," no matter how fun the other game is.
I agree. But I think there are a lot of fun games. Plenty of them on Linux.
> it was part of the cultural zeitgeist
This is the harder part, but we are in an age where there are a lot of games. I think you'll be surprised to see the games that do work on Linux[0]. Looking at the most played multiplayer games on Steam[1] (in order): (1) Counterstrike, (2) Dota 2, (3) Arc Raiders, (5) Terraria, (8) Grand Theft Auto, and (9) Marvel Rivals all have good proton support. What doesn't work in the top 10 are (4) PUBG, (6) Bongo Cat, and (10) EA Sports FC 26. (7) Rust supposedly works, but only on Linux supported servers (smaller user base).
> it's popular,
The point I'm making here is that while you may not get to be part of every cultural zeitgeist, you can still participate in the 3 most popular ones and more than half of the top 10. Frankly, most people won't be able to participate in every zeitgeist for any number of reasons (cost, hardware, restrictions, etc). But I think considering this you don't have to fear being left out.
Maybe you're obsessed with PUBG or Battlefield and then yeah, Linux isn't going to work for you. That's okay! But looking at the numbers, for most people, they can still be a part of all the cultural excitement. It's not going to work for everyone, and that's okay! If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. But I want to make sure we can distinguish real blockers from ones Microslop and EA want you to believe in.
> the community is fun
I think this is less of a blocker than you might think. Honestly, in my experience smaller communities tend to be more fun. They develop their own close knit culture. You've been on HN a long time and seen it grow. Isn't that a similar reason you come here?
> You can't really replace something like that with just "another game," no matter how fun the other game is.
You're right, but again, I think there are fewer blockers than you think. I can't tell you if those blockers are real or not because what is a blocker comes down to you and your personal interpretations of all those variables. But if you're frustrated with Windows and the system, why not give it a try? You don't even have to switch to Linux to pressure the studios to change. Just spending more time playing games like Counterstrike or Arc Raiders than games like PUBG or Battlefield. And if you play more games like the former you make it easier for others that are thinking about making the jump. But hey, if PUBG or Battlefield is your jam and you don't want to try anything else, then no worries. You do you.
There's one more important thing I want to bring up. I think it is important to ask "where is your line?" How much junk can Winblows shove in before you're willing to make sacrifices? Is EA installing a rootkit enough of a security concern where you won't take it? What is? You don't need to tell me what the answers are to these questions. What's important is that you yourself know where these lines are beforehand. The lines are personal and unique to you. People are going to have other lines than you and that's completely fine. I just ask you think about what conditions would cause you to make sacrifices? That way if they happen you can respond.
> Looking at the most played multiplayer games on Steam
Note that this is skipping over some extremely popular games which aren't on Steam. Notably Fortnite, Roblox, League of Legends, Valorant, and everything else from Riot Games, none of which work on Linux. From the Steam examples there's also some grey areas, GTA5 singleplayer works but multiplayer does not, and Counterstrike works on official servers but not on Faceit servers, where a lot of serious competitive play happens.
You're right to bring up the limits, but I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not trying to say that everyone can and should switch. But I am saying that the costs are probably less than one might think.
The costs of switching can only be answered at the individual level. No one can answer for you. But people can state their experiences and help you understand the costs and benefits.
Let's make sure we can accurately understand the costs and benefits and differentiate from imaginary ones.
I also said that you can take a stand without switching to Linux. Maybe the costs are too high for you right now. But maybe the costs of meeting up with your friends to play Dota rather than League is easy. At the end of the day the costs are due to the network effects. You can reduce those costs slowly and make it easier for others to jump ship without you needing to, which makes it easier for you to jump ship in the future if things change. The same is true for social media. Maybe you can't break from Instagram as you have too many contacts where that's your only way to communicate with them. But you can still encourage others to text you, Signal message you, or whatever. This still reduces the power of that network.
Here's the thing: the less sticky platforms are the better it is for everyone. I'm not going to tell you that you aren't going to have to put in more effort, but I will criticize you if you think that effort is insurmountable. I will also say that this is also part of our social duty. If something like using Signal instead of Instagram to communicate with your friend because they want to is "too hard" for you, then I envy the life you have where such trivial actions are your biggest concerns. If trying new games with friends who want to try new games is "too much" for you, then I think you should question if you're an addict.
I'm not saying you have to switch. I'm not saying you have to play certain games and not others. But you do have to be open to changing things and recognize that if you don't then you're creating a doomed self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're unwilling to have the slightest inconveniences then the enshitification and dystopia is on you. If you are unwilling to have the slightest inconveniences then you have no right to complain as you are the one preventing that change. But also, if you don't have any of those concerns of enshitification and tech dystopia then you have every right to stand your ground and not be inconvenienced. But I want to make the conditions clear. We live in a society. The society has a duty to you and you have a duty to the society. You don't just get to take and give nothing back.
First off, a hell of a lot more of those top 50 are unplayable. But more importantly the thing that you are ignoring is that every single one works on Windows. By choosing to use Linux you are choosing to not be able to play these games and an unknown number of future games for... what? If you only have a PC to play games with your friends, what could possibly be more important to you than the ability to play games with your friends?
This isn't about me though. I game on Linux. I love it. My original reply was to this in your comment
> It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.
The whole point of this subthread is that companies are not going to make Linux compatible games as long as there are customers OK with installing root kits on their companies to play their games. And most gamers are ok with that line being crossed. It sucks for the rest of us, but capitalism gonna capitalism.
I apologize for misunderstanding your comment, but I hope mine still stands to help others recognize the issues you brought up aren't as large as some may actually believe. I agree with you, companies that abuse us, the users, want to amplify that fear. It empowers them. It's why I am encouraging anyone who reads my comment to ask themselves where that line is. Personally I'm with you, the line has already been crossed. I've made the move and don't regret it for a second. Nothing changes for the better when no one is willing to take the first step.
> Don't do it like "let's play this game because it runs on Linux" do it like "let's play this game because it's fun".
Indeed! i have some online and irl buddies who aren't on linux that i've got playing games like veloren with me, simply because they are good games. i've got loads of hours in games like veloren, luanti, xonotic, pokeMMO, and osu! for example lol and encourage everyone to check those games out if they're up their alley. :)
You assume I have friends. Or at least, friends that care about video games.
Besides, more likely is that I leave to do my own thing, 0-1 peers joins me for a bit, then we all kinda drift away. Friendships in this era are much more ephemeral.
I want to step away from the conversation about Linux
Honestly, I'm disheartened to hear this. Frankly, those don't sound like friends, or at least close friends. If a friendship can evaporate by the simple act of wanting to try another game, then it barely seems like a friendship and it seems like those will evaporate as soon as the next popular game comes about. I don't want to tell you to abandon your existing friends but I would encourage you to find friends you can have stronger bonds with. To have closer relationships. Hard truth is you need to put in work to make this happen. It doesn't matter what games you play or on what platform: everyone deserves to have deep human relationships. I really do hope you can find some friends. I hope the friendships you do have are stronger than you have conveyed because frankly, as humans, we all need close friends.
That's most how most of my life has been in a nutshell; it isn't limited to games. Schools,college, old coworkers. A lot of the glue comes undone the moment you need to move on. I'm a late Millenial, but the advent of social media among Gen Z gave us the ability to connect more intimately than ever over the most niche topics. But at the cost of losing the deep bonds you'd normally form then bundled with a community based on proximity.
I've had long conversations with some former guild mates yet can't point you to a name or face. I know quite a few never even lived in my country. But things loosen up once the game shuts down or one of us needs to move on. It's neat in some ways, hollow in others.
On the larger scale, it's why local community is also weaker than ever. No one really puts and effort to come down to community events, or they may come once or twice and never again. Those gatherings are also less frequent than ever, often once a month. You can't really form a deep bond meeting once a month. So meetups end up frustrating in their own way (at least, the tech meetup. Maybe a run club would be different).
I've even heard notions that it's easier to find a mate than a close friend these days. I can completely believe it.
I'm also in my 30s so I get it. The only real advice I can give is that it just takes more work to maintain friends as we get older. I had to be the one reaching out rather than waiting for others to reach out to me.
The other thing is recognize where friendships came from. Most of it was just being physically near people. Sitting in the same classrooms day to day. If work doesn't create that space (or isn't good enough or you want to distance from work) you need something else that does the same thing. Join a club. Set up weekly beers with your friends. Or literally anything that puts you in the same physical space with the same people, routinely. A friend of mine gets together with his gamer friends once a year and they socialize off the game too.
The convenience of social media is also its weakness. The ease of connecting makes it just as easy to disconnect.
Real friendships require work. That's true of any relationship. I'll tell you my friends can be annoying and exhausting, but I love them and I'll gladly put up with their shit to keep them around. After all, who else is going to put up with my bullshit? lol
>Real friendships require work. That's true of any relationship.
indeed. Perhaps that is part of my frustration. Friendships can also be a 2 way street, and it can feel like I'm putting in a lot more effort than the other party when it comes to trying to form them. I don't expect 50/50 effort, but when it's 95/5, are they a friend or simply a familiar guest?
Maybe I need to accept that the tech circles here aren't going to have that deep bond and expand. But I'll admit that the job hunt also slowed down my efforts to break out of my comfort zone.
I feel your pain, as someone in their mid-30s, and also a new dad. It's trite to say that it's hard to make friends in your 30s but it really is true. Between career, family, and just day-to-day life, it's really hard to form connections that are any more than just superficial.
What works for me is finding communities. I participate in Toastmasters, which meets every week (one meets twice a month), and it's a good way to make connections with people and get to know them better. It's also fun because there's people of many walks of life. Retirees, college students, business owners, executives, everyone in between. It's a great way to meet people I probably wouldn't have otherwise met in tech circles.
The market for multiplayer games, shooters especially, is already a mess, because people don't want to play a game that doesn't have an infinite pool of players to matchmake into, or a game that doesn't have all their cosmetics, or... etc. etc.
So this ends up being easier said than done. I've had success, but that's my friend group out of however many.
Try to find a shooter with a playerbase that doesn't use EAC/etc. - it's a crapshoot, unfortunately. You've got Valve's stuff and one or two outliers, but if those don't meet your group's genre needs, you're whomped.
i like a few multiplayer shooters, fortnite being one of them. i also exclusively use gnu/linux on my machines, so i got around this issue of games like fortnite/battlefield/etc issue a long time ago by simply doing what i've always done for years, playing these on xbox. i even 'stream' these games to my linux machine from my xbox if i want to play them from the computer with the xbox controller, and can join and create xbox live parties through the xbox web interface.
i only do this for those couple of games i play with friends that won't support linux because of the aforementioned rootkit it wants to run on windows machines. console for those games, and all my other games run happily either through steam+proton or natively on linux, and there are a fair few FOSS games with amazing multiplayer. i love luanti, xonotic, openarena, veloren, etc, and play them frequently with some friends. :)
1. The audience is mostly kids. They can't buy any premium games easily (and is the lens for the rest of my points)
2. Network effects. Works as well on them as any of us. Especially in a world that makes it more and more hostile to have them meet IRL.
3. It's a generation raised on "forever games". They are used to games they pick up and will continually play for years. Games that will always provide new stuff for them. They fundamentally have different habits from Millenials.
4. Mobile support. So many kids play on mobile. So they are even more isolated from the consple market.
I empathize with the question. But you are essentially asking *why do people want to use instagram and not any other one of millions social media app?*
Even this framing is silly, if you have a PC to game there are not enough pros to choose Linux. You are giving up the ability to play some popular games and increasing the amount of effort required to play another chunk of them in exchange for what? A snappier file browser? Fewer anti-consumer dark patterns? It's not about "path of least resistance" it just flat out isn't worth it.
This is a gross reduction of why people choose Linux. People don't choose it just for a snappier file browser and fewer anti-consumer dark patterns.
1. games that install what amounts to be rootkits on my computer are not ok
2. windows potentially spying on my data without my consent is not ok
If you wanna label these as dark patterns, that's fine, but let's not pretend that this behavior is ok.
I like playing games. But I like privacy and security more than playing games, which is why I have a linux gaming machine and a PS5. Some people would rather just play games and not worry about the other stuff, which is understandable for the reasons you mentioned.
This is overestimating the amount of effort involved to game on Linux, imo. It is true that there are a couple games using kernel-level anticheat which preclude their working on linux, but for the most part the effort required to play games on Linux now is zero if it's a Steam game and almost zero elsewhere.
Delta Force used to work but also doesn't anymore (still marked Bronze), people are tinkering with config files but nothing seems to work https://www.protondb.com/app/2507950
GTA V public lobbies don't work, requires you to tweak launch options, disable battleeye anticheat, seems to just not work for some people. https://www.protondb.com/app/271590
It goes on and on these were just from the first few games sorted by player count. Much of the tweaking seems to be different person to person, sometimes it just works sometimes it's Nvidia's fault, sometimes it's something totally different. There's a "recommended for tinkerers" option for reviews. To be clear, every single one of these works right out of the box first time on Windows.
PROTON_DISABLE_D3D12: Disables DirectX12
There are also D3D11, D3D10, D3D9 options too
PROTON_HIDE_NVIDIA_GPU=1: Tells the game you have an AMD GPU instead of Nvidia
The default setting is that Proton hides the GPU, so this option here is superfluous.
-force-d3d11: forces usage of DirectX11
This is already going to happen because you disabled DirectX12
People are copy pasting settings and sharing but not actually looking at any docs. Disabling DirectX12 is going to give you a pretty good success rate of making a game work if it doesn't work out of the box.
Also, let's be clear about what those rankings mean on ProtonDB
Native: Just works
i.e. Devs are cool
Platinum: Just works (but is using Proton)
i.e. Valve has got this shit handled
Gold: Works but you either need to use proton experimental or change an option that someone has already figured out.
i.e. Community has figured it out, Valve is tweaking.
Note that many people are on Proton Experimental by default so possibly that's why it "just works" for them.
Silver: Very likely to work with a setting someone has listed.
i.e. Community and Valve working on it
Bronze: People are figuring it out, leave it to your friends that know Linux
i.e. Sorry, you're probably out of luck. Leave it to the tinkerers
Borked: Publisher is actively working against the community.
i.e. EA hates you
I'm not trying to say everything works on Linux. It doesn't. But let's also not pretend that it is worse than it is. That's the same error in the other direction. Linux is not the right choice for everyone, but it is a good choice for many people.
You're implying that 'clicking the cog icon > properties > and then copy pasting some text into a text box' is overly burdensome. To be frank, if you believe that then not only is Linux not for you, but neither are computers, and I really really am curious why you're on a website called "Hacker News".
I did this and was happily Windows-less for quite a few years. I ended up building a PC with a big GPU and so I switched back to PC gaming with a Windows installation alongside Linux, but I still think the console route is a great option.
> which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
It's more that there's no sensible way they could do it even if they wanted to. Emulating the Windows kernel internals is well beyond the scope of what WINE is trying to do, and even if they did do it, there would be no way for the anticheat vendors to tell the difference between the AC module being sandboxed for compatibility versus sandboxed as a bypass technique. Trying to subvert the AC in any way is just begging to get banned, even if it's for beingn reasons.
As a competitive old school arena FPS guy, I have also had a very hard time getting the same smoothness and low latency (input, output, whatever it is) on Linux. The games I play are very fast and twitchy, and milliseconds matter.
There seems to be too many layers and variables to ever get to the bottom of it. Is it the distro itself? Is it a Wayland vs. X11 thing? Is it the driver? The Proton version? Some G-SYNC thing? Some specific tweak that games based on this game engine needs?
I've had better luck since the switch to Wayland. I don't play many FPS games but mouse input & overall smoothness for strategy games has been great. Check your mouse settings, you might need to set a higher USB sample rate. Piper is a frontend for adjusting them.
Yes, most likely. Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11, whereas KDE and GNOME's wayland sessions are both buttery smooth out of the box.
Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.
> Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11... Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.
Weird. I don't use KDE's compositor, and -AFAIK- WindowMaker doesn't have one. When in either KDE or in WindowMaker I don't have stuttering with either fullscreen, borderless "fullscreen", or windowed games... everything is as smooth as it is in Windows. Having said that, I do know that -when using KDE- some fullscreen games get jittery as all shit if a notification pops up and remain that way until the notification disappears. I expect that that performance problem would go away if I was using the compositor... but I don't want to spend the VRAM on it.
I use AMD graphics cards, so it might be an Nvidia thing that you're seeing. It also might be a "Your Linux distro simply stopped shipping good xorg installs" thing. I'm running Gentoo Linux which continues to ship updated versions of xorg and supporting software. [0]
[0] I've heard people running Debian and Debian-derived distros report X11 behavior that absolutely does not match what I've been seeing for years... so some percentage of the "X11 can't do $THING" when it really, really can must be coming from distros that ship either dramatically out-of-date or severely crippled xorg installs.
Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.
> That means regressions are entirely ignored.
Should I ever actually have a problem, and it's something that I can't (or CBA to) fix, and my distro's maintainers don't want to try to fix (and then tell me that upstream will never fix), then I'll look more closely at XLibre. XLibre may or may not be a dumpster fire at that point, who knows? If it is a dumpster fire, then I'll look around for other alternatives.
> It's shocking that people still install X11 as a default in [TYOOL]
Nah. It works fine for what I'm doing. I don't do anything that depends on Wayland. The shocking thing would be if I were to waste a ton of time chasing the new shiny... especially when those responsible for the new shiny have been lying for the past 10+ years about how it's ready for everyone's general use. [0]
[0] Perhaps it's ready now, after nearly eighteen years in development. I can't rely on the statements of those responsible for the project to tell me, and I CBA to go searching for (and evaluating the trustworthiness of) information on the topic.
> Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.
Yea these are security updates but the eco system requires a lot of desktop manager scaffolding in user space. That has basically stopped. It's baffling why you would run X11 today. The X11 emulation layer for Wayland works great too by the way.
Just as one example when you screen share from discord or zoom or Google meets there's now a pop-up that asks you to select the screen or window you wish to latch on to for streaming. This provides some security. With X11 anything can just take a screenshot at any time. Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore. As someone that made the switch three years ago I get how you might think the old system is better but in reality you haven't tried the new one so you don't really have a way to compare. I noticed so many quality of life fixes that I can't even imagine running X11 anymore.
It works fine for what I'm doing. I don't do anything that depends on Wayland.
> Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore.
Really? If true, I don't seem to run any of them. I've certainly not noticed anything I've been running over the past couple of decades suddenly stop working on X11. Given that QT, GTK, FTLK, and other cross-platform GUI toolkits support X11, these must be particularly special programs.
> Just as one example[, screensharing...]
Sure, it is a bit nicer to be able to control which windows which other programs can see. I've been watching the slow-moving, many-years-long shitstorm that has been "actually get screensharing that works the way ordinary people need it to". It's been quite a show.
Thing is, I do know that the X Access Control Extension was standardized in ~2006 and updated through 2009 with the aim to make additional fine-grained access control modules [0] easy. I don't know how long it would have taken to use what existed (or even write something new) and update the major Desktop Environments with tooling to manage it... but I suspect it would have taken far less than seventeen years.
> I noticed so many quality of life fixes...
I'm sure that were I 16, I'd believe that I cared very much about that. Now, -mumble decades later- the fanciest things I want are OpenGL and Vulkan support with performance at least on par with what you get from Windows, a window manager that lets me Alt+mouse-button to move or resize a window, functioning global hotkeys that I can command to run arbitrary programs (and that I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently), and functioning screen-sharing (that can I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently). And it's so, so silly for me to feel the need to mention anything other than Alt+mouse-button. You'd think that the rest would be "table stakes", but the Wayland development process has demonstrated that many folks disagree.
[0] Ones that could -for instance- prevent undesired keyloggers and screenshot tools
The problem is as soon as you run something new and it doesn't scale properly in X11 you're gonna be making a bug report instead of using what everyone else is using. Currently just with the screen sharing thing it's not even just graphical. There's also updates for Pipewire so you can select the audio output you wish to stream with your video feed. That dialog simply doesn't exist at all in X11. You probably don't even know it exists. It's been feature complete now for YEARS. There's a reason that Valve is using Wayland on SteamOS. It's cause it's feature complete now and they are working on stuff like HDR which won't work at all on X11. I'm guessing that X11 support will start to be dropped in the next few years by major code bases. It's hard for me to even explain some of the bugs I saw with X that disappeared overnight when I switched to Wayland. You talk about OpenGL and Vulkan support but hilariously that's what I'm trying to explain to you has *better* performance now than even Windows.
Just basic stuff wayland has that X11 will never have:
- No screen tearing by default
- Proper vsync
- Lower latency for input → display
- Per-monitor refresh rates (144Hz + 60Hz works correctly)
- Fractional scaling is actually correct (no blurry hacks)
> The problem is as soon as you run something new and it doesn't scale properly in X11...
QT, GTK, FLTK, and friends handle scaling correctly. Perhaps in the future there will be a Wayland-only GUI library, but I'm not sure why anyone would bother when there exist Wayland backends for the major existing ones.
> Pipewire
I don't use it. I use JACK2 with a PulseAudio fallback for Steam games and other programs that don't know how to hook into JACK.
> - No screen tearing by default
If you're using an AMD graphics card, the TearFree option gives you this. If your distro hasn't enabled it by default, then it's two minutes work, and work that I did years ago.
> - Per-monitor refresh rates
$ xrandr | grep -A2 DisplayPort
DisplayPort-0 connected primary 3840x2160+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 698mm x 393mm
3840x2160 60.00 + 60.00 50.00 59.94 30.00*
2560x1600 59.94
--
DisplayPort-1 connected 1200x1920+3840+0 left (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 546mm x 352mm
1920x1200 59.95*+
1920x1080 60.00 50.00 59.94 59.99
--
DisplayPort-2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
HDMI-A-0 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
The rest of your concluding list is just as poorly-informed.
I know what you mean, though I have a device running SteamOS though and it runs extremely smoothly, the latency is no different than my windows PC (on titles where it can achieve the same framerate).
I'm sure that it must be possible to replicate whatever optimisations SteamOS has on other distros, but unfortunately I am not sure what those are exactly.
Ah. Yeah, I play games very much like that (but not those specific ones). I also play rhythm games, which require precise timing.
Like this guy mentions [0], for all but one of the games I've tried, [1] I see comparable or superior performance to Windows.
I'm running AMD hardware, and I'm using KDE without a compositor on Xorg (that is, not on Wayland). I strongly expect that I've successfully disabled KDE's compositor because I seem to get the same performance when I use WindowMaker, which has never had a compositor.
> That's because almost all of the big players in that space
To the OP's point-- there are soooo many games nowadays, that if you and your friend group can skip some of those "big players," there are still hundreds of multiplayer games to play.
> ...which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
I mean, several of the major anticheats can be configured to work just fine on Linux. [0] It's up to the game dev whether or not it's permitted. So, yeah, unless the game is one where its dev makes huge blog posts about how "advanced" its anti-cheat is (like Valorant or the very latest CoD/Battlefield games) it's quite likely that multiplayer games will work just fine on Linux.
And if they don't, and the faulty game is a new purchase on Steam, then ask for a refund and tell them that the game doesn't work with your OS. Easy, peasy.
[0] I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux. On Linux, I play THE FINALS, Elden Ring, and a couple of other EAC-"protected" games without any troubles. I have perhaps-unreliable memories that at least one of the games I play uses Denuvo, which is only sometimes used as anti-cheat but does use many of the same techniques as kernel-mode anticheat.
> I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux.
That's no secret, but the catch is that the Linux version is much, much easier to bypass. That's why some developers choose not to enable it, or in the case of Apex Legends, enabled it but later backtracked and disabled it again.
> That's why some developers choose not to enable it
That's an excuse. It's mostly incompetence or more often than not the company doesn't think it's worth the effort. With more Linux users, the balance will eventually shift from "fuck them" to "we have to figure out a way".
Now if you do care about quality, having a committed, technical audience giving quality big reports is a godsend. But that's not where we are this decade rife with layoffs and rampant outsourcing in the industry.
You’re posting an argument from 6 years ago. Not including Steam OS, the Linux market share has almost quadrupled since then (to ~3.2%); including Steam OS, it’s up to ~24%. And continues to trend upwards.
You also don’t need to arbitrarily support Linux. It’s not difficult to say “this has only been tested on Fedora, Ubuntu, POP, and SteamOS; other distributions are unsupported officially”.
Most game studios pay someone else to make the anti-cheats and many already have Linux versions that the studios choose to not enable.
Besides, if your anti-cheat only ever looks at the system level, it'll easily be bypassed by hardware cheats. At some point I think anti-cheats will have to "know" the game to be able to detect anomalies. It's the only way to effectively stop many categories of cheats.
Oh, it absolutely is; if your product doesn't update its EAC bits regularly then it may as well not use EAC at all. Even still, there are known ways around it.
Even PVP is starting to “just work” via Proton. Arc Raiders runs just fine on Linux and is a strictly PvP game. Over time I think this will be less and less of a problem.
Still has an anti-cheat, they just bothered to allow Linux support.
Companies don't do this out of laziness/incompetence, but even some large anti-cheats work on Linux and some games simply choose to not enable it (cough, Tarkov, cough). Their problem, I'm no longer gonna play games that don't work on Linux.
Funnily enough the best FPS game ever (Counter-Strike) runs absolutely fine on Linux. Thanks Valve!
As far as I know, all the anti-cheat options for Linux are not kernel-level, which means that they are drastically less effective at their intended purpose. That's why so many competitive multiplayer games choose to not enable it.
Its not that they refuse to support the anti-cheat rootkits, its that its really difficult to emulate or abstract kernel level code. If you are using kernel level anti-cheat, you are just asking for trouble all-around.
> oh game XYZ doesn't run so it's not reasonable for gaming
People tend to generalize, but what they probably mean is "it's not reasonable for gaming for the games I play.
I haven't fully switched over yet because the games the combo of the hardware I have + the games I play regularly, still give me issues vs. Windows. Getting them to run isn't the problem, but I haven't been able to solve miscellaneous crashes, lag, lower frame rates, etc.
My next PC upgrade will probably be getting rid of my Nvidia 1660 super and getting something AMD for less headaches.
> People tend to generalize, but what they probably mean is "it's not reasonable for gaming for the games I play.
This. The corollary is also that people take the such quips way too literally.
I, personally, don't play that many games, and those that I do play tend to run faster on Linux (with an AMD GPU, which I bought specifically to avoid nvidia headaches).
But I still game on Windows. Why? Because I still have a Windows box, "because Linux is not reasonable for photo editing". I actually daily drive Linux, but I can't be assed to move from Lightroom and photoshop, so I still keep a windows pc under my desk. I just play games on it because it's much beefier than my 5 yo ryzen U laptop, and since I don't interact with that box all that much, I didn't feel like partitioning my smallish drive for no tangible benefit. My laptop is more than enough for all my other needs.
Ok, if you want to be stubborn about it then leave Windows on a partition and only start it when you want to play that one game. Problem solved.
In many ways, moving to Linux is like starting to live on your own. Your mommy might be a better cook than you, but is that a good enough reason to keep living in your parents' basement?
Win insists on bootlocker/secure boot, meanwhile most of the Linux doesn’t boot with it or you have to go though hell and back to install unsigned drivers (nvidia, gentle-yall).
I’d all say that Linux is like living in a car with 0 euros and saving up for a house. Simple user can scrape by, but mowing dev work life to Linux is much harder than to Mac. VPNs, inconsistent distro support for weird work stuff and such will make you spend days to weeks of unpaid overtime to get comfortable
Linux can handle BitLocker & Secure Boot just fine. The problem with dual booting in that configuration is rather that every time Linux updates the boot loader, Windows will freak out and stop booting until you enter the recovery key for BitLocker. This can be prevented by first booting into Windows to disable BitLocker until the next reboot and then installing the Linux updates, but in practice I find that I forget about it all the time with my dual-boot laptop (which spends most of its time booted into Linux).
This is a solvable problem and there's even pacman hooks around to do it for you
But also don't blame Linux. Even your comment says the problem is Microsoft. We need to be collectively mad at the right entity if we're going to get them to change. Otherwise they'll keep bullying people and they've found that they can bully people so much it gives them Stockholm Syndrome, where they feel they can't leave.
For quite a while I've found that the much easier answer is to have a physical drive per OS and make sure it's the only drive connected during install, or at least one for anything that doesn't play entirely nicely with multi-boot. Obviously there's downsides to that, buying another drive or you might be using something like a laptop which is less friendly to extra drives, dis/reconnecting M.2 drives isn't as trivial as SATA either.
Secure boot mainly gets annoying if you have an Nvidia card, since the akmod needs to be self-signed. It's not insurmountable but you have to load your keys into the UEFI before it'll work.
Bazzite builds the Nvidia driver into its kernel, so you don't need to do anything special. Post installation it prompts you to do key enrollment, so all the user needs to do is select "Enroll MOK" and type "universalblue".
I’m sorry but are you being intentionally obtuse? You can’t think of a single downside to running two systems on your machine instead of one? If you lack imagination to that level I can’t help you dude
Of course running one system is better. Use Linux and stop being miserable ;)
Still, you haven't said what are these extremely horrible cons that two systems have. For me they're so small it's not even comparable to having to submit yourself to a shit Windows system only to avoid the "hassle" of having two systems.
I used Windows only for gaming and Linux for everything else. Now I'm fed up with games that choose to block Linux out, so I no longer need the two systems and couldn't be happier.
I’m not miserable in the slightest, just endlessly bewildered that people in the Linux community continue to have attitudes like yours, despite that being literally the main reason people are put off of Linux. It’s self defeating.
Over the last year or so, nVidia support for the 3+ series of hardware has gotten pretty stable.
With that said, I'm probably going to grab and AMD or Intel card once my 3060 becomes too much of a pain to continue using. It's a little ridiculous that the 5060 gives very little reason for my to update my 5 year old video card.
I only update my rig ever 8-10 years. Saves money though I tend to then play the older games, which is OK for me. I've had a 3080 for 3 years and it still feels like a new card.
FWIW my 4070 Ti Super has had zero headaches in Linux. It’s only older Nvidia cards I’ve had issues with. Seems like there was a major driver change starting with the RTX 20xx series.
Up until last week I was running a 960 on mint and had absolutely no problems, nor did I even have to think about drivers. I also have a server running Tesla M10s and they're great too, little more fiddly getting the right driver, but that's moreso on the cards being weird.
Post last week I put in an Arc B580 and I had some issues at the start, but that's more to do with the fact that my workstation has a Haswell Xeon v3... Otherwise it was just turning CSM off.
Linux probably became first-class for them because a lot of ML workflows rely on NVidia in the cloud, and I don't think anyone really uses Windows for that.
Again, all these games are available on console (mostly) so the excuse to not support Linux is conscious. Those ARE Linux machines. Essentially. (Yeah yeah, they have their own tool chain and rendering) but if they are using Vulkan, DX12, DX11, and a window - it can run on Linux.
Of course, and it's mostly DRM and/or anti-cheat. The studios want full control over the device running their IP, and they can't achieve that with desktop Linux, but they also don't want to leave the PC gaming market behind entirely to launch exclusively on consoles. Hence why the Windows versions of these games install rootkits on your PC, they aren't cooperating with the PC ecosystem, they are forcibly turning your computer into a locked-down console.
and for a good reason, you want an infested cheater to be more a problem than currently bad problem that is happening????
giving a user freedom cause it to make multiplayer game to be more unbearable since its human nature to compete and come out of others ???? who would guess
Technically PS5 and I think Switch 2 is based on the BSD kernel probably because of the license. Xbox is not exactly Windows but it's using an NT kernel.
Playstation is FreeBSD, yeah, but the Switch runs a completely bespoke microkernel. Nintendo did borrow the BSD networking stack, which led some to infer from the license disclosure that it runs a BSD, but it's been extensively reverse engineered now and it doesn't even vaguely resemble Unix.
The fun thing about it being a true microkernel is that although there's zero official public information about it, it was small enough to fully reverse engineer and more or less reconstitute the original source code. You can see it here, it's tiny:https://github.com/Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere/tree/master/meso...
I’ve been trying to train a model to do this kind of work. Take a black box and try to reverse engineer its functions back into something usable (not necessarily identical). Obviously on things that are out of copyright or copyleft.
There have certainly been issues (I've been on Linux with mostly nvidia GPUs since 2004) but it's
almost always been caused by the module being outside the kernel, and a kernel update breaking compatibility sometimes, understandably. This has always been fixed quickly on nvidias end though. And early Wayland issues and the current DX12 -> Vulkan translation performance issues in more recent times.
But overall I've also had a mostly stable experience during that time. New hardware is supported mostly at release. Not always supporting all the latest features straight away mind you, but still. Meanwhile I seem to hear about issues with support for Intel and AMD cards at release frequently in comparison.
AMD drivers are now open and in the mainline kernel. They dropped their proprietary driver and now use the upstream MESA stack. Nvidia also still suffers from a 20-30% performance drop on DX12 games on Linux, while AMD does not.
It used to be the reverse as you stated, but that hasn't been true since about 2015.
Okay, but AMD isn't accelerated. It's godawful slow for anything to do with video, and really you just need an NVidia card if you're doing anything to do with video editing or motion graphics.
The built-in amdgpu drivers are awful, constantly crashy and with very poor hardware support of anything more than a couple of years old.
It doesn't have CUDA beacuse that's NVidia-only and it doesn't have OpenCL unless you use the binary-only drivers, which only work on a handful of very new cards.
I actually switched from a 7900 XTX to a 4090 BITD because I wanted CUDA, so I get that angle, but that doesn't mean I go around telling people "AMD isn't accelerated," because it's not true and it's a silly thing to try to claim.
NVIDIA is currently improving as well! Of course AMD is still the safer bet, but I think things look bright for NVIDIA in the future. The kernel driver was open sourced, and they are currently working on the DX12 performance issues.
I run both operating systems. But I have to say it either runs the game you want to play or it doesn't. This is especially true if you play games with friends.
That's not what I am saying, sorry if it was confusing. The parent was implying that if it doesn't run a game just pick a different game. But I was pointing out that isn't always an option, and some times you just want to play a specific game.
I used Linux Mint for 2 full months, 99% of my personal computing. Really like it. BUT... not all games my gaming group plays work on it, and social gaming is very important to me.
That doesn't mean I'm sour on Linux PC gaming. I think it's great, and will work for a lot of people, and it's so close for me. And I might switch, since my gaming tastes are shifting.
I do understand the premise but … people want to play the games they want to play.
For example I am a good customer for streaming services because I don’t care about specific titles - I will watch a series or a movie because it is available. I will most likely not go through a hassle to watch some specific show if it is not on streaming I already have.
Gaming doesn’t really work like that for me. I usually want to play specific titles - not just some game.
But I fully understand someone has the same approach to games as I have for movies/series.
I'd quote your own example from Anno -> "multiplayer never worked". Thats the "doesn't run" part. I always play Anno 1800 with friends. It has been my experience with linux gaming for a while - anything that involves multiplayer usually doesn't work, either because its just broken (less likely) or because its specifically stopped by the developer (anticheat, etc..). Reality is though, that most mainstream games (as in, biggest player counts and as such, the games most people are playing) do not support linux. If my Valorant or League of Legends or Counter Strike or Rust or ARC Raiders or Marvel Rivals don't allow me to play on linux then the state still is "linux can't really run games yet".
How do you fix this? I dont know - most of these are the developers refusing support because of anticheat or just support overload, but it's insane to suggest that linux works for gaming when the most played games in the world straight up do not work. I'd love if linux was more viable though, can't wait to ditch the slowness from windows.
It's like this. You eventually got Starcraft2 to work. That means Linux can run Starcraft2, it's in the "Runs" category. Games like League of Legends, which have kernel level anti cheat, are in the "Won't Run" category.
But you don't want to sacrifice comfort or other things. The game should work just right on Linux.
I have an Nvidia card and use mostly Ubuntu (mate), also for gaming. It's even a problem now, because I would benefit from a hard divide between the gaming and working\studying system (I have a gaming user in backlog).
On Linux it's mostly KSP, Factorio, but sometimes DeepRockGalactic, Valheim, Euro Truck Sim or Warhammer: Total War1\2\3. These games work flawlessly or with <10%fps hit.
There are games that kind of work - Ancestors: Humankind Odyssey, Cyberpunk, Hunt: Showdown. But you lose comfort and I'd rather just play them on Windows, than suffer decreased functionality on Linux. I know that some of it (definitely Cyberpunk) is only because of NVIDIA.
When buying games I usually don't buy Windows only games unless there is a very good reason. And I quit League of Legends and WRC rally because of anti cheat scam. I feel scammed after putting lot of money in a game and suddenly losing the ability to play it.
This shifting of goalposts just to cater to linux just explains it all.
Comeon. If a customer bought a game that says it runs on linux, they should be able to play it on linux well, not just launch it and quit within 5 mins.
I get you have the ideology up in your head, but don't lie and embellish linux to this degree. The attitude just turns people off.
> If a customer bought a game that says it runs on linux, they should be able to play it on linux well
None of those games say they run on Linux.
- Starcraft 2 is available for windows/mac: https://starcraft2.blizzard.com/en-us/
- Anno 1800 is available for windows: https://store.steampowered.com/app/916440/Anno_1800/
- Hogwarts Legacy is available for windows: https://www.hogwartslegacy.com/en-us/pc-specs
The fact that you can play most games on Linux these days is due to the Wine developers, Valve, and CodeWeavers. But those efforts are completely unrelated to the developers of those three games. Buying Starcraft 2 is not, in any way, purchasing a Linux game or transferring money to anyone working on Linux support.
Every game I've purchased that actually says it runs on Linux, has worked beautifully on Linux (stellaris and factorio come to mind). Most windows games work beautifully on Linux too, but Blizzard isn't lifting any fingers to make it that way.
Yeah I hope I'm clear in that I'm not "against Linux" or "against people choosing to use Linux." I think Linux is awesome.
And I choose to use Windows for most of my personal computing, due to my gaming preferences, some needs (concussions + poor eyesight means things like scaling and brightness controls and refresh rate matter a lot to me), and my preference for DxO PhotoLab (which isn't Linux compatible.)
"Linux" is really a family of operating systems, so people need to be more specific. It might run perfectly out of the box on consumer/gamer focused operating systems like Bazzite or SteamOS while perhaps requiring more work on something like Red Hat or NixOS. Those different operating systems all have wildly different approaches to how the OS actually works despite generally being able to run a largely overlapping set of programs.
It's like saying something works on "laptop" without specifying whether it's a Thinkpad or a Chromebook or a Macbook.
I can't comment generally but I use NixOS and have had no issues playing games on Steam. The setup was laughably simple, just `programs.steam.enable = true;` and Steam handles compatibility so well that I buy games without thinking "will this run".
Actually there was one thing I couldn't do but this isn't unique to NixOS. I tried to install a GTAV mod that allows you to ride your smart bike trainer in game: GTBikeV. The mod can be installed, but the Bluetooth doesn't work. This is a WINE limitation.
Fwiw I've been playing Hogwarts Legacy lately, though single player. Only problem I ever face is sometimes in a cave if I'm facing a certain direction I'll get blinding light as if I have ray tracing enabled and it's badly implemented. Though considering it's a AAA game and other things I've seen, I don't think that's exactly a Linux problem. Much like Starfield...
I ran Starcraft 2 through Lutrus and it was a piece of cake. No lag that I could discern. There was a little mini launcher and everything. The multiplayer also worked just fine, although the matchmaking system seemed to think I was an expert level player for some reason and kept matching me with dudes who were way better at the game than I was.
To me, this is the one thorn in Linux (and the Linux online community) that gives me pause.
For the people that it just works for, well it just works for.
For anyone else, apparently they are the problem? Not Linux?
Well sorry no. I did get StarCraft 2 working with Lutris... once. Then I couldn't get it to start again. Eventually I switched to running Battle.Net from Steam and for some reason that did work. But it wasn't a "just works" or "piece of cake." It was a puzzle.
Maybe the difference is that I am running Ubuntu? Personally I think it's a common mistake for new users to jump on some obscure distro because they read something online where someone says it's the best. Even if that's true there is value in being on a popular distro in that bugs tend to be discovered and fixed quicker and there's almost always someone who has had the same problem you did and often figured out the solution just a web search away.
I think Canonical and the Gnome foundation have made some really bone headed decisions over the years, but I stick with Ubuntu because the mass of users on it means I never get left high and dry. Or at least I'm not alone when I run into a problem.
Yeah, I was using Linux Mint at the time. Which is based on Ubuntu... So that's often where I'd look for help.
Though any kind of documentation is like Linux, scattered and inconsistent. And I'm "OK" with that, as in I think the way that Linux came to be and is maintained, and provides user choice is also the reason why it's not "user-friendly" in every scenario. You can choose your distribution, and a lot of other things. And then look in a wide variety of places for bug reports, user questions, etc. You'll get a variety of answers from "it just works for me" to "change your distribution that you chose" to "even though some guides say to use Lutris, it's easier to just put it in Steam's external program launcher and choose Proton version x.yz."
Even then, not everything will work because it wasn't written to work (for Linux). It was written to work for Windows, and then some smart people rolled up their sleeves and found ways to make a great many things work for Linux, and it's all amazing. And I find using Linux (mostly) quite pleasant. But when things don't work... there's going to be friction. It will take user effort to find a solution, or a solution might not be found.
And for me personally, being someone who really likes to poke and customize and do things my way, Linux is a blessing and a curse, because I can guarantee I'll hit "weird edge cases" like trying to use the online multiplayer part of a game instead of just single player, or try to use my laptop's brightness controls, but they don't work, or I'll want fractional scaling to work, but it won't. And maybe there's a fix out there, or maybe not. Fixes like "it works for me" or "change your distribution", though, are non-fixes. They just frustrate people. If changing my distribution fixes an issue, how many new issues does it create for me?
Not saying you didn’t experience this, but I’ve definitely run StarCraft 2 in the past, and I play Anno 1800 regularly fine (thanks to the mods I’ve been playing it’s even got 50% more sessions than the base game)
Did multiplayer LAN work in Anno 1800 for you out of the box, or did you make adjustments? I couldn't figure out how to get it to work.
StarCraft 2 worked, oddly enough, run from Steam as an external program. (Lots of search results tried to get me to use Lutris/bottles, but I couldn't get it to work consistently under Lutris.)
Ah yes that's what I meant. But yes unfortunately I could not figure out how to get multiplayer to connect. No idea why or how to troubleshoot and fix.
They don't mean all games thru all times, they mean "the latest $70 release" that still can have problem if it is multiplayer DRM/anticheat ridden one.
I haven't booted windows in months but there is definitely some caveats for gamers
On the other hand, those who find contemporary game development trends distasteful might find much to like about the fruits of the Debian Games Team's work on game-data-packager.
The games on that list have native ports that can be integrated into the Debian environment just by installing packages, and the game data packages can be automatically generated from each game's official install media.
I just dont understand how anyone can go "yeah okay lets install these guys rootkit complete with keylogger and who knows what, totally legit!", and for what? to play a game
I personally wouldn't install any kernel anticheat on a computer that I intend to use for anything important, so I would personally refuse to install the incompatible games even if I was using windows.
Take ProtonDB with a grain of salt, Apex Legends still has a Silver rating ("Runs with minor issues") despite being 100% unplayable on Linux for over a year now.
"Just trust us, bro! Our security is better than the banks, governments, and major services and we would never let anyone exploit or abuse the gaping hole we're deliberately installing in your security profile! It's just our perfectly secure rootkit that won't ever be used for anything bad!"
It's so weird to me that people just allow this, or even defend it. Game companies should be legally obligated to scale human moderation and curation of multiplayer games, and if you're paying for service that gets moderated and curated, there should be some legal expectation of process - a requirement that the service provider lay out a specific "due process" framework, even if it ends up mediated, that gives a customer legal recourse. Instead, they try to automate everything, which has notoriously indiscriminate collateral damage with no recourse.
If you pour significant chunk of your private time and money into a game, you should be entitled to not arbitrarily lose an account or gameplay progress because some poorly configured naive Bayes classifier decided you did something wrong, without corresponding evidence or recourse to undo bad bans.
For some reason companies are entitled to infinitely expand their reach without concurrently expanding their responsibilities in providing service to individuals. Must be nice.
Most of the games I play would work fine, but it’s the damn anti cheat and multiplayer games that forces Windows down my throat, and I’m not happy about it.
I only use my gaming rig for gaming so I have no other requirements, which kind of makes it even worse.
Initially I hated that Linux was so niche in 2005 or so.
Meanwhile now, I don't have time for games anyway. I still think gaming should be better on Linux, but I don't miss Windows anymore either (though I have it as secondary operating system on another computer; I just don't really care about it, it could die tomorrow and I would not miss it one iota).
Games are more and more consolidating towards services, so it really only takes one game for the lions share of gamers. You can bet GTA V is a big draw away from Linux and that GTA VI will eventually be the same when it hits PC.
As for me, I'm still stuck for professional reasons. I do intend to develop natively on Linux when time comes to make my own game.
The only pain point I've found is VR. I've bounced off trying to get it working multiple times with the best results getting about 10% functional (video working on one or two games, input broken on all).
That said, I haven't tried getting the same kit working on windows so I can't say if it's any better.
VR is rough at the moment, but one would hope that Valve is prepping an overhaul for SteamVR on Linux since they're launching a standalone VR headset which runs Linux soon.
I ran into the issue where I didn't know that you can tell Steam to always prefer NATIVE LINUX programs over everything over Proton. This was causing a ton of issues with VR, I havent gone back to try it yet though, havent found the time.
It was very broken for a long time. Since fairly recently you have WiVRn (specifically wivrn-dashboard on Arch) for Oculus (more supported though) and I would daresay it works better then SteamVR used to do for me on Windows
Hardware for flight sim games is also in a similar boat. It's hard to configure most of the newer hardware, but a lot of the old low quality joysticks work alright out of the box.
That's great to hear as a fellow Reverb G2 user. Starting with Windows 11 24h2 they dropped all Windows MR support. It looks like there's also a driver called "Oasis" now which restores functionality on Windows.
I have owned the index for a few years, running it on ubuntu/mint. It is a pain. But VR is a pain generally. I go months without using the thing. Then when i do use it some bit of software has been updated and i inevitably have to spend an hour getting it to work correctly again. Honestly, VR on linux feels like using windows again.
VR is bad because nobody cares much about it. The hardware is clunky, the market tiny, and costs great. As the hardware improves it will get more attention from the FOSS community and so too will the overall experiance.
Does a game "run on Linux" when it has 100% feature parity? 90%? 80%? What are you willing to cut? Some performance? A few graphical effects? Multiplayer?
When you look at the details, Linux gaming is not as good as it might seem.
What you sacrifice in feature parity, you gain in user freedom and principle. To me, that is a worthwhile tradeoff. Especially since it's really not that much different at this point. You're not sacrificing much in most cases now. It's really quite remarkable.
I can't remember the last time a game did anything other than run (this is with only trying games that have been documented to work). I think the worst I've had is audio not working in cut scenes in some game, but I don't remember what game it was.
You and most of the other people in this thread clearly do not understand what's going on here. I and everyone else you're griping about do not give a shit about Slop Spoogers 7 from 1998 running great on Linux, we care about the games that we play with our friends being playable.
This is what matters, on Windows every single one of these is Native. Switching to Linux will be painful at best until every single one is at least Gold if not Platinum or Native.
There it is, the classic “just change what you enjoy then!!”. Linux will take off when the community stops trying to force new users to conform to the Linux way of life and instead respect that other people have other needs and wants that are valid, and not a moment before.
While I agree it's unreasonable, it's also kind of a chicken and an egg thing. These things won't change until Linux becomes big enough to ignore. I'm not sure what the solution is though, as I don't think it's realistic to make people give up what they enjoy to get there. That's not gonna happen. But Valve has at least made a dent with the Steamdeck and Proton in general, and maybe more with the upcoming Steam Machine. Devs actively target the Steamdeck nowadays for games where it makes sense, so it is taken into consideration at a whole new level compared to years past.
Getting the community to respect that people have those needs would go a long way to stopping people from feeling alienated, even if the solutions aren’t there yet.
Not much else to do. You either convert people, convert the companies to support Linux, or convert the government into cracking down on whatever makes it difficult for Linux to be supported. The latter is highly unlikely, and the 2nd only cares if people shift their habits.
I mean, the community could be less hostile to newcomers, and some of the bigger distorts could focus more on the user experience of inexperienced users. Those things can be done without any of those.
How so? My impression is that Ubuntu is the biggest distro and it's philosophy is pretty much trying to replicate the Mac experience. I don't think the base UX can get easier to use at that rate.
Things that don't work out of the box tend to be proprietary stuff, like GPU drivers. That falls back to converting companies.
Ubuntu has done a decent job for normal installs but take it from me, if you want to dual boot it, it still doesn’t make it easy. It’s too easy to mess up your whole system if you don’t know what you’re doing, not to mention bootloaders are all still stuck in the 90’s, and are even worse to configure nicely than they are to use.
Dual booting is one of the best ways to introduce someone to Linux in theory as they’ll feel safe trying that without having to delete their whole old system… except it’s also the scariest and most difficult way to install it and no installer makes it easy. It’s a real foot gun.
Many of us play with friends and don't dictate every game in the rotation. My time with my friends is more important to me than operating system purity.
I've been using Fedora+KDE for over a decade, Windows 8 was last version of Windows I had installed at home, and we all know what a squarified mess that was.
Gnome is fine, but it's just not for me.
For everyone on here that complains about Windows requiring an 'online' account, MacOS does as well, but the perception is different. MacOS, just kind of quietly does it, with no ceremony, but Windows does a Ballmer-esque right-in-your-face demand. I couldn't possibly comment on Windows 11 as I've yet to use it, but Win10 felt a lot worse than Windows 7 which was probably the last high water mark for Windows after Windows 2000.
The familiarity is great but the thing that really draws me to Plasma over Gnome is that the KDE developers seem to have an attitude of just implementing the features people want even if it's not perfect yet. Gnome is polished, but it's missing so many basic configuration options out of the box.
It's kind of funny because when I first got into linux it was practically the opposite story. Back in the day of KDE 2 or 3 and Gnome 2, KDE was the slow one to bring in features while Gnome felt like the wild wild west.
Now it seems like Gnome has gone down a practically walled garden path which I don't love. Last I tried it, I wanted to launch an app focused and in full screen on startup. The gnome response for that was basically "You're not allowed to do that".
Afaik, you can choose to not sign into icloud when creating an account on your mac. It's not a hard requirement like it is on Windows, though they do obviously strongly nudge you to login to icloud.
At least on the latest Sequoia, there has been no hard requirement for an online account. They nudge you towards it, but you can decline and continue. As far as I can remember, macOS has never required an online account to set up a Mac.
You might need it for the App Store if anything, but even then... You don't need the app store for installing software. Mac is at its peak currently, though the new glass UI stuff is a little over the top for me. I miss the old simpler UI. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually.
The Mac 100% does not require you to sign in to an Apple Account to use it. You can go about with a local account only just fine and you can easily do it right from the OOBE setup UI — no tricks involved whatsoever.
I only use KDE, though it has weird instability from time to time. They just changed which gcc version I'm on so I am not sure if I've noticed the same instability or not. Overall though KDE is the perfect DE for me.
> if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
Agree 1000% and recently Steam Community Support pissed me off so I am now looking into GOG (I have my first GOG game now and playing it), Epic and Luna. In fact, the GOG game I got was free through Luna ironically. Even more ironic, the excellent Heroic game launcher lets you mark the game to show up in Steam, then when you start steam run it from there and it uses the config settings from Heroic but you can use screenshots, etc. in Steam.
The gaming landscape on Linux is great, except for those companies that refuse to support anti-cheat.
While you _can_ use their launcher, you don't _have_ to. Once you buy the game, you can just download the installer and run it to install on your box. If you want you can save the install package somewhere if you think you'll enjoy the game for years to come and don't want to be dependent on GOG.
I also found out that they have quite a few fairly recent games. Maybe not the top-10 big budget (however they partner with RedProject so they do have Cyberpunk) but they have plenty of solid indy games from 2015 - 2020, and some more recent.
That's a good point about downloading it. The game I got was Fallout 3. I'd played Fallout 4, 76 and New Vegas and am finding 3 to be fun too. Probably won't get the older isometric (?) Fallout games, I prefer first person.
I suspect this is less about when Windows declined and more about individual computing journeys. Early exposure (home, school, work) tends to set a baseline that’s hard to shake.
Microsoft had realyl good engineers and talent. Microsoft internally has gone to shit. They hire an army of H1B's and all the talent has left. Shell of a company on the Windows side that anyone working with them can see. It started a couple years ago, but it's really gone off the deepend and will just get worse. I say this as a windows expert and someone who thinks linux is crap.
Ha, same. Windows XP for me had a horrible habit of booting into a blue screen randomly after updating video card drivers (happened with both ATI and Nvidia). Trying to do a repair install wouldn't work. The only option was a full reinstall.
Installation from the disk took an hour. Then (if you were going about this the legal way) you'd have to call the microsoft number to register your install, but be on hold for another 30 minutes. Then it was multiple hours of install your favorite video player, reboot. Install video codecs, reboot. Install firefox, reboot. Apply all of your registry tweaks, reboot. Install all your games from CD-ROM, more rebooting. And multiple hours of that.
I started using Linux in like 2007 but the GPU was always an issue. Then it was running games. Linux changed for me around 2013+ when I would install it on my laptops and get a heck of a performance boost. Heck those laptops still turn on to this day. Windows just bloats all hardware.
Been on / off Linux for the desktop since about the same time. Recurring theme across my AMD and NVIDIA gpus. Support has always sucked!
Over the years it felt like a game of whack a mole finding the right combination of driver versions, open or closed source. R9 390 owners back in the day will understand... Fast forward to now, the same problems keep occurring albeit better off then they were.
> I started using Linux in like 2007 but the GPU was always an issue.
Were you running Nvidia hardware? I've been running Linux since like 2000-ish, have always run ATi/AMD hardware on my desktop machines, and (aside from overheat issues brought on by the undersized replacement fan attached with bread ties to that one board) haven't had troubles. On the other hand, I don't suspend my desktop or servers to RAM or disk, so maybe that has intermittently or always been broken... I'd never know.
I've only had Intel hardware in my laptops, and I can't remember ever having trouble suspending those to RAM or disk.
It's been an unfortunate re-occurring issue for me as well. Recent hardware is much better about this, and I too have seen the performance bumps at the cost of software compatibility. I feel like if Adobe brought their CC suite to Linux I'd have no reason to ever use Windows outside the random game that _needs_ it.
Yes, but it took some time before the suck became so bad too many people started to notice, and those people weren’t tech people.
Most people had never even heard of Linux. It has taken a lot of very bad things on Windows for it to get to this point. It’s classic frog in a slowly heating up pot territory.
My experience is that people fear linux, rather than not knowing. I am the lonely Linux user since c. 2005, and people see half my screen is always a console, the other half a browser. So they fear linux is for console wizards, not for regular users. Nothing will convince them otherwise, even when they are 100% of the time using online webapps. I have some coworkers using browser + VS code + WSL2 all the time, but they don't switch because they fear the console-to-config-everything instead of Control Panel.
I don't know, man. In my experience, people make no difference between "windows" and "the pc". I think the vast majority of "regular people" have no idea there are alternatives to "windows", other than "macs".
So much of it is a problem of execution. If people could use Linux without ever having to know what a terminal is (much like the average Windows user doesn't know what PowerShell is), then it would actually be quite successful. It has gotten better over the past decade, but it still suffers from endless paper cuts and the odd issue that requires a shell session to fix. I will say that Valve's SteamOS has come the closest to avoiding this trap. You can use a deck without ever having to touch a CLI.
I am a hardcore DayZ player. DayZ does not work on Proton[0]. I cannot use Linux as my main gaming platform. Battlefield 6 does not work. Latest Call of Duty does not work. You can talk about voting with your wallet, but when millions of people are buying the game, your one non-vote means nothing.
So either you punish yourself and refuse to play with friends, or you punish yourself and install windows. It’s a damned situation regardless of your choice
[0] point me to as many compatibility databases as you want, the game will not start on my vanilla Ubuntu build
This is really just a subset of competitive shooters. Arc Raiders, The Finals, Hunt Showdown, Halo Infinite all play fine.
I have a Windows drive for Battlefield but I stopped booting into it after interest in the game waned.
Playing on console is also an option. Most games allow you to alternate between keyboard/mouse and controller. Discord works fine, and every game is cross-play.
Sounds like it might be an issue with your setup, considering that other people have no problems running it. Hard to tell what the problem is, but definitely a frustrating situation.
this is why a lot of people run arch and why valve based steamOS on arch instead of debian as the previous version was, you need a newer kernel and other packages to really play games on linux with the least friction possible
I switched my gaming laptop over to CachyOS (which is more or less "Arch with some good defaults for gaming and a curated runtime environment") because I literally couldn't play Stellaris on my $1800, year-old gaming laptop without regular hard crashes that locked up the entire system and required a hold-the-power-button-down hard reboot. This is apparently a rare but known issue on the Paradox forums, affecting many of their games, and it seems to be due to some problem with the 24h2 windows update on some machines, but there's no clear resolution. Eventually I got mad enough to just pave my entire gaming laptop and switch wholly over to Cachyos.
Since switching, I have not experienced a single problem with Stellaris, even running larger galaxies in longer games with more mods. I haven't had any compatibility issues or bugs or anything with my other games either. It was so painless that I switched my desktop over as well, and I no longer have a windows device. I've been really pleasantly surprised by how many games support Linux now.
Yeah, yay works until it doesn't anymore, because the pacman library dependency it uses was updated but yay was not... and then you need to recompile yay manually. I mean, I'll still use it (or rather paru, which works basically the same way), but it's very annoying, when it happens every few months.
That's assuming you do system upgrades through paru/yay. However, you may not want to upgrade the packages you've obtained from the AUR and so you upgrade using pacman. That may cause the updated libalpm to become incompatible with the installed yay/paru.
Iirc it was to force the extra step necessary for the user to acknowledge that the AUR can bootstrap malware if used blindly.
This seems to be a relatively consistent discussion surrounding AUR helper development; for example, adding UX to incentivise users to read PKGBUILDs, lest the AUR becomes an attractive vector for skids.
No one wants the AUR to become NPM, and the thing that will incentivise that is uneducated users. Having the small barrier of not having helpers in the main repos is an effective way of accomplishing that.
Assume they mean having to recompile the AUR package they were trying to install using yay.
If users mental model is mostly "yay is like pacman but can also install packages from AUR the same way" wihout thinking deeper about the difference then I think it using it is very risky and that you should just stick to pacman + git/makepkg. Only consider helpers once that's become second nature and routine. Telling people to "just yay install" is doing them a disservice. An upgrade breaking the system isn't even that bad compared to getting infected with malware due to an old package you were using being orphaned and hijacked to spread malware or getting a bad copycat version due to a typo.
I think EndeavourOS is doing users a disservice if they provide sth like yay preinstalled and ready to use out of the box. It isn't installing packages from a shared repo: It's downloading code from arbitrary locations and running it on your machine in order to produce a package. Being able to read and understand shell script (PKGBUILD) is kind of a prerequisite to using it safely.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
They largely have now, archinstall.
It's still text based/TUI but it's pretty simple and intuitive, anyone already familiar with installing a Linux distro (especially any sort of -server variant) will be comfortable with the archinstall script.
Regarding why Arch doesn't "invest" in a graphical installer, it's worth mentioning that Arch's installation image has a different design philosophy than most installation media.
The image is a fully functional arch environment that copies the entirety of its contents to RAM on boot, giving you special installation opportunities such as the ability to install Arch to the same flash drive that booted the installer. Having no graphical dependencies lets this image remain small enough to pull this off, as well as allowing for fully remote installations over SSH out of the box, since archinstall is a TUI.
I don't believe there are any serious technical obstacles to providing a graphical installer in something like an initramfs environment. Many distros do provide graphical installation mechanisms using PXE, which loads the kernel and installer-initramfs over the network (and is similar in the sense that it won't touch local storage unless you tell it to)
I don't have a way to quickly around to check, but I thought the arch install media used squashfs? In which case I wouldn't have thought it was safe to blow away the backing store.
> anyone already familiar with installing a Linux distro (especially any sort of -server variant) will be comfortable with the archinstall script.
To be fair, thats not _generally_ the audience we tend to think about when we talk about the enshittification of Windows. We're usually talking regular consumers / computer users and "gamers" the latter of which is a wide range of people that can fend for themselves with instructions to people that cannot.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't generally direct that audience to vanilla arch linux as "gamers first distro" anyway.
I'd direct them to something like Bazzite (Immutable), or CachyOS for staying arch-based but providing a GUI installer and tools, Endeavor OS, even Fedora, etc.
Agreed. I know in some circles it's a meme, but if the Steam Gaming Console actually makes a debut any time soon, I think we'll see more of a jump from the "Gamer" crowd away from Windows. My (some say naive) hope is that it will make game devs try to design games that aren't only locked in on Windows and have more Proton support.
It's really a (good IMHO) sign of the times that us old hats have to remind ourselves that most new comers to Linux today aren't necessarily adept at installing another OS, let alone using the command line. The first time I installed Arch was maybe four years ago, but the very first dual boot setup I made was between Win 3.1 and OS/2 2.1 in 1993 when I was 10, and I've been playing with Linux since the mid-late 90s. When I first installed Arch the "hard way" I said to myself--"I don't understand why it has this reputation... this is all stuff I've done before countless times." Frankly, I'm still trying to figure out the distribution graph of Linux knowledge and how to engage with different skill levels.
I agree. I also think that not everyone (I couldn't say if this is generational, I see this among peers sometimes too) has the same appetite for problem solving. People hit a problem or a wall and say "So I tried X and now I see Y. I dont know what to do" and then they just sit there. The reason that LMGTFY and RTFM come off as "elitist" is because people are frustrated by others' willingness to just "stop trying" whenever they hit a road block.
>idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Because in reality, you should be able to use the wiki for installing. Because if you can't, you might not be able to use the wiki to support yourself in the future.
The issue most people have with slapping some paint on arch then riding the coat tails is the eternal September effect. Arch community prefers folks who try to help themselves _first_ and reading an install wiki is a good indicator you're going to do that.
Not that this is going to matter to you because you've left Windows behind, but I refuse to buy License Keys any more and I try to steer people away from buying "Gray Keys" to avoid the ridiculous costs. Using the MS Activation Scripts[0] is the much better go-to.
Given the push to monetize user data it seems Microsoft is demphasizing their focus on key piracy. I bought a computer with a 55" touch screen. The company selling it said it was a Windows 11 computer. The computer was a 14 year old Intel CPU/Mobo that was never designed to run Windows 11. The company selling it had hacked Windows to run on this old computer. They didn't have a license key. I report it to Microsoft and crickets. The company ghosted me on the issue. In 2003, with XP in it's prime, they were cracking down hard on piracy... now it's part of the business model...
Absolutely. I would also think that the amount of money "lost" on license keys specifically on the "regular consumer" side pales in comparison to the data that they get once you're on their operating system. How many non-power users bother with disabling telemetry and other data that MS collects through their operating system? How many people bother configuring a Local Account? All of that is probably worth way more than a ~$200 license key.
On the business side, businesses make it a focus to be in compliance with licensing agreements so they still see whatever oodles of money from companies that have fleets of computers that run Windows.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Because its supposed to be stripped down. To serve as a base to create things like Endeavour, Manjaro, or Cachy.
There's still a lot of utility to doing things the hard way. I do suggest people that want to actually learn Linux install Arch and live in the terminal. You learn a lot very fast because you're forced to. But it's not for everyone and that's totally okay too. That's the beauty of Linux after all. That's the beauty of computing. You can't build a product for everyone but you can build an environment that can become what anyone needs.
But I'll second your point. I've been on Endeavour on my main machine for about 3-4 years now and only had one problem where I just got a mismatch in a new kernel and new Nvidia driver so I couldn't load the desktop. Easy rollback (from the cache) and a day or two later the issue was solved so I could upgrade without a problem. Took no more than 10 minutes to solve and that's the worst problem I've had the entire time. I will also give the advice that if you have an Nvidia card give your boot partition like 5GB instead of 1GB
I don't think it is because they can't do it or that they want to be a base for other distros. They simply let the user choose what the user wants. And if you don't know what you want then you learn it.
I switched to arch 15 years ago to learn Linux. And it is by far the best way to understand it.
Having used Arch I can easily maintain almost any distro out there, but it doesn't work the other way around.
> Having used Arch I can easily maintain almost any distro out there, but it doesn't work the other way around.
I think this is an important thing to recognize. It's exactly why I tell people that want to learn Linux to do it (but not people who want to use Linux). The struggle is real, but the struggle is part of the learning process. The truth is that distros are not that different from one another. The main difference is in the package manager and the release schedule of their package databases.
I'd also like to tell any Linux newbies, the Arch Wiki is your best friend. It doesn't matter if you're using Ubuntu, Mint, or whatever. The Arch Wiki is still usually the second place I go to for when I need help. The first is the man pages (while there's some bad documentation out there it is quite surprising how well most man pages are written. Linux really has shown me the power and importance of writing good documentation)
I installed fedora yesterday. Instead of steam i am hoping that GOG with heroic games launcher will work nicely. Idk, I want to support drm free software so if it's on gog, I buy it there.
[obviously YMMV, take me with a grain of salt etc]
I actually tried Fedora first (thinking dev-first workflows) but ended up switching to Ubuntu w/x11 for gaming. A lot of that had to do with Fedora's release schedule (rather than Ubuntu's 2-year LTS) breaking working GOG/steam/wine-based apps on a rotating basis. Since switching to a defaults lifestyle / Ubuntu with x11 I deal with NVIDIA driver compatibility issues every 6 months or so instead of once/month. The 22 -> 24 upgrade was better than I expected and I didn't lose more than a couple of hours of life to appease the shell gods.
In any case Fedora and a once/month problem would still beat the Windows update nonsense, which I am still supporting since my spouse hasn't switched yet :/
I've used Ubuntu since 2006 and started using Kubuntu (I prefer KDE) about 2 years ago. Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) are very solid for gaming. It puzzles me how often I see highly customized distros like Bazzite and CachyOS touted for gaming after looking into some of the wild tweaks those distros do; it's amazing to me that they run at all.
As someone who used Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse, Arch) exclusively from 2010 and recently moved to bazzite, I only see positives from the switch.
Most of my usecases work OOTB, and for everything else I use a container workflow. I like that there are fewer ways to mess up upgrades. I like that flatpaks are well integrated.
Fedora Silverblue user here. Lutris (from flatpak) can play GoG games fine (*).
(*): Apparently achievement support even on single player games requires the gamestore client (GoG client in my case) and Lutris doesn't support that yet. Am old enough to not care :p
> (idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro)
Trust me it was far more involved of a process 10 years ago, and that's why people liked it.
The modern install process is paired down to something like 10 steps. Start the ISO, configure your partitions, mount your root and boot, and use the delightful arch-chroot tool to enter and install in those partitions. Set up your user, configure your boot manager, exit the chroot, reboot, remove the install media, and boot into your bare bones system.
The install ISO has all the networking drivers and other tools you may need to bootstrap your new install, you just need to remember to do it. It's obviously not for total newbies but it's no gentoo, lfs, or even old arch.
I've had graphical installs inexplicably lock up or silently fail before, so it could be nice on a minimal system.
Personally, I get joy out of setting up a new machine exactly how I want. I haven't broken an arch install bad enough to require re-installing in almost 10 years so its rare I'm actually installing it anyway. If I want a system up quick I'll pick another distro.
I use Arch but don't want to fiddle with stuff anymore.
Installing via the archinstall command was pretty easy. Not quite as easy as a Fedora or Ubuntu install, but for someone familiar with Linux, it's negligible.
Yeah, my last arch install was my last. It was fun to rice my system and setting up everything from scratch 4 or 5 times taught me a lot about operating systems and computers. Ultimately my setup is not significantly different than any other distro, it's just that I installed the packages and did configs myself. I'll be fine with a minimally riced system, if I ever even need to install an OS again.
> I know its a "meme" to talk about how great Arch is, but when you want the latest of something, Arch has it
I love my Arch installs to death, but I feel like I'm the oddball out about the mess that is AUR. The main repositories have a lot of things but I always end up getting pushed to AUR and then it just feels like I bolted on a hack rather than pacman/the arch base just supporting AUR more like a different package source normally.
There was some 3D printer slicer software I needed that wouldnt run, when I finally figured out why it had to do with GLIBC being out of date. I have used Debian since like 2008, and Ubuntu since the mid 2010s so I am accustomed to doing PPA's and what not, but something in me broke and I wanted to finally try something more bleeding edge. I nearly went for Fedora but the version I wanted to try didn't even boot (I don't like to waste any time with command line incantations anymore) so I looked up EndeavourOS I don't remember how I found it, I think a friend said someone they knew used it (turns out they dont LOL) so I gave it a shot.
I had bad experiences with Arch before because of Manjaro, but in hindsight, I think the main issues I had were more to do with how Pacman can get insanely nuanced. When you update packages you have to know what you're doing, it will update all weird, its not like Debian or Ubuntu upgrades where it installs / uninstalls what you do and don't need unless you tell it to be that nuanced.
Long term stability is less important for gaming computers than having the most cutting edge (and theoretically highest performance) drivers. That's why the community leans so heavily towards arch.
I'm genuinely curious as to what the key differences are (especially those that would cause someone to switch), as someone who is pretty tech savvy but whose use of Linux as a daily driver is admittedly pretty weak.
You usually try a few distros, until you find the one that does whenever you needed, and then you stick with it for 15 years ;)
From my own experience: 15 years ago, when (except for academia), Linux was very nisje, it was hard to use it. Random rare errors would pop up. On Windows you would know someone who knew what to do, but with Linux? So I chose Ubuntu, because it had the most support. Solution to any error could be found on askubuntu (?) forums. But if you had a friend, you would choose his system and get help from him. I once had university admins very happy to help me with something and even give me some tips.
Nowadays it really doesn't matter that much, other than extra easy (with an LLM everything is already easy) installation of drivers (POP os?)/initial programs you used on Windows (on Mate it takes 10min due to a special GUI appstore).
BUT there are reasons to switch. Like Ubuntu's pushing of very annoying snaps, making it very hard to get Firefox without a snap. Snaps are annoying, because they don't have a cleaning mechanism and old versions just clog your hard drive. They take forever to launch and it's just not a good idea for a browser. Don't mind snaps for other things.
There is also Desktop Environment support and support for hidpi monitors and such.
Other than that, there is a little of philosophy. Like super FOSS and idealistic like Debian (i guess? Pls correct me if I'm wrong). Or more business aligned, like Redhat/Fedora. Or elitist that like to waste their users time and make them read manuals for fdisk like Arch, where you have to format your hard drive without GParted or any other GUI.
I'm no pro, but that's a little that came to mind if you wanted to know what mattered in the past.
not OP, but for some it might be availability of latest versions packages (say, you've heard about new major version of Bash or Vim being released today, and wondering how soon it might be available in your distro packages), and, as someone else mentioned, less update stress due to lack of "major version bumps" - just remember to subscribe to https://archlinux.org/news/ and watch out for entries requiring "manual intervention".
I would say EndeavourOS is the "Ubuntu" to "Arch" if you will. The installer is easy, and it comes with "yay" out of the box which is a frontend to Pacman which holds your hand in just the right ways. If I want to update my OS I type "yay" into a terminal, hit enter and confirm the packages needing updating (or select which ones I want) and type my password, and that's it. In the past with Manjaro I did a system update with Pacman, and problems ensued.
I'm currently on Pop, but have an install of Cachy ready once I have some time and a stable connection. My main gripe of Pop (other than the COSMIC issues) was mostly audio issues with how they set up PipeWire and regressions with some releases. Do you find Arch to be a bit less of a headache when dealing with drivers?
My spare PC runs Win10. Was able to install it without internet and thus get an offline account.
Since they stopped full updates for it, it's a lot less annoying. Almost all the nags were at reboot time, usually triggered by the update giving it a new thing to nag about. Only thing now is it'll ask me once a month about either OneDrive or Win11, which is bad but tolerable.
I just got a new work laptop: the ThinkPad X1 Carbon gen13. It's gorgeous: weighs a bit over 900 grams, has an amazing matte OLED screen, Intel Lunar Lake that sips power (1-2W idle) and is fast enough to compile Rust if needed, amazing keyboard, touchpad is great but I just use the trackpoint, everything works from the box on Linux (they even deliver it with either Fedora or Ubuntu, but I installed CachyOS).
Suspend: works always.
Battery life: great, the whole day.
Wifi: works always, connects fast, works fast.
The build quality is really nice, especially the carbon fiber body that doesn't feel so cold/hot to touch.
If you have older Mac (based on the Intel CPUs), then it may actually already work out of the box for you to run linux. I'm running Debian on Macbook Pro 2015, fully replaced the original system and I haven't looked back.
There actually is an installer for arch. I haven't tried it myself, but there should be an application included on the ISO called archinstall which helps with basically everything that's part of the install guide on the Arch wiki.
If I am understanding correctly, you were using Windows without a licence? I think that's more the problem here, as Windows does provide a way to have offline accounts, you just didn't want to pay for it.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Simplicity, among other reasons. Installers force the users hand and need maintenance. Having no installer but rather a detailed installation guide offers unlimited freedom to users. Installation isn't difficult either, you just pacstrap a root filesystem and configure the bootloader, mounts and locale.
ArchLinux does now have an installer called archinstall, but it's described more as a library than a tool. It allows you to automate the installation using profiles.
Just to paint an example, if I am installing Arch I like to have:
* A user configured through systemd-homed with luks encryption
* The limine bootloader
* snapperd from OpenSUSE with pacman hooks
* systemd-networkd and systemd-resolved
* sway with my custom ruby based bar
* A root filesystem in a btrfs subvolume, often shared across multiple disks in raid0
If you were to follow the installation guide it will tell you to consider these networking/bootloader/encryption options just fine. But trying to create an installer which supports all these bleeding edge features is futile.
Also if you want 'Arch with sensible defaults' CachyOS is basically that, people think of it as a 'gaming distro' but that's not an accurate characterisation. I use it as a daily driver on my personal machine mostly for non-gaming work and it's an excellent distro.
There is though the TUI installer, not like it used to be where the commands were typed in following the wiki. Not that there was anything wrong with the 'manual' mode, it gave you insight into the basic building blocks/configurations right from the start.
It's been a very long time since I moved to Arch, but I swear that something like 12 years ago it did have some form of menu-driven installer.
Nowadays, there are so many ways to partition the drive (lvm, luks, either one on top of the other; zfs with native encryption or through dm-crypt), having the efi boot directly a unified kernel image or fiddle with some bootloader (among a plethora of options)...
One of the principal reasons why I love Arch is being able to have a say in some of these base matters, and would hate to have to fight the installer to attain my goals. I remember when Ubuntu supported root on zfs but the installer didn't it was rather involved to get the install going. All it takes with Arch is to spend a few minutes reading the wiki and you're off to the races. The actual installation part is trivial.
But then again, if you have no idea what you want to do, staring at the freshly-booted install disk prompt can be daunting. Bonus points for it requiring internet for installation. I would have to look up the correct incantation to get the wifi connected on a newer PC with no wired ethernet, and I've been using the thing for a very long time.
> I gave up with Windows 10 because you needed Windows Pro in order to make an "offline" account
You quit without even trying.
Windows 10 and 11 can have all local accounts by using RUFUS to create the install media. And if your PC comes with Windows already installed, there are still commands - even with 25H2 - that allow you to bypass the Microsoft Account requirement during setup and configure a local account.
> It's the same amount of effort to install Linux and never have to question who the owner of your computer is again.
In many ways, Linux is a complete paradigm change away from what is familiar and known in Windows, requiring a complete re-training from top to bottom.
Modifying the OOBE to bypass Microsoft Account requirement and permit a local account is a pebble in the road compared to the alpine pass that is switching to Linux.
And just installing Linux isn’t the issue. Learning from scratch an entire OS that behaves and is structurally very differently than Windows, and requires hundreds of hours to get equally as comfortable and knowledgeable in, is the issue.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Linux. But to say it’s “the same amount” is deeply disingenuous and borderline anti-reality.
The meme was “I use Arch, BTW,” but I think it has mostly died as enough people have pointed out that Arch isn’t really hard-mode Linux or something. It is a barebones start but
1) very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
2) the skill barrier to getting a full system is “basic literacy, to read the wiki”
Eventually I switched to Ubuntu for some reason, it has given me more headaches than Arch.
> 1) very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
Having very frequent updates to bleeding edge software versions, often requiring manual intervention is not "stable". An arch upgrade may, without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
That's fine if you're continuously maintaining the system, maybe even fun. But it's not stable. Other distributions are perfectly capable of updating themselves without ever requiring human intervention.
> 2) the skill barrier to getting a full system is “basic literacy, to read the wiki”
As well as requiring you to be comfortable with the the linux command line as well as have plenty of time. My mom has basic literacy, she can't install ArchLinux.
ArchLinux is great but it's not a beginner-friendly operating system in the same way that Fedora/LinuxMint/OpenSUSE/Pop!_OS/Ubuntu/ElementOS are.
> Having very frequent updates to bleeding edge software versions, often requiring manual intervention is not "stable". An arch upgrade may, without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
12 in the last year if you used all the software (I don’t many people are running dovecot and zabbix), so probably actually like 3 for most users: https://archlinux.org/
That’s not too dissimilar from what you’d get running stable releases of Ubuntu or Windows. And of course plenty of windows software will auto upgrade itself in potentially undesired ways, windows users just don’t blame the OS for that
I don't just mean the types of manual intervention mentioned in the news. ArchLinux ships bleeding edge software to users with very little downstream changes. ArchLinux also replaces config files when upgrading. This is inherently different behavior from stable release distributions like Ubuntu.
ArchLinux is not an operating system where you can do an unattended upgrade and forget about it. That's not "bad" or "good", that's just a design choice.
Arch replaces _unmodified_ config files when changing. It’s not an uncommon behaviour in software to update defaults to the new defaults.
If you have a modified config file, it puts the new default one in a .pacnew file for you to compare, which seems strictly better to just deleting the new default one.
Huh you're right, I must've confused myself by removing/installing instead of upgrading recently.
Anyway I think the discussion boils down to semantics. ArchLinux is not "unstable" in the sense that it is prone to breaking. But it also delivers none of the stability promises that stable release distros or rolling release distros with snapshotting and testing like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed deliver. To call ArchLinux stable would make every distribution stable, and the word would lose all meaning.
Most distributions promise that an upgrade always results in a working system. Instead moving the manual maintenance to major release upgrades.
> without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
This is just nonsense, pacman doesn't do this. If you'd modified a config file, it will create a .pacnew version instead of replacing it. Otherwise you'll get the default config synced with the version of the software you've installed, which is desirable.
It's pretty rare to modify any config files outside of ~/.config these days anyway. What few modifications I have at the system level are for things like mkinitcpio, locale, etc and they never change.
> very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
Can you elaborate on the chain of thought here? The small changes at high frequency means that something is nearly constantly in a <CHANGED> state, quite opposite from stable. Rolling release typically means that updates are not really snapshotted, therefore unless one does pull updates constantly they risk pulling a set of incompatible updates. Again, quite different from stable.
It's the same train of thought as the modern cloud software notion that deploying small changes more often is safer than bundling "releases"; if you upgrade 3 packages 3x a week (or deploy 50 lines of code 3x a week), you catch small issues quickly and resolve them immediately, rather than upgrading 400 packages 1x a year (or deploying 50,000 lines of code 2x a year), where when things break you have a rather tall order just to triage what failed.
I think there are advantages to both, but I will say that I've found modern Arch to be quite good. The other huge benefit of Arch is the general skill level present in the user base and openness of the forums; when something breaks it's usually easy to google "arch + package name broken" and immediately find a forum thread with a real fix.
I don't think I'd use Arch for a corporate production server for change management reasons alone, but for a home desktop and my home server, it's actually the distribution that's required me to do the _least_ "Linux crap" to keep it going.
It’s stable in the way that a person taking small predictable steps at a time is stable compared to somebody who making large random lurching steps. Sure, the system is often changed, but if only a few packages have changed, should there be a problem it is easy to identify the culprit.
Although it is hard to say. Ubuntu also has, I guess, intentional behavior that is hard to distinguish from a bug, like packages switching from apt to snap. So it might just be that my subjective experience feels more buggy.
I think op meant the subjective feeling of having a system that runs in a stable manner.
I don't quite follow their reasoning either (maybe the smaller changesets expose compatibility bugs before affecting general ux?), but I agree that arch was a joy for me to use and felt "stable".
I know. I was emphasising that this time is not like before. That there are major differences, and things look similar only on a very superficial level.
I've started my Linux journey a decent year ago. It's been fun but I'm happy that they're such a great community to troubleshoot along with me. Never tried Arch but I do love a barebones no fuzz system.
You spent $2000 on a new machine but wouldn’t shell out another $20-30 for a windows pro key? You’re willing to burn a bunch of time fiddling with getting a completely new operating system setup, but you’re not willing to spend a few minutes fiddling with setting up an offline windows account?
I get that maybe that was the final straw or something, but come on, “I switched to Linux because I didn’t want to take an hour to set up Windows” really sounds like you never really wanted Windows in the first place, you were just looking for an excuse.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Because Arch maintainers are a bunch of elitist gatekeepers that don't accept any level of knowledge that is lower than theirs. You can see that through every forum interaction generally and any discussion about the installation process specifically.
Arch is great btw. It could be greater, if all maintainers would quit.
As a long-time Linux user who fairly recently dropped the Windows partition entirely, I do think the remaining chafing points are these:
* UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess. And now you don't just have different versions of GTK vs QT to keep track off, but also X vs Wayland, and their various compatibility layers.
* Support for non-standard DPI monitors sucks, mostly because of the previous point. Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
* Anything to do with configuring webcams feels like you're suddenly in thrown back 20 years into the past. It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't. Hoo boy.
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess
I thought you were talking about Windows there. There are 4 (5?) different UI paradigms within Windows, and doing one thing sometimes requires you to interact with each of them.
At least on Linux, with GTK/KDE, you can pick a camp and have a somewhat consistent experience, with a few outliers. Plus many apps now just use CSD and fully integrate their designs to the window, so it's hopeless to have every window styling be consistent.
I never had to mind X vs Wayland when starting user applications tho.
If we're talking about mass adoption of Linux then there really has to be no concept of even "picking a camp". The vast majority of users - even techy people - will not understand what a window manager is, never mind be capable of choosing one.
Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
Hard disagree. You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example). That's not a hurdle it's a feature.
Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things.
Linux user for decades, but headless since the early aughts. Decided to dip my toes back into the desktop space with Mint Cinnamon.
I can mirror or run lots of phone apps on Windows or macOS, but ironically, not Linux. I decide to run an Android emulator so I can use some phone-only apps.
I read up on reviews, then download and install Waydroid as the top contender.
Does Waydroid work? No. It fails silently launching from the shortcut after the install. Run it from the command line, and, nope, it's a window manager issue. Mint Cinnamon uses X11, not Wayland, and Waydroid apparently needs... Wayland support.
OK, I log out, log into Mint with Wayland support, then re-launch Waydroid. My screen goes into a fugue state where it randomly alternates between black and the desktop. Try a variety of things, and I guess this is just how it is. Google and try any number of fixes, end up giving up.
Yes, that's my old pal Linux on the Desktop. Older, faster and wiser, but still flaky in precisely the same ways.
You can't run X11 programs on Wayland without Xwayland.
Likewise you cannot run Wayland programs on X11 without a wayland compositor like Cage (a wayland kiosk) or Weston. Both run as a window on X11 inside of which Waydroid works just fine.
It's an odd complaint that incompatible software is incompatible.
I did. I agree it's not obvious.
But you cannot run OpenGL, Vulkan, Glide or DirectX on Windows either without having the proper hardware and software installed.
So yeah. Waydroid needs wayland. Anbox runs on X11.
> OpenGL, Vulkan, Glide or DirectX on Windows either without having the proper hardware and software installed
Windows will run at least basic OpenGL and DirectX in software if you don't have hardware to accelerate that, and those software renderers are included as part of the OS. It'll run like garbage, but it will run.
Bluestacks works fine for this on PC and Mac, and I've seen casuals use that because they want to play their gacha game on a bigger screen.
Waydroid compleatly fails in comparison, while giving you no pointers on what the problem might be or how to solve it unless you're already a Linux power user.
Headless daily driver? Hardcore. What do you use for a browser?
I've tried it as a challenge for a couple of days (lynx, mutt, some other TUI stuff) and it made some things like Vim stick (although that may have as much to do with that challenge as Tridactyl did). But I couldn't last longer than a week. It does free you from the burden of system requirements. CPU: Optional.
w3m can even display images in a linux console if you have the proper drivers or use KMSCON. It unwieldy but surprisingly usable. And my laptop battery runs for 8 hours which is quite amazing for a Zen1.
I imagine your display is almost entirely black for the majority of the time, with your (most probably) LCD backlight blasting away, trying its hardest to get a few thousandths of its light output through the few pixels on the screen that it can escape! XD
Brightness down, LAN card disabled (the media sense on RTL cards sucks about 1.5W with no cable plugged in, wtf? Thats more than the Wifi needs)
And powertop (great piece of software, thanks Intel) tuned to the max + powersave scheduler.
All that on Windows or KDE results in about 4-5h of battery though. So fbdev must be somehow really frugal.
> That's cause you're using a distro like mint which is using older builds of stuff.
The context here is that I was commenting on the parent's assertion that one "can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things." Nope!
> It will continue to degrade for you unless you fully switch to a Wayland DM. Anything built on X11 is basically deprecated now and no one is building on it anymore.
That's my impression as well, and again, with the 2nd most popular Linux distro using X11 by default and with "experimental" Wayland support, that only reinforces my rebuttal of parent's claim.
> Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
Just like Linux. You can run most if not all apps in any DE. Yes gnome will look ugly, but that's gnome's way of doing things. If you pick a decent DE, you will have most basic apps using the same styling, and the rest have CSD anyway.
Each GUI toolkit has its own specialties, but you'll use at most two of them, and they will be kept in separate apps. (Apart from flatpak portals which use gtk instead of the system's).
Windows has 3-5 different UI/UX layers within the same application ... And the rest have CSD anyway, so they look the same no matter the OS.
> Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
I mean this is a solved problem on linux using modern distributions like NixOS or even 'normal' distros with flatpak, appimage, etc. I haven't had to deal with anything like this in years.
The windows UIs are way more different than linux was. There was a time in the 90s where UIs were expected to follow platform specifics. These days, most UIs don't and they're almost kind of like the branding. Thus, this is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. If anything, things like the gnome apps and gtk4 are more consistent than any windows app.
No, it's not about users picking a camp, it's about developers.
It's been a long, long time since I've seen an application utterly fail to load because it's a GTK/QT/etc framework running under a totally different DE.
Gnome apps look ugly as hell under KDE[0], but they still work. As a user, you don't need to know or care in any way. It'll run on your machine.
[0]I don't know if they're ugly because of incompatibility or if that's just How Gnome Is. I suspect the latter
If there's something I hate about Linux, it's CSD (Client-Side Decorations, in case people don't know what it is).
If I wanted all my apps to look different from each other, I'd use macOS. I want a clean desktop environment, with predictable window frames that are customizable and they all look the same. CSD destroys that.
Having no CSD at all is unacceptable on small screens IMHO, far too much real estate is taken up by a title bar, you can be competitive with SSD by making them really thin, but then they are harder to click on and impossible with touch input. At the moment I have firefox setup with CSD and vertical tabs, only 7% of my vertical real estate is taken up by bars (inc. Gnome), which is pretty good for something that supports this many niceties.
Conversely, I don't want all of my apps to look identical to each other. I want to be able to tell with a submoment of a glance what app I am working on or looking for without having to cognitively engage to locate it, breaking my state of flow in the process.
You're defeating your own point. CSD in practice breaks a basic feature of the desktop : knowing at first glance which of the windows will receive whatever you type on the keyboard.
For eons the standard was: the only one with the title bar showing the theme accent color. That is consistent, predictable, keeps the user in the flow.
With CSD each app does whatever inconsistent thing they can fancy. You type and oops deleted something in the wrong window.
Alas now even many default SSD setups fail at this (selected and non-selected windows look pretty much the same) and keyboard-first workflow is much hindered.
I mean, most apps I use daily, no matter the OS, have CSD. Teams, Spotify, Slack, Firefox, Postman, IntelliJ etc...
Doesn't matter which OS they all have different styles. I can understand it's not liked by everyone, but that ship has sailed and no "big" app will use SSD anymore.
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess.
At least things look more or less the same over time. With commercial offerings one day you open your laptop and suddenly everything looks different and all the functions are in a different submenu because some designer thought it was cool or some manager needed a raise.
> It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't. Hoo boy.
LLMs are actually very useful for Linux configuration problems. They might even be the reason so many users made the switch recently.
Pair-programming Nix with Gemini has taught me a lot about the assistive power of LLMs.
They're still slow and annoying at languages I'm good at. But it's really handy to be able to take one I'm not (like Nix or even C++) and say "write me a patch that does …" Applying a lot of the same thinking/structuring skills, but not tripping on the syntax.
They're pretty good for most things, yes... but man was it rough figuring out getting my IP allocation routing right on my Proxmox server. The system is issued a primary IP, and need to route my subnet through that to my VMs... wasn't too bad once I got it working... I'd also wanted a dnat for "internal" services, and that's where it got tricky.
I need to refresh myself as I'm wanting to move from a /29 to a /28 ... mostly been lazy about not getting it done, but actually mqking progress oo some hobby stuff with Claude Code... definitely a force multiplier, but I'm not quite at a "vibe code" level of trust, so it's still a bit of a slog.
Where would those IPs route to/from if it didn't have a configured default gateway exactly?
The machine got a single IP, I had to route the CIDR block using that IP as the gateway in the host OS. The VMs wouldn't just get assigned additional real IPs.
> Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
I think Windows is the only other one which really does this properly, macOS also does the hack where they simulate fractional scales by rendering with an integer scale at a non-native resolution then scaling it down.
> I think Windows is the only other one which really does this properly
Windows is the only one that does this properly.
Windows handles high pixel density on a per-application, per-display basis. This is the most fine-grained. It's pretty easy to opt in on reasonably modern frameworks, too; just add in the necessary key in the resource manifest; done. [1]
Linux + Xorg has a global pixel density scale factor. KDE/Qt handles this OK; GNOME/GTK break when the scaling factor is not an integer multiple of 96 and cause raster scaling.
Linux + Wayland has per-display scaling factors, but Chromium, GNOME, and GTK break the same way as the Xorg setup. KDE/Qt are a bit better, but I'm quite certain the taskbar icons are sharper on Xorg than they are on Wayland. I think this boils down to subpixel rendering not being enabled.
And of course, every application on Linux in theory can handle high pixel density, but there is a zoo of environment variables and command-line arguments that need to be passed for the ideal result.
On macOS, if the pixel density of the target display is at least some Apple-blessed number that they consider 'Retina', then the 'Retina' resolutions are enabled. At resolutions that are not integer multiples of the physical resolution, the framebuffer is four times the resolution of the displayed values (twice in each dimension), and then the final result is raster-scaled with some sinc/Lanczos algorithm back down to the physical resolution. This shows up as ringing artifacts, which are very obvious with high-contrast, thin regions like text.
On non-retina resolutions, there is zero concept of 'scaling factor' whatsoever; you can choose another resolution, but it will be raster-scaled (usually up) with some bi/trilinear filtering, and the entire screen is blurry. The last time Windows had such brute-force rendering was in Windows XP, 25 years ago.
> Windows is the only one that does this properly. Windows handles high pixel density on a per-application, per-display basis.
This is not our [0] experience. macOS handles things on a per-section-of-window, per-application, per-display basis. You can split a window across two monitors at two different DPIs, and it will display perfectly. This does not happen on Windows, or we have not found the right way to make it work thus far.
> macOS handles things on a per-section-of-window, per-application, per-display basis.
No, it does not. If you have two displays with different physical pixel densities, and especially if they are sufficiently different that Apple will consider one 'Retina' and 'not Retina' (this is usually the case if, for instance, you have your MacBook's display—which probably is 'Retina'—beneath a 2560 × 1440, 336 × 597 mm monitor, which is 'not Retina'), then the part of the window on the non-Retina display will be raster-scaled to account for the difference. This is how KDE Plasma on Wayland handles it, too.
In my opinion, any raster-scaling of vector/text UI is a deal-breaker.
I think the only case where raster scaling is not a deal breaker is a window spanning high and low DPI displays. That is unless the app delegates compositing to the OS compositor which could then raster the contents at the different scales correctly. Not all content can be delegated to the OS - video games for example.
I think there’s one group of people who consider preserving the physical dimensions important that like the macOS approach. For me, if a window is across multiple displays then it’s already broken up and I’m not too bothered about that. What I care about is getting application UI to a reasonable size without blurring. MacOS doesn’t do that.
Actually, the default in MacOS is that the window is only on one monitor, and its the monitor where the cursor was when you last moved the window, so you might have a window appearing invisible because you dragged it near the corner and some sliver ended on another monitor.
Look at this complicated tinkering MacOS makes you do for something as simple as spanning windows across monitors! https://www.arzopa.com/blogs/guide/how-to-make-a-window-span... (OK this last part is slightly facetious but Linux gets dinged for having to go into menus because the writer wants something to work the way it does in on other operating systems the whole time)
ChromeOS also does fractional scaling properly because Chrome does it properly. The scaling factor is propagated through the rendering stack so that content is rastered at the correct scale from the beginning instead of using an integer scaling factor and then downscaling later. And it takes subpixel rendering into account too, which affects things like what elements can be squashed into layers backed by GPU textures.
I think Android does it properly too because they have to handle an entire zoo of screen sizes and resolutions there. Although they don't have the issue of dealing with subpixel rendering.
> then the final result is raster-scaled with some sinc/Lanczos algorithm back down to the physical resolution. This shows up as ringing artifacts, which are very obvious with high-contrast, thin regions like text.
I don't think this is true. I use non-integer scaling on my Mac since I like the UX to be just a little bit bigger, and have never observed any kind of ringing or any specific artifacts at all around text, nor have I ever heard this as a complaint before. I assume it's just bilinear or bicubic unless you have evidence otherwise? The only complaint people tend to make is ever-so-slight additional blurriness, which barely matters at Retina resolution.
Indeed, these artifacts sound like they're coming from Display Stream Compression [1] rather than scaling. I've had Macs occasionally use DSC when it wasn't necessary; power-cycling the display and/or changing the port it's plugged into usually fixed it. If it's consistently happening, though, it's probably because the display, the cable, the port, and/or the GPU can't handle the resolution and refresh rate at full bandwidth.
All are ringing artifacts, typical of downscaling. I no longer have a Mac (chose one for work to try it out, saw this issue, returned it immediately), but I assure you this is what happens.
> The only complaint people tend to make is ever-so-slight additional blurriness
At no scale factor should there be any blurriness unless a framebuffer resolution is explicitly set. The 'scale factor' should be entirely independent of the physical resolution, which macOS simply does not do.
Apple's understanding and implementation of 'Retina' comes from a singular source: the straightforward doubling in each dimension of the display resolution of the iPhone 4 compared to the iPhone 3GS. It has not changed since, and has applied this algorithm throughout its OS stack.
All of these involve external monitors as far as I can tell, so it seems more likely it's the Display Stream Compression mentioned by the sibling to your comment that is the culprit.
Like I said, absolutely nothing like that happens on my display. I see the ringing in the first link. That doesn't happen to me. Not even a hint of it.
I get you don't like the scaling, but like I said, the very slight blurriness just isn't really noticeable in practice, especially given how Macs antialias text to begin with. Of all my complaints about Macs, this particular one is close to the bottom.
I gotta say, as the guy who brought up DSC, that last Reddit post especially had me doubting. That is not what DSC artifacts look like. DSC subsamples the chroma, which causes distinct color bleeding issues. That is luma bloom, which doesn't happen with DSC.
So I took my Mac Mini, hooked up to a 4K monitor, verified there were no DSC artifacts at native resolution, set it to "2560x1440" and sure enough the same artifacts appeared for me too, but still no telltale signs of DSC. So yeah, I gotta say, this is on Apple. Between this and dropping subpixel antialiasing support for text, it's pretty clear that their only properly supported configuration is 2x scaling on high-DPI displays.
OK, I just grabbed my loupe to make sure I'm not missing anything, and pulled up an app in dark mode (so ringing should be more visible) on my MBA M4. I'm using its built-in display. I've cycled through all 4 available resolution settings in Display, and absolutely zero artifacts or ringing. Then tried connecting to my LG UltraFine 4K which connects over Thunderbolt, that gives 5 resolution settings instead of 4, and zero artifacts/ringing on any of those either.
So I have no idea what's going on. I don't doubt that you're seeing it, and it's there in that Reddit photo. But maybe it's something specific to external monitors over a certain connection type or something? Seems very strange that Apple would use a different downsampling algorithm under different circumstances though.
I'd normally assume the most likely culprit would be some kind of sharpening setting on a monitor, as that can absolutely cause the type of ringing seen in that Reddit photo. But on the other hand, if you're testing it right now and not seeing it at native 2x, then that would seem to be ruled out, at least in your case. Maybe it's some kind of resolution negotiation mismatch where it's actually the monitor applying a second scaling that has ringing, since monitors can accept signals that don't match their native hardware resolution?
I can get a mild form of it on my M4 MBP's built-in display at "1800x1125"* but it's not nearly as noticeable as it was on the 4K external display at "2560x1440" and honestly I needed my cell phone camera zoomed in to definitively identify it, so that was more of a fishing expedition than a real problem. However, I have tried 2 different Macs, 2 different 4K monitors (both LG UltraFine also, though they differ in firmware version and color reproduction because of course they do), and 2 different interfaces (HDMI, Thunderbolt), and I can reliably replicate it under all of those combinations. I think that exact scaling factor probably has a bad interaction with the scaling algorithm. I do agree that a lot of other scalings do not produce the ringing/halo/bloom effect.
* = You have to go click "Advanced...", enable "Show resolutions as list", then when back on the main Displays page, enable "Show all resolutions", to get this and many other options -- but this is only necessary on the internal display, the external display offers "2560x1440" as a non-advanced choice
I've repeatedly explained that's not the case. Not on any Mac I've ever owned, and I already explained I thoroughly investigated my current M4 MBA. It's not showing.
That just means you can't perceive it. Sorry, but raster scaling is how Apple's algorithm works, and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it is not the case.
For the record, this isn't just visual. Rasterising to a framebuffer that is considerably larger than the physical resolution and then scaling produces a tangible effect on battery life. Not that it matters much with the impressive efficiency of the M-series SoCs, but it is there nonetheless.
I work a lot with Photoshop. I've studied digital signal processing. Believe me, I will perceive ringing when it's there.
You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding. Yes, raster scaling is how it works. I haven't disputed that anywhere.
I'm saying the ringing artifact specifically that you're complaining about is not happening on my setup, nor does it seem to be widespread. You were complaining about the specific Lanczos algorithm due to its noticeable ringing, I'm saying that therefore doesn't seem to be the algorithm being used on mine, nor is there any documentation that's the algorithm Apple uses. Your criticism seems to be based on partially wrong information, even if something like it seems to happen on certain external displays -- whatever it is, it's not a universal problem.
If you somehow missed my other comment, please read it:
This is a surprising opinion to encounter, given my experience with scaling on Windows, where simple things like taking my laptop off its dock (going from desktop monitors to laptop screen) causes applications to become blurry, and they stay blurry even when I've returned the laptop to the dock. Or how scaling causes some maximized window edges to show up on the adjacent screen. Or all manner of subtle positioning and size bugs crop up.
Is this more of an aspirational thing, like Windows supports "doing it right", and with time and effort by the right people, more and more applications may be able to be drawn correctly?
[edit] I guess so, I see your comment about setting registry keys to make stuff work in Microsoft's own programs. That aligns more closely with my experience.
Not sure about the underlying reason, but I use Windows for work and the only program I've encountered in the past two years with this behavior is the Eclipse IDE. Everything else deals very well with rescaling and docking / undocking to 4k displays.
These were probably written against the old-school Win32. It's pretty easy to fix.
Right-click on the `.exe`
Properties
Compatibility tab
Change settings for all users
Change high DPI settings
Under 'High DPI scaling override' section, tick box for 'Override high DPI scaling behaviour. Scaling performed by'
In the drop-down box below, select 'Application'
Done.
For MMC snap-ins like `diskmgmt.msc`, `services.msc`, or `devmgr.msc`, there's a Registry key you can set. See this ServerFault question: https://serverfault.com/q/570785/535358
The 'doing it right' part is from how it should be done, but it still needs application support.
The thing is X11/Xorg can also theoretically do the same thing (and most likely Wayland too) but it needs, you guessed it, application (and window manager / compositor) support.
> The last time Windows had such brute-force rendering was in Windows XP, 25 years ago.
To be fair, UXGA was a thing 20 years ago. I don't think it makes sense for Apple to care all that much about low DPI monitors. They don't sell any, and they wouldn't be acceptable to most Apple people, who have had crisp displays available for > 10 years now. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Apple users on low dpi is single digit percentage.
That's roughly what I did for my ANSI console/viewer... I started with EGA resolution, and each ega pixel renders 3x4 in its' buffer then a minor blur, then scaled to fit the render area. The effect is really good down to about 960px wide, which is a bit bigger in terms of real pixels than the original... at 640px wide, it's a little hard to make out the actual pixels... but it's the best way I could think of to handle the non-square pixels of original EGA or VGA... I went with EGA because the ratio is slightly cleaner IMO. It's also what OG RIPterm used.
I have precisely one Windows thing I use regularly, and it has a giant window that needs lots of pixels, and I use it over Remote Desktop. The results are erratic and frequently awful.
> * UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous me
I'd take balkanization over the "we force-migrate everyone to the hot new thing where nothing works".
> It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't.
Drivers are a pain point and will probably stay so until the market share is too large for the hardware vendors to ignore. Which probably aren't happening any time soon, sadly.
This is not a driver issue I'm talking about. It's a "best way to adjust the white balance is with this GTK+-2.0 app that hasn't seen maintenance since the Bush administration" issue.
> I'd take balkanization over the "we force-migrate everyone to the hot new thing where nothing works".
The UI framework for macOS has not changed in any substantial design-update-requiring ways since OS X was first released. They did add stuff (animations as a core concept, most notably).
The UI framework for Windows has changed even less, though it's more of a mess because there are several different ones, with an unclear relationship to each other. win32 won't hurt though, and it hasn't changed in any significant ways since dinosaurs roamed the silicon savannahs.
The UI framework for Linux ... oh wait, there isn't one.
I had to dump a perfectly fine c.2012 workstation recently because of video driver limitations. Could no longer stay current on my flavor of Linux (OpenSUSE) and have better than hideous display resolution limited to just one monitor. NVIDIA’s proprietary drivers are great, but the limited support lifecycle plus poor open source coverage is actually making Linux turn fine systems into trash just the way Windows used to do.
>poor open source coverage is actually making Linux turn fine systems into trash just the way Windows used to do.
I'd blame Linux as a very small percentage of the problem here. This is on NVIDIA ensuring their hardware doesn't last to long and forcing you to throw it away eventually. Open source can make the monitor 'work' but really aren't efficient, and really can never be efficient because NVIDIA doesn't release the needed information and directly competes with their proprietary driver.
Couldn't you swap out for a now lower level AMD GPU? An RX 6600 should be under $200 and likely at least as good as what you were running... unless you were doing specific CUDA workloads. Even on PCIe 2/3, it should be fine.
On UI frameworks... mostly agree, I say this as a COSMIC user even... so many apps still don't show up right in the tray, but it's getting a bit better, I always found KDE to be noisy, and don't like how overtly political the Gnome guys are. So far Wayland hasn't been bad, X apps pretty much just work, even if they don't scale right.
I'm on a very large OLED 3440x1440 display and haven't had too many issues... some apps seem to just drop out, I'm not sure if they are on a different workspace or something as I tend to just stick to single screen, single display. I need to take the time to tweak my hotkeys for window pinning. I'll usually have my browser to half the screen and my editor and terminal on the other half... sometimes stretching the editor to 2/3 covering part of the browser. I'm usually zoomed in 25-30% in my editor and browser... I'd scale the UI 25% directly, like on windows or mac, but you're right it's worse.
For webcams, I don't use anything too advanced, but the Nexigo cams I've been using lately have been working very well... they're the least painful part of my setup, and even though I tend to use a BT headset, I use the webcam mic as switching in and out of stereo/mono mode for the headset mic doesn't always work right in Linux.
On audio filtering, I can only imagine... though would assume it's finally starting to get better with whatever the current standard is (pipewire?), which from what I understand is closer to what mac's interfaces are. I know a few audio guys and they hate Windows and mostly are shy to even consider Linux.
I'm using KDE with Wayland and 2 non-standard DPI monitors (one at 100% the other at 150% scale). No workarounds needed, nothing is blurry. I think your experience comes from GNOME which lacks behind in this regard.
FWIW, I can do the same with KDE on Xorg with Gentoo Linux.
Since the introduction of the XSETTINGS protocol in like 2003 or 2005 or so to provide a common cross-toolkit mechanism to communicate system settings, the absence of "non-integer" scaling support has always been the fault of the GUI toolkits.
> I think your experience comes from GNOME which lacks behind in this regard.
When doesn't GNOME lag behind? Honestly, most of Wayland's problems have been because a project that expects protocol implementers and extenders to cooperate in order to make the project work set those expectations while knowing that GNOME was going to be one of those parties whose cooperation was required.
The issue with X11 is that it's not dynamic. Think using a laptop, which you sometimes connect to a screen on which you require a different scale. X11 won't handle different scales, and it also won't switch from one to the other without restarting it.
No, it is. Maybe you're using an ancient (or misconfigured) Xorg? Or maybe you've never used a GTK program? One prereq is that you have a daemon running that speaks the ~20 year old XSETTINGS protocol (such as 'xsettingsd'). Another prereq is that you have a DE and GUI toolkit new enough to know how to react to scaling changes. [0]
Also, for some damn reason, QT and FLTK programs need to be restarted in order to render with the new screen scaling ratio, but GTK programs pick up the changes immediately. Based on my investigation, this is a deficiency in how QT and FLTK react to the information they're being provided with.
At least on my system, the KDE settings dialog that lets you adjust screen scaling only exposes a single slider that applies to the entire screen. However, I've bothered to look at (and play with) what's actually going on under the hood, and the underlying systems totally expose per-display scaling factors... but for some reason the KDE control widget doesn't bother to let you use them. Go figure.
[0] I don't know where the cutoff point is, but I know folks have reported to me that their Debian-delivered Xorg installs totally failed to do "non-integer" scaling (dynamic or otherwise), but I've been able to do this on my Gentoo Linux machines for quite some time.
I use whatever package is shipped by arch, so I think I'm fairly up to date.
I did look a bit into this at one point, but I've found that it's mostly QT apps which work fine with different scaling (telegram comes to mind). GTK apps never did, but I admit I never went too deep in the rabbit hole. Didn't know there was supposed to be some kind of daemon handling this. I do run xsettingsd, but for unrelated reasons. I'll have a look if it can update things.
In any case, except for work, I always used everything at 100% and just scaled the text as needed, which worked well enough.
> I've bothered to look at (and play with) what's actually going on under the hood, and the underlying systems totally expose per-display scaling factors...
Would you care to go into some details? What systems are those and how do you notify them there's been a change?
That's also my setup, the external 4k monitor is roughly the same scale as my FHD laptop. I did this on purpose, to avoid having to mess around with scaling and just run everything at 100%.
But more and more laptops start having higher resolutions nowadays, and using my external screen at a scale of more than 100% would be a waste. But a 3-4k 14" laptop at 100% would be unusable.
the scaling and UI framework issues are by far my biggest pain point. I will inevitably end up with an app with tiny and/or blurry UI elements every few weeks and have to spend a ton of time figuring out the correct incantation to make it better.
This is on a pretty clean/fresh install of current ubuntu desktop
I'm a lifelong Mac user, but a gaming handheld has gotten me into some of these topics. I dual-boot SteamOS and Windows.
On SteamOS, my 5.1 stereo just works.
On Windows, apparently there was some software package called DTS Live (and/or Dolby Live) needed to wrap the audio stream in a container that the stereo understands. There was a time when there was a patent pool on the AC-3 codec (or something like that - I'm handwaving because I don't know all the details). So Microsoft stopped licensing the patent, and now you just can't use AC-3 on Windows. I spent an evening installing something called Virtual CABLE and trying to use it to juryrig my own Dolby Live encoder with ffmpeg… Never got it to work.
It's easy to fall deep into the tinkerhole on Linux, which has kept me away for a long time, but as mainstream platforms get more locked down, or stop supporting things they decide should be obsolete, it's nice to have a refuge where you're still in control, and things still work.
(Insert meme about the Windows API in Proton being a more stable target than actual Windows.)
Hardware support for esoteric things such as the new generation of Wacom EMR is still awkward --- I was able to get the previous gen working on a ThinkPad X61T using Lubuntu --- wish that there was such an easy way to try out Linux on my Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360....
> * Support for non-standard DPI monitors sucks, mostly because of the previous point. Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
This sounds like you're using some old software. GNOME and sway have clean fractional scaling without blurring, though that hasn't always been the case (it used to be terrible).
Fractional scaling on Wayland is only blurry for X apps, and even then, most apps have Wayland support at this point, so for the remaining apps, just turn off Xwayland scaling, and using native scaling through env vars and flags, and no more blurriness.
- Yes. I think big players in Linux should start supporting core functionalities in GNOME and KDE, and make it polished for laptops and desktops and that would be very cool. For a long time, KDE had a problem of having too many things under its umbrella. Now, with separation of Plasma Desktop and Applications, focusing on Plasma Desktop and KDE PIM should be a good step.
- Kind of ties to the old point: KDE on Wayland does this extremely well.
- You're back to 20 years because problems are exactly from 20 years ago. Vendors refusing to support linux with d rivers.
- Audio filtering? Interesting. I know people who use Pipewire + Jack quite reasonably. But may be you have usecase I am now aware of? Would be happy to hear some.
It would help if Gnome wasn't so hostile towards proper cross-DE interop. A famous quote by a Gnome dev goes, "I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an Xfce app unfortunately"
They seem to genuinely believe that their way is the right way and everyone else is "holding it wrong" so there's no need for things that would make cross-DE apps easier (or even possible).
I've also been running fractional scaling on Sway for many years now and native wayland applications are not blurry. X11 apps run through XWayland will be blurry, but I don't have any legacy X11 apps remaining on my system.
I use Linux as my daily driver, with a Mac laptop. I only use Windows when I absolutely have to (i.e., testing), and usually through a VM.
Some other rough edges in Linux I've encountered:
- a/v support in various apps. We use Slack for everything (I can't just use something else) and a/v support is pretty bad to where my video frame rate is now ~1Hz and screen share shows a black rectangle. I think that's mostly Slack's fault as Google Hangouts works fine, but it's probably low on their priority list.
- sleep / hibernation is still sometimes flakey. occasionally it won't wake up after hibernating overnight, and I have to hard reboot (losing any open files though that's not an issue)
- power management on laptops (and therefore battery life) is still worse than Windows, and way worse than Mac. I tried Framework + Linux for a while and really wanted to love it, but switched to a Mac and am not going back (still run Linux on desktop). There is nothing out there that compares to the M-series MacBooks.
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess.
Amen.
But, which OS doesn't have this problem? I'm currently running windows on a work laptop and even freaking first-party apps have a different look and behave differently from one another. Teams can't even be assed to use standard windows notifications! And don't get me started on electron apps, of which most apps are nowadays, each coming with their own look and feel.
Also, have you tried switching from light to dark mode, say at night? The task manager changes only partially. The explorer copy info window doesn't even have a dark mode! On outlook the window controls don't change colour, so you end up with black on black or white on white. You can't possibly hold up windows as a model of uniform UI.
So while I agree that this situation is terrible, I wouldn't pin it on the linux ecosystem(s).
> Every other major OS can deal with [high dpi].
Don't know about mac os, but on Windows it's a shitshow. We use some very high DPI displays at work which I have to run at 200%, every other screen I use is 100%. Even the freaking start menu is blurry! It only works well if I boot the machine with the high-dpi display attached. If I plug it in after a while (think going to work with the laptop asleep), the thing's blurry! Some taskbar icons don't adapt, so I sometimes have tiny icons, or huge cropped ones if I unplug the external monitor. Plasma doesn't do this.
IME KDE/Plasma 6 works perfectly with mixed DPI (but I admit I haven't tried "fractional" scales). The only app which doesn't play ball 100% is IntelliJ (scaling works, it's sharp, but the mouse cursor is the wrong size).
> Audio filtering is a pain to set up.
What do you mean? I've been using easyeffects for more than five years now to apply either a parametric EQ to my speakers or a convolver to my headphones. Works perfectly for all the apps, or I can choose which apps it should alter. The PEQ adds a bit of a latency, but applications seem to be aware of it, so if I play videos (even youtube on firefox with gpu decoding!) it stays in sync. It detects the output and loads presets accordingly. I also don't have to reboot when I connect some new audio device, like BT headphones (well, technically, on Windows I don't anymore, either, since for some reason it can't connect to either of my headphones at all). I would love to have something similar on windows, but the best I found isn't as polished. It also doesn't support dark mode, so it burns my eyes at night.
macOS and Windows have a much smaller set of variants, and tend to ship a single UI with everything included with OS. Even the best single desktop Linux distros will ship divergent KDE and Gnome apps.
If you want essentially perfect high-DPI support out of the box and can afford higher end displays, use macOS. It just works. I see the comments above about scaling, and to that, I say: most people will never notice. However, a Win32 app being the wrong scale? They'll notice that.
But the real display weak point of Linux right now vs Windows is HDR for gaming. That's a real shitshow and it tends to just work on Windows.
I came to rely pretty heavily on Docker and WSL(2) in Windows. I was an insiders user for a bit over a decade, and worked with .Net and C# since it was "ASP+" ...
I had setup a dual boot when I swapped my old GTX 1080 for an RX 5700XT, figuring the "open source" drivers would give me a good Linux experience... it didn't. Every other update was a blank/black screen and me without a good remote config to try to recover it. After about 6 months it was actually stable, but I'd since gone ahead and paid too much for an RTX 3080, and gone back to my windows drive...
I still used WSL almost all day, relying mostly on VS Code and a Browser open, terminal commands through WSL remoting in Code and results etc. on the browser.
Then, one day, I clicked the trusty super/win menu and started typing in the name of he installed program I wanted to run... a freaking ad. In the start menu search results. I mean, it was a beta channel of windows, but the fact that anyone thought this was a good idea and it got implemented, I was out.
I rebooted my personal desktop back to Linux... ran all the updates and it's run smoothly since. My current RX 9070XT better still, couldn't be happier. And it does everything I want it to do, and there's enough games in Steam through Proton that I can play what I want, when I want. Even the last half year on Pop Coxmic pre-release versions was overall less painful than a lot of my Windows experiences the past few years. Still not perfect, but at least it's fast and doesn't fail in ways that Windows now seems to regularly.
Whoever is steering Windows development at Microsoft is clearly drunk at the wheel over something that should be the most "done" and polished product on the planet and it just keeps getting worse.
I want to chime in here. It's advertisements on my desktop that repels me. There is something deeply personal about ads in my desktop that feels like being violated. This is a computer that I paid for, with software that I pay for, that includes all my most personal files and data. Seeing ads on the OS completely eroded my trust.
Of course, I still use Windows for various things, but I have too much "ick" for it to be the system where I check my email, manage my business, keep my important files, etc.
Windows is really great for lots of things, but I don't trust it.
I do not have ads in my start menu, and no, I didn't "debloat" my PC. This is a base install where I flipped a couple of settings in the start menu options.
It was a test they ran on Insiders channel to see how people reacted to them. It never mated it into GA, or for that matter the entire insiders channels... They'll feature gate things to some insiders users and A/B test them to see how the user response looks. There was a bit of an uproar at the time for those that saw them, including myself... I ditched windows altogether (except my assigned work laptop).
I think some form of ads made it into the release channel. I recently did a clean install of Windows 11 25H2 and I could not figure out how to get App Store ads out of the search results in the start menu. That and a game working better on Linux than Windows was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me and I installed Ubuntu.
The OS has been full of ads for years. TV channel BS xbox this and that. You need magical PowerShell incantations w correct permissions etc to remove it. I saw ads in the Ubuntu installer! I’ve retreated back to FreeBSD and OpenSUSE Heaven help us.
The problem isn't that ads can be disabled. The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place. Full stop. There's no universe where that's acceptable product design, and the fact that you can disable them (for now, at least) doesn't make it less offensive.
I don't understand why you're going to bat for a trillion-dollar corporation here. Your settings work now. Great. They won't after the next feature update, this is a well-documented pattern. Windows updates routinely re-enable telemetry, Bing integration, and promotional content that users explicitly disabled. You're not configuring your OS, you're fighting it.
The TPM2 requirement is pure planned obsolescence. Millions of perfectly good machines binned because Microsoft decided hardware from 2016 is suddenly "insecure"... whilst the actual benefit is DRM enforcement and remote attestation.
It's a corporate compliance tool, not a security feature.
The Insiders build being referenced had actual web advertisements in search results. That's where this is headed. If you're comfortable defending that trajectory, carry on flipping those settings.
The articles surrounding the insider builds gaining "ads" are from 2024--now 1.5 years ago. So whatever was implemented is in the OS at this point--particularly items that showed up in the "Beta" channel of Windows. There's nothing new or current surrounding new ad placement on Windows except some Copilot items throughout 2025, if you consider copilot an "ad" and not a useful tool similar to Notepad, or Office.
The TPM2 requirement (and kind of by extension the IOMMU requirement, which is the one itself that bit most people) has significantly more benefits than "DRM" or "planned obsolescence". For one, did you know that TPM1.2 didn't include SHA2? Would you be okay relying on SHA1 hashing in 2026 to be used for digital signing? Of course you wouldn't. If I told you today to go generate an X.509 certificate with SHA1 you're going to look at me funny. Did you know it also didn't include ECC? Also much more useful in this day and age for cryptographic speed. There are many other features I don't feel like digging into at the moment, but you get the point.
I would counter that the downstream requirement for the IOMMU (useful for Hypervisor Enforced Code Integrity), in which Windows itself is broken up into "Virtual Trust Levels" (VTL0, VTL1, and I think there are some newer ones now as well); is extremely useful for securing early parts of the platform boot.
Or did we collectively forget about the early rootkit era of Windows XP from 2005-2010 when running with legacy/MBR boot mechanisms?
Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security--and this goes for any platform: MacOS, Windows, Android, iOS, or Linux.
Apple, Google, and Microsoft have some form of integrity control over their platforms along with dedicated security chips. Short of some exploits, the most common vector to get into Windows' early boot process is to steal or abuse code IHV kernel driver signing certificates; or in some cases, be maliciously issued one from Microsoft (lol, now THAT is indeed a problem, but a tough one).
This is just part of modern platform security at this point so I don't really see the issue.
In addition, TPM2 offers significantly more storage and
> Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security
I notice you omitted the BSDs and with OpenBSD in particular I’d argue your point is correct for the majority school of thought but not necessarily most correct whatever that means. Correct for a certain set of priorities.
Modern OS attack surface is an insane nightmare. The concept of securing it at all is.. idk what it is. OpenBSD default install you run ps you get 12 processes. You can reason about the OS. You focus on you boundary. You don’t admit scenarios where your attacker is poking around usedland. That’s game over on these byzantine OSes we have now. Even better NetBSD where the arch is the security. The SELinux idea makes the best with what we have where you need Linux for driver whatever support. So I’m not disagreeing necessarily but adding context. As far as generating certs users are better off with piv yubikey etc for pki so it’s in their hands, literally
Yes, I paid for Windows 11. It came bundled with the £1,900 laptop I bought. The fact that the licence cost is hidden in the hardware price doesn't make it free.
And even if it were free, which it isn't, that still wouldn't justify ads. Android is free. Linux is free. Neither ships with gambling app promotions in the system UI.
Microsoft made $20 billion in Windows revenue last year. They're not a scrappy startup looking for alternative monetisation. The ads exist because they can get away with it, not because they need to.
> The fact that the licence cost is hidden in the hardware price doesn't make it free.
I appreciate manufacturers who make this obvious. For example, when I bought the Framework laptop I'm using now, the OS choices were preinstalled Windows 11 (default selection), preinstalled Linux (-$150), none/I'll install my own (-$150). Made it clear exactly what I would have been paying for the Windows license if I had chosen Windows.
Let me know when Android base OS has ads in the UI.
If the largest advertising company on the planet isn’t making it part of the base operating system — then that should tell you something, don’t you think?
Does the vanilla OS even run on any phones? To my knowledge a large part of the system functionality is implemented through google play services which isn't open source (and that's presumably why it's not part of the base system).
OEM volume pricing is $20 USD or so for system builders like Dell, HP, etc last time I saw it, but that was a long time ago. So technically yes it was purchased if you bought a system, it was just built into the price.
> The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place.
You never buy a laptop or pre-build? They are often full of ads that are not Microsoft Windows build in but add-on by the OEM.
Now i agree that Ads in your OS that you paid for, is a big nono. I never understood why Microsoft threats Home and Pro as almost the exact same. Sell Home for cheaper and with Ads, but keep the more expensive Pro clean. Microsoft can do that easily because Windows Server is just that ...
But on the Linux front, i have never been happy with the desktop experience. Often a lot of small details are missing, if the DE itself not outright crashes (KDE, master in Plasma/Widget crashes!). And so many other desktop feel like they have been made in the 90s (probably are) and never gotten updated.
And i do not run W11, still on old and very stable W10. There is no reason to upgrade that i see. Did the same with W7, for years after support ended (and by that time W10 was well polished and less buggy).
The problem is, what does Linux Desktop offer me more, then a few annoyances that i can remove after a fresh install? Often a lot more trouble with the need to use the terminal for things, that are ancient in Windows. That is the problem ... With Apple, you can get insane good M-CPU hardware (yes, mem/storage is insane), for the os/desktop switch.
I noticed that often the people who switch to Linux, are more likely to send more time into finetuning their OS, tinkering around, etc... aka people with more time on their hands. But when you get a bit older, you simply want something that works and gives you no trouble. I can literally upgrade my PC here from a NVidia to AMD or visa versa, and it will simply work with the correct full performance drivers. Its that convenience that is the draw to keep using (even ifs a older) Windows.
For now 25 years every few years, i look at upgrading to Linux permanently, install a few distro's and go back. Linus Desktop does not feel like you gain a massive benefit, if that makes sense? Especially not if your like me, who simply rides out Microsoft their bad OS releases. What is the killer features that you say, hey, Linux Desktop is insane good, it has X, Y, Z that Microsoft does not have, its ... That is the issue in my book. Yes, it has no adds but that is like 5 min work on a fresh install, a 2 min job of copy/past a cleanup script to remove the spyware and other crap and your good for year. So again, killer features?
Often a lot of programs that are less developed or stripped down compared to Windows, let alone way too often 90 style feels programs. You can tell its made by developers often, with no GUI / Graphical developers involved lol
I said it a 1000 times but Linux Desktop suffers from a lot of distro redoing the same time over and over again. Resulting in this lag ...
That is my yearly Linux rant hahaha. And yes, i know, W11 is a disaster but i simply wait it out on W10, and see what the future brings when the whole AI hype dies down and Microsoft loses too much customers. I am betting that somebody is going to get scared at MS and we then get a better W12 again.
I've been pretty happy with Pop in general, I did upgrade to COSMIC pre-release about 6 months ago, and although there have been rough edges, less than some of my Win11 experiences. I don't really fiddle that much in practice, I did spend a year with Budgie, but only the first week fiddling. Pop's out of the box is about 90% of what I want, which is better than most.
I do use a Macbook M1 Air for my personal laptop and have used them for work off and on over the years... I'm currently using a very locked down windows laptop assigned from work. Not having WSL and Docker have held me back a lot though.
In the end, I do most of my work in Linux anyway... it's where what I work on tends to get deployed and I don't really do much that doesn't work on Linux without issue at this point. Windows, specifically since Win11 has continued to piss me off and I jumped when I saw something that was just too much for me to consider dealing with. I ran insiders for years to get the latest WSL integrations and features. This bit me a few times, but was largely worth it, until it wasn't anymore.
C# work is paying the bills... would I rather work on Rust or TS, sure... but I am where I am. I'm similar to you in that I looked at Linux every few years, kicked the tires, ran it for a month or a couple weeks and always went back. This time a couple years ago... it stuck. Ironically, my grandmother used Linux much longer than I ever did on her computer that I maintained for her. For her, it just worked, and she didn't need much beyond the browser.
> You never buy a laptop or pre-build? They are often full of ads that are not Microsoft Windows build in but add-on by the OEM.
This was never acceptable, but we tolerated it because it subsidised the cost of the laptop, OEMs decided the trade-off and you could vote with your wallet for cleaner experiences (often with the same manufacturer).
Show me the ThinkPad T or X series (or EliteBook, or Precision/Latitude) that shipped with ads and I'll take it as a valid point. Otherwise, it's not valid.
Switching OSes is a major undertaking for power users, which I assume you are. Less so for someone who uses the browser, email, and plays some games.
As a power user, there's no point trying out OSes occasionally, unless that's your hobby. Think of it as switching between flying Boeings or Airbuses as a pilot; there's going to be a learning curve that you're going to have to commit to if you want the full benefits. I use the analogy to illustrate the point; OSes as users are definitely not nearly as complex to drive.
That said, the unstable experiences you're describing are odd. Maybe you're running into some odd edge case because that unstable experience hasn't been the case for mainstream Linux users for a couple of decades.
Neither is there a need to tinker with the big mainstream distros either. Most are install-and-forget these days and have been so for a while.
> if the DE itself not outright crashes (KDE, master in Plasma/Widget crashes!). And so many other desktop feel like they have been made in the 90s (probably are) and never gotten updated.
All modern Linux desktops feel more advanced than the corresponding windows version, IMO. I just installed standard Raspbian on a bunch of Raspi5s, and it feels snappier and more advanced than Windows already.
> I noticed that often the people who switch to Linux, are more likely to send more time into finetuning their OS, tinkering around, etc... aka people with more time on their hands. But when you get a bit older, you simply want something that works and gives you no trouble.
> Yes, it has no adds but that is like 5 min work on a fresh install, a 2 min job of copy/past a cleanup script to remove the spyware and other crap and your good for year. So again, killer features?
First thing you do after you install windows is fine tune it lol. For what it's worth, I just installed the latest debian on a Minisforum mini PC and it was clean and easy. Everything works out of the box, including bluetooth and gaming (surprisingly well given only has an integrated GPU). Same experience with two of my wifes laptops.
Now I did have issues with my desktop due to running bleeding edge hardware, but those all got resolved within months on its own and a clean install is now no hassle at all.
In short, I'm now older and don't have time to tinker with my PCs. That includes reverting whatever bullshit Microsoft decided to foist upon me, so now I run base debian and won't be buying bleeding edge hardware anymore.
For those that want to remove items, You can quickly disable these options by going into Settings > Personalization > Start and turn off "Show recommendations for tips, shortcuts, new apps, and more".
It's like a 10 second fix and basically everything is gone.
That's not what I'm referring to... it was a beta test that included actual internet ads in the start menu search results... It was literally a product I was looking at on the previous day.
Microsoft implemented, in its Beta Windows Insider Channel in 2024, ads in the "Recommended" section of the Start Menu. The very section I just described pretty plainly how to turn off.
I mean I don't understand why everyone is so puffed up about this. You read some internet headline and start screeching about it on social media as if it doesn't take 2 seconds to literally turn off.
AGAIN this is NOT what I was referring to... I'm referring to when you start typing in the name of a program you have installed, and you get a short list of matches, with maybe additional results... not a PRODUCT ADVERTISEMENT (not software) from the internet at the top, which is what I got.
It's not a feature that should EVER exist at an OS level... I didn't even mind the adjacent product ads or the Recommended section you mention that much... but it's emphatically not what I'm fucking talking about.
The fact that this was even something that was implemented and tested means that I'm not someone who will buy or choose Microsoft Windows at all from here forward. I have over 3 decades of development experience on/for/with software that runs on Windows.
An even then... It doesn't matter if I can shut it off, it shouldn't have existed in the first place.
I think it's critically important that when arguing on the internet you bring data driven information and not emotions. Although I know for many people, particularly in tech, operating system choice is an extremely subjective, emotional-driven, and personal, almost religious decision-making process.
But I like data. And that's what I'm going to stick with. Your experience is not my experience.
That said, I distinctly remember back in the Windows 98 days (inarguably one of the most highly regarded versions of Windows ever released which had extreme staying power throughout the Windows XP era); they used to automatically include the Channel Bar to the right on the "Active Desktop". This bar included links to Disney, AOL, MSN, MSNBC, among other items. No doubt Disney paid good money to be default installed and opened on every Windows PC of the time.
So it's not like including some level of advertising hasn't been a precedent for 30 or so years.
As a reply to this, because it's important. Searching does indeed bring up ads, however, they're to the right and only if you do not have whatever it is you're searching for installed.
I know this is splitting hairs, but I like data and not emotional driven decisions. When I tap "Start" and search for "World of Warcraft", which is installed on my PC, the very first item is the shortcut to WoW on my PC.
In terms of Start Menu Zones (as I'm calling them), on the Left is the "best Match", which links to WoW on my PC. The next zone beneath that is "Apps", which are the multiple permutations of WoW on my PC, and beneath that is "Search the Web", which offers a few search terms related to WoW. Beneath that is a "Store" link to WoW, which links to the Microsoft Store. The right zone of the Start Menu offers a menu of what I want to do with the app: Open, Run as Administrator, Open File Location, Pin to Start, Pin to Taskbar, or Uninstall.
This is the same behavior on all programs I have installed on the PC: I can type "Steam", same behavior. Discord, same behavior, Signal, same behavior, Battle.Net, same behavior, etc.
Now, for items that are not installed on my PC, for example, Half Life. Since I don't have it on my PC, it immediately wants to only search the web. On the right zone, which on installed apps shows a menu of options, this now shows a mini Bing search window which basically has sponsored content at the top with ebay links to Half Life editions (also holy crap those are expensive).
So for applications not installed on my PC? Yeah, it's showing me some search bing ads. For every application installed on my PC? It's not showing any ads.
From what I'm reading, it seems many people have a workflow that leverages the start menu pretty heavily. My workflow since the early days of XP has never included the start menu. In Windows XP, I used the Quick Launch Bar and always had a 2nd row of icons above my taskbar for which I used to open apps. When Microsoft changed this, I simply pin everything to the taskbar instead and use that. The only time I use the start menu to search and load something is usually if I want to CTRL+SHIFT+ENTER to run whatever that is as Administrator. And that workflow has never once "tricked" me into loading any ads, websites, bing searches, or anything. It has always, for over a decade including on Windows 11 25H2 done exactly what I was expecting every single time.
So perhaps our workflows differ for which this is an annoyance for you, but I cannot replicate your specific problem that you mentioned.
It might be different if they didn't push updates every other month that changed settings like default browser back to their products.
You're right that there are simple fixes but the point is that Microsoft is no longer on your side. You're now stuck defensivly scrambling for value in a product where you are no longer the customer.
The Ass-Fucker 3000 fucks you in the arse when you use your car ignition.
But don't get bent out of shape - you can disable it in settings. Takes 10 seconds. Assuming you know it exists and the option doesn't disappear in a future update.
And if it re-enables itself after the next patch? Well, at least the option to disable it still exists! Probably.
Why would you buy a different car? It's so easy to turn off. What, you want to use a BMW? Be a BMW-user? A sheep? All your tools already integrate with our car anyway. There's no real choice, is there - unless you want to be a try-hard. And maybe it doesn't even work properly. You don't want that hassle, do you? Just accept the Ass-Fucker 3000. Next week they'll add the Wife-Beater 2000, but don't worry -that'll have a toggle too.
Cope harder. I wish I had apologists like you for my software.
I mean you can also copy my dotfiles onto your linux machine and have a more advanced system than anything windows would provide, and it'll take less than ten seconds, but this is 'fiddling' or somethin.
It's really hard to maintain a product team where the mandate is just "don't break anything and keep the quality high". Especially something with as big of an installed base as Windows.
The team will look for excuses to build new and exciting stuff and new opportunities to increase revenue. Even if the product is pretty much "done".
I disagree, I think companies mostly just don't want to spend development money on existing "finished" products. That's the smell I'm getting from microsoft.
There are plenty of easily identifiable issues with performance in windows 11. There should be people in the windows team dedicated to eliminating "jank". MS product owners, on the other hand, are much more interested in getting copilot integrations into every menu. That's an "easy" task which looks good on a scorecard when you complete it.
No, it really shouldn't be... You can reduce headcount a lot, which they did, and concentrate on bugs (including security reports), while working with hardware vendors for if/when new features need to be integrated for better usability.
If/when you decide to do a redesign, it should be limited to a specific area, or done in such a way that all functionality gets moved to its' new UI/UX in a specified timeframe and released when done. Not, oh, here's a new right click menu that you now have an extra click 1/3 of the time for the old menu that has what you are actually looking for because the old extension interface was broken.
Want a real exercise in fun ... just for fun, because I know it's not as useful on a laptop, but was fun on desktops... get a screensaver working in windows that runs for an hour or so before going to sleep... just try it... that's a fun exercise in frustration... oh, it's still in there, but every third update will disable it all again. I get it... but you know what, I want my matrix screensaver to run when I'm only away for a few minutes or over lunch.
Every month more and more people switch to Linux and I just love it. I'm tired of one company controlling the core operating system of 85% of desktop computers and users being at their whim.
You want proprietary programs? Alright, fine, one can argue for that. But the central, core operating system of general purpose computers should be free and fully controllable by the users that own them!
It's a form of Stockholm Syndrome for most people. They'll have some bit of software they imagine is irreplaceable because they have some special use case that means that they just have to tolerate the relentless abuse. Or some other excuse. Whatever. It all boils down to people being afraid of change.
Most of that fear is not all that rational. It's not unlike kidnap victims falling in love with their captors. Your mind just tries to make the most of what fundamentally is a really messed up situation. You'll tell yourself it isn't that bad or that the next update will fix it or that you can get some magic software thingy that makes it go faster. Whatever.
Once you realize you are being abused, you can make some choices and do something about it. Most tools can be replaced if you look around a bit and do a bit of research. And virtual machines on Linux can run Windows just fine if you have one or two things that just really need it (been there done that). There's also wine and proton which aren't half bad these days. And they work for lots of things other than games. You can dual boot. Etc. Try it and find out. The absolute worst case is that you have to go back to being a lame abuse victim here. You'll feel extra bad because now you know. The best case gets you out of that abusive relation ship for the rest of your life. Life is too short to get subjected to this kind of abuse.
I've spent months testing and trying out RAW photo editors, and months trying out Linux gaming.
Linux is incredible, but my experience with Windows is still better. As many that still use it can attest, you can disable almost any annoyance. It's extremely stable. Things just work including brightness controls, fractional scaling, high refresh rates and high FPS gaming, and my favorite RAW photo editing. I could switch to a less enjoyable experience with Linux but I choose not to after extensive evaluation. I don't spend any money on Microsoft services, no Office or OneDrive subscription.
But my decision isn't permanent. My hobbies, software use, gaming selection, etc. can change over time, and Linux is getting better while Windows is getting worse. If it's ever "abuse" and I can have a better experience with Linux, I won't hesitate to change. But it's also a lot of effort to try out alternatives, and dual booting is slow and annoying. Plus when I dual boot to Linux Mint the kernel fails to boot every other time and I have to select an older one, reboot, select a newer one, reboot. It's a huge waste of time. A bad experience and I have chosen to avoid it and try again in another year or two.
I don't think it's Stockholm Syndrome, rather it's a classic case of sunken cost fallacy.
For me at least, that's what it was. I had invested so much time in Ableton (~14 years) and didn't feel like starting from scratch with another DAW. And let's be real, no one likes that kind of friction.
It had to get worse to finally break the inertia and also make me realize that it's only going downhill.
I'll note that sunken cost is not always a fallacy, or perhaps I should phrase that as "things that look like the sunken cost fallacy aren't always that fallacy". In your specific case, for example, you didn't feel like starting from scratch, because that would involve paying a cost (in terms of time learning a new system) that you didn't want to pay. So it's not actually "I sunk so much time into this, I want to get my money's worth" as it is "cost of learning something new: high. Cost of sticking with what I know: zero." So not exactly the same as the sunk-cost fallacy.
> Every month more and more people switch to Linux
We've been hearing this for decades and yet the home Linux userbase is microscopic and somehow even smaller than ever. Unless we're going to count Google's Android and Chrome OS. Those are the only Linux-based distributions that have ever gained market share over desktop Windows.
Somehow I think the stars might be aligning this time though. People are genuinely fed up with Windows and governments around the world are loudly thinking about how to reduce dependence on US tech. And then there is Proton which makes it much easier for Gamers to jump ship. To me it feels like there is more momentum than ever for this.
On the other hand I am also a realist and I don't think that Linux will take over the Desktop, but it will certainly have its biggest growth year ever in 2026.
> On the other hand I am also a realist and I don't think that Linux will take over the Desktop, but it will certainly have its biggest growth year ever in 2026.
I _love_ Linux, but I agree with this as well. I don't think Linux will ever be easy enough that I could recommend it to an elderly neighbor. I hope to be proven wrong, though.
What frustrates me about this particular moment is that at the same time Windows is getting worse, I feel that OS X is _also_ getting worse. This _is_ an opportunity for Apple to put a big dent in Windows market share.
> I don't think Linux will ever be easy enough that I could recommend it to an elderly neighbor.
The only reason I wouldn't do this is because that elderly neighbour wouldn't be able to install Linux and might not have any obvious place to get support from. Where can Grandma go to get support for her Linux laptop, even if she's willing to pay?
However, in a world where they can buy a laptop with Linux preinstalled and receive support from the same shop they bought it from if they do run into problems, then absolutely I would (not that that support is going to be great, but then they're at least no worse off than they were when they need support with Windows or a Mac, and I imagine they'll run into less problems on Linux than on Windows, given their use cases are likely to be very narrow and simple, i.e. web browser, e-mail, maybe simple office stuff).
> What frustrates me about this particular moment is that at the same time Windows is getting worse, I feel that OS X is _also_ getting worse. This _is_ an opportunity for Apple to put a big dent in Windows market share.
Aye, I agree. MacOS has been getting a bigger slice of the pie, but it's hard to ascribe what's the main cause, and to what extent each cause is contributing. We got the M chips being ungodly good (even the M1 is still serviceable, and damn right affordable even at this point), Windows growing worse, but the laptop market is also contracting, with a steady stream of people leaking out, saying 'screw this, I'll just use my phone or tablet. I don't need a PC for anything anymore.'.
All the casuals I know use a Mac for a laptop because they want something simple and functional, and Macs do that job, but they keep doing that job worse and worse. Everybody else casual might have a Windows laptop, but barely ever use it. The rest are gamers and power users, and thus need a proper machine and can't stick to a phone and tablet.
Apple could attract from the groups who would otherwise be done with non-phone/tablet computing, but their offering is growing weaker and weaker.
> Somehow I think the stars might be aligning this time though
> governments around the world are loudly thinking about how to reduce dependence on US tech
I am definitely sympathetic, after all, I worked for a major Linux company for quite a few years, started using Linux RH) in 1994, and even wrote some network related kernel modules.
However, this switch to Linux is not going to happen (apart from where it is already used heavily, from servers to many non-PC systems).
I have been in projects for large companies but also government on and off. Now, I manage the IT of a small (<50 employees) non-IT business with people in several countries.
People who actually comment in these discussions seem to be entirely focused on the OS itself. But that is what matters the least in business. Office is another, and even there most people who don't deal with it at scale are way too focused on some use case where individuals write documents and do some spreadsheeting. It's almost always about a very small setup, or even just a single PC.
However, the Microsoft stack is sooooo much more. ID management. Device management. Uncountable number of little helpers in form of software and scripts that you cannot port to a Linux based stack without significant effort. Entire mail domains are managed by Office 265 - you own the domain and the DNS records, you get licenses for Office365 from MS, you point the DNS records to Microsoft, you are done.
Sure, MS tools and the various admin websites are a mess, duplicating many things, making others hard to find. But nobody in the world would be able to provide soooo much stuff while doing a better job. The truth is, they keep continuously innovating and I can see it, little things just conveniently showing up, like that I now have a Teams button to create an AI script of my conversations, or that if more than one person opens an Office document that is stored in OneDrive we can see each other inside the document, cursor positions, and who has it open.
Nobody in their right mind will switch their entir4e org to Linux unless they have some really good reasons, a lot of resources to spare, and a lot of experience. Most businesses, for whom IT is not the be-all-end-all but just a tool will not switch.
But something can be done.
The EU could, for example, start requiring other stacks for new special cases. They cannot tell the whole economy to switch, not even a fraction of it, but they could start with new government software. Maybe - depends on how it has to fit into the existing mostly Microsoft infrastructure.
They could also require more apps to be web-only. I once wrote some code for some government agency to manage business registrations, and it was web software.
The focus would have to be to start creating strong niches for local business to start making money using other stacks, and to take the long road, slowly replace US based stacks over the next two or three decades. At the same time, enact policies that let local business grow using alternative stacks, providing a safe cache-flow that does not have to compete with US based ones.
The EU also needs some better scaling. The nice thing about the MS stack is that I can use it everywhere, in almost all countries. The alternative cannot be that a business would have to use a different local company in each country.
I read a month ago that EU travel to the US is down - by only ~3%. Just like with any calls for boycott of this and that, the truth is that those commenting are a very tiny fraction. The vast majority of people and businesses are not commenting in these threads (or at all), and their focus is on their own business and domain problems first of all. Switching their IT stack will only done by force, if the US were to do something really drastic that crashes some targeted countries Microsoft- and Cloud-IT.
> However, the Microsoft stack is sooooo much more. ID management. Device management. Uncountable number of little helpers in form of software and scripts that you cannot port to a Linux based stack without significant effort. Entire mail domains are managed by Office 265 - you own the domain and the DNS records, you get licenses for Office365 from MS, you point the DNS records to Microsoft, you are done.
Is there any bit of this that is not web based or does not support Linux nowadays? Office 365 runs on a browser, and even Intune supports some enterprise oriented distributions, like RH, so device management shouldn't be a problem. But even if none of that was true, there is certainly competition in the IT management space. Defaulting to Microsoft just because of a Windows based fleet doesn't sound like a great idea.
> The truth is, they keep continuously innovating and I can see it, little things just conveniently showing up, like that I now have a Teams button to create an AI script of my conversations, or that if more than one person opens an Office document that is stored in OneDrive we can see each other inside the document, cursor positions, and who has it open.
This is stuff other vendors have been offering for ages now.
The browser versions of the Office apps aren't comparable to the native apps, and also don't support whatever native integrations (like VBA add-ins) companies use.
Trading dependency on a company in Redmond, WA, USA, for one in mountain view, CA, USA does nothing for moving away from USA in the dependency chain, but it proves that it's possible. And I know it's possible as there are several billion-dollar companies in Google Workspace I know of personally. And if it's possible for them, it means it's possible for the EU to get there. The only question is will they ever? Let's form a committee to schedule a meeting to look into that question.
"Possible" is everything that does not violate any laws of the universe, that is not a useful criterion!
Oh and thanks for ignoring everything I wrote I guess. Not that I expected anything different, it is always the same in these threads after all. Why bother with arguments, especially those of the person you respond to?
But you see, this "laziness" actually supports my point. Not even you want to do the hard thing and bother with what somebody else thinks when there is a much easier path. But you expect others to care about the things that you care about, without spending much effort even merely understanding their position.
Go and download the archives of Reddit, there are plenty of torrents out there. Filter to a sub like r/gaming. Relative frequency graph of Linux mentions. You'll see a magnitude increase over the last 12 months compared to years before. It's real.
Must admit, not sure if the data torrents are
uptodate now that Reddit anti-scrapes so hard to raise their premium on the exclusive contract to the highest bidder, OpenAI.
Calling 4-5% marketshare microscopic is not fair. I get it if it was still stuck at 1%, but it's growing, and the rate of growth has been increasing too.
Take this with a grain of salt, because numbers from Statcounter are not fully accurate. However, none of those numbers are small. 3.86% of the entire PC market is not something to scoff at.
There's also the people like me that couldn't historically run certain games well directly on Linux, so we have Windows virtual machines with GPU passthrough. Which would read as me being a Windows user in the Steam stats, but a Linux user in other stats.
The state of gaming has improved drastically since I started doing it that way, though, and I'm considering ditching the VM entirely. Multiplayer games seem to be getting the hint about anticheat exclusion on Linux. ARC Raiders, for example, is a competitive game and runs flawlessly directly on Linux.
Probably. But part of it might also be something else entirely. I'm not saying it is, but how's anybody to tell? Statcounter is just not a good way to research Linux market share. Unfortunately, what they lack in statistics, they seem to make up for in SEO... everybody's landing there.
Last time I looked on stat counter it showed 4 and something percent. That's where I pulled the number from. But it seems they updated it to 3.86 now. It's so over for the Linux community.
Statcounter isn't just "not fully accurate", it's a hot dump of analytics garbage, at least for this purpose. Take your time to reflect on these diagrams - what's happening there? What's the 55% "unknown", and what does that tell you about the quality of those stats? (I've commented on this problem before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46472324 )
Maybe more interesting is that if you switch to looking at just America Linux jumps to 5.25% (unknown 7.4%) (Similar numbers for all of NA), and for Europe it is 4.32% (9.75% unknown).
Again, not huge numbers but also not insignificant. But they are quickly growing and taking share from Microsoft. If we look back at (Dec) 2021 the numbers are 1.8% and 2.2% respectively. Those gains are meaningful.
You can see that while Windows 10 numbers are going down over the past few months, the Windows 11 numbers aren't making up for it. About 2/3 of that gap are going to Linux with the other third going to Mac. So Mac is getting more market at the expense of Windows as well. There are a significant number of disgruntled Windows users leaving over the past year.
Its not ... The problem is that people do not realize that devices like Steam Deck are also considered Linux desktop devices in those numbers. Chrome tends to also inflate those numbers. Yes, they are Linux desktops but not in the way people are comparing Windows to Linux.
The real number is closer to 2.5% somewhere. What is still growth but nowhere the "year of the Linux desktop".
You tend to see a rather vocal minority that makes you feel like there is some major switch but looking here in the comments, people that switched 8 years, 12 year, 20 years ago are people that are part of the old statistics. There are some new converts but not what you expect to see despite Linux now also being more gaming compatible.
It still has minor issues (beyond anti-cheat), that involve people fixing things, less then the past. But its still not the often click and play, works under every resolution, has no graphic issue etc etc. That is the part people often do not tell you, because a lot of people are more thinkers, so a issue pops up, they fix it and forget about it.
Ironically, MacOS just dominates as the real alternative to Windows in so many aspects. If Apple actually got their act together about gaming, it can trigger a actual strong contender to Windows.
>The problem is that people do not realize that devices like Steam Deck are also considered Linux desktop devices in those numbers.
Are people even browsing on Steam Decks? Because everybody in this thread seems to be referring to stats published by a rather obscure web tracking solutions company. "High-traffic sites using Statcounter include khabarban.com, codelist.cc, and download.it"
Steam Deck is a Linux desktop device. It is literally a thin laptop with a build-in screen and joystick running linux. Does my linux system stop being that when I turn on big picture mode in steam? You can run the steam deck as your daily driver hooked up to a keyboard and a monitor.
The Steam Deck is not a Desktop ... That is like saying that every Android smartphone is a desktop. Sure, you can use it as a desktop but 99.99% of the people are using it as a handheld console.
And nice downvotes... Typical in Linux Desktop topics.
I didn't downvote, but it might have to do with the fact that you appear to be just inventing numbers like 2.5%. If Steam Decks are only used for gaming, why would they make up for 1.38% of the Statcounter numbers?
A growth of 4% over 20 years is not an increasing rate. And yes, 4% marketshare is microscopic. macOS has a bigger share but you wouldn't say macOS is massive. Posts like this are cheerleading OS's because everything needs to be a zero sum competition.
As phones replace desktop computers for non-technical users, leaving a concentration of "skilled" users, my suspicion is that the pattern will resemble the quote "Slowly, then all at once."
Have a look at the Steam Hardware [and software] Survey [0] results. Linux has been trending upwards whist Windows has been trending down for a wee while. And the population this looks at is primarily interested in gaming, which means that this is despite a compatibility layer being needed for a large amount of the software used. I imagine in other communities (software, old people) it's trending much faster.
E.g. I recently installed Linux Mint for my grandma so she could use email and an up-to-date web browser on her old laptop that can't run (secure) Windows anymore. The UI differences are marginal for her, and she can do everything she needs to much better than she could before (which was not at all).
I mean, this is literally false? Desktop Linux userbase is growing, it's bigger than it has ever been even without including ChromeOS, and more OEMs are shipping devices with desktop linux than ever before (Valve's suite of devices, multiple laptop vendors including major ones like Lenovo, a few SteamDeck competitors)
More and more desktop apps are just becoming websites. More and more desktop apps are using Electron rather than some native app. Windows is slowly becoming a dumpster fire in terms of usability and issues. Most games these days Just Work on Linux without any tinkering.
While I hardly think that this year will be "the year of the Linux desktop" or whatever, but if these trends keep going, I really foresee Linux market share growing, slowly, each year, until it's not so microscopic anymore.
I mean - steam deck was a pretty significant inflection point quite recently. Making gaming viable on linux via a popular consumer product is a huge deal and starts to kill one of desktop linux's single biggest barriers to adoption.
According to the Steam Hardware Survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...) only ~3.6% Steam users use Linux and these statistics include the Steam Deck users. SteamOS accounts for ~26% of Linux users, which in turn brings down the count to ~2.6%. For comparision, MacOS is ~2.1% of the market share at the moment. Wake me up when Linux gets to 10%.
My story is simpler. Microsoft dropped the support for Windows 10 and gave me no upgrade path to Windows 11 because my CPU was 5 years too old apparently.
So I installed Fedora on that machine, I learned the process, I went through the hurdles. It wasn’t seamless. But, Fedora never said “I can’t”. When it was over, it was fine.
Only if Microsoft had just let me install Windows 11 and suffer whatever the perf problem my CPU would bring. Then I could consider a hardware upgrade then, maybe.
But, “you can’t install unless you upgrade your CPU” forced me to adopt Linux. More importantly, it gave me a story to tell.
There is a marketing lesson there somewhere, like Torvalds’ famous “you don’t break userspace”, something along the lines of “you don’t break the upgrade path”.
I'm in the exact same boat. I was a little unhappy with the ads etc in Windows, but perfectly willing to give Windows 11 a try. But Microsoft decreed that my admittedly a bit old but perfectly workable CPU was incompatible, due to not having a feature I wasn't interested in. I'd need to replace most of my existing hardware to switch. So why not try Linux? It certainly seems reasonable when Windows apparently needs more command-line hackery to maybe work for a while than Linux.
So to Fedora I went! So far, I've been pleasantly surprised. All of the software I want to use installed easily and works, via Flatpak. All of my hardware works fine, and there are actually fewer weird hardware quirks than under Windows. I also appreciate that there are options to turn off behaviors I found annoying in Windows.
It's a bit sad to have to switch due to Microsoft trashing their own OS rather than Linux becoming superlatively awesome, but what can you do.
And I say it as a Linux user. My story is breathing life into old hardware back in the 2010s without having to spend any money, and just enjoying the No Man's Sky style freedom of exploring a whole new world of how a desktop operating system could look in feel and work, unmoored from the background sickness of thinking everything I do is channeled into Microsoft telemetry.
If you're the type of person who's capable of falling in love with software and software ecosystems, there's nothing like a first jump into Linux and understanding it as a world ready and waiting for you.
FreeBSD user here too <3 Mainly because I think Linux is way too aligned (and developed by) big tech these days.
We have Netflix and Sun influence but the former is not really putting its stamp on it and the latter no longer exists (and evil Oracle has zero interest of course)
I prefer the OS aligned with users like me not the big cloud boys.
What about declarative listing of installed packages? One of the neat things about NixOS is that I know exactly what packages I've manually installed since they're specified in my config file.
The other big difference I notice between NixOS and e.g. Debian is that on NixOS I only have to specify the changes from the defaults. On e.g. Debian I usually have to change config files that already exist. Then when the package updates its default config I end up having to review all the changes to the config, even when they have nothing to do with what I've explicitly configured.
I'm in a similar but more ridiculous reason. My reasonably modern hardware should support windows 11, but I get "disk not supported" because apparently I once picked the "wrong" bootloader?
I can't be arsed, if I'm going to have to fiddle around getting that working I might as well move to linux.
Iike that you both started with Fedora. Same for me but almost 20 yrs ago
Haven't touched it in a long time ever since debian8 was the point in time where it was fine to run on desktop and laptop for me, not only on server. Ever since then I have it on all my 20something machines
Prior to a lot of apps transitioning to be web apps, this would be more important, but there’s less value now that almost everything is non-native. Even MS Office is online now
You can bypass the warning really easily, I googled it the moment I saw it and it was very easy. A keyboard shortcut to open the command window during the install and one cheeky command. I agree though that it’s silly they don’t offer it officially.
But I get the feeling you were on the edge of transitioning anyway, which is fine! Sounds more like the straw that broke the camels back.
If you bypass the installer minimum hardware checks then you're making a gamble that the official statement from Microsoft won't affect you:
> If Windows 11 is installed on ineligible hardware, your device won't receive support from Microsoft, and you should be comfortable assuming the risk of running into compatibility issues.
> Devices that don't meet these system requirements might malfunction due to compatibility or other issues. Additionally, these devices aren't guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates.
Aren't you guys actually talking about a TPM 2.0 device being present on the machine and not a CPU specifically? Cause the whole Windows 11 thing was (I thought) full disk encryption with TPM 2.0 attestation booted from a secure boot BIOS. That basically just means you can't take the disk and boot it on another machine. There would be no way to decrypt.
> ... the best rationale for the processor requirement is that these chips (mostly) support something called “mode-based execution control,” or MBEC. MBEC provides hardware acceleration for an optional memory integrity feature in Windows (also known as hypervisor-protected code integrity, or HVCI) that can be enabled on any Windows 10 or Windows 11 PC but can come with hefty performance penalties for older processors without MBEC support.
> Another theory: older processors are more likely to be running in old systems that haven’t had their firmware updated to mitigate major hardware-level vulnerabilities that have been discovered in the last few years, like Spectre and Meltdown
Yea I was looking at this for work. We require full disk encryption for all operating systems but linux is the one where it's a passphrase or a yubikey. In my personal life it would just make managing my PC more annoying. Imagine a motherboard failure and boom there goes my entire disk.
You can have automatic unlock with tpm2, with or without a pin, in addition to passphrase, file, fido2, pkcs#11 cert, or whatever else is supported by luks.
I've been using this for a few years now, and never had an issue.
> Imagine a motherboard failure and boom there goes my entire disk.
You can also set a long-ass key in addition to the other methods, and back it up somewhere safe. It works the same as bitlocker: you have key which can decrypt the drive without external help from a TPM in case something goes wrong.
Yubikeys are very useful. I was pointed to them by a colleague and was a bit skeptical in the beginning but since then I am more than happy to use them, absolutely flawless execution. The only thing that I am a bit concerned about is that it isn't the key that I place on the device that governs all this so you can't be 100% sure that there isn't some kind of supply chain trick that would allow the manufacturer or one or more of their employees to create duplicate keys.
Hold up, I'm no expert on Secure Boot, but LUKS allows you to have multiple entry keys to the same drive.
This means you can have one key of random gobbledegook which is kept and auto-used by the magic motherboard, and also a passphrase that you can memorize or write down, and either one is totally sufficient on its own.
You don't even need to set them up at the same time, you can start with one and then add the other as an option later.
Secureboot is something else. It verifies the boot loader at the BIOS. This can be broken by the system itself (like if it's hacked). So it's protecting you against modifications to the boot loader. This is where kernel modules can be injected.
TPM 2.0 is something else. It's typically soldered onto the motherboard as a physical device and the key can be generated and then used to encrypt the disk. The private key can not be extracted. Only the signature and you can ask the TPM to sign a binary blob with the private key while providing you the public key to verify. This protects you against physical access to your device. No one can take your disk and decrypt it.
> the key can be generated and then used to encrypt the disk
Right, you can't recover or copy that specific key, but you also don't have to for accessing your data, if you set up some redundancy before disaster struck.
AFAIK: 99% of your storage is encrypted by a giant fixed unchanging master-key, and that is itself encrypted again with a non-master key/LS or passphrase, which is stored in the remaining "LUKS header". There's room to store multiple copies of the same master-key encrypted with different non-master options.
In that model, the TPM is simply providing (in a convoluted way) its own passphrase for one of those co-equal slots, so having one or more alternates prepared is sufficient to protect your drive from motherboard failure.
I have a few machines which lack a supported CPU. There's CPU's only 6 years old which aren't supported. There may be some newer ones even (I didn't bother to look).
If it was 2000 - it'd be like, "OK boss, you gotta upgrade that old dog of a CPU", but software bloat really hasn't kept up with CPU performance. I've got an i3 which is serviceable enough from 2014. Is it going to be able to keep up with modern SQL Server and Teams and VSCode and all that? Probably not all at once. But totally fine for basic computing.
For some reason that risk never seemed larger than the one that Microsoft would force me into subscribing to more services because they hold my data hostage or that they would be more than happy to pass the keys to my machine to the USG.
Windows 11 24H2 added a dependency on the POPCNT instruction, causing CPUs that don't have it - which were otherwise fine, to fail to even boot Windows.
What will be the next instruction/ISA extension that is only supported since Intel 11th Gen that there will be a hard dependency on? Any bets?
You are correct that a Linux installation is ineligible for support from Microsoft. Not that that means anything for private usage.
Also, Linux has a great track record for not dropping support for older hardware. I think that is a lot more informative than whatever statement Microsoft's legal team has managed to come up with.
There's a ton of outdated guides out there because Microsoft has been patching out workaround after workaround. It's likely that the simple solution you used doesn't work anymore.
There's a little bit of considering it already yeah. Plus what the sibling comments say of it being clearly against what Microsoft wants, so no guarantee they won't disable it or make it even harder in the future. And also, the factor of, doing any of these check-disabling hacks also seems to require a full OS reinstall instead of an in-place update. If I need to do a full reinstall anyways, why not do it with an OS I don't need to hack up to get it to install on a system the OS maintainer doesn't want it to be installed on.
Apparently, fundamentally, Microsoft does not want me as a user. Hacking around their checks won't change that. I'd rather comply with their wishes and use an OS that actually wants me as a user.
I have two laptops that - even being 8 years and 4 years old fit the specs MS decided to set.
I still kicked itin the can. Am a happy Arch User & Ubuntu (will probably migrate that one to an Arch derivate as well, though) nowadays. I still use WIN11 in my day job. And it is an okay OS. I had worse. I had better.
What I find interesting is, that I gained on average 30 - 50% more battery time from the laptops I switched to Linux. It is quite unexpected and to me quite frankly amazing. I am writing this on my day job quite expensive Surface machine. I pulled it from the power connection to sit on the sofa about 20 minutes ago. My battery? At 73%. And I am running Firefox and PowerPoint at the moment (plus whatever corp crapware is installed underneath).
Except for exactly one set of tools (older Affinity progs) I have no need for WIN anymore. And as my day job provides a WIN machine...
My daily driver is a second hand W540 that was made in 2014 or so. It's got the maximum RAM that it will take (32G), and a larger HD, other than that it's just the same old box. It's indestructible and rock solid, drives three monitors and I couldn't be happier with it.
I can't speak to gaming but i was warned about printer issues as well. However after a hasty switch from win10 to xubuntu to save my phd work i was able to get the office printer working on ubuntu that i could never print to on windows. Sure, i installed a driver but the dialogue literally directed me to do so. My jaw hit the floor when the test page came out flawless.
Yah, I feel like Linux was way worse with printers in the past.. now the story is more like: you'll have a different set of printer issues across the major OSes but no OS is clearly better or worse.
When was the last time you tried any of that on linux? Printers have been plug and play(which is impressive considering the hoops I had to jump through on windows) and with advent of proton, there's been no game I've played that's had any issues
An anecdote about printers: I was just trying out Linux Mint from a live USB when out of nowhere appeared a popup that a Brother printer was ready for use. Turned out my significant other had switched on the WiFi printer in the other room. I really had to laugh out loud about how unexpectedly easy that was.
Steam now supports 1 click install of its entire library windows and Linux native and the majority work. The majority of printers either work or do not. It's not a reasonable expectation that all hardware will work but you won't need hours of work either.
MS is free to deprecate your work around any given Tuesday when you have work to do leaving you in the same spot with less time available to do anything about it.
You are wrongly assessing the value of the alternatives to boot if you think they were just too stupid to google. Based on the article they already viewed Windows negatively prior to this and thus already had a motivation to switch.
Apple does this all the time, though, and seems to get a free pass here. I have four Macs in my home, and they are cut off at Ventura (for the 2017 iMac), Monterey (for the 2014 Mac Mini and the 2015 MacBook Air), and El Capitan (for the 2014 iMac). They are all stuck at 3, 4, and 5 major OS versions back. Nobody really seems to complain about this, though.
I don't think it's the same. On older Apple hardware, it just keeps on running on the older OS version. You don't get some new features or styling of the new OS, but nothing else changes. On Windows, it periodically brings up full-screen notifications that your hardware is obsolete and you need to upgrade, with the only options being to upgrade or "remind me again later".
Note: Because of dependency on architecture and system changes to any current version of Apple operating systems (for example, macOS 26, iOS 26 and so on), not all known security issues are addressed in previous versions (for example, macOS 15, iOS 18 and so on).
macOS receives 1 year of full support and 2 additional years for security updates for each version with 6-8 years of upgrade eligibility. Windows 10 received 10 years of support (on top of a free upgrade from Windows 7/8.1 for most users).
I'm not sure why you're counting the years of support for a version of the OS and not the years of support for a computer. The interesting thing is: if you bought a computer at year X, does it still receive updates at X+Y?
There's loads of relatively young computers which can't upgrade to Windows 11 and therefore aren't supported anymore. That's the problem, not how long Windows 10 was supported.
That's great, but it's no silver bullet. We have a 4th Gen iPad that was used mostly for consumption. Only one of the streaming apps works with its ios version.
There are a lot of Android devices that look temping until one discovers how out-of-date the firmware is.
With no option to install your own, of course. Boot loaders should be exclusively for running the manufacturer's lone security update from 5 years ago.
I just installed Opencore and run the newer OSs anyway. It will eventually not be an option when they come up with an ARM-only OS, but at the moment it seems to work ok.
Software in much more tied to the OS though. For example, Chrome is still compatible with Windows 10 which is more than 10 years old, while on macOS you cannot install it past Monterey (2021). Not to mention that also system applications are updated with the OS, so forget about using Safari
They don't get a free pass, I think people have spoken with their wallets and it shows with the user base counts: Windows 66–73%, macOS 14–16%, Linux 3–4%.
Apple seems to support their previous generation OS on older macs for ~8-9 years or so from what I've seen. You just don't get the latest generation features, they cut it off and move on similar to how Microsoft did.
I think Apple gets a pass because they're a luxury product. For the record, even though Apple has some really impressive hardware, this is one of the reasons I'm not very big on Apple. People praise their phone's longevity all the time, but I think this is crazy. I could be running a 13 year old computer right now and it would work fine if I had Linux. Smartphones don't really have options for this due to the market capture. Apple's PC could be supported longer, but Apple isn't interested in doing it. (and apparently they change architectures every 15 years anyhow.)
> I think Apple gets a pass because they're a luxury product.
No they aren't. They've just convinced everyone that they are.
I've seen people meme about Android being for people who couldn't afford an iPhone when the fact is that a flagship Android costs just as much as an iPhone.
I tried a "flagship Android" phone once (the top of the line Samsung), it was bugging the second I opened the pack. I returned it and got a cheap Pixel budget line phone.
Then a few years later I jumped ship to iPhone, and largely am very happy now. Nothing is perfect, but for me, iPhone is the best I've tried.
That's the contemporary luxury market for nearly all goods; signifiers that tell folks "this item is more valuable because it has the magic sigil" or whatever.
That is the reality of pretty much every "luxury product/brand"...
It is convincing people to pay a premium for what is still at the end of the day a stitched leather bag, watch, computer or smartphone made in factories like everything else.
People pay for names, to project their luxury lifestyle.
It is very rare that the actual quality/performance of a "luxury item" is dramatically above a high-quality equivalent. Does a Rolex tell time and look better than a Breitling? Or a Tag Heur? Or a Seiko? Each of those represents a different price/style point - and ultimately it is subjective to a consumer - who wants to project a certain style/look.
I ran iPhone 6 and 8 well beyond their years. I only replaced because the batteries were already replaced once. But otherwise the phone was fine. I have had same issues with laptops
They didn’t get a pass from me. My MacPro has been running Linux longer than it ran MacOS. Apple stopped supporting it officially at Mojave but I jumped ship earlier when I was forced to do a clean install rather than an upgrade because I had a RAID.
idk what other people give passes to, but I had been a Linux desktop user since the mid 90s and Mac laptop user since ~G3 iBook years and I finally gave up on their laptops a few years ago; so it's mainly linux-linux now
i think the last straw was the added telemetry that required so much effort to get rid of, but also for years they have made clear moves to make their laptops iOS-like progressively, which I cannot stand on so many levels
Apple will provide software and hardware support for any given product for at least 5 years. After those 5 years, you sometimes will still get security fixes.
The reason for this is that newer software will start using hardware features and capabilities that only exist on newer hardware, not because Tim Cook is evilly cackling in his office "hahhahha! Let's force people to buy new Macs!!!"
If only there was a way to write software that uses the new hardware features if they're available but falls back to a legacy path, if the hardware features were not available.
Which Microsoft really should have been able to see coming, since it’s largely their money that’s being used to soak up all the supply of computing hardware.
Someone inside Microsoft probably did see it coming. That comic of their org chart being individual bubbles, all pointing guns at each other really does explain that company's behavior.
Microsoft doesn't seem to be one unified entity, but a bunch of smaller competing companies under the same umbrella, each trying to destroy the other.
Allegedly Sony saw the writing on the wall and secured a good amount of GDDR supply for their consoles. Microsoft did not, and has had to raise the price of the Xbox Series X as a result.
I don't think that Microsoft knows what Microsoft is doing.
Yep. Similar thing forced me off of Apple. They stopped making 17 inch laptops. They started soldering parts into place. Made it so you couldn’t open your own laptop to replace the HD.
Switched to Linux 8 years ago and haven't looked back.
I have a similar issue with Windows. The machine already dual-boots Linux, but it is simultaneously demanding Windows 11 and telling me that it doesn't support it. It's a three year old Ryzen, it plays every game I've thrown at it flawlessly - which admittedly is only just so many things, but if it could manage Oblivion Remastered at launch it should manage a bloody operating system surely.
I hear it might be some TPM thing. If so, it still seems like a bad decision to require this thing, and it's telling that I'm working on speculation here - it doesn't _tell_ me that's what it is.
I can solve this problem if I have to. Right now, I don't.
But I think you miss my core point. If "Ask an LLM" is the answer to this, Microsoft are doing an unforgivably shit job of maintaining Windows. Why on earth should that be necessary? Surely they can provide the minimum of information about why they think the upgrade isn't possible.
This is exactly my experience - I have a Lenovo W530 from 2013, it has an i7, 32gb RAM and SSDs (RAID0 for performance, backups are off-device) - and it is STILL lightning fast.
However - EVERY single trick I have tried... the above command, LTSC, Enterprise edition, etc, results in a situation where after installation a few days (or hours) and some updates get installed, and... blue-screen-of-death on every boot.
Gave up, installed Linux - still working through some issues (GPU driver compatibility), but overall it is a much better experience...
I think at a certain point you need to just call it quits with that sort of bullshit. I have my dignity. I'm a fucking grown adult. I'm not going to spend my spare time haplessly looking online to unfuck the new current set of fuckery. Just take the fucking bullet. Learn linux. Congrats you're playing whack-a-mole with a trillion dollar corporation and prolonging your misery. This is stupid.
Yeah, microsoft will never change otherwise. People and companies continue to willingly allow themselves to get abused, and then wonder why Microsoft never changes and continues to abuse them.
So long as said abuse never results in a loss of marketshare and revenue, it will continue. Why would they stop if there's no negative repercussions?
Win8.1 x64 required double-width compare and exchange instruction support, so people who bought Win8 for a CPU or motherboard that didn't support it had to downgrade to the 32-bit version or lose support in 2016.
Win7 updates from 2018 onwards required SSE2 with no warning.
Win11 24H2 and later won't install on x86 processors that don't support the x86-64-v2 baseline.
From my experience it seems to happen all the time. Settings reset, uninstalled apps reinstalled, firewall settings erased. I went looking for the Windows 10 patch that deleted the Documents folder if you had remapped it to another drive, and it was hard to find an article due to all the other times their updates have also deleted people's Documents folder. This was the first time I recall it happening: https://www.engadget.com/2018-10-09-windows-10-october-updat...
That's, e.g., how I would determine what these commands do
I have had HN replies in the past that argued Windows is open source and thus comparable to UNIX-like OS projects where _the public_ can read the source code and make modifications, _for free_
Absent the source code, we can read Microsoft's documentation
The other thing to tell you is that this is not a live version of windows with all the features of the full desktop. It is the windows that runs the windows installer application, so enough windows to do that and no more.
Whenever I see an unexplained command I don't understand from a random internet forum, I hop onto the production server and run it, just in case it might boost performance. Wouldn't want to miss out on that.
Been doing it since I was 12. It taught me all about the ins and outs of `rm`.
Sounds like me back in the early 80s when I used to war dial, and people used to share "active" prefixes. I learned all about the 911 prefix when I set my dialer and went to sleep. About 20 minutes later the cops were banging on my front door. True story; I was in 6th grade, got arrested for it.
I got taken to juvenile hall, put in a holding area with kids that had stolen cars and stabbed other kids in fights. The funny thing is all these "bad kids" were really cool; we talked about video games (Donkey Kong!). I remember one kid got into a fight with his football coach and broke both the coach's legs. He was a big kid, looked like a grown man. He was pretty much in charge of the holding area. But he was cool as hell, cracked jokes with me. I actually kinda enjoyed the holding area.
Anyway, the officials thought I had just called 911 over and over, like to play a prank. They wouldn't hear anything about my computer or whatever (it was the early 80s). They were pissed. I was kept in the holding area for a few hours, then they let me go home. I was ordered to a bunch of community service, cleaning the parking lots of local parks, stuff like that.
Some of the checks are around CPU features that they don’t currently use but may use in the future. And CPUs don’t typically respond super gracefully to being asked to execute instructions they don’t understand.
I've been using Linux for 20+ years, but I was fairly happy with Windows 11. At its core it did exactly what I needed it to do, and it allowed me to run some commercial software that is harder to install and run on Linux (Davinci Resolve).
But my Dell hardware drivers were flaky in Windows. My bluetooth had extremely variable availability. And then Windows rebooted itself, against my wishes, 3x in one week. And then there was the promise of Recall.
That's when I wiped Windows and installed Ubuntu. All my hardware issues went away (yes, I had to fiddle the sound driver a little so it didn't crack when it woke up from sleep, and I had to make one small change so suspend worked properly.. but both were easily solvable). My bluetooth has been flawless since and I was able to use my Logitech wireless mouse again.
I'm never going back.
I do a bit of napkin math on Apple Silicon single-threaded performance, GPU performance, and battery management against non-Macbook Air/Pro specs for same price. I follow DHH (who I otherwise object to) on his adventures with the Asus G14 machines.. but I'm not sure its GPU performance still matches the similarly priced Apple offering.
Less integrated OS, worse battery management, and weaker performance for more money? I'm not sure. But I'll probably still go that way.
The Intel/AMD laptop manufacturers need to get out from under Nvidia's hardware GPU thumb.
BT can be a shitshow on any OS.
Some combinations work flawlessly, some don't. It's not even the OS' fault IMHO, but the device manufacturers'. My Bose headphones have the same problems under both Windows 10 and Linux.
How so? Bluetooth has been working out of the box (no tinkering) for me under Linux for the past ten years now across multiple devices. Including stuff like APT-X and LDAC. All with proper OS integration (I use Gnome). What's the story on Windows?
Same here. The story for windows, IME, is that my work Logitech BT keyboard works fine, but neither my sony nor shure headphones work at all. Windows says connected, but then disconnects right away. On the same PC which dual-boots linux, they both work fine, with LDAC for the sony and apt-x hd for the shure.
At work, we have BT Jabra headsets. I specifically asked for a corded version, I hate the latency for calls. My windows-using colleagues, for some reason, love wearing a wireless headset and talking through the laptop microphone.
My story is even simpler. I have a friend who wanted to upgrade to Windows 11 because 10 is losing support. I wrote the Windows 11 installer to my flash drive using Rufus. It worked perfectly. I'm not expecting a man who has no interest in learning Linux to change.
Why did you want to install windows 11 anyways? I also have a PC stuck on Windows 10 and it makes me happy that it's now stable and not part of the forced rolling releases in Win11. Im going to run it on Win10 as long as I can.
I am in the same boat. Running Windows 10 on a Ryzen 5 until the cows come home. I run Rocky Linux in my laptop but I am a gamer so I'll hold to Windows 10. Some Linux Distros are bringing AI. Not ready for that.
Granted, I only had to convert to Tumbleweed (not trivial, but easier than reinstalling), and the open source nature means there will always be lots of other alternatives, too.
I'm sure there's a million reasons not to, but they could even just open-source Windows 10. Leave you alone with the hardware that you rightfully purchased, and let the community police the security gaps that arise. It's beyond me how planned obsolescence especially on perfectly sufficient hardware is even legal.
You can bypass the warning really easily, I googled it the moment I saw it and it was very easy. A keyboard shortcut to open the command window during the install and one cheeky command.
A future update may restrict access to your windows or break its ability to get further updates. It’s a matter of time. They just haven’t gotten around to it.
And if you’re thinking you’ll just Google another solution then you might as well spend that time googling efforts for Linux. Windows shouldn’t require constant hacking or tinkering to function.
There is no chance they break it. That’s just scaremongering. This also isn’t “constant hacking” it’s bypassing one warning during setup and that’s it.
"For AI to have societal permission it must have real world eval impact. The choices we make about where we apply our scarce energy, compute, and talent resources will matter."
Apparently resources are only "scarce" when Microsoft needs them. When it comes to your consumer outcomes you have to throw away working equipment and buy new.
I use remmina, which uses xfreerdp under the hood. It works well, but I haven't managed to get smartcard authentication working, if that matters for your environment.
We had that announcement of a new "Verifiable" Linux project from Pottering, other kernel devs, and a bunch of ex-microsoft employees yesterday. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
Remote Attestation of Immutable Operating Systems built on systemd
Its the "remote" thing that has no place in personal computing, or rather, computing that is to extend one's own autonomy, or agency.
Its no one's damn business whether my system is attested or not! I mean, sure theres certainly benefits for me knowing if its attested, but the other road is one of ruin, and will basically be the chains of the future.
If you're trying to remotely attest immutable OSs you are definitely not a home user, or if you are, you're definitely very keen at least and likely a raging self-masochist.
If you're NOT trying to remotely attest anything, you're fine. Just use your chosen OS, dawg.
Remote attestation is just generating a random blob on the remote side and then making the tpm 2.0 module on a computer sign the blob with a private key. You then provide the signature and the public key to the remote for verification. That enrolls that device. After that you can "verify" with a new binary blob and validate a new signature came back with the same key. That full loop is remote attestation. The idea is your disk didn't get moved to another computer. It's a security thing that Linux does need and is capable of being fully open source.
We're gonna be using this to validate someone didn't move your login to another device. Which will protect you from session hijacking. Your work stuff will start requiring it. Your media accounts will too. Or else linux will simply be locked out from major services. DRM is already in your browser. And literally has no connection to identity attestation.
Of course it is, there's no real requirement to have a TPM, plenty of people made a version with that requirement patched out and the system works fine.
> There is a marketing lesson there somewhere.
Microsoft once had the IT world at its feet, because not only was its Windows 9x OSes ubiquitous everywhere, but it had many millions of programmers who had become experts at Visual Basic and Visual C++, so almost all corporates used programs written in these easy to learn, not too difficult to master, fun to program in (yay for Intellisense and Drag-n-drop ActiveX controls), and versatile despite some limitations. This was also the era where many corporates had complicated databases set up in MS Access or MS SQL Server, because they were easily accessible and usable from front-end applications written in VC or VC++.
Microsoft even evolved it all to adapt to and compete with new ideas from rivals, such as COM+ as alternative to CORBA, ASP.Net as alternative to JSP, etc.
Then Microsoft did the unthinkable. It inexplicably threw away all these IT dependencies away, that it had spent decades to build across the worlr.
Microsoft unleashed .Net on an unsuspecting IT world.
And M$ arrogantly expected the world to also throw all their years of efforts of building applications and databases revolving around VB/VC++.
To save their careers, millions of VB/VC++ programmers tried hard to scramble and learn these new technologies, but Microsoft just kept updating and upgrading the .Net landscape with increasing frequency and leading to more chaos and confusions. And as the learning curve steeper and the .Net scope became too hard for sane people to master in a short time, it became apparent that to the entire IT world (except Microsoft) that it had become too difficult and cumbersome to build applications for corporations using Microsoft's new-age tools. Thus, the interest and ambitions of the programmers and corporations quickly waned towards Microsoft tools, especially when they realised that .Net was a mess for installations, and it called expensive licenses to build and ship.
So programmers and SOHO/medium-scale companies, pivoted to alternatives to Microsoft imposed nightmares. Python, PHP, MySQL, Linux, Perl, Ruby, JavaScript, JSP, etc. took centre stage, even as the IT world moved away from .Net.
The worldwide chaos caused by Windows Vista and Windows 8, did nothing to improve upon IT people's disdain for all things Microsoft.
And Microsoft's rivals pounced at such golden opportunities, and they slowly ate away at Microsoft's dominance in corporate world.
Yes, there is indeed some lessons for Micro$oft to be learnt from these debacles.
"Hubris calls for nemesis, and in one form or another it's going to get it, not as a punishment from outside but as the completion of a pattern already started."
~ Mary Midgley
"And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains.
Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
~ Percy Bysshe Shelley, Ozymandias
> You had unsaved work? Too bad, it's gone, get bent.
This has happened to me a couple of times. I put the PC to sleep and the next morning I discover it has decided to close everything to install an update.
Not using Windows ever again to do any work. Say what you will about Apple but at least they don't do crap like this.
While my instinctual reaction is the same, that's only because I've been hurt by losing work the same way presumable everybody else has. But that's all because Windows hasn't elected to solve this problem.
Macs (largely) don't have this problem, so it's clearly solvable. There isn't any inherent law of computing or the universe that says it should be this way.
I still press CMD+S on Macs every time I'm done typing in something, but that's only because I've been hurt and live with the trauma, so to speak. There's no reason to hurt others to learn a lesson that doesn't actually have any value.
The point is, the user shouldn't have to work around the OS. The OS should work around the user. If there are unsaved files, the OS should not be installing an update and removing unsaved work.
I installed Windows Update Blocker (AKA "WUB") and i've stopped the nonsense shutdowns late at night.
That helped stopping the aggravation, but lets see how long I last. I do feel my next computer will be a Linux OS ... but i'm not a programmer and I wince at having to do all the wine installs fresh...
Correct. Windows is not a serious operating system. It really never has been. I've been on desktop linux for decades now. Linux is a serious operating system. Nothing happens without you asking it too. My linux computers are never turned off, since they day I turn them on, except for the occasional kernel upgrade. Otherwise, all upgrades are live. Even most kernel upgrades can be avoided if you use one of the modern patch frameworks
I literally cannot count the number of times I put my Linux computer to sleep and it just doesn't wake up, and I have to hard reset the power to get it to do anything. I would never leave anything unsaved open for an extended period of time on a graphical Linux system.
Happens 90% of the time on my standard Elitebook laptop when I run windows. It just crashes and has the fan going crazy. On Linux it's been fine since day one, some 5 years ago.
But this is a bug, and it's very different from the OS voluntarily rebooting without your consent.
Actually no. Linux pretty closely follows the ACPI standard. The issue is that ACPI implementors specifically work around bugs in Windows, which does not follow the standard well and has its own quirks. Thus, in order to make Linux 'work' with the broken hardware, they'd have to add bugs. Again, we see the issue with Microsoft dominance. A serious OS would implement the standard as written, not demand that others follow its bugginess.
the flip side of this is I can't count the number of times that cropping a screenshot in paint and leaving it in the background has partially stopped my PC from rebooting, and I've discovered the following morning that "you have unsaved work" on paint interrupted the shutdown and i need to do the shutdown _again_.
Why though? On Mac, I have tons of unsaved work: many TextEdit windows which keep their state for many months, even through reboots. And it has been working like for at least 10 years. It's such a simple, little quality-of-life thing. And Microsoft just doesn't care.
This is what a computer should be doing: helping the user to get their work done, without the user having to worry about insignificant details about saving files. E.g. does Google Docs ever ask where to save a file before closing the browser or shutting down the computer? No you just get an untitled document that is automatically saved. If I want to rename it or save it in a different location, I am free to do so. But as long as I don't, it doesn't get in the way and just persists stuff automatically.
I don't disagree, but you have to know which applications reliably keep their state across restarts. You can't blindly rely on it on any desktop system. The Microsoft Office applications actually do auto-save documents since a couple of years ago, even though the recovery UX can be a bit awkward.
What Microsoft doesn't care about is that you may have applications running that don't do that, when Windows reboots for updates.
On macOS the feature is baked into the OS's APIs, the app developer just opts into using them. If they don't, quitting with unsaved work will prompt the user modally, and block the restart to the point where the OS will timeout the reboot process and give up. The only way to purposefully lose unsaved work in almsot every app I've ever used on macOS is to yank the power cable or hold the power button down.
Window locations and app state are written to plist files, again, using OS libraries and APIs for app resume. I can reboot my Mac and not even realize it happened sometimes it all comes back the way it was.
The blocking happens on Windows as well, except that the timeout logic is the reverse: it force-quits the applications then, because presumably the potential security update is more important.
Yep. On Mac (and Linux, actually) I know of some applications that do that. I also know that on Windows most applications don't do that. I would also never leave un-saved work open on Windows.
I was replying to: "The fact that you leave unsaved work overnight is the actual crazy part". As long as you know which apps auto-save and know you can somewhat rely on them, it's not so crazy.
Of course, everyone has their own workflow. I won't tell anyone to adjust their workflow. But the exact point I was trying to make is that it's not random apps. It's specific apps that one knows about and how they behave. And once you know those apps (like TextEdit, Google Docs, etc) you can pretty much rely on it to survive reboots and power outages.
There's plenty of tasks that can take hours that don't save their progress. E.g. running a simulation, training an AI model, rendering video. Or, these days, leaving agentic AI models running in a loop implementing tasks.
Even if the state is recoverable, it doesn't mean that it's simple to recover.
I would be infuriated if my OS decided to shut itself down without permission.
I use a mac and a linux box. I'd never cross my mind that I cant leave some unsaved changes overnight. I leave unsaved changes for weeks across the many things I am working on.
I've been running Ubuntu Linux for a long time now (over a decade, started with 8.04). Linux still has it's fair share of bugs but I'll take having to deal with those over running Windows or MacOS any day.
For me the biggest thing is control, with Windows there are some things like updates that you have zero control over. It's the same issue with MacOS, you have more control than Windows but you're still at the whims of Apple's design choices every year when they decide to release a new OS update.
Linux, for all it's issues, give you absolute control over your system and as a developer I've found this one feature outweighs pretty much all the issues and negatives about the OS. Updates don't run unless I tell them to run, OS doesn't upgrade unless I tell it to. Even when it comes to bugs at least you have the power to fix them instead of waiting on an update hoping it will resolve that issue. Granted in reality I wait for updates to fix various small issues but for bigger ones that impact my workflow I will go through the trouble of fixing it.
I don't see regular users adopting Linux anytime soon but I'm quickly seeing adoption pickup among the more technical community. Previously only a subset of technical folks actually ran Linux because Windows/MacOS just worked but I see more and more of them jumping ship with how awful Windows and MacOS have become.
I remember when Ubuntu decided to reroute apt installations into SNAP installs. So you install a package via apt and there was logic to see if they should disregard your command and install a SNAP instead. Do they still do that?
Yes. I know its more than firefox, but I don't have the full list. On 24.04:
me@comp:~$ apt info firefox | head -n 5
WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in scripts.
Package: firefox
Version: 1:1snap1-0ubuntu7
Priority: optional
Section: web
Origin: Ubuntu
me@comp:~$
The control is both a blessing and a curse. It’s really easy to accidentally screw things up when e.g. trying to polish some of the rough edges or otherwise make the system function as desired. It also may not be of any help if the issue you’re facing is too esoteric for anybody else to have posted about it online (or for LLMs to be of any assistance).
It would help a lot if there were a distro that was polished and complete enough that most people – even those of us who are more technical and are more demanding – rarely if ever have any need to dive under the hood. Then the control becomes purely an asset.
This is literally Linux Mint, Zorin, and several other distros. I haven't had to "go under the hood" on my daily driver machines that run either of these distros for over 7 years.
I think at this point people are just (reasonably) making excuses not to change.
Those and other big distros are better in that regard, but they're still not perfect. Depending on one's machine and needs, there can still be pain.
One recent example I experienced is jumping through hoops to get virtualization enabled in Fedora… it takes several steps that are not obvious at all. I understand not having it enabled by default since many won't need it, but there's no reason that can't just be a single CLI command that does it all.
Things like that can be unbelievably annoying and confusing on Windows or Macs, too. Even worse, they can just turn out to be impossible: the company can actively be preventing you from doing the thing that you want to do, refuses to give you enough access to your own system to do the thing you want to do, and/or sells permission to do what you want to do as an upgrade that you have to renew yearly.
These are things that don't happen in Linux. Doing what you want to do might be difficult (depending on how unusual it is), but there's no one actively trying to stop you from doing it for their own purposes (except systemd.)
Also, as an aside, a reason that Windows and Macs might have easy virtualization (I have no idea if they do) is because of how often they're running Linux VMs.
One needs to go a fair ways off the beaten path before they'll start running into trouble like that under macOS and Windows.
For macOS in particular, most trouble that more tinker-y users might encounter disappears if guardrails (immutable system image, etc) are disabled. Virtualization generally "just works" by way of the stock Virtualization.framework and Hypervisor.framework, which virtualization apps like QEMU can then use, but bespoke virtualization like that QEMU also ships with or that built into VirtualBox and VMWare works fine too. No toggles or terminal commands necessary. Linux does get virtualized a lot, but people frequently virtualize Windows and macOS as well.
What exactly did you need to do? All I've ever had to do to get QEMU working properly has been to make sure KVM is enabled in the BIOS (which you have to do on all OSs).
Just run a KVM based Windows VM (via GNOME Boxes, virt-manager, etc. On my Fedora install I had to install the @virtualization meta-package and enable dameons among other things, and the only reason I knew to do that is because I looked it up. Without that Boxes, etc just throws an unhelpful error that doesn’t suggest that more packages or config changes are needed.
I had to enable virtualization features in BIOS too, but that’s entirely separate and not the fault of any Linux distro.
Ah, I guess I might be a little unusual in that I use the QEMU CLI directly. I tried some QEMU GUIs in the past but they were annoying to get working so I just learned the CLI.
There's several distros that are fully usable without ever touching a terminal. The control is a gradient, some distros give you all the control and others (eg. SteamOS) lock down your root filesystem and sandbox everything from the internet.
> It’s really easy to accidentally screw things up when e.g. trying to polish some of the rough edges or otherwise make the system function as desired.
'Similar to Windows' System Restore and macOS's Time Machine', the Linux 'Timeshift' tool can be used to do make periodic saves of your OS files & settings. (They can be saved elsewhere.) Restoration is a cinch.
Mint program 'Backup Tool' allows users to save and restore files within their home directory (incl. config folder and separately installed apps).
You do have to know what you're doing. A complete OS has a bunch of components that work together. But an out of the box distro hides all that do you end up fiddling with incomplete knowledge.
Gentoo is great for learning what all the individual components are. You install it by booting a kernel from a USB stick then chrooting into your newly installed system to start installing and configuring everything. Just knowing the existence of individual components helps a lot. Plus Gentoo gives you more control than almost any other distro (much more than Arch, for example).
> I've been running Ubuntu Linux for a long time now...Linux still has it's fair share of bugs...
> I don't see regular users adopting Linux anytime soon...
I can see why you think the second statement is true based on the first statements. When Ubuntu switched their desktop to Gnome, they gave up on being the best Linux desktop distro. I'd recommend you to try Linux Mint.
I tried Fedora once. On a fresh install, all it did was clog up all the hard drive space with error logs within 3 days.
I'm not interested in any distro that is controlled by a corporation. IBM is a corporation and they already screwed up CentOS and is eventually going to screw up Fedora someday because that's what corporations do, and I'm not interesting in going through that.
You have your fun running Fedora for now but know you're going to get burned someday.
Well, to start they tried putting Amazon ads in Unity's Dock which was also doing data collection, but removed them after the backlash.
Then they switched to Gnome, meaning they gave up on their own desktop, Unity, so they were no longer dictating what their desktop was like, so how much did they care?
Since then they have replaced a number of apps with SNAPs which are only available from Canonical so many people see it as an attempt to corner the Linux market. Many see AppImages and Flatpacks as better than SNAPs.
They are a company. They exist to make money. Of course they are going to decide to do things that make more money and annoy their users.
You are confusing debian-family with Linux. Debian family is designed to be outdated upon release. When they say "Stable" it doesn't mean 'Stable like a table'. It means version fixed. You get outdated software that has bugs baked into it.
Fedora is modern and those bugs are fixed already.
Reminder Fedora is not Arch. Don't confuse the two.
Meh, I don't care much about control, I care more about getting my work done with the least amount of friction. Macs do that for me. Linux and Windows have too many barriers to make them a daily GUI driver.
> For the remainder of 2026, Microsoft is cooking up a big one: replacing more and more native apps with React Native. But don't let the name fool you, there's nothing "native" about it. These are projects designed to be easily ported across any machine and architecture, because underneath it all, it's just JavaScript. And each one spawns its own Chromium process, gobbling up your RAM so you can enjoy the privilege of opening the Settings app.
I'm a little tired of people junking on react native when they have no clue what they talked about (And I'm not even react native dev but iOS dev). React Native doesn't spawn any chromium process. This is not electron. React Native doesn't even use v8 engine. All UI views and widgets are native. Platform SDK is native, Yoga Layout is native C++ and even faster than UIKit layout. Majority of RN code is Native - go have a look at github at languages section. JS is only 19% of codebase, everything else is C++, Obj-C, Obj-C++, Kotlin, Java.
The problem AFAIK with startup being laggy was making http requests to downloads those ads.
I'm a little tired of "hey I installed Linux!" posts. Ok, you installed Linux. Great. Wow! Now what, wanna show a screenshot of your desktop with an anime girl as the baackground and neofetch in a terminal window?
I did read it, but it sounds like you didn't. It had quite a lot to say about the reason for the switch, the challenges involved, and alternative software to meet real needs. Eye candy was not the focus at all.
I'm still surviving on Windows but only because over the last four years, as each new annoyance and regression arose, I made the mistake of very gradually, in tiny increments, sinking the time into invoking the arcane incantations necessary to tame each one.
15 minutes to deactivate an entire branch of notification pathways, 20 minutes to (mostly) restore the Right-Ctrl key they hijacked into a CoPilot key. 10 minutes to restore Win10 functionality to the Win11 taskbar with the wonderful ExplorerPatcher. $5 spent on Start11 to sidestep the whole start menu train wreck. And little 3 to 5 minute fixes with WindHawk (an amazing store-like platform to discover, install and manage open source Windows GUI patches).
I'm the stupid frog who didn't leap from the gradually heating pot. I acclimated to the boiling. And it's... okay. At least for now. But I know someday soon, the thousand faceless product managers at MSFT will break something unfixable. Somehow exceed the considerable abilities of the large community finding clever hacks and patches to keep the harsh Win wasteland livable for hardy souls.
While I greatly appreciate Linux philosophically and deeply respect it architecturally, I still really liked what Windows got so close to being - right before MSFT shifted biz models, simultaneously de-investing and turning it into a promotional platform for their other business. When that day comes, it'll suck to leave behind the wonderful third-party tools like Everything search, Ditto clipboard and AHK automation that streamline my day.
The thing I don't understand is why MSFT refuses to just make a version of Windows that's a Product again. I'd gladly pay them $100/yr for an upgraded "Windows Ti Super+" that just wants to be a good operating system for advanced users, instead of a strategic moat or monetization flywheel.
I never realized Windows tuning was a thing (WindHawk, Start11). Thank you for mentioning those.
I recently had to install Windows 11 to play a video game that runs janky on Linux, and I am encountering all the annoying problems people are describing in this thread (forced updates, full-screen ads, etc). It does not bother me too much, since I effectively use Windows only to play that one game. But maybe I can tune Windows 11 into something less obtrusive with the custom hacks. Thanks.
You're welcome. One of the best things I did once I realized I was reluctantly on this journey, was start keeping notes in a cloud backed-up file of every registry setting I tweaked or little utility I installed. Just a quick cut and paste to remind me.
Of course some of the notes become stale or irrelevant as things evolve but it's still invaluable insurance if this Windows install eventually gets crufty and needs to be hosed out for a fresh start (which eventually happens even with diligent hygiene). Also, don't forget ExplorerPatcher which restores some essential Win10 taskbar and explorer functionality MSFT removed from Win11 (promising to eventually replace with new code but now, years later, obviously never will). It's clear at this point MSFT isn't devoting any serious effort toward re-implementing previous functionality or creating new features for power users.
AFAICT, the only things getting meaningful funding now are fixing critical 0days / bugs, reworking the interface to create "more exposure vectors to support corporate initiatives" and a couple under-resourced teams clearing only the most critical technical debt threatening the whole edifice. Meanwhile, every PM or UX designer who suggests "Hey, it'd be easier to just decide that new feature or unrestored functionality will just confuse 'our average user'" gets promoted. I just feel sorry for the engineers still there who joined the Windows team wanting to build toward a state-of-the-art operating system supporting a powerful, flexible, extensible, customizable user interface. Now it's "If it ain't broken, there's no funding to fix it" and "If it just broke, see if we can just remove it instead of fixing it", "if it's there but incomplete, remove what's there, patch over the hole and we'll pretend it was never there." And finally, "You seem ambitious and diligent, we just wish you'd align your interests with current strategic priorities (ie sticking AI where it doesn't belong or pushing Office, cloud, etc subs)."
Years ago MS depended on Windows. It was the profit center. Everything MS did was a moat to sell more seats. Even MS-Exchange was just a ploy to force enterprises to stop deploying any other operating system.
That all changed with Azure.
MS realized they could make billions in Windows or trillions with Azure.
They changed the org structure. Now Azure is at the top and everything else is a moat or a way to draw people to Azure. They changed the sales commission (your multiplier doesn’t kick in unless you’ve sold enough cloud services).
Windows is no longer a profit center. It’s a cost center.
Anything that scares people away from using Windows is a benefit.
Let those other suckers spend money developing operating systems. As long as it runs on a VM in Azure, Microsoft will profit.
Windows being worse and worse isn’t a bug. It’s a feature.
I agree, at this point it seems clear that Windows is not their priority anymore and they're trying to scare its users away. But Windows is so penetrated into everyone's office, industry and home that they shouldn't be allowed by law to just leave it like this.
Linux should consider paying Microsoft and Apple for new customers. Perhaps the customer acquisition funnel is quite long, at least it took 20 years of using Apple in my case before switching to Debian (Xfce), but it was worth it!
As a regular linux user for the last 20 years, who had used windows for games for about 25 of the last 30 years. When I had gotten a macbook pro for work in a company that was all apple there were three things that stood out: The M processors are amazing, the apple hardware is really good, and mac os is absolutely awful. I have no idea how people use mac.
> mac os is absolutely awful. I have no idea how people use mac.
I hear this from a lot of people when they get their first Mac. When they get specific about what their issues are, it tends to be that macOS doesn't do a thing how they are used to doing it, which is more of a learning curve issue, or rigid thinking. Apple software can be quite opinionated, those who fight against those opinions tend to have a hard time. This is true of any opinionated software.
> Apple software can be quite opinionated, those who fight against those opinions tend to have a hard time. This is true of any opinionated software.
And this is why many like me prefer Linux. We have our own opinions, and Linux enables us to enforce our opinions.
I've been a Linux guy for 25 years, and used Windows at work for the last 15. I now have to use MacOS at work.
I miss Windows. It wasn't totally better, but I managed to overcome most Windows headaches with workarounds. I haven't found the alternatives yet to MacOS.
From my perspective, both Windows and MacOS suck - but in different ways. I think the problem many Linux folks have with MacOS is that it is the "uncanny valley" of Linux. You get happy that you can use your usual UNIX flows, and then you find out that you can't.
I really want a good tiling window manager. I have yet to find one on MacOS that has the features AwesomeWM have.
It really sucks not being able to rebind keys to use Ctrl instead of Cmd in many apps. For basic tasks (opening/closing browser tabs), I have to use one set of keys in the daytime (at work), and another at night (at home). Why won't MacOS let me change them?
I got used to the Mac keyboard layout and I think it makes more sense - I now remap all Linux (using keyd) to actually use the Mac layout. The main thing that I like is that it's more ergonomic for me to press command + something with my thumb, than it is to press control + something with my little finger. So command+c, command+v, command+Tab, command+`... are all easily reachable when my fingers are still in the writing letters position, just slightly moved to the left.
MacOS lets you rebind Caps Lock, Ctrl, Option, Command, and the Globe/fn key in Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard shortcuts... > Modifier Keys. Does that not work for you?
I don't recall what problem I had with it, but it was a case of solving one problem and introducing another.
I don't want to globally swap Ctrl and Cmd. For some apps, the keys are identical to that on Windows. For others, it isn't. I need to be able to do it on a per app basis.
I assume the problem would be in the Terminal (assuming you use it), where Control + C is an often used shortcut, and flipping the modifiers globally would make this Command + C.
macOS uses Command instead of Control for a lot of things, but they didn't change how the shell works.
Most of the stuff isn't really personal preference, more like being temporarily used to a different way.
Btw search "modifier keys" in Mac sysprefs if you want to rebind command to control. I'm also sick of using separate shortcuts at work, but the other way around, gonna rebind Ubuntu.
Packages are not done well compared to linux. Brew is a poor replacement. It feels like the terminal and everything involved is constantly out of date.
The OS just has a lot of weird things, like the ribbon at the bottom taking up so much space. When I made is smaller and hidden except on mouse over it was incredibly rough.
Window management is decades behind windows or linux. It doesn't like maximizing windows and doesn't make partitioning screen space easy. I had to download a third party app to make it better, which was still worse than windows even in windows 7, and miles worse than linux with i3.
Mac has a lot of rough spots. I have two external monitors and occasionally after updates one monitor would be fuzzy or different resolutions, and it wouldn't go back until the next update.
I found myself really frustrated trying to use MacOS at work, because I'm a heavy user of virtual desktops. Turns out, I couldn't find a way to disable animations to switch between virtual desktops on MacOS. If there is a way, I'd be surprised.
Shortening the animation to minimum was not sufficient for my preference.
You can run nix on macOS now. You can also drag windows into corners or edges to tile them, it is almost exactly like Windows 7 or 10. You can even have tiling window managers on macOS that emulate i3.
Your complaints with the dock seem like a personal choice... I like the dock behavior but if you don't, probably not a lot that will fix that, it will always suck.
Sad to report that external monitor support is still terrible.
2024. Dragging windows to the corners isnt how I would do it in windows or linux, I just use a super key and an arrow key and it moves it as needed along the tile. Having to drag a window around is terrible design.
Going all the way back to Windows 7 I preferred dragging to arrow keys, I legitimately don’t understand how that’s “terrible design” and not just a personal preference.
I would suspect a sizable portion of Windows users didn’t even realize that snapping with the arrow keys was possible, since keyboard shortcuts are (generally) harder to discover than mouse actions.
MacOs is extraordinarily opinionated about how everything should work and frequently attempt to predict your workflow.
Linux/Windows (historically) were straightforawrd, each tool did exactly what it said it would do, and it was up to you to learn how to use the tools available.
On linux/windows, if a button was "capture image", it would just capture the image on the screen. On a mac a "capture image" button could do anything from displaying the image on the screen, to saving it in a photos folder, to saving and syncing it to an iCloud account. Whatever the apple PM decided the most common use case was, and god help you if you want to do something different.
If you've been in the mac ecosystem for a while, you've grown used to this and don't notice any longer. You may even occasionally express happiness when a function does something unexpected and helpful!
If you're coming from anywhere else, its unbelievably painful.
With Linux/Windows you’re supplied with a toolbox and from that toolbox you’re expected to cobble together a workflow that works for you and maintain it.
I spent a significant amount of time trying to learn Tasks inside of Outlook and come up with a system that would make it remotely useful. I failed repeatedly. They eventually bought Wunderlist and replaced it with that, which still has some rough edges (last I tried) due to the legacy Outlook Tasks integration.
Apple, more often than not, is looking to identify a problem and give an opinionated solution on how to handle it. If you’re ok with their solution, great, problem solved. If you’re not, you end up either fighting with the Apple tools or finding a 3rd party toolbox style app that lets you cobble together a workflow. I found just going with the opinionated solution removes a lot of needless stress from my life. There are some places I do go 3rd party, but I reevaluate often to ask if I really need these things and if they’re worth the trouble.
It ends up being a question of what my goals are with the computer. Am I looking to work on the operating system and apps to tune them to exactly what I want, or am I just looking for the system to fade into the background so I can do other things. When I was younger, I found tweaking and playing with everything to be a bit of a hobby. These days, I just want to do what I need to get done and move on with my life.
Not just this. I'm linux/macos user since early 2000's and still sometimes hate macos because they have very annoying bugs that are never fixed, and annoying corpo decisions.
E.g. it keeps opening Music app whenever I connect bluetooth earbuds. I can't delete Music app, it just keeps popping up with imbecile message about "user is not logged in" or something. I run a script that monitors that Music.app is running and kills-9 it.
Or blinking desktop background issue, that's been there for years, accumulated many support threads, and still not fixed.
Random services like coreaudiod that suddenly start consuming 100% CPU for no apparent reason.
Macbook throttling (thanks God, gone with M cpu's)
I can keep going but my point is macos has legit problems that can't be simply shrugged off with "they just hold it the wrong way".
Like any other mass product tbh, except rare ideal products like Factorio game or sqlite.
Home/End don't work correctly (external keyboard).
Cmd-Tab switching between applications instead of windows is utterly stupid. (Yes I know there is some magic keystroke that will do it, but who even wants the standard behavior? Like why even do that?)
If there is a window under another window, and you click on something in it, the OS will ignore the click, it will just activate the window.
So now you have to click twice, except what if it's actually active? So now you have to always check if a window is active - which is harder than necessary because of how Macs have the toolbar on top, not near the actual window. (This is especially bad when you have two monitors.)
The toolbar is far from the window, leading to extra mouse movements.
There is no maximize button, instead it's a full screen button.
If you manage to get a window off-screen, there's almost no way to get it back (you have to pick tile windows or something like that to make the mac move it). If you do show all windows, and click on it, nothing obvious happens.
I'm trying to add the screenshot app to the launch bar - I can't, I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
The finder is an utter disaster - I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory. It's like finder is trying very hard to pretend there's no such thing as directories.
If you have two monitors you can't have an app halfway across both of them, it's always on one of the order.
If I move an app to the bottom right corner the OS will "helpfully" move it back up, even though I moved it down. (This is especially funny when you realize it frequently manages to place windows off screen - why can't it be helpful then?)
When you drag a window sometimes you get this white outline that will resize the window for your screen - I have yet to figure out when this activates and when it doesn't.
When you drag a window from a larger monitor to a small one, it will resize it - sometime. But despite that it manages to place the window offset - so it's the right size, but like 40 pixels to the left.
Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
I hate mac os window management as much as the next guy, but I do find that it's much easier to tell which window is actually active than on newer versions of windows where all windows look the same. Hell, I've typed my password in the wrong window more times than I can count, because even though the window which just appeared was on top, had a blinking cursor and everything, it wasn't active. This even happened with the UAC prompt, but I think it's been fixed now.
I also like the first click in a window to not be passed through. I don't want to have to make sure I'm not clicking on some active part which will immediately have an unwanted effect. I've actually configured my Linux WM to behave that way. It still passes through the scroll wheel, though.
> The finder is an utter disaster - I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory. It's like finder is trying very hard to pretend there's no such thing as directories.
You can enable a clickable bread-crumb panel somewhere. Also, cmd+up. cmd+down goes down one level, instead of enter. This was very frustrating to me at first.
> I'm trying to add the screenshot app to the launch bar - I can't, I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
Never tried to do that, but I loved that there were system-wide shortcuts to access it, with an easy switch between modes (cmd+shift+3/4 for screen / area if memory serves).
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
On Windows, I have the opposite problem, kind of. It only detects my 5k external screen as such if it's plugged in when booting up. Unplug while it's running, or sleep/wake the laptop and it's gone. Linux, again, works fine.
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
HOLY SHIT, my work Mac does this all the time and my personal Mac does not, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, nobody I have talked to understands it, it drives me absolutely insane.
Everything else in your post is either a personal preference and/or not a problem for my workflow
> Home/End don't work correctly (external keyboard).
macOS tends to use the arrow keys for this, with various modifiers. Command + the arrow moves to the start or end of things (documents or lines), Option will be at the word or line level. Adding Shift to either of those will highlight those regions.
> Cmd-Tab switching between applications instead of windows is utterly stupid.
I've never been a cmd-tab user, so I don't notice thins. Once Exposé (now Mission Control) came out, I just stuck with that. I bind it to an extra button on my mouse.
> The toolbar is far from the window, leading to extra mouse movements.
The reason for this dates back to the original design of the Lisa. Bill Atkinson explains it in this video. It's a trade off between having issues with menus when windows are small, and having to move more. I believe this is why they added mouse acceleration, so no matter where you were, you could get up to the menus fairly quickly.
> There is no maximize button, instead it's a full screen button.
They're starting to get better on this. The full screen button has a menu to do many things, and one of them is to maximize (they call it Fill). You can also just drag the window to the top edge to maximize it, like Aerosnap on Windows.
> If you manage to get a window off-screen, there's almost no way to get it back
Windows > Center, will bring the active window to the center of the screen.
> I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
You can drag icons from LaunchPad to the Dock to add them. They'll still be where they were in LaunchPad, but now also in the Dock for quick access. LaunchPad is gone in macOS 26 though, so you can either right-click it in the Dock while it's there to tell it to keep in there (or just drag it over to the left and it will remember it)... or find it in Finder /Applications/Utilities/Screenshot
> I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory.
I usually show the Path Bar whenever I get a new Mac. In Finder, View > Show Path Bar. This shows your path at the bottom of the Finder window. You can click on any parent directory to go to it.
If you don't want to do that, or want another way, right-click the folder name at the top of the Finder window. This will show you a dropdown menu of all the parent directories, pick however far you want to go up the tree.
> If you have two monitors you can't have an app halfway across both of them, it's always on one of the order.
This one annoys me a bit too, and can lead to that window off-screen thing you mentioned earlier. It's one of the reason I went with a large primary monitor instead of having 4 external displays, like I had before.
> If I move an app to the bottom right corner the OS will "helpfully" move it back up
I think this has to do with the horizontal area the Dock is on being "protected" for lack of a better word, so nothing gets trapped behind the Dock. I agree, that having it do this for off-screen windows would be nice.
> When you drag a window sometimes you get this white outline that will resize the window for your screen
This is what I mentioned earlier to maximize. It works pretty much like on Windows. It activates not when the window hits an edge, but when your mouse cursor that is holding a window hits an edge.
Top edge: Maximize
Side edge: Half the screen
Corner: 1/4 of the screen
By default there will be gaps between these tiled windows, which some people don't like. You can remove the gaps in the Settings.
> When you drag a window from a larger monitor to a small one, it will resize it
I think this has to do with scaling of the monitors, or just that one monitor is dramatically smaller. My main setup is a laptop + a large monitor. The windows on my main display are bigger than the entire laptop screen, so it makes them smaller so they fit.
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
On my work setup I use an CalDigit dock and I occasionally have this happen after a big upgrade. I don't have to disconnect everything, I just have to login using my laptop, then trust the dock.
On my home setup, I use my monitor as the dock for my mouse and keyboard. With this, every time I reboot I need to login with the laptop and then approve the monitor as the dock for the other things to work. I don't have to unplug/replug anything (thankfully).
I tried looking into this once or twice. People online talked about various trust settings, but nothing seemed to stick. I really only reboot when there is an update, so it's pretty infrequent. If I was rebooting daily I'm sure it would drive me insane, to the point where I'd stop using the monitor as a dock.
Anything in particular? I get that it takes some tweaking but so does Linux. The biggest thing that you'll probably never get the way you want is window tiling - it's my personal bugaboo with MacOS. Maybe there's a way to get what I want ...
For me, the biggest pain point is the way it decides which window to bring to the front. If I minimize a window, and then click on the application in the bar, it won't show the window just minimized, instead it always seems to show the older window. Really annoying when using an app with many windows
right, but if you cmd-tab, it brings up ALL the windows: say you had multiple browser windows open, and only want to go back to the one you just used before (think reading some docs while coding).
There are an absolute ton of very capable tiling window managers for macOS, posted here frequently. From yabi to aerospace to fully programmable ones like hammerspoon. A quick search will turn up plenty more. I would be shocked if none of them meet your needs.
Shouldn't need to install third party stuff for such a basic feature. One more thing that will possibly break with updates or not play nice with something.
Windows explorer got significantly better in 11, except for fucking context menus. Also it's incredibly slow and unstable now and frequently crashes, taking the taskbar down with it (???).
But, at least it has tabs. Jesus Christ, took long enough.
Interesting. My experience over a decade was that (expensive) Apple hardware was unreliable or poorly designed ... from the IIsi to the iMac. One exception: the murdered Power clone was great. The iMac vertical screen-stripe fiasco (affected hundreds of users within the warranty period, before they shut down the forum, then took years to respond to) was capped with a hard-drive fail after a year. My 'never again' still in effect 15 years later.
My home-made AMD tower is in its 6th year (running Linux) with no, zero, fails.
Six years ago everything was stable and solid, but Apple's board of directors seems to have decided that new Mac users can't handle a computer interface anymore and started merging it with mobile OS interfaces. And the result is absolutely terrible.
They also decided that they have to capture React devs and everything should use a declarative UI, which has brought us the wonderful new Systems Settings.
Windows is absolute garbage, I agree. But the application windows behave normally, maximize when I want them, will take half a screen, quarter screen, etc. with just a quick hotkey. Mac doesn't have that extremely basic functionality without a 3rd party extension, which is absurd. But I don't use windows other than if my work gives me one, I am purely linux otherwise.
Joking aside, I often hear people say "they should" when talking about GNU/Linux (for example: "they should just standardize on one audio stack"), as if there were a central authority making those decisions. What many don't realize is that with FOSS comes freedom of choice... and inevitably, an abundance of choice. That diversity isn't a flaw, it's a consequence of how the ecosystem works.
There's free choice for those OSes to use different kernels, but they don't, they all use the same Linux (rather than say BSD). There's a lot of advantage in getting aligned on things, even though anyone can choose not to.
As much as I love the idea of moving to Linux - Mac hardware is like two years ahead of PC currently in pretty much any regard aside from gaming. I keep looking for an iteration where it makes sense to switch but currently the intel core 3 stuff is at best comparable to M5 base. Strix Halo is much more power hungry and also not that impressive other than having a bunch of cores. Nothing comes close to the pro/max chips in M4 series. And with RAM/storage pricing Apple upgrades are looking reasonably priced (TBD when M5 Pro devices launch).
So I can either get a top tier tool when I upgrade this year or I can buy a subpar device, and the power management is going to likely be even worse on Linux.
I think this mostly only holds if you use local compute in a portable form factor.
Most of my personal development these days is done on my home server - 9995wx, 768GB, rtx 6000 pro blackwell GPU in headless mode. My work development happens in a cloud workstation with 64 cores and 128GB of ram but builds are distributed and I can dial up the box size on demand for heavier development.
I use laptops practically entirely as network client devices. Browser, terminal window, perhaps a VS Code based IDE with a remote connection to my code. Tailscale on my personal laptop to work anywhere.
I'm not limited by local compute, my devices are lightweight, cheap(ish) and replaceable, not an investment.
I'd like to use this kind of setup but unfortunately every time I try there's just soo many annoying edge cases that are wasting my time. Especially when I need to do FE/Mobile - but even BE has gotchas. I guess it depends on your environment - I'll try making this setup work sometimes in the next few months again.
> Mac hardware is like two years ahead of PC currently in pretty much any regard aside from gaming
and any contemporary ergonomics. Seriously, macbooks are an environmental hazard at this point: ultra glossy screen, hand twisting keyboard, wrist cutting sharp edges, lack of modern surge protections etc. etc. I genuinely don't understand this sentiment that macbook hardware is good.
So whatever resources you have, Apple will use them mostly to render 3D glass effects. With Debian (Xfce), I can't speak for other desktop environments, you need roughly three times fewer resources to run the OS itself.
Apple is disabling downgrading across all of iOS, and starting to do the same with MacOS. So you need to keep old hardware to run older MacOS versions, and it's only a matter of a few years before Tahoe is the latest OS you can run on your Mac.
Oh, I must be clear here: I'm not considering M1 Macs or later, since Apple closed the ecosystem with Apple Silicon.
What you did is a downgrade in what's called the supported OS.
However, if you decide to downgrade to Catalina on an M1 Mac, it's not possible — Big Sur is the earliest version that runs on Apple Silicon.
Anyway, you cannot downgrade to a macOS version older than what your Mac originally came with. So if you buy a Mac now, Tahoe will be the minimum option.
Old Macs can certainly be downgraded. iOS doesn’t allow it though and they pulled the latest security update which fucking sucks. And if you buy a M5, Tahoe is the only OS that’s available.
I have nothing against old Macs and MacOS, but I certainly won't be buying anything since the Apple Silicon switch, because now only Apple controls which OS you can run.
That's a very temporary solution to be fair. KDE and even, shudder, Gnome put mac os and windows to shame when it comes to responsiveness, performance, and resource usage.
I mean, KDE does 3x the stuff for 1/3 the cost. That's more memory and CPU for your IDE or, more likely, chrome tabs.
If Linux had a revenue stream and model, this would make sense. But the style of open-source is to make good software, and let others gravitate to you as a result.
HP Zbook Ultra G1a, 128GB RAM. Add SSD to taste. HP supported (Canonical OEM) Ubuntu with KDE. Works great as a daily driver with a UGreen GAN charger.
I can also recommend HP Zbook Ultra G1a. It's probably the closest thing to Macbooks at the moment. It has lower battery life and latest M chips are still faster but it's fast enough for me. The hardware is solid and sw support is great.
32MB ram <-- no way. 4 and 8MB were the standard (8MB being grand), you could find 16MB on some Pentiums. So 40MB drive and 32MB RAM is an exceptionally unlikely combo.
Nah, as the other poster said 4 or 8 MB was what was common on 486 machines. Even less on 386. Most 386 motherboards didn't even support more than 16MB.
So this depends if it was a 72 pin DIMM board. I don't think you could get there (easily?) on a 30 pin board, but 72 may have had native support for 64 out of the box.
Yeah, IIRC my first computer, or at least the first one I really maintained, was a Pentium 2 with 32MB of ram and a 2gb hard drive. Good ole gateway pcs.
My Dad had one of them. The first machine I actually purchased myself was a Dragon 32 (6809 processor, 32k RAM) sometime around 1981 - i can remember everything about it, including all the terrible cassette games I bought for it and the money I spent on ROM cartridges (word processor, assembler/debugger). These days I can't even remember what's in my Steam library.
I still have my Mac 128k with external disk drive and printer. Bought new in Jan 1985 or late Dec 1984. I paid the exorbitant price to upgrade it to 512k during the first year I owned it. I think the RAM needed to be desoldered and new chips soldered in place so it needed to be returned to the store where I bought it.
Shout out to the author of the blog for writing an engaging post that accurately the MS experience. For me, switching is still a work in progress since I am the family troubleshooter and there are lots of things to mess with. It will happen because so far, the ones I have switched have no complaints.
Interestingly I can't remember any specs since about 22 years ago.
First modern PC (dos/win3.1) I had a 12mhz 286, 1 meg of ram, AT keyboard, 40MB hard drive. This progressed via a 486/sx33/4m/170mb and at one point a pentium2 600 with (eventually) 96mb of ram, 2g hard drive, then a p3 of some sort, but after that it's just "whatever".
First family PC was a used IBM PC XT, 8088 w/ 640kb ram and a cga card with an amber monochrome monitor attached. I remember getting a 14.4 modem on it, and it would freeze, had to force it to 9600bps. Then managed to wranle a 486sx w/ 4mb ram and an EGA card and display.
First decent computer I built was an AMD 5x86 133mhz with the larger cache module and a whopping 64mb ram that I'd traded for some ANSi work. The irony is for some things it ran circles around the Pentiums that friends had, for others it just slogged. Ran OS/2 warp like a beast though. Ever since then, I've mostly maxed out the ram in my systems... I wend from 128gb down to 96GB for my AM5 build though since the most I've ever used is around 75gb, and I wanted to stick to a single pair at a higher speed.
36 years ago: A Wyse branded AT clone 12.5MHz 286 with 1MB of ram, a 10MB hard drive and a Hercules graphics card (it was a decommissioned CAD machine from my dad's work).
I documented all of my early computers throughout early college, and I'm glad I did. I remember the first computers well, but without those notes, I wouldn't remember the first ten in so much detail. My first computer that was not a family computer was: UMAX 233mhz Pentium 2, 64Mb Ram, 8Gb HDD (was crushed when sat on by sibling)
The 5150 was just an "IBM PC" not an XT, but still... I think we're talking about the same thing.
I still have mine! 4.77 MHz 8088, 8087 math coprocessor, CGA graphics card, 5.25" floppy (360K, double-sided, double-density), 20 MB Seagate hard drive (I believe the motherboard has newer ROM chips to support that), AST SixPakPlus expansion card to bring it up to 640 KB RAM and a Parallel Port, a Serial Port, a Game Port, and a Real Time Clock (so you don't have to type in the date and time every bootup.) At one point I had a Sound Blaster as well, which was nice. The floppy drive and the hard drive each have their own controller cards so there's almost no more room for expansion! The motherboard also has the keyboard and cassette (!!!) port. I get an error code about the cassette port so I doubt it would work but I never had the equipment to try it out anyway.
> (c) stops turning every OS feature into an ad, and makes it utilitarian again
Microsoft and OpenAI have the same problem in that they have a massive userbase that costs them money but doesn’t generate any revenue. The only known ways of sustaining such a structure is ads or becoming a marketplace and they failed at the second so I doubt your wish will ever come true.
I'd be super happy if they left Windows alone and did just this for years to come. Use the other products to make money, and just maintain this Win 2000/7/10 type OS without new features, and stop trying to hide everything behind fancy UI. I still revert back to old control panels to do the necessary tweaks.
I think the most likely thing that will happen is MS will have a hard split between the corporate and consumer OSes. Much like they tried to do with windows 2000 vs windows 9x.
And much like what happened with that split, I think you'll see consumers getting copies of corporate windows to get around/away from consumer windows.
As an Ableton user myself, I’m pretty surprised that this musician could just… switch from Ableton to Bitwig. Goes to show how dire the situation was I guess.
I still have yet to hear any non-technical person I know encounter issues on Windows and seriously consider switching away. The learned helplessness instilled by Microsoft is very difficult to get people to shake off.
Bitwig was developed by ex-Ableton devs, and the layout is incredibly similar. It's a very easy transition compared to coming from a DAW like FL or Logic.
It's also a really attractive offering once you hear about it. It's intuitive, cross-platform, half the price of Ableton for a 3-device lifetime license without geofencing, and the software contains a modular software synth atop which most of the preset instruments are built that is so versatile that its value alone exceeds the price tag of the entire daw.
Big fan. Share your thoughts if you give it a whirl.
I came in here looking for this thread specifically (I can't imagine moving off of Ableton). Thanks for taking a sec to write this up! I might give it a try, just for the synth alone.
My problem (having moved Win to Lin, Ableton to Bitwig too) is with sound. Latency is one and bad. Getting any sound at all on Bluetooth is also hard, where the latency is even worse. Wish there was a simple "apt install make-audio-work-well-for-daw" I could run on my KDE Ubuntu 24.04...
Hmm. I'm on a stock Arch install and had no latency or quality issues to speak of. Bluetooth works out of the box using `bluez` and `blueman`, though Bluetooth is still Bluetooth, with inherent latency. Some headphones have low-latency modes that can be activated in their respective apps at the expense of ANC/battery life, maybe that'll help?
The apt command you're looking for may be the audio backend, though. `apt install pipewire wireplumber -y`. Won't break your existing pulseaudio setup, but will allow low-latency operations. (I think--I avoid the dumpster fire that is Ubuntu like the plague, so ymmv)
I switched from Windows (11) to Linux (Xubuntu) back in November, mostly because of all the AI stuff I didn't trust. While Linux is working ok for me, I can see why people complain about its not being user-friendly, particularly if you're not a Real Programmer. I've had to go to forums too many times to figure out why this or that doesn't work. The latest is the fact that 'apt update' has stopped working today for Vivaldi--it worked ok yesterday, but I have not been able to get it working after spending an hour or more. (If you're interested, there's a thread here: https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/115133/public-key-is-not-ava....)
Also the fact that some apps update via 'apt', some by 'snap', and if you don't watch out some might update by 'flatpack'. While I think snap is updating automatically, it's hard to tell; some mornings I wake my PC up and only hours later do I discover that there's an update pop-up hidden behind other windows.
Oh, and every day I get a 'system problem' popup that asks if I want to submit a report, but won't tell me what the alleged problem was. I thought only Microsoft did that sort of thing?
I'm also not happy about the malware protection. Apparently the only anti-virus still available is ClamAV (and Kapersky, but for reasons I won't go into I don't trust that). But the gui for ClamAV has not been supported for several years, and running it from the command line is not so straightforward, never mind keeping it updated. (And don't tell me that Linux doesn't need antivirus protection. That's just whistling past the graveyard, particularly if you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks.)
I guess there are distros that are better about some of these things, but life is too short to try all of them, and hope that some bug (like the Vivaldi update thing) doesn't show up months later.
So yes, I'm using Linux, and I'm not planning to go back to Windows. But Linux sure could work better.
Can't help you with AV but otherwise your issues and confusions are all Ubuntu and Canonical and nothing on there is representative of other Linux dists.
Ubuntu is highly opinionated. Great for some/many people but not the best fit for everyone or even an obvious recommendation for newcomers (anymore). For your consideraion: Mint is basically a project that repackages Ubuntu to adress those issues to make it accessible for people not onboard with the Ubuntu idiosyncracies and more casual users who just want their desktop. Should be an easy migration for you.
Your Vivaldi problem comes from that you trusted gpg key for their stable. release repo, and fail verifying package from their archive. repo. Change repo to stable (that's prob what you want) or get the key for archive.
Your Ubuntu experience as told is not representative of desktop Linux experienced outside of Ubuntu. "But Linux sure could work better" is a misleading conclusion to share when that's all you know.
You're right that I mixed up the Vivaldi repo (maybe you are the one who pointed that out on the thread I linked). But even after fixing that, it's still not working---slightly different warning message, but still about gpg.
I recommend Mint over Ubuntu, the snap issue does not exist there.
> And don't tell me that Linux doesn't need antivirus... you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks.
This is a misunderstanding of the threat model of Wifi. Stick to software from the signed repos and SSL. Avoid attachments, keep updated. I've never used antivirus with Linux, despite working on symantec antivirus back in the day.
> particularly if you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks
If you're on Linux and have a firewall, so there are no listening ports, there is no threat from using public wifi. TLS encrypts your connection on ~all websites these days.
I'll just point out that while Ubuntu ships with a firewall, it's not enabled by default, and at least in Windows the firewall is enabled by default. I have since enabled it in Ubuntu.
I've spent a long career getting good at Linux. Real good. But I'm only human. Over the decades, the number of how-tos, wiki pages, Linux distros, Linux kernel source, other programs documentation and source; all of that which I've ingested and used in practice and gotten good at, doesn't hold a candle to AI having been trained on every single last one of them. The solution to your apt/Vivaldi problem is easy: install Claude code, and paste in the error. Hit ctrl-o to gain insight on how it fixes it.
You used to be able to charge a decent hourly consulting rate to do some Linux, but because Claude code is so good at it, there's no market for that anymore.
(for one, your URI is wrong, resulting in apt looking for
.../deb/dists/stable/dists/stable/Release )
Right now I'm running a setup with Fedora on my work machine, CachyOS on my laptop, Windows on my home battlestation gaming rig and a Mac Mini M4 I bought for a educational discount. I basically run 3 different kernels, and I feel the same with the author here.
Windows 11 is such a mess that Microsoft thought that they are Apple, so they want to enforce Microsoft Account just like Apple enforces Apple ID to some extent, except this time Microsoft is staking in higher than Apple -- Any active "exploits" that bypasses Microsoft Account got patched not so soon after they are published, and that is what finally intrigued me.
Unfortunately, some of my games runs on Easy Anti-Cheat, and to my knowledge, the Linux switch is opt-in rather than opt-out, most game developers simply didn't put the Linux as a matter on the table even with the introduction of Steam Deck and Steam OS.
I'm planning to wipe my PC after settling some scores, and I still have to go for Windows, but except I will be rolling back to Windows 10 IoT LTSB. Chances are, if I have another drive (which is slowing going into the unobtainium territory, just like RAM)
But, long as I settled that dust, I will bring another PC back to my home. I'm planning to get another CachyOS on that.
With Windows 10 EOL, I had to decide whether to upgrade my laptop to Windows 11 or Linux. I've been a Windows user for decades, but with all the user-hostile bullshit coming out of Microsoft and the degradation of performance on Windows 11, I decided to go with Ubuntu instead.
I'm still on a Windows 11 desktop for the time being, but seriously considering switching there as well. The main thing stopping me is the undeniably better ecosystem on Windows for professional video editing and music production, with no comparable open-source options. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on high quality virtual instruments and effects plugins. But if I can manage to run these under emulation on Linux or find equivalent Linux-native versions, I will happily abandon all Microsoft products at this point.
Recommend to split your music workstation from your personal files machine to get some privacy back. Then run cleanup scripts to pare Windows down to the bone. Also Mint over Ubuntu.
Why Mint over Ubuntu? I like the Ubuntu experience out of the box. It seems to handle high-DPI and per-display UI scaling well, due to Wayland. From what I've read, Mint still uses X11.
Linux since 1996! In chronological order: Slackware, SuSE, DLD, LSF, Gentoo, Ubuntu (starting with 04.10!), eventually Debian 12, now 13.
Back in the days I compiled the kernel myself! :-D
Sure, occasionally I used Windows 3.11, 95, 98se, XP, Vista, 7 and 10, but never as my main system.
I am a software developer, but also do gaming, video production and audio producing. I never got the discussion, Linux works for me for almost 30 years now.
One day, I applied for a new job and was already on the company tour. When they told me that I could only use a Windows computer provided by them, I quickly said, ‘No, thank you,’ and left. The faces they made were truly priceless.
Another day, I applied for another job again and, after some hesitation, unfortunately said yes when they tried to foist a Windows computer on me, because the actual project was really cool. That was the worst year of my career, thanks to restricted Windows 10.
Out of curiosity, back when you were compiling the kernel yourself was it because you wanted to learn it or because you wanted to add more modules to the kernel that didnt exist there by default?
The kernel compilation had a configuration UI where you could select all the drivers you wanted to literally build in. So I selected just what I needed, to save memory, recompiled, waited an hour et voila. Kernel modules came later.
Memory and storage were far more expensive and limited in 1996 than they are today.
Go a few years earlier and you find that Microsoft introduced a boot-time menuconfig system mostly to enable people to select which *drivers* to load because, if you weren't careful, you could wind up leaving too little memory for the game you were trying to run.
That makes sense! I was a kid in the early 90s so I enjoyed "default" Win95/98 without having to have needed to do any sort of fiddling. I was too young to have used earlier versions of that outside of once or twice.
I'm basically developing on Linux despite running windows. I just set the terminal emulator to open wsl by default, and have VSCode connect to the WSL instance. This also gives you the "native docker" the author mentions, just ignore Docker for Windows exists and install docker in your wsl.
This does have downsides, and the author lists many. It also has some marginal upsides. For example running multiple distros for testing is trivial, and while the Windows file Explorer might be a shitshow that reached its peak over two decades ago it somehow seems to still be leagues ahead of the options in linux gui land. And of course the situation in gaming and content creation used to be way worse just a couple years ago, so for many switching only became viable relatively recently
That seems to be the preferred path for many devs on Windows - unless you can get your hands on a Mac at work WSL is much better/easier. Most non-software companies may not even offer a Linux laptop.
Both MacOS and Windows with wsl are perfectly fine for development. Especially MacOS.
There's literally nothing special about Linux when it comes to development. And there are quite a few downsides especially when it comes to some specialized tooling because many vendors often only have Windows tools for their devices.
I would have to agree with this. I don't understand people how say developing on Linux is somehow better. I have built C++ software across Windows, macOS and Linux and I can't say one is easier than the other at all. Perhaps it is because of the package management system that makes installing a compiler "easier" than downloading Xcode or downloading/running the Visual Studio installer??
I certainly don't find development tools better on Linux, particularly for C++ debugging. Windows/Visual Studio is the leader in that regard.
I have also done C#, PHP, Java, JS + web development across all 3 and don't see the difference.
I find a Linux host with a development guest OS the best to work in. It allows for snapshots, backups, and sharing development environments. Solution A might need a different environment than Solution B.
Funny enough, the bluetooth stack works better on a bare metal Linux box than a Windows one. Audio starts being played sooner.
This depends entirely on your stack and preferred workflow. MacOS is increasingly hostile to powerusers. If you don't mind following their golden path, all is fine, otherwise... I wonder how long before you have to enable a scary "developer mode" to install software outside the app store.
While that's true, I still don't have any issues running any stack on Mac (I've had Java, Python, C++, some Rust, Erlang/Elixir; previously I also had PHP and Ruby)
I guess I'd argue that "it depends on lot on what you mean by development".
For anyone hosting a product on servers (almost everything web related)... there IS something special about linux: It's where your product is going to run in production.
For folks who are doing work in other spaces, especially development that involves vendor provided physical devices: Then yes, I agree with you. Vendor support is almost always better for Windows, and sometimes entirely non-existent otherwise. I'll note this is starting to change, but it's not yet over the hump.
The only place I'd consider macOS as a "perfectly fine" linux alternative is mobile (and mainly because Apple forces it with borderline abusive policy/terms). Otherwise it's just a shittier version of linux on nice hardware, riddled with incompatible tooling, forced emulation problems, and a host of other issues. It's not really even "prettier" anymore.
> For anyone hosting a product on servers (almost everything web related)... there IS something special about linux: It's where your product is going to run in production.
I've been at several corporations and companies where the target OS doesn't matter in the least, and I've had multiple projects on my own where it was the same.
Most of development is so far removed from actual hardware and actual OS, it doesn't matter if your backend is developed on Mac and runs on Linux.
Before MS really started mucking things up the past few years, I was referring to WSL as my favorite Linux distro... MS took a LOT of the rough edges off in terms of development.
Did you have a particularly bad experience? Things have changed _a little_ since 1992.
I switched from Windows in 2018 because I was trying to install some Python packages, and it was hours of work to find the specific visual C++ runtimes that were needed to get them working.
After the last "update" the setting for turning windows "game optimization" on and off doesn't work anymore and made factorio unplayable (it MUST be off, otherwise it optimized lag and stuttering and it automatically turns on after every larger update). Since games was the only reason I still had a pc with windows it was time to move. For funzies it tried installing some updates on the last shutdown (it got wiped afterwards).
The only pc I now have with windows on it is a early 00's pc with 98SE on it.
Microsoft probably has a problem with tech debt, yes. That is however not the problem. Instead, the product strategy is. And it was bad even before LLMs.
Windows is under 10% of their revenue these days. It’s simply not important to leadership. Just like Xbox - just let it slowly die as you squeeze any last remaining cents out
Windows is a small part of their revenue on purpose, because the OS monopoly enables them to sell and push a lot of their other revenue streams. Windows has always been easy to pirate for the same reason.
But make no mistake, it is very important for Microsoft and leadership, or they wouldn't keep updating it so much and talking about it so much on their keynotes and marketing.
I think Linux is not quite there as gaming system. Simply due to games' compatibility (and I don't play latest and hottest titles, more like Cities-Skylines/Transport Fever/Anno/Satisfactory etc). Plus to my knowledge NVidia drivers are still an issue.
But for literally anything else I think it's ready. Just browsing? Office work (writing/spreadsheets/presentations/email)? Development? Media production? You're good.
For Linux-curious I'd advise to get a dedicated hardware, like 5/7 year old business machine (Thinkpad or even smth like Dell Latitude), they'll be under $300. Don't do Arch (unless you do that for the sake of being able to install Arch). Instead, get Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Debian, Zorin (the last one specifically for Windows users), or one of many other beginner-friendly distros, and drive it for a bit. Get the software you want, see if it works for you, and if you don't like it, it's all good. If you do, you can gradually move all your stuff to the new machine, or install Linux on your main machine.
That's what I did (quite a) few years ago when I got fed up with Windows 8, took me about a year, but I've been on Mint Mate ever since. My gaming rig is still Windows 11 but all it has is my Steam collection.
My quick rebuttal is that gaming is pretty close to 'there' if you pick a distro that prioritizes it.
I run bazzite-DX (nvidia rtx4070) for dev and pleasure and gaming there is ON POINT. I don't play any anti-cheat games, but Cities Skylines, Doom Eternal, Cyberpunk (with full raytracing and HDR), GTA5-Remaster, etc, all run like champs. As of last month, full HDR10 mode started working in chrome and video players too, so hdr videos get those popping brights.
>Plus to my knowledge NVidia drivers are still an issue.
This is an overblown issue. For the most it is a case of installing the proprietary driver package following the instructions for your distro. One more step than AMD which just works, but not really any more difficult than installing another package.
That's not my experience at all. The majority of games, especially on Steam, work out of the box.
I would advise the opposite: Don't get an old box. Take your new box, take a new hard disk, and just install Bazzite (and pretend you don't know anything about Linux, just stick with the defaults).
That didn't work for me. I had my email, documents, some software I used on Windows and files it created (think Photoshop and PSDs). I needed time to find out if I could find similar/equivalent software on Linux, set up new workflows for my work and stuff like that. So I had my primary machine still on Windows and used the secondary to see how all this would work. And then gradually moved all the software, data, and workflows to Linux, until I didn't have anything left that could only work on Windows (well, except games I guess).
As for games, I think a lot of them DO work on Linux but it's easier for me to have dedicates gaming rig on Windows instead of guessing if this new game that I like will work on Linux.
Linux user since about 1998, leaning towards BSDs today. Network engineer + R&D + software dev. Daily driver (desktop) about 2002-2010 - work made it too difficult later. Very occasional gamer. Corporate world will give you a Windows VDI or web cloudy things if need be. Win10 on my laptop out of habit, mostly using terminals + WSL and a browser. Lightroom user, but flexible. None of the other gear I own runs Windows, and the numbers are significant (racks). I run my laptops until they die - the current one is 10y and hasn't died yet but won't run Win11 without going through hoops. Next laptop will not be running Windows outside of a VM.
Win7 was a workhorse, moving to win10 felt unnecessary - and I still remember how the laptop vendor had a system performance tuning app for win7 that you could use to put it into limp mode and have it run on battery for a full day and most of the night. No such thing on win10 on the same hardware. Everything has its time, and hopefully I'll never even get to experience the joy that apparently is win11. The times for software freedom of choice are as good as they have ever been.
I was away from Windows for the past 12 years. Recently we bought a desktop and had to install Wondows on it. I was just shocked by the level of shittification that happened. I can't even find a Solitaire game that is not littered with ads.
I was a big fan of Satya. I thought he had new vision that aligns with the emerging world. I saw some successes he had with cloud, office 365 etc. But when offered to take Altman in, I knew Satya is no longer maintaining the stature of the grand company built by Gates.
You know what's funny about this article.... Back in 2012 I had the same problems with Windows Update and that is what forced me to go to a mac. I've never looked back.
I think I might be the only developer left on this forum, and maybe on the planet, who still uses Microsoft OS daily (for over 30 years). I rarely have issues with it, find it incredibly stable, and have made a lot of money using it.
Not sure why, I just felt the need to post this.
Oh, and just to make myself look even worse, Copilot in VS Code has been an amazing asset in my development.
Between using macOS at work and macOS at home, I really only had my Windows 10 PC for running games in Steam (and I don't even really game very much. I had originally built it with all new parts for Flight Simulator 2020) so its behavior was already becoming annoying whenever I went to use Windows such as the nagging and lack of consent implied with the "finish setting up your PC" window having "continue" (in a bold button) or whatever and "maybe later" (in a tiny link) as options, for example. (The linked article also pointed this out.)
So after making sure I had everything I wanted to keep copied off that computer, I was going to try out Bazzite, but something made me try out the plain old SteamOS steam deck installer first. To my surprise, it actually worked, but only because I had the exact type of system it expected:
64-bit Intel or AMD CPU. (I have AMD.)
AMD Radeon graphics.
NVMe SSD primary boot drive.
UEFI BIOS support
Even the wifi worked. Well, it didn't work the first time, so I thought it wasn't supported. So I hard wired it with Ethernet, but then I saw the Wifi was working. It's possible it updated something or maybe it just needed a reboot.
If it hadn't worked then Bazzite or something similar would have since it's designed to run Steam but with more driver support.
So my complete Windows history is: 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, XP (set to the classic GUI mode), 7, and finally 11, skipping all the others. Windows 7 was peak.
I don't understand why he thinks all users will use WSL in Windows. I have never ever touched it, and I've developed on Windows for decades (C++/C#/JS/web). It seems like trying to make Windows non-native or some semi-Linux.
I also have never touched Docker on Linux, despite having used that from RedHat 6.0 days (Fedora, Ubuntu LTS now).
Also, he missed out Shotcut as a decent video editor. It recently enabled a 10bit workflow (plus the Frei0r plugins are easy enough to write for it, if you so desire).
I've been using Linux as my main system for ~25 years, but always kept Windows installed for games. On my latest computer I've build 3 years ago, thanks to Steam with Proton, I no longer have Windows and have been happily playing Windows-only games without major issues.
It’s sort of crazy how much changed in the past few years. The only things that don’t run well under wine/proton now I feel like are online games with kernel anticheat and products like Autodesk or Adobe.
There are some commercial Applications that just won't work on wine. But virt-manager makes Qemu/kvm backing images for windows 10 or 11 easy. Freezing Windows in time is an absolute must if you do builds with vendors badly maintained development software.
Dual booting off 2 SSD is good now, and the deciding factor on most of our laptop purchases. Windows is still necessary if you do serious heavy GPU CGI rendering, CAD/CAM work, or Games.
I like Linux when everything is working well, as getting work done with the shell CLI is important for handling "Big" problems. Cloning identical Linux environments across all team workstations also greatly simplifies project support. =3
There’s a lot of odd things said in this article. Like “no more file explorer hanging”, “no more waiting for the start menu to open” - is this something that actually happens to people? Perhaps on very old hardware I could see it, but it’s not my experience at all. Lots of weird emotional and very biased parts to this article.
But it’s just gonna take off here anyway because it’s a switching to Linux article which is like offering HN users free coke.
These are real things and they happen on very good hardware. They are even acknowledge by Microsoft. The explorer issue is from waiting on for a response from network drives that the explorer thinks exists or tries to find. The start menu I'm not sure, but I get the issue from time to time and I think its because of some background process hanging the UI or something.
Of course those are things that happen to people, why would they make them up?! If anything, your reaction seems like an emotional and biased one, refusing to acknowledge the experiences of others when they conflict with your beliefs.
(and I say all this as a happy Windows user with no plans to move to Linux).
I take your criticism on board. Just because I haven’t experienced them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I only took issue with the way it was worded, like it was a universal experience rather than just one that happens to some people.
Last Thursday windows 11 forced this update on my Acer machine. It caused me BSOD: inaccessible boot device [0], so I had to reformat my machine to get Windows running again. You might think that in 2026 you shouldn't get BSOD, but here we are.
So I am now very wary of any Windows updates, including a Out of Band Update [1], which it is claimed that it resolves some issue. However, since it's never mention whether the Out of Band Update will solve mine, I'm very hesitant to update.
Windows has always been a bit of a high-maintenance OS. To keep it running well used to consume a lot of time on a weekly/monthly basis. That went down to almost nothing after I switched to Ubuntu LTS a couple of decades ago. Heard it had gotten a bit better in Winland in the recent past but it appears things are going downhill again.
I had the same story but 15 years ago. I was so happy with XP, but Vista was terrible, so I put Ubuntu on my laptop. When 7 came, it became my OS on my desktop. But then it was 8 time. Couldn't bare it. Now it's Linux everywhere, including my sister, parents, grand parents, girlfriend, brother.
Linux Mint is perfect for non technical people BTW. I heard good things about Zorin OS as well.
I might be starting down the path of introducing Linux to family members soon. I need to make sure I have enough spare time for the initial 'speed hump' of transition questions...
> I might be starting down the path of introducing Linux to family members soon. I need to make sure I have enough spare time for the initial 'speed hump' of transition questions...
The first couple of months are high touch after the switch. After that it's usually just smooth sailing for years. Much less work support-wise.
> All major browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Brave) have native Linux builds. Full support. No compromises.
Full support ? I thought that the DRM were not the same (e.g. Disney+ and Amazon Prime limited to 480p on Linux which is a scam... At least, I remember having to hack something to use the Windows version of Chrome with WINE in order to get a decent image with Amazon Prime when I got a 6-month offered subscription a few years ago)
That's correct, proper open source Linux is always limited to the weakest tiers of streaming DRM (i.e. fully software based) which usually means you only get low resolution streams. Locked-down Linux derivatives like ChromeOS and Android can support the stronger DRM tiers of course but that's not the same thing.
Had a similar experience in around ~2017 and switched over to Linux. At the time I didn't have the time to build my own and bought a mid-range System76 laptop.
Best computer decision I've ever made. I'm not a heavy gamer so the machine is still running fine. I've only had one time in the last 9 years where I had to drop everything and fix my computer vs Windows where it felt like once a year
I am thankful that so far Microsoft hasn't removed local admin capabilities of Windows, but I dread the day that happens (mainly because it remains the most consistent ways one can deny windows updates).
Because forcing updates down people's throat creates this, and boy do I hate Microsoft's insistence on doing this for drivers, where you get such fun things like Microsoft installing a different AMD GPU driver than the one that AMD gives out (this to be fair is partially to be blamed on AMD for not having just 1 versioning system) so then you have to go into safe mode, DDU, disconnect the internet, install the drivers, turn off automatic driver update in an obscure setting.
Meanwhile on Linux it's literally 1 version that exists in the kernel.
Ever since Wayland added support for changing mouse scroll speed & changing/customizing middle click behavior that is a lot more consistent, I've used Linux to daily drive, especially with immutable distros ensuring even IF an update breaks my system I can rollback.
He doesn't get into why he didn't switch to Apple. Kind of a middle ground - it's still got the maddening things about being from a corporate behemoth, but it's closer to Unix and you can run your audio software there. (I would be using Linux instead of Apple yesterday if it weren't for a single music program I can't live without).
My Windows 11 installation broke down after one of the updates. Now I get "Please reinstall Windows" warning in Windows Update settings. And some error hex code which doesn't really help. I've installed like 5 different apps on this machine and never ran any "tweaking" scripts or apps.
I don't think I ever had to reinstall Windows 2000 but here we are.
Yeah Windows 2000 had countless software test engineers, I was one of them and on my team there were 5000 of us. I stared in tech support in 97 and moved into QA and always filed bugs on behalf of the customer, sadly everyone must code and customers must test. It's just not working out but Microsoft really only cares about Corporate America and Windows running on all the main languages. It's great to have alternatives and I've moved to MacOS after using Windows since 1.0.
Thank you for your service. :D Windows 2000 will always be my favorite version. I got a free copy as a university student and it was just awesome. XP was the era where things changed for the sake of change. In Windows 2000 you could learn where absolutely everything was and it was always there for you.
I still have my install CD, though it has suffered from bit-rot and can't be read properly. :(
I think the UI was reasonable and easily understood in 2000. After that it seems links and buttons became interchangeable, and now we end up in the mess where scrollbars may or may not be visible until you try fiddling with the UI etc.
Microsoft has always been crap. It's success is contributed to hostile business practices and familiarity not quality of product. IBM and Gates partnered to have an OS installed on its computers to gain customers. With no actual OS Gates bought 86-DOS from Tim Patterson and partnered with IBM. This created a direct competitor to Apple. Then Gates partnered with all other PC manufacturers to do the same. This paved way for Microsoft to dominate Apple because they weren't tied to any specific hardware. Then came Active Directory to solidify business use. The businesses rolled with it and users learned Windows which deepened home PC use. Every app "just worked" BECAUSE of the popularity and developers directly targeted it since most people used it, not because it was a good product. Their file system NTFS is crap. Their registry is a mess. Everything about Windows is just awful.
macOS has been quite popular in the United States for a long time now (and I suspect it's not so popular in other region not due to product, but price), showing that things can exist without those "features".
I'm not even sure what macOS have for its own since I basically open either the browser or the terminal. I am vaguely aware that Finder exist when I accidentally open it maybe twice a month.
I never advocated for Windows, but I always used it because it "just worked". At a certain point, I realized - as OP had - that I was spending just as much time configuring Windows as I would be spending configuring Linux.
I've moved to Kubuntu and haven't looked back. Proton support is amazing, and Claude Code fixes the doc-diving problem that used to plague Linux. In fact, with Claude, I was able to get such a buttery smooth setup on Kubuntu - Wezterm auto-saving and restorable sessions (even with multiple windows), a working fading background switcher with history, automounting drives and vhdx images on startup - and these are all relatively simple things, but they were near-frictionless to set up and they don't break on a random Tuesday. I love it and would recommend anyone who is on Windows to reconsider.
Everyone are very unhappy with Windows 11. They kind of were OK with Windows 10. It's continuing the same old cycle. Windows 12 they will make hopefully things tolerable again..
I use Windows to play some games. I remember dual booting on 2000s -- my grub entry for Windows was called "WOW Client".
It seems to be, for most users who switch, that the driver is if they are primarily a consumer or creator. Unix systems have always been a preferred platform for some creators, but this effect seems to be multiplying as the focus for Windows become less and less creator friendly. Yeah, if you are a gamer and watch YouTube videos, then your path to least resistance is Windows; but if you are a software developer, web developer, music editor, video editor, et al... the ability to control, easily automate, and flexibility of your environment (not to mention the reduced system resources) become a huge advantage. There are reasons why MOST creators are moving away from Windows... and most consumers are becoming more and more comfortable with tablets and Chromebooks.
Many years ago before I stopped using Windows and switched back to NetBSD (I had originally used it on the VAX), I used Cygwin and later MSYS on Windows in the process of moving back to UNIX
I was not interested in graphical programs, I only wanted a UNIX shell and standard UNIX utilities
I recently received a used computer with pre-installed Windows 10 Home for personal use so I will be experimenting with it offline^1
I used Windows Services for UNIX ("SFU") on work computers back in the day to compile programs I wrote for UNIX. I am curious about using "WSL" in a similar way
NetBSD is still favorite OS but I use Linux the most
1. I can boot this computer from USB stick so I will also use it to run NetBSD from RAM
My main operating system is Linux since 2005 or so, or actually late 2004. I still use Win10 on my laptop, for various reasons; in part to test java code and ruby code on windows, in part due to elderly relatives.
Win11 really annoyed many users though. That's actually interesting, since Microsoft committed to it yet it gets harder for Microsoft to retain the people. Linux is unfortunately way too complex to really break the desktop system (and no, Wayland, GNOME, KDE, are not going to change any of that either), but if it were, Microsoft would probably have lost its de-facto monopoly already. Either way it is interesting how much people hate Win11. Microsoft really committed to driving down the cliff here.
It's funny, but I had my grandmother on Linux for about a long while before she passed... Wine managed to run the 3 Windows 9x era games games she was still playing into the 2010's (where real Windows wouldn't) and her browser/email. I wasn't even able to do that for myself. All I had to do was run updates for her every few months (because she didn't) and the one time she had a hardware failure, I'm the one who fixed it.
In the end, I'd say for most people, who aren't their own computer admins/repair anyway... Linux is probably fine. Since most people don't use more than the browser for the most part.
My other grandmother was on a docked Chromebook after the 5th time I had to clean malware off her computer, and she didn't need any windows apps anymore... she couldn't help but click on the "you might have a virus" ads.
For a while when I bought new computer (recently Intel NUC), I'd just keep the Windows installed there in case I needed it and I'd dualboot into Linux. More recently I just reflash the whole ssd with Debian and I haven't looked back. Interestingly enough I also have older Macbook Pro from 2015 that I also installed clean Debian on and it's been working amazingly well too. The only thing that would need any patching is the camera, but I don't use it. Everything else worked out of the box - keyboard backlight with nice UI controls in GNOME, LCD brightness, sound, bluetooth, etc.
> Adobe Suite: Runs via Winboat. Far from perfect (no video acceleration, laggy at times), but functional
That’s not acceptable to most professionals and one of the things holding me back on a Mac.
Adobe has so many different cross-platform layers that a solution like Proton may never be viable, practically speaking.
For Photoshop alone I remember reading that they still have some custom MacApp Pascal UI code, along with HTML/CSS/JS rendered by WebKit. And there used to be a flavor of Flash as well in mix, to name a few. Lightroom had its own custom Lua UI binding.
The only hope for fast and reliable Adobe-apps-on-Linux IMO is through a Windows VM with GPU pass-through and a focus on making that as easily and seamless as possible.
> The only hope for fast and reliable Adobe-apps-on-Linux IMO is through a Windows VM with GPU pass-through and a focus on making that as easily and seamless as possible.
I've heard of people doing this, do they?
I'm so desperate for Premiere, even 6+ years after switching OSes. Resolve won't install on Fedora (???), our all-Flatpak future cannot get here soon enough...
It’s possible but I’ve never used it as a daily driver.
One thing that scares me is that Adobe apps are already buggy on their own officially supported platforms. If I encountered a glitch, I’d always have in the back of my mind “is it because of my crazy set up or is it their fault?”
I remember reading an article many years ago about product management being like being a parent, and there being a latter point where you need to let the product go and admit it's done. Windows is clearly there, and Microsoft are doing a terrible job of it. Yes, it's less relevant than it's ever been, but it's still vastly widely deployed, earns money, and delivers other cash cows (like Office) - all they have to do is do the basic stuff to keep it going and not mess it up, but somehow that is not what's happening. Wild.
He's a musician, he's switched to Bitwig. Ok, but what about VSTs? I have a collection of instruments I can't leave behind, many are NI, so I'm currently forced to use Windows or Mac.
NI recently filed for bankruptcy! This means that the licence server will probably be shut down at some point. Take the opportunity now. :-P
I've been using Bitwig for two years now. And already produced a complete album with success. Next album is already following. :-)
Many of Bitwig's own plugins are very good, and there are now top-notch native VSTs for Linux! Alternatively, there is yabridge for running Win VSTs.
Great Linux VST manufacturers:
U-he, DDMF, Toneboosters, TAL, Bluelabs, etc.
If the license server goes down I'll just pirate them, I guess. The point is that I can't really throw aways years of investment because Windows sucks. The other important lesson is: if they have a licensing server, it's OK to pirate them from the start.
"All major browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Brave) have native Linux builds. Full support. No compromises."
This is kind of true. It depends on whether you're doing Serious Stuff on MICROS~1 365 and probably other similar services, because if you for example want to do a download of email or files or whatever from an account in the compliance portal, then they force you to use Edge on Windows. There's a browser module that can only run in that context, probably due to some deep and obscene integration between Edge for Windows and the operating system, plus they get users.
Other than that I agree with the article. Windows has been way suckier than mainstream Linux distributions for a long, long time. Yes, there might be some driver or configuration issues sometimes, but it doesn't crash, it doesn't force system upgrade reboots, and Windows still has driver issues.
Once set up a Linux system tends to just tick along for years, unless you do something weird, which is more likely under Linux because you'll probably let curiosity bring you around more than it easily can under Windows and you'll learn to do stuff that carries more risk than what a regular user can under Windows.
And the nice part is that it is very rare that you actually, terminally brick your Linux. There is almost always some forum thread that tells you the steps to bring it back up again, whereas MICROS~1 support threads commonly consist of 'hello, did you try to reboot? if it didn't work, try reinstalling'.
I switched my parents to linux during the gnome 2 days and have given them a consistent environment ever since (kept them on mate).
It is true, they could not do this themselves and sometimes my mom can test my patience, but this is the way if you can do it. (Hint: get a remote desktop with shared view working first :).
Really, the stronghold for windows is their office suite (other family require Word/Excel for work), enterprise domain integration (work to home pc familiarity), and, to a weaker extent, gaming. Gaming is why I still keep an install of windows on my pc.
The only tools pinning me to Windows were photo editing apps (Capture One, Adobe), and some music apps (Reason, a whole bunch of other apps) that I barely used. Cut over to Debian about 4 years ago when my laptop started having thermal issues and Covid encouraged me to buy a tower desktop machine. Haven't looked back, it's been so much more productive. The strange and toxic-to-me design choices in the Win11 UI helped motivate the rapid transition.
The only thing that's caused any issue is power management, I'm fairly sure it's not optimal, but it's still better than Win11. That's purely down to lack of effort on my part, and basically setting it for max performance because it's not important to me for a desktop machine. Everything (and I mean everything - sound, video, wifi, bluetooth) else is 100% out of the box working on mid-range commodity hardware, albeit with excessive RAM for my needs. Some of it is a bit clumsy looking in places, but it did look weird on Windows too with some of the apps.
When I did have trouble, it was not like I could get support from Microsoft as the community forum is a joke, but with Linux at least I stand a fighting chance of working around any potential problems.
Is there anything on Windows I miss? No.
Is there anything on Mac that I miss? Yes, there's a few things that I like about MacOS (pre-glass) but I have a MacBook Air for those which is good for occasional use but not as a daily driver.
FYI: latest Photoshop should work on Wine as of this week, but of course that situation may be too subject to change for someone's main source of income.
It's still not quite there yet, for me. A lot of older games (which I'm a big fan of) won't run well or at all - and support for Nvidia is still not great.
If I could get within even 10% of the performance I get on Windows, and know I could safely choose to play some old 2000's game or something that just released just fine, I really wouldn't mind. But it feels like a roulette wheel and some important game I wanted to play just may not work, or may run terribly.
My wife was complaining about her Windows 11 laptop crashing. I tried everything and even did fresh installs. Still crashing (and honestly pretty slow). I gave up on Windows and installed Ubuntu and Chromium for her. She can instagram, facebook, save her memes, and its all fast. No crashes. She's a happy camper now. I think a lot of (even) non technical people would like Linux a lot more than they realize if they gave it a shot.
>Also, is it weird that I still remember the specs of my first computer, 22 years later?
Only weird because you were only 6 years old. My first computer was an IBM XT clone, with the full 640k of RAM, a 30 MB harddrive, 5 1/4" floppy drive, Hercules graphics and the amber-colored screen. Also had the turbo button that took it from 4.77 MHz to 10 MHz. Ran DOS v3.3 for a while but eventually upgraded to v5.0.
Another very important feature which does not get mentioned enough is Ubuntu launching Ubuntu Pro in 2022 which has an ordinary-user-affordable support option where $150 a year gets you what they call "full support" with a four hour ticket response time on weekdays. My time is way too valuable to deal with the driver problems Linux always has, community support is often best described as "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" -- I once had a problem with a peripheral and people directed me to the Arch Wiki page that I wrote. I stopped using Linux as my main eight years ago and have been on W10/WSL since. I am considering Linux main in May when I get my new laptop if there's commercial support backing me up. I reached out to them with my list of current hardware and they didn't reply yet :( which doesn't bode well.
Example: Thunderbolt networking. Is there a kernel module for it? Yes. Is there experience with it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That is exactly why I ditched Microsoft for Mac thirty years ago. I’ve never looked back or regretted leaving MSFT during my "formative" years; in fact, I’m glad I did. That said, it’s great to see Linux stay the course and build a real alternative for PC users.
I’ve always wanted to try running Linux on one of my Macs, but I never seem to find the time to actually explore it. One of these days...
Past week I got to know about InputActions [0] so I installed Kubuntu 25.10 to test it, and it is very promising. Linux never had a proper mouse gesture support, and I won't go into details, but this was one of the three dealbreakers for me. The other one was a Windows-only app which ran so sluggishly on all previous tests I've made over the years, but with Wine 11 the app is just as good and fast as on Windows. Though I first need to populate the registry with an icon set. But now with AI this can be easily automated (letting it write a script I then run). The third is some custom electron-based launcher which is heavily Windows-customized, which I will need to migrate to Linux, but also this should be easy with AI.
For the first time I feel like there is a real path for me to switch to Linux, and it's about time!
In all honesty, it was easy for me to switch to Linux because I was always more interested in the computer itself rather than what useful things I could do with it, so I actually never missed a particular application. I also was more interested in making a game run in Wine with maximum effort rather than actually playing it (I did play countless hours of World of Warcraft though...)
>"If you're always finding the next reason not to switch, you're not looking for solutions, you're looking for excuses to stay complacent."
No, my friend. It is not the reason. I have over 50 apps installed, many of which are corporate applications, such as Teams and other Microsoft products. VMwaresing VMWare and WSL foLinux distributionsnux distros. The other things that Linux is missing are ShareX (has flameshot I know), no WhatsApp (PWA might work, but it is a hack). Google Drive that I use to share my KeePass databases (no GDrive on Linux afaik). And gaming is not 100% with linux becuase of anti-cheat (author mentions it).
The only thing stopping me from switching to Linux entirely is that I must find a way to port all of these without compromises. Reinstalling Windows is one thing; changing OS types is another. We all want to be Mr. Robots, but reality is different. It is like moving to a new house. Exciting but sucks.
I tried to make this shift, but managed to somehow brick Linux Mint, so now I'm back on Windows for now...
I was already not very impressed when I attempted to okay a video file, and VLC told me I didn't have the right codec installed, and I had to run a shell command to get the codec... I have to open a shell to watch a common video file?
But then while attempting to install some packages to install Steam (which I also needed shell commands for...), I updated some kernel package, as instructed, rebooted my machine, and now Mint just sits there doing nothing right after I get through the bootloader. Can't seem to run any commands to recover either.
Bricking Mint is annoying, but I was much more astonished that I saw so many people hold up Mint as this beacon of user friendly Linux distros, but to do even the most basic things, I had to start running commands on the shell. That is NOT user friendly. I'll probably try again soon, but I'm pretty disappointed in my first experience.
No such thing as brick when you have a “live drive” available. Reinstall and be up again in a half hour.
The codec issues are caused by the companies that make them, not a free operating system. Next time download an open codec movie or install from the “store” GUI.
You're slightly missing the point. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter to me, the end user, whose fault it is that my OS doesn't have codecs.
The problem is that when doing an extremely basic operation that works on every system I've used before, it doesn't work, and the most readily available advice on how to resolve the issue tells me to run commands. Regardless of the reasons why it is that way, it just simply isn't user friendly.
Everyone has to balance how much pain they get on Windows from the restarts, slowness, updates, etc versus how much pain they get from occasionally having to run some command in terminal window. I get your points about there being rough edges - the good thing is that Linux is a very good system for fixing Linux issues. Everything is tailored for that :)
Learning the basics of linux can be very powerful and now with AIs you can get essentially anything done just by asking the AI to give you the right commands. Linux is friendlier to be fixed by AI suggestions, which I think will actually be the big difference this year.
And to be fair, I'm not a fan of Linux Mint. I much more prefer Debian or Fedora with clean GNOME.
There are tradeoffs in life, not perfection.
Bondage vs. convenience, your choice.
Having to install codecs once every few years is a tiny inconvenience compared to the dystopia offered elsewhere.
I also run commands on Win and Mac all the time to fix things. For example Windows wastes tens of gigabytes of space unless you run a couple of inscrutable commands to free it.
Let me be clear, I am making only one very specific argument: Linux Mint is not as user friendly as people say. I'm not putting any blame on anyone for it not being user friendly, I am not saying that Mint must be a perfect OS replacement, I'm not saying that it makes Mint a bad OS, etc.. I'm only saying that it's not that user friendly, despite what many people say.
Yes, and I’m saying none of them are, though occasionally it’s luck of the draw. The genius bar exists for a reason, and not only for broken hardware. If you paid for a Linux expert to help it would be similarly easy.
Currently using https://getaurora.dev which is basically fedora + kde but curated by people that actually care. So codecs are preinstalled, and other sensible defaults out of the box which makes sense as its in the same family as bazzite (without the gaming focus).
I have always used Linux personally, only work made me use Windows and Mac (controlled endpoints) for the past 20 years. For 4 years I have my own company, 100% Linux.
I know that some things are not as nice on Linux (ie you need to do MS365 in a browser for example, and MS365 files from a NAS in OnlyOffice is not great, etc). But other than that, I just love living in Gnome. What more do you need that just a clean desktop with some tiling, some virtual desktops, a clock, battery indicator and windows with your stuff? I don't even know. I like that I can set up Linux in 10 min.
I recently set up a Windows 11 machine for a neighbor, it took so long! And it offered dozens of things I didn't want, to the point that I began feeling a bit nervous towards my neighbor (no you don't need that, no not that, no that's just tracking, no why would you want your desktop in the cloud?). Then when finished... it wasn't finished, I need printer drivers, an HP package with drivers and stuff for the BIOS etc etc etc. So much time.
Every company I’ve worked at has used Google Docs anyway so the experience for me is the same on Linux. What’s so appealing about the classic Office suite?
Well, it's mostly annoying if people store office docs on some samba share instead of in SharePoint/Teams. Also Teams has issues on Firefox, and sometimes also in Chromium. But overall works well enough (even with my AirPods on Linux). Things like drawing in PowerPoint in the Browser have become significantly better over the last year, before that I avoided it like the plaque. Whats missing in MS365 online is numbered captions for figures (unforgivable!), or reference management. That just really annoying if people use those features. Also, I worked in an org still on Office 2019 but mixed it with MS365, that also lead to lot of pain. It's papercuts mostly, nothing fatal.
I finally installed Windows 11 last year so I could use Wifi 6E. Other than that, it is certainly a downgrade. With some debloating and ExplorerPatcher, its mostly the same as Windows 10 now, but I'm praying that an update wont brick my install. Thankfully the latest forced feature update didn't affect me.
The two things I find unacceptable are no local accounts and non consensual reboots. The latter may need legislation. They don’t even notify you that it happened. They try to restart apps and put things back the way they were but you can still tell that your house was broken into by the missing data that wasn’t saved.
Honestly Linux has been so much easier to use since Claude / codex came out. Now I don't need to remember esoteric commands or scroll old forums to fix issues, Claude does it all for me.
Been using ubuntu + regolith as my daily driver for over a year now and haven't needed to use windows for anything. Almost all games all work well on Linux now too.
One of the things I like most about CachyOS is that the configuration is all just in text files, one of the things I like least is that I am never quite sure whether to modify the systemd unit settings that are usually in /usr/lib somewhere, the app settings in /etc or the personal configs in ~/.config. For packages that I am unfamiliar with, I usually end up trying all three locations until I notice that my changes seem to stick.
The installer also completely broke the Windows partition that came with the workstation even though I was planning on dual booting, but oh well, no great loss there.
Other than that, there are some small conveniences and apps that I miss from MacOS (the mac calendar and mail apps are just so nice!) but the Niri window manager is just so amazing that at this point I don't think there's anything that could make me switch back.
I was a big fan of windows and I am still currently using it but recently, I am getting weird problems, crashes, frozen laptop etc. So right now, after 23 years later, I decided to switch MacOS. I've used it before but couldn't adapt because I was efficiently using windows with no-alternatives tools in MacOS. But anymore, Windows is no longer usable, it's unbearable.
There was a post here a while back saying that Microsoft will eventually switch to Linux instead of maintaining Windows. Given all the negativity around Windows this seems more and more likely (I haven’t used Windows myself for over 20 years so I have no idea what its like now. Last time I used it, it was XP)
If Microsoft vibe codes a Linux distro and calls it Windows 360 Copilot, I’m on board with the conspiracy theory that the Hadron Collider broke reality
Except the problem is their UX more than the kernel itself. I don't see them keeping Gnome or KDE as a desktop UI even if they did fully adopt Linux for desktop usage.
MS should really just buckle down, finish simplifying the UI and make it consistent again... the last time it was mostly consistent was Windows 7, and even then.
I'm willing to bet that System76 gets COSMIC to the level that Win7 reached faster than MS can turn anything around in terms of Windows at this point.
So happy to see so many new Linux users as a long time user and developer for the platform. I want to welcome anyone and PLEASE feel free to use AI to make awesome stuff or solve problems. The FOSS community is still adapting to the new influx of developers and tools, vibe coders, etc.
Be cautious with running commands or making package changes based on suggestions from AI tools. Ask clarifying questions and it may realize doing so would either break your system or be attempting to vastly modify it.
My advice is get Docker installed and do most of your stuff in there. If you mess up and expose a Postgres container it will get hacked, but not escape the container, whereas if you install Postgres as a system package and make that same mistake you will be fully owned.
> I installed CachyOS, a performance-focused Arch-based distribution
Ooph. It's frustrating to see the community starting (again) to get purchase in public mind share at exactly the moment when it's least prepared to accept new users.
The Linux desktop right now is a wreck. EVERYONE has their own distro, EVERYONE has their own opinions and customizations, and so everyone is being pulled in like 72 different directions when they show up with search terms for "How do I install Linux?"
For a while, 15-ish years ago, the answer was "Just Install Ubuntu". And that was great! No one was shocked. Those of us with nerd proclivities and strong opinions knew how to install what we wanted instead. But everyone else just pulled from Canonical, a reasonably big and reasonably funded organization with the bandwidth to handle that kind of support.
I totally get that. But I read about it, and that custom kernel with the BORE scheduler really caught my eye, especially for music & gaming.
I know a lot of people suffer from shiny object syndrome, and to some extent I do too (realistically something like Ubuntu or Fedora would have served me well), but it is what it is.
It's not anything about CachyOS in particular, frankly I don't know it and I'm sure it's fine. It's that the culture of "I'll grab this known-good base and tweak it, then advertise it to the world as the next best thing" is just toxic for Regular People wanting to learn about stuff.
Imagine if you were trying to, I dunno, introduce your friend to Minecraft. And instead of the base game someone handed you a menu of crazy modlists. Is that representative of the feature set you think they're looking for in a casual game?
People coming to Linux are coming from a culture of "I've used MacOS or Windows for years and know how it works, where's the browser?". They're very much NOT looking for experimental kernel scheduler implementations!
There are at least a dozen very stable and reliable distros with decades of history and support in addition to the cool new “hey guys I made a OS!” types.
> There are at least a dozen very stable and reliable distros
Exactly. "WTF?! There are a dozen distributions?!" Users love customization and choice when they understand it. No one wants to be confused. The Linux desktop world is a confusing mess right now.
Also note that the distinction between "very stable and reliable" and "hey guys I made a OS!" is only obvious to people who know how the distro is put together.
But that's the point. Choice and customization. It's the natural result of FOSS and the as-designed modularity of the Linux ecosystem.
Exploring popular options and finding what works for you is easier than it has ever been, and fun too. The difference between Linux today and the Linux of old is that for most setups, all the pieces you choose can fit together nicely and "just work." Despite all the different flavors and variations and distributions and desktop environments and window managers and the like, pretty much every popular distro uses a recent or near recent version of the monolithic Linux kernel + system-d, so all the important stuff is more or less the same (with tweaks here or there.)
I made the same switch but all linux always feels slightly jank. I think Macos is the best premium decoupling from Winblows, but that comes with its own ecosystem lock in. I use all three equally daily and it just drives me insane. Lots of games on Windows ONLY work on windows due to anti cheat. Ie BattleField 6.... MacOs Gaming is non existent and any attempt with say wine/parallels or whatever brings you back to windows.... Linux / PopOS / Cosmic is so close to being there but the gaming restrictions takes you back to Windows.. I tried the whole WSL2 but lots of apps need so much tuning to work properly.. Ie android studio needs to be specially configured to use the WSL2 paths and it gets broken fast.
Over the years I feel they're all janky in different ways. That being said, especially lately the Windows and MacOS UX changes are getting less thoughtful and the design vs usability scale is going all the way to the design end.
Which would almost be unfortunate, but Battlefield 6 is the same slop as 2042 with a fanservice texture pack on top. You can play BF4, BF2, Bad Company, Arma 2/3/Reforger, and even DCS World without issue on Linux - why are you spending $70 to install a rootkit for a game you'll put 20 hours into, tops?
Giving up Windows pushed me to play better games and stay off the unhealthy AAA release cycle that has strangled innovation for years. If I was still playing Rainbow Six Siege then I wouldn't know how to cold-start an F-16 blk. 50.
I mean next on list is Escape From Tarkov.. the list goes on. its more than just Battlefield 6, theres tons of games that require a anti cheat solution for linux..
Escape From Tarkov doesn't have functional anticheat on Windows. Most people either play EFT against bots (which is a $10 DLC) or modded SPT (which is free and works on Linux). Even livestreamers are struggling to play a match without cheaters post 1.0 release, you might as well play Anomaly EFP.
There's definitely a list of games that don't work; they're usually outnumbered 10:1 by better titles. I haven't booted into Windows for 7 years, there's just not many new releases worth the effort.
I really wish linux had a decent answer for DRM-protected VST plugins. Yes you can run stuff in WINE but I need to be able to use iLok and the bullshit DRM systems for about a dozen other publishers.
I am so glad that gaming on linux is viable. I wish my music production workflows were too.
Just saw a video on YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwt9AiItqU - starts at 3:25) that talked about the windows experience in the present day and I totally forgot about booting up and magically having software appear I never asked for due to some partnerships Microsoft made. I've been on Mac for 16 years/iPhone for 10 years and have never looked back. The most annoying thing about Apple is when the OS updates and suddenly you have a different experience like liquid glass. But like all things I usually get used to it after about a week and most of the times I see the benefits (in this case, even more screen real estate).
I'm an Apple guy through and through, but I am in Georgia Techs OMSCS program. For some of the classes, you need to use a VM that doesn't play nicely with Apple Silicon. So I went over to Microcenter and picked up a cheap PC with Windows. I loathe using it, even if I am in the VM the whole time. I'm amazed at the amount of ads that pop up and for a while, sound just didn't work. Like not with headphones or just out of the normal speakers until eventually a random update fixed it. I get not wanting to be in the Apple ecosystem, but at this point in time I don't know why you would want Windows and not go for Linux.
I think Windows 11 would have had much more consumer buy-in in the early days if they would have at least extended non-OEM support back to the Skylake generation, if not further, which it looks like it would have be easy to do, since it ran just fine on much older machines. I didn't object to them making TPM 2.0 mandatory for new OEM builds, just to the making it mandatory for people wanting to upgrade to it.
Of course, then the ads and other broken-ness got a lot worse. But people might put up with that more if they had upgraded to Windows 11 years ago instead of just looking at doing it now that Windows 10 support has ended.
I'm not against someone's preferences, but this looks like an anecdotal story. Windows, as much as it's hated here, still works fine for the vast majority of people. What's more, you have higher risk of having problems when running Linux.
There's an aphorism that I like to use every time someone tells me that Windows is the easy choice: Windows makes accomplishing easy tasks easy, and hard tasks impossible.
To this day and for the past 20 years, every time I go back to my parents' house, it's Windows tech support time. Every time, I have to go through the same routine of cleaning up all sorts of crap that make their computer slow to a crawl, even when I purposely created non privileged accounts for them. Every time, the same ritual: diagnose why the printer stopped working, why apps look pixelated, why some sites stopped working.
So, it works for my parents, and possibly works for the vast majority of people, because it has created this ecosystem where these users either depend on folks like me, or have to pay up at the repair shop. And somehow, something as simple as not breaking a critical component during an update, or prevent users from installing harmful stuff, has not been addressed properly. And that's without mentioning what Microsoft does that's very much anti-consumer, like stuffing the consumer versions of the OS with ads.
Kind of interesting after using Manjaro recently, I had stayed away from Ubuntu for a while and started researching to see if it had gotten any better. I found a bunch of blog and reddit posts about how Linux sucks so bad and how much superior Windows and MacOS are.
Only to see this article today. lol
I guess at this point, whatever works for you and your situation is what you should use and ignore all the static. I use Linux for the majority of my dev work, but have the inability to move off Adobe products for the photo and video processing work I do. Something I've found that Linux doesn't compete very well with MS and Apple. I would love to finally get off of one or the other, but I have one foot in each because they both excel in different areas.
I’m kind of curious why Adobe hasn’t gone all-in on Linux by now. IIRC Adobe apps were built on cross-platform tooling like Java (InDesign) and AIR (all the CS UI, and then the underpinnings in C++).
I guess Adobe doesn't exactly have much to win by Windows failing, but their inaction does mean the open source alternatives will continue to get better, and that will hurt them.
Every few years someone posts the same thing in the Adobe forums which then piss off the moderators and Adobe "experts". They continue to say the same thing which makes zero sense.
I'm paraphrasing here but its something along the lines of:
"Linux users are open source people and expect everything for free. They'll never pay for our products, so we see no need to port them for Linux users because so few of them would be willing to pay for our products."
A lot of other comments are cheeky ones like, "Adobe is already on a Linux OS, its called MacOS." - rolls eyes-
And you are correct, the OSS alternatives are getting better and closing the gap, but they're just not there yet - but I hold out hope they will be one day.
2. Linux is already to the point of giving you about as many esoteric errors as Windows or macOS will.
People don't switch either because they are comfortable where they are and don't want to put forth the effort of changing their OS, or they are afraid of outdated criticism of Linux Desktops being error-filled nightmares.
My feeling is that I consistently find on-point solutions for my Linux problems with a quick search. However if my Windows install gets in trouble my search will yield some DISM.exe invocation which doesn't help at all. A bit anecdotal, but this is my experience. I've always been able to fix my Linux installs.
1. It is. It makes me more likely to use Linux, and I'm not that far from the average. On Reddit r/gaming I've seen people who literally made the step and say exactly this "I installed Linux and when I can't figure something out I ask an LLM and it has done a great job so far".
It's happening right now. Maybe you're so opposed to the concept that you hate to imagine it, but it's the reality.
> or they are afraid of outdated criticism of Linux Desktops being error-filled nightmares
Your concept of people installing Linux is behind because even just over the last 12 months things have changed a lot.
I also think LLMs are well suited to find niche strange bugs way quicker. User posts esoteric error on the issues page. LLM with proper context may converge quickly, allowing the programmer to implement a fix.
Windows UI has also gotten progressively more ugly, buggy and laggy. From a cursory glance, Win 11 looks a lot cleaner than Win 10/8/7, but just opening the Start Menu is a chore. Rather than fix the underlying issue, Microsoft started pre-rendering the File Explorer in memory to improve launch times. It might've started with letting go of their QA team, but the engineering culture there seems completely broken and clueless.
I'm currently running Fedora on my gaming laptop, and while I do suffer some loss in FPS, it is relatively close to Windows and seems to be getting better.
For literally decades we've hoped that Linux will get like Windows in some crucial areas like sleep and hibernations support for laptops, supported first-party drivers, correct and reliable multi-monitor setups, games, etc. Never ever could I imagine that Linux parity, which I'd like to argue is closer than ever before, would be reached by Windows getting worse in exactly those areas we, the Linux freaks, got told to get Windows for -- sleep not working, graphics drivers bringing whole systems down, incoherent configuration etc. Only games got better and we have to thank Valve for that.
I just hope that more people are forced into this! I understand that the transition, learning path can be daunting but once someone's head gets the mindset on a Unix OS there is basically no turning back.
I understand the frustration when things don’t just work. Also I find it kind of funny when people act like Linux just solved all their problems, despite recurring driver and dependency issues, compatibility problems, etc. These all get hand-waved somehow because it’s not Linux’s “fault” I suppose? Good for the author but the opportunity cost of moving to Linux alone is prohibitive based on the comments I see here, my own experience notwithstanding…
> despite recurring driver and dependency issues, compatibility problems, etc
Citation needed.
Uncited, I would posit that those complaints haven't really been a thing for at least a couple of decades. And any issues have been far less than in Winland :)
For me I made the switch in 1998 when Windows Me was so terrible it was unusble. I went to CompUSA and found this cool box of cd roms with a lizard logo - suse linux and I was done with MS forever (except at work).
I always like to chime in on these things that I've been a delighted Arch user for about a year now, for similar reasons. Took a lot of setup, but it's dialed now and just works. My computer belongs to me again for the first time in years.
I should really do more to evangelize. It's not ok to use an OS monopoly to degrade and squeeze your users' often primary career and creative tool to your own short term ends, making their lives worse and worse. And it's such a delight to get out from under.
Not sure the situation for normies currently, but for power users, definitely dual boot and give it a try.
Still to this day I don't understand how people manage to do software development on a Windows PC. I started with my first secondhand MacBook which was one before the unibody, and then upgraded to unibody and never have left ever. The only reason I was forced to use Windows was for clients that didn't have support for MacOS or Linux. The only thing I need Windows for is rootkit enabled games... which pains me, otherwise I'd have Linux on my desktop
My main machines have been running Linux for years now, but there are still some things that are really bothering me. For one, I think dealing with virtual machines are still somewhat painful on Linux. VM managers continue to be clunky (I believe KDE is working on a new one), and GPU acceleration, let alone partitioning, isn’t really a thing for Windows guests which is something that works out of the box on WSL. Another frustrating part is the lack of a proper alternative to Windows Hello that allows you to set up passkeys using TPMs.
Speaking of "Content Creation", I'd also like to add the Affinity Suite. I don't particularly like it after being bought by Canva, but it works almost flawlessly on Linux.
I switched back in 2022 to Ubuntu 20. I barely knew JavaScript at the time. I had zero problems doing so. Maybe my use case is narrow enough--I just use it for dev work and web browsing--but it was the least daunting process ever. Everything worked out of the box basically. Learning bash and unix changed my life. I don't understand how one could complain about Linux unless they've never even tried it
That said, I threw NetBSD on a P4 tower and it took me half a day just to get a GUI and an internet connection. Was kind of fun,though.
Give it a few more years and Linux will complete its inevitable evolution into Microsoft, same consolidation, same gatekeeping, just with better slogans and a smug sense of moral superiority.
thanks for the clarification on how the kernel development works.
do you mind expanding on what is the benefit for companies like Microsoft, Google, IBM, Red Hat, Meta, Oracle, SUSE, Canonical, Amazon, Nvidia, AMD, Qualcom, Samsumg, Broadcom, Cisco, arm to spend an enormous amount of capital, both employing individuals to work full time on the kernel and making donations to cncf/linux foundation?
Certainly all of the big players behind linux have our best interest in mind and certainly NONE of this companies have some history of making decisions in detriment of consumer agency and freedom.
I would love to hear more about how linux is driven by passion and generosity if you don`t mind, please share!
I fail to see your point. Kernel development by the aforementioned big players benefits everyone and is all done in the open. Hence, "open source". In fact they use a public mailing list to submit patches.
All of the patches are auditable. If I don't want a patch, I can *trivially* omit it from my kernel before compiling.
How exactly are open source kernel modules and drivers affecting my freedom?
Yeah, you don't really understand what "Linux" is. It isn't one thing, you can't force anything into "Linux" because there are so many distros to choose from. With Windows that isn't possible - there's either Windows, or something else (or an old version of Windows).
> Basic operations are so much faster on Linux. Opening directories,
The fact that "opening directories" is something specifically mentioned as a point of difference hints to me that there is something terribly wrong in Microsoft / Windows -land.
If "opening directories" isn't a solved problem in any Operating System that's no longer in beta, never mind one that's been around for 30-odd years, there's something rotten in the foundations.
This seems to historically have been a pattern. There was a period where Windows Vista was forced on everyone and downgrading to Windows XP until Vista was better was forbidden.
Lots of people jumped to Mac or Linux at that time. There's article floating around that the Macbook Pro ironically was the best laptop to run Windows XP on via dual boot because it was so intel.
The whole upgrade to Windows 11 was forced on me by Microsoft, basically using trickery. I opened windows update and it said there were some updates… Did not make it clear at all that it would be taking my system from Windows 10 to 11. I thought it was just installing security updates. I would’ve had to change it anyway when 10 support ended, but I still had about four months and wanted to wait.
My only issue is that i am not a developer, I am heavily reliant on Excel, i know it inside and out and just not sure whether OpenOffice supports excel files. In the past it barely did.
There are many features of Excel that LibreOffice Calc doesn't support. Most importantly: structured references, VBA, PowerQuery. Not to mention its UI is very laggy even on powerful machines.
For real financial/business work, Calc is just not a serious player.
I have a spreadsheet I've been using since 2017 to track all my spending and savings accounts on a weekly basis, plus some trend analytics, plus some simple graphs on multiple sheets. A few hundred rows and columns, both entered and calculated values (simple formulas, nothing fancy). Haven't noticed any slowness. When I have some data to look at (like .csv or even .xlsx), I always use Calc. I work with Excel at work all the time, it might be faster on larger data sets, but Libre's Calc is more than enough for many use cases.
I have been using Linux as a desktop operating system for what I believe is almost two decades. Recently(?) I see distro named like CashyOS and Bazzite being thrown around. Am I missing out on something?
There are many really good ones these days that will have a much better experience than windows. I’ve used Ubuntu, Pop, Mint and Fedora workstation in the last 5 years and all worked great. Personally Mint Cinnamon had the least issues so I tend to run that on my machines now.
Once SteamOS becomes generally available I’ll switch to that. It’s incredibly polished on Steam Deck
If you don't want the "hassle" of flag optimization when compiling binaries, CachyOS is basically Arch but with optimized binaries. Otherwise, Gentoo all the way, you just need a good machine.
I want to switch to Linux for my EOL Windows 10 originally-built-for-gaming rig. It was “new” in 2016, so I hold out hope that there will be few compatibility issues. My biggest concerns are being able to play my library of steam games on it. Overall the problems I have are that last time I tried to put Linux on that machine I tried a dual boot system, and at the time UEFI did not play well with dual booting. I don’t know if it’s gotten better, but as of now I wouldn’t be dual booting anyway so conceivably it wouldn’t be an issue.
I doubt the dual boot issue was due to UEFI. It's more likely, Windows was clobbering over GRUB and overwriting your bootloader, as it likes to do. Windows really wants to be the only OS on your drive.
Most reliable way I've ran dual boot systems is to have each OS on it's own separate drive, and then choose with the UEFI boot menu which one to boot instead of choosing in GRUB off a single drive.
As for games, plug them into protondb (https://www.protondb.com) to see compatibility & read through the comments
This tends to be better overall anyway, if you are really looking to switch. Dual booting is enough of a hassle that I've always ended up staying in whatever OS I felt required me to think I needed to dual boot, and the other aspirational OS gets forgotten.
Going all-in requires that you figure out new workflows, find new software, or in some cases change what you use the computer for and accept it.
I tried building a gaming PC, but I hated PC gaming. It felt like it was half sys admin work, half gaming... if the sys admin work went well that day. I dual booted it for a while, then ran straight Linux on it, and eventually sold it. I liked the idea of one box that did everything, but the reality of it wasn't so great. I now have computers I don't care about gaming on, and have consoles that require 0 effort and let me play games when I feel like playing games.
I bounced back and forth for a few years. Now? Not even dual boot, not even a VM. Maybe Linux did not get better than Windows, opinions differ. However, Windows certainly has gotten worse than Linux.
I only need Windows for a few programs, mostly licensed EDA programs that [dumb] companies didn't manage to port to Linux. Most engineers who use EDA tools are into linux so having to run a few things on Windows is a pain. The 'A' in EDA stands for automation and Windows is not the OS for that.
I installed a standalone WIN10, then enabled the TPM and installed WIN11. Seems pretty solid but I had to guard against MSFT repeatedly trying to lead me into servitude.
There is a negative Moore's law for software, valid when the one for hardware stopped: with constant CPU speed, the speed of software decreases as its version increments.
You've sold me. Does anyone have a lightweight guide or something of a no-nonsense tutorial on how to do this without causing an even bigger headache than using windows?
Linux Mint is nice, but it's been a few years since I installed it. Back in 2018ish we had a lot of machines with old dual cores and 2-4GB of RAM that chugged on Windows. But after installing Linux Mint, they were given new life and ran very well.
I have been daily driving Ubuntu Cinnamon at work for ~3 years and it works pretty well. Some minor bugs here and there, but I can't imagine going back to Windows for a work machine.
One of my favorite recent KDE features: Press Meta+t to design a custom window layout, and later hold Shift while you drag a window to place it in a slot in that layout.
Ah 3d is fine with Maya and all the real VFX running on Linux. And we haven't had problems with game dev for years on Linux. Agree otherwise good to see another join.
Sort of funny that Nadella quotes Steve Jobs from 35 years ago with the "bicycles for the mind" quip. Given enough time, MSFT's marketing will eventually catch up with NeXT's marketing.
It's bad it really is, I got fed up and rolled back to windows 10 when I tried downloading a file and the whole UI locked up until the file finished. On my own personal high performance desktop with tons of memory, cpus, etc etc. Never saw this in Windows 10. Certainly never saw it in modern Linux.
I was running win11 up until three weeks ago. Just a gaming rig, a steam launcher. A used behemoth tower I got for a song via CL. Installed Bazzite and have been incredibly impressed.
Also ty to the author for the link to the nvidia sleep fix. That’s been the only hiccup, and it sounds like I’ll have it sorted before bedtime.
Ok so Arch apparently has an install script that does everything[0]. I tried it the other day and it's pretty flawless, albeit terminal-based so not for everyone I guess.
Pacman is _amazing_. Apt broke dependencies for me every few months & a major version Ubuntu upgrade was always a reformat. Plus, obviously, the Arch wiki is something else. I would go as far as to say you'll have an overall better Linux experience on Arch than Ubuntu and friends, even as a beginner.
Possibly. If the installer happy path fails (which has happened to me), Arch is "here's root shell, figure it out", Ubuntu is slightly more user-friendly :)
I will say Arch wiki is amazing, even if you're not using it. I'm on Debian nowadays and still often refer it for random obscure hardware setup details.
I started with Slackware Linux—something arguably even more “hard-core” than Arch.
What mattered most at the beginning was good installation documentation, and both Arch and Slackware delivered on that front. Slackware, however, had an additional appeal: it was intentionally simple, largely because it was created and maintained by a single person at the time. That simplicity made it feel conceivable that the system could be fundamentally understood by a single human mind.
Whether a newcomer appreciates the Slackware/Arch approach depends heavily on learning style and goals. You can click through a GUI installer and end up with a working distro, but then what? From a beginner’s perspective, you’ve just installed something somehow—and it looks like a crippled Windows machine with fewer buttons.
Starting with Slackware gave me a completely different starting reference point. Installing the system piece by piece was genuinely exciting, because every step involved learning what each component was and how it fit into the whole. The realization that Linux is essentially a set of Lego bricks—and that I might actually master the entire structure, or even build my own pieces—was deeply motivating.
That mindset was strongly shaped by how Slackware and similar distros present themselves. Even the lack of automatic dependency management acted as an early nudge toward thinking seriously about complexity, trade-offs, and minimalism, which stayed with me forever.
Yeah, likely not. There are all kinds of shaes of gray in between that and windows style OS instalation, though.
Arch Linux just sits somewhere in the middle, where you don't build anything, but you get a guided tour of partitioning and formatting a disk, installing some set of packages and setting up a bootloader, from a fairly rich adn comfortable command line environment of a USB live distro.
Everyone says this but I have only ever used arch. Wiped windows and started with Manjaro. No VM to test straight to bare metal. I learned how Linux worked and then installed the base arch distro. If you can read a wiki, you can use arch. It's not rocket science. All the available arch flavored distros make it even easier today. I tried debian once and found it even more cumbersome. Is it apt or apt-get? is it install or update? Never stuck around to find out.
I used https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat on a family member's new Win11 install and it actually works reasonably snappy. I wouldn't be want to caught dead with it, but I couldn't convince this one to go for macOS.
I’ve asked before but the answer keeps changing before I get around to implementing it:
My kid wants to upgrade their PC from Windows 11 to Linux. They have a recent-ish Nvidia card. I’m very technical: I don’t mind doing whatever arcane thing needs done. They are not, yet.
I haven’t run Linux on my desktop in a decade and I’m completely out of date here. What should I steer my kid toward to run recent games?
Depends on the games. If your kid wants to play anything with kernel level anticheat, it will not work on Linux, period - these anticheats don't support Linux, and either prevent the game from running altogether or disable certain online modes.
Otherwise, CachyOS is extremely popular these days, and I suppose a valid choice.
if theyre not that technical i would say just stick with something simple like zorinOS, which is ubuntu based so there is a bigger community behind it if they run into issues. zorin has an option to install nvidia drivers during the initial setup. popOS would be another option along the same lines
I switched after running basic dev tools became genuinely unusable (randomly freezing for minutes, start menu just didn't work, crashes all the time) despite being on good, new hardware.
I never wanted to switch before because I just wanted an OS that worked, didn't require babysitting, and was compatible with apps. But clearly, Windows has dropped the ball on this.
For me the only reason to keep windows 11 is Clip Studio Paint doesn't work yet in Linux...
I use it mostly on my Android tablet BUT I want to have an alternative in case something is easier on a computer
> my first computer was a Windows 98 machine, with an Athlon XP 1900+ (Palomino core)
Off topic, anyone else think Windows 98 is too old for this machine? At a similar era I built an athlon t-bird 1.0GHz, I was mostly using Linux by then but if I did Windows then it would have been Win2k, maybe by the time of Athlon "XP", Windows XP would have been a thing too.
I'm not sure that "multi-compose" chrome bug is a windows-only thing though. I use chrome on Linux (slackware) with an nvidia card, and I get that issue all the time if I try to open more than one chrome WINDOW. Multiple tabs are ok, and SOMETIMES multiple windows are ok, but more often than not, I can only have one chrome window.
I think I'm pretty much there and just haven't made the switch yet. I'm going to give Mint a shot on my old PC soon and if its a good experience I'll switch on my desktop as well. Every time I have a bad experience in Windows lately I wonder why I'm sticking with it. Everything has been solved, its only momentum keeping me going.
It is quiet sad to see Windows deteriorate that much over the years because of the decreased investment and lack of care and craftsmanship for the quality of the software being pushed out.
Thankfully unless you're running a few specific applications that only run on Windows, you can use any other operating system. It will do the job, with much less frustrations.
I don't understand how it got so bad. On Windows 95 or 98, you knew that pressing Windows > P > across right > N would open Notepad in about 22 milliseconds of interaction. Things just worked and responded.
> You might be thinking "just disable updates, man" or "just install LTSC", or "just run some random debloat script off of GitHub". Why? Why would I jump through all these hoops? I'd rather put in the effort for an OS that knows what consent is and respects me as a user.
The absolute choice quote here. Tattoo it on your forehead.
My work-issued dev device is a Surface Pro 10. I can't use WSL2 for various regulatory reasons. I will never, ever work on software like this again. Worst development experience of my life because of what a miserable dev env windows is.
I know that's been a meme since forever, but my first hand experience supports it to the extreme.
Anyone have a recommendation on a decent cloud-based file sync tool ala OneDrive? I use OneDrive extensively but there is no official client for Linux and the unofficial one has some major stability issues. I'm willing to change providers but not willing to put in the effort to roll-my-own.
I would also love to hear any success stories here. I converted my wife's Macbook over to Linux Mint somewhat recently and the best I could do was setup a shortcut to the Web version of her iCloud.
I just have to figure out how to play a few of my games on Steam and I can move over. Unfortunately, a few titles are still PC only so I can't make the switch. I very much would love to, but I basically need a $600 PC at all times to play a few select titles that will never come to Linux due to anti-cheat.
Also, just to DISH hard on Microsoft's engineers - How could they make it throught the job interview the loser who wrote add / remove programs it takes so long to load and they are not even embarrased.
I also recently switched to Debian + KDE after decades on Windows. I cloned my previous workflows in a few days and now have a very smoothly working desktop that I can still game on. High DPI and refresh are also working OK.
FWIW for similar reasons I nuked my Windows install and installed CauchyOS. My main reason for not doing it earlier was concerns about game compatibility but so far the games I want to play either are working without any issue or work after enabling Steam's proton compatibility layer.
Ironically for me Linux has become the obvious default for casual use - web browsing, entertainment, paying my bills etc. I only boot Windows when I need to do some weird nerdy stuff, like checking updating SSD firmware with some proprietary software available only for Windows.
I'd be happy to switch to Linux, but my Macbook with M processor is a real work horse. First of all, everything works (bluetooth, headphones, camera, etc). Second of all, ARM based processor is a beast. Until someone release an ARM based laptop, I don't see myself switching to Linux.
Regarding high-quality commercial Linux software: SideFX Houdini offers a relatively affordable Indie license and is fantastic for most kinds of 3D work, compositing, and post-processing tasks. It’s also fully procedural and scriptable, which really makes my brain buzz.
Since most application run in the browser nowadays, the OS becomes less meaningful and more of a layer between browser and hardware.
If you see your PC as a tool, not a gimmick to consume, Linux is the only choice. Even MacOS crappifies over time and becomes a Windows copy over time.
Most people overlook that. I only ever see comments complaining about time spent to set up Linux. It's not the only variable, and for Windows it's the constant maintenance that's the issue. You are never just done setting up Windows.
I haven't even touched a Windows PC in years at this point. Don't know why you'd do that to yourself. I was hanging on to a gaming PC, but it broke during a move over 2 years ago now. I decided that was the last windows box I'd own at that point.
It's worth noting that if someone has the skill to install and run Linux with games, they probably have the skill to use massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts and ask AI to help bypass to install a local Windows account. And that probable takes less time.
I've been using Linux on my devices for quite some time now. I was pleasantly surprised when I had to start 4k video editing work and could just use Davinci Resolve. 2026 might not be the year of the Linux desktop, but it's getting better day by day.
At work, my employer is still running Microsoft products for the desktop environment. At home, assuming I'm using Microsoft products at all (rare), it's from inside the Chromium web browser on Linux or BSD.
The only thing keeping my secondary / gaming / file-server computer on Windows is Backblaze. The main obstacle to me switching from macOS to Linux is Office 365 (doesn't work on Wine).
I know we keep hearing about how their share holders are forcing this change of focus in order to monetize ai. I just fail to see how alienating developers and the gaming community in the process will ever help achieve that.
My main reason for getting into Linux, forget the version or distribution maybe Slackware or RH at the time (later loved Debian the most) was that windows in that era was horribly unstable, BSOD etc
I did the same on my laptop and PC. Unfortunately, my sound system receiver doesn't support Linux but I'll survive. And the speed of my machines more than makes up for it.
FWIW, On Reddit, I am seeing more and more discussions on the Linux subreddits or people getting fed up with Windows and switching to Linux. Usually, it's the Windows 11 upgrade that finally did it.
There is a good parallel here with Myspace and Facebook. Myspace added an ad network & was hammered by spammers around the same time Facebook was opening up user registration to everyone. Facebook had no ads. Myspace was dead.
This time Linux has very good game support to the point where some games have a higher FPS on Linux. It will be so expensive for Microsoft to attempt to turn this ship around, and it will likely still fail.
This is happening at the same time AI agents have gotten really good, so users will just use local AI agents to configure and troubleshoot the rough stuff about Linux. And then they will customize it so much they will never be able to go back to Windows.
Ubuntu is just fine for 99% of non tech users. Windows has so many anti-patterns, tricks, and OneDrive rugpulls now that Ubuntu is actually much safer and simpler for non-techies to use (I can also make the case it beats iOS in that department too.)
I switched during windows 10 and I had several friends switch after win7 wasn't supported. In hindsight I should have spent the few weeks to learn linux and switched back then too
I've had a similar path, and I always recommend KDE with its taskbar on Ubuntu, it made the transition smoother for me in terms of preserving workflows.
If you thought we were getting bad bugs before, just wait until the 90% agent-coded PRs start landing. We're gonna have multiple crowdstrike-level blowups.
For what it's worth, personally I thought your writing style and sense of humor was excellent, and my favorite part of the post.
I also appreciate you giving me an updated copy of the "Microsoft is a corporation" meme, as the one I have downloaded seems to become outdated each time a new Windows update comes out.
Thank you! Sadly, the one I posted is outdated too. I tried looking around for the newest one because I had seen it before, but couldn't find it anymore. The list was ~30% longer.
I haven't driven a Windows box since 2010 (and even then it was just a few months at work) and I'm perfectly happy! Except I'm on a Mac and have been at every job since 2006 when they came out with the Intel-based ones. I of course run Linux on VMs at work, but my daily driver has been and likely will forever be a Mac. I don't miss installing/tweaking video drivers or registry settings. Things just work 99.99% of the time for me. No one is perfect and Apple has made mistakes, but for me, I'm 100% satisfied.
How do you find macOS Tahoe? I have deliberately avoided installing it on my M3 MacBook Air that I use for work mainly due to the lack of attention to detail they seem to have dumped on the UI.
I have used a Mac at work on/off since the Snow Leopard days and I think Snow Leopard made the most sense from a UI point of view, without wedging in iCloud file nonsense.
I have a Windows 10 machine at home for gaming / development but my daily driver at home is a Linux M910 Lenovo (small enough and powerful enough for C++ dev), along with a Windows 11 mini Lenovo machine for GeForce Now usage on a TV in the house, but do I hate using Windows 11.
it's really bad these days. even the teams web client doesn't work properly and when it does it is missing the most basic features like "test my audio." i don't understand what it is about how that company is organized that the software keeps coming out with interfaces and user experiences that look like they were created by 2023 era generative ai.
Once again, I don't really understand people who say Windows is easier. Take printer drivers. In windows you have a 'simple' wizard to install a printer driver. Except in my experience... it never works the first time and you have to fiddle. On Linux... I just bought a new printer, and it worked out of the box. My experience with most hardware today on Linux is out-of-the-box support while windows requires endless 'driver' installs. Even driver installs on linux are easier. Usually just drop a binary blob somewhere if you really need it and modprobe...
Again it's 2026... why is this so hard. Usually paid software is actually better and more feature-ful, but Windows is just not useful at all. The best use of Windows is WSL2
I have a ricoh postscript printer that just won't work on Linux, I also have a Canon 6020 that works well in Linux. The Ricoh works well on Windows. So my experience with CUPS is mixed.
Welcome to the club. I started my Linux and BSD journey in ~1998 and I haven't really touched Windows since ~2001 except for the occasional brief interaction.
I've never missed it. Like at all. There have been instances where some piece of software didn't have a Linux alternative, that's mostly been a mild inconvenience. There have been cases where it's been a serious problem too, such as when my ever-so-wonderful government decided to start using e-ID which only worked on Windows (thanks, Wouter from grep.be for fixing that).
Mostly I enjoy how I'm in control of my machine, instead of having to rely on a bunch of untrustworthy moneygrabbers who seem hell-bent on making the worst possible decisions at every turn.
Linux has plenty of video card driver issues too. Windows may suck, but Linux sucks in different ways. Windows suckage is solved by "buy a different machine and reinstall". Linux suckage is solved by weeks googling and trying technical fixes in consoles, installing different distributions and trying the same, then eventually buying a different machine.
Apple, for all its flaws, tends to not have the suckage of either. I don't like using Apple, but it does break a lot less. (One of the reasons is encompassed in this story... while Microsoft and Nvidia yell at each other, Apple makes both the OS and the graphics card, so they just solve the problem internally) Apple with VMs gives you everything without the hardware hassles.
Another problem with Windows, that has been going on for quite some time now, is that they do not have a real support channel for non-enterprise users that produces useful knowledge for the future. Almost any issue you google now has a thousand "answers" on microsoft.com that do not fix the problem because the people answering have not reproduced it and have not confirmed their solution.
In Linux forums, generally speaking, there is either a way it works or agreement that it hasn't been fixed yet. The main source of spam now is actually StackExchange, that prioritizes discussions from 10 years ago on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, rather than up-to-date questions and answers.
To Protect yourself, this is what I did and experienced:
I set windows update service to manual, and so far the updates have not reset it, and I have been able to choose to install when I want. I feel safer, but I KNOW microsoft will fuck this over probably on their next update.
Another trick is as a super-super admin you can make executables UNEXECUTABLE by anyone. Things like Edge, etc. They do not let us remove their TRASH, but we still can lock them out, at least for now.
Another thing I had to do with Windows 11 when I had to rebuild my system because of Microsoft's SSD bug they would not cop too... They got rid of the magic trick to disable to OOBE which forces you to login with a microsoft account.... I could not find a way to work around it, but as soon as I was in I created a local admin user and it works well, they only force logged me in when I had to run FUCKING TEAMS for a job interview.
I'm heading down the linux path very soon, I almost did last year. Dual boot for a while, to see if how well my Steam library plays (literally it's the only thing keeping me on Windows 11).... Looking at Bazzite for this but we'll see.
I'd switch if it weren't for anticheat breaking the games I play. I really, really hate Windows, and Windows 11 even more than normal levels of Windows hate. I had to do some really weird shit to get it to a place that feels sane.
"The only real limitation is that some games with anti-cheat like Valorant, Call of Duty or League of Legends won't run. But honestly I think not being able to launch League of Legends is actually a feature - one final reason to install Linux."
A few years ago, I would have said that any game that uses such a level of anticheat that makes wine/proton unable to play it (ie: kernel level anticheat) is basically malware and you _shouldn't_ play it anyway, out of both principle, and also because if they had a bug in their code, you're just opening up your device to an unnecessary privilege escalation vector that other malware can abuse to escalate their privileges. (This is not theoretical, this has happened before, eg: with Genshin. Though I believe just the mere existence of a signed driver was enough, since malware can just "Bring your own Driver" (BYOD) and download the driver, at least before it was revoked)
Now, I still hold this belief in most regards. But I do see the appeal, especially if your friends and peers are gamers and actively play these sorts of games, and you feel that you're missing out on socialising or making new friends in that aspect. But there are plenty of other games and consoles, if you could just convince them to switch...
This sort of anticheat exists because cheat developers ruin the experience for players, and for games that intend to be competitive in a real sense, the integrity of the game. Cheat developers keep getting smarter, so anticheat developers need to do the same. I guess the kernel is sorta as deep as you can go, at least with software.
I don't like it personally but I do understand why they do it. It just means I can't play those games on Linux, and some studios just don't care.
It's a shame that they don't care, though supporting such a minuscule percentage of the gaming market doesn't make a lot of sense unless out of principle/just do to it.
You absolutely can design a non-intrusive anticheat that doesn't hook into the kernel layer, and many games do exactly that. They do checks server-side, without hooking into your system. Or design their game to make it harder, eg if a player is behind a wall and can't be seen, don't even send the packets saying there's a player there.
Even with invasive anticheat, any dedicated actor can (and usually eventually do) find ways around it, and it becomes a game of cat and mouse. I feel a similar way about DRM in general.
Imo the tradeoff and danger is not worth it for consumers, but most are just not aware of the risk. Game developers take advantage of this and also do it because it's easier than actually designing their game in a way to minimise cheating (be it through code, or game mechanics)
On a tangent, even though it's for the wrong reasons (Even if I were a full-time user and a fan of Windows, I would not want to install games with invasive anticheat and pollute my system, out of principle), I'm glad that there is at least some pressure and pushback on invasive anticheat by gamers that usually run Windows, just for the reason so that it can run on something like a Steam Deck.
Many games do that, yes, though with varying degrees of success and often they get beaten by cheat tools. That's not to say that kernel-level anticheat can't get beaten, though there is a reason why games like Valorant have fewer such incidents. The cost/effort required to bypass the anticheat is way higher than some client-side checks.
Some games do choose to go the route of server-side authority, only showing what the client should be able to see, though I understand that's super compute heavy. Final Fantasy XIV does something akin to this, but players still develop client-side plugins to make their lives easier (higher-than-allowed camera zoom-out, displaying hidden boss mechanics when the client receives them, etc)
Cheats are also financially supported, specially in higher-profile games like Fortnite, Valorant, League of Legends, or similar, so the incentive to produce higher quality cheats exists.
People have been caught by pretending to play but actually screensharing the view of a pro player on their account, so I suppose that won't cover this :P
I made the decision to just play a different game when I switched back in 2022 or so. Thankfully, the game in question supported Linux shortly after the switch even though I got used to not playing it and just don't anymore :) I still try any anti-cheat games I come across to see if they work and it's surprising how many actually do.
Nothing wrong with staying on Windows if compatibility is an issue, though.
Trados Studio, good luck finding equivalent, I tried, and the alternatives are horrendous and I'm not gonna run it in VM.
Also I tried at least for son on his old computer live distro Mint from USB drive, everything works fine (unlike Zorin, which had problem with sound I think), but when I try to install it of course it doesn't detect Windows, same with wife's laptop.
So I have 3 computers:
son's old laptop where I could install Mint - Linux Mint doesn't detect Windows
wife's old laptop where I could install Mint - Linux Mint doesn't detect Windows
my daily driver where my work SW requires Windows and there is no point installing Mint - Linux Mint detects Windows
I will have look at it during CNY holidays, if I will be able to install it alongside Windows (I need there Windows in case something would happen with my daily driver laptop).
I also plan to switch my father's old desktop to Linux Mint, but somehow I already know what will be most likely Windows detection status over there as well after son's and wife's laptop experiences. It works where it's not needed and it doesn't work, where I could actually install it.
Btw, my first computer was an Intel Pentium MMX 166Mhz IIRC, massive 64MB of SIMM ram, and impressive 8GB of disk. Trident "graphic card", Creative sound card and the ultra fast Motorola 56k modem haha
"I installed CachyOS .... It wasn't a painless process. In fact, sleep mode was broken from the start"
This is the problem with newbies into Linux world, they follow hype instead of installing a stable distro.
As it stands in 2026, Linux Mint Cinnamon is by far the best distro to use, no matter if you are into IT field, heavy gaming, video editing and 3D design, it just works.
It follows the well known stability of Debian Linux, while being up-to-date like Ubuntu but without all the bloatware, kernel panic and privacy issues from Ubuntu.
If you are following hype or those distro so called "rolling releases" aka Arch Linux, don't complain that you are having problems.
They are everything but stable and "just works" lmao
"Oh you're doing work? That's so cute... we're gonna close whatever apps you had open, because we're updating now. We own your computer.
You had unsaved work? Too bad, it's gone, get bent."
This, a 1,000 times. I hate, hate, hate this "feature". My Macs don't do that. My Linux systems don't do that. The whole, "screw you, we don't care" attitude of Microsoft is quite appalling.
Microsoft now makes it very difficult to disable this feature. After a few registry edits, I thought I was able to put a stop to the madness. But, then it went to rebooting on its own again.
I keep telling Windows 10 to delay these updates by 1 week each time...
Curiously, Office apps have auto-save, so does IntelliJ, VSCode, and even Notepad nowadays.. "restore my work environment after a reboot" almost works, but some things do disappear (e.g. unsaved web input forms) that it's aggravating enough. I wonder if they'll make it mandatory for apps to persist more across restarts.
Ok, that requires them to be competent, if they're competent we won't even have what we have now.
> Meanwhile, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella wrote a blog post asking people to stop calling AI-generated content "slop" and to think of AI as "bicycles for the mind."
I can't believe Nadella stole Jobs "bicycles for the mind" metaphor without attribution.
Literally just hit the MPO bug yesterday - what a shitshow that things like display scaling can fail with a mainstream gpu/cpu and windows 11 - like do they not have testing rigs for this in microsoft? if insiders preview is fine but production windows gets all these bugs... what are they inside previewing? The most stable build of windows I ever had (hell it's still chugging along with 1050 days of uptime...) was a windows 10 enterprise edition added to domain controller with update GPO set to basically never install windows updates automatically.
There is some serious work needed inside microsoft camp to continue with a 6 month release cycle.
I’ve been working at a school that uses a mix of Surfacebooks, HP Elitebooks and MacBook Air M2s (now migrating everyone to M4s!).
I used to prefer Windows for work. After the absolutely abysmal performance using a SurfaceBook Pro, never again. I’ve never had to deal with such slow performance in my life. I literally cannot get work done. Staff with Windows have constant problems, updates take forever, reboots aren’t very fast, programs crash, and (not OS related) but the new Outlook is universally despised.
I’ve never seen a company shoot themselves in the foot so badly as I’ve seen Microsoft do this of late. More and more staff want MacBooks , and are even ok with using a remote session (ugh) to access the one app that relies on Windows.
Iv'e switched all but my work laptop because of well work, but the push came after they seemed to 'dumb' down the OS.
The disjointed WebView mixed with old winforms for navigating simple things is infuriating alone. I've had a problem where the webview wouldn't render any of the display settings so my machine was stuck at a certain resolution and scale.
Simple things like accessing Environment Variables now is atrocious and hidden in the most obscure unintuitive way. That's to say nothing to the crashing. Linux desktop environments have come such a long way it's really any wonder anyone would put up with Windows anymore.
But then again, Microslop don't seem to care about the customer market much anymore anyway.
> If 3 years ago you would have told me that Microsoft would singlehandedly sabotage their own OS, doing more Linux marketing than the most neckbearded Linux fanboy (or the most femboy Thinkpad enjoyer), I'd have laughed in your face
I have no idea what that Thinkpad burn is supposed to mean.
Its not a burn. Just acknowledging the memes about cross dressing and programming/computer science that has been going around certain online circles for years.
As time goes on, I get closer and closer for Linux to be my daily driver. The ads, the Microsoft account login, the OneDrive in the explorer window, the 'recommendations' to change my default browser, etc make me more angry by the day. However, when I install Linux on an old machine, I initially have driver issues like wifi. And after fighting with that for an hour, I decide it's not worth the risk to blow away my main machine. So I accept the slop from MS and continue on.
Another day another "hey guys I switched Linux" post gets pushed to the top of the heap. These add nothing except create an echo chamber about great Linux is and Windows is the worst.
Fwiw... I've been doing Leenucks since '92. Back when you had to install BSD first, compile the kernel and reverse engineer how to boot into the new kernel you just built with gcc. But it was cheaper than SunOS, and the developers mailing list was more active than the BSD lists. I still miss my 3B1.
Anyway... welcome to the party. We saved you a beer. Doesn't matter you came later than other people. It just matters you made it here eventually.
I’ve been using a Mac for a about three years now, but every once in a while I use my old gaming laptop to play some games and every time I am reminded of how insufferable windows has become, using it feels I’m dumpster diving and the dumpster is asking me to sign into my Microsoft account. Apple gets a lot of shit for how they do things, but no one can deny that once you’re properly established in their ecosystem, it’s a phenomenal experience.
The author tried everything except switching graphics drivers?! That's like listening to the top 10 hits on broken speakers and declaring all new music is terrible.
Uninstalled with DDU, switched to multiple versions back.
But it wasn't the nvidia driver, and I proved that when I switched to an insider build and the flickers were gone :D
Similar journey, different distro! I wanted a Linux gaming machine, but given my recent admission into the cult of NixOS, I went with Jovian.
Jovian is a NixOS module that sets up a SteamOS-like experience on top of your existing NixOS config. I was able to build & tweak the config before even building my PC. It booted first try and has since been working without hiccups. Now I am setting up emulators, which is relatively straightforward with nixpkgs :)
> I'm gonna go full conspiracy nut here, but I bet it's because the LLM understands JavaScript better, and Microsoft can't be asked to pay actual humans to write proper native code.
Do LLMs like Claude really excel at JavaScript than other programming languages? Similarly does OpenAI prefers Python over other languages?
I did that years ago, at the end of Windows 7 and the beginning of the need for a Microsoft account.
I seem to have a much lower tolerance for enshitification than most people. I'm off Microsoft, Facebook, Google, and LinkedIn. Purely because they became annoying.
It's still disappointing how few folks know about gpedit and how much you can reclaim your own machine just by running through the local policies and setting them to "no, I call the shots".
I take an adversarial approach to Windows. Which started with Windows XP and its supremely annoying zip-files-as-folders approach. Sorry, but I didn’t want that, and I still gleefully rip it out of every Windows install I touch.
And then things started snowballing with every version.
Plus, I have elderly clients that got hopelessly lost on any UI after XP, so I had a lot of hacking-and-slashing to do there for not only them, but also myself. Like, just give me the option of a traditional XP-style start menu, goddammit. Thank goodness for StartIsBack.
But what took me about 6-8hrs of directed work with XP is now about 24-48hrs of work with Windows 11. Honestly, I am at the point where I just want to create a highly opinionated one-click configuration app that does everything for me.
And I would, if I still did as many installs as I was doing even half a decade ago.
Hmmm… as a DotNet developer… anyone interested in a spyware-eviscerating, copilot-extracting, settings-preserving app that allows you to retain a mostly-XP style look, and which remains resident to alert you of Microslop changing settings back?
>anyone interested in a spyware-eviscerating, copilot-extracting, settings-preserving app that allows you to retain a mostly-XP style look, and which remains resident to alert you of Microslop changing settings back?
I'm not, MS already lost me. But I would bet there's a market for such an app, if done right.
I could talk about things better in Linux whole day. But besides popularity (so being preinstalled, proprietary software availability, being presented from childhood) is there a single reason to use Windows? Backwards compatibility, accessibility? Maybe?
I switched to Linux circa 2010 when I needed a word processor but didn't want to go to the store to buy Office (was pretty young and poor at the time). After some Googling I found LibreOffice and Ubuntu. I had used Suse Linux years earlier when I was a kid but it definitely wasn't ready for use (2003) so I was also curious about Ubuntu and the current state at the time. I installed Ubuntu, used LibreOffice for the thing I needed, and never looked back. Linux was a breath of fresh air and it did all the things I needed. I went to university using only Linux (2012-2016), opened businesses, did all sorts of things, all 100% on Linux. Nice to see everyone else finally catching up.
Also has always been interesting seeing people whine about Linux the whole time I've been using it problem-free, across 4 PCs and 16 years.
Microsoft had a chance make even better OS than XP and 7 and convince millions of users to use Windows.
Okay maybe with Office products the ocean was already red, but still, instead of disgusting its millions of users, they could make them happy.
I am not a firm believer that GNU/Linux distributions are a drop-in replacement for Windows. One can work around compatibility issues, but for non–tech-savvy people, it's just not feasible.
I switched to MacOS since the release of Windows 10 and never looked back, of course I did miss some apps, though using laggy windows was much more painful.
I honestly don't understand the hatred that Microsoft gets for most of the work they're doing in Windows. As I've stated before, most 'problems' people ultimately have are either configuration issues or hardware issues. And I still stand by this even as I've had issues over the years here or there.
I think the most recent 'production' Windows issue I've had was OneDrive failing to recognize it was syncing my data even though it was syncing. The status symbols for the files and folders wasn't showing up. But that's about it.
My gaming desktop is stable, my PC is rock solid, I run VMs on it (game servers, dev/test environments), and overall just absolutely 0 problems with Windows or my OS at all.
I do, however, have hardware issues semi often. One of my monitors doesn't turn off its backlight, for example. I've had Razer devices just flat out quit on me over the years (multiple Razer mice, at least a couple of Nagas, etc.).
I contend that most people would do better with Windows if they just didn't mess with it (don't run any of those tools proclaiming to "debloat" your OS), and make sure you read the hardware compatibility list of your systems REALLY hard. Incompatible RAM can cause significant problems, a lot of which is completely avoidable if you just read the RAM QVL.
The only thing that I wish vendors would do more is work closer with Microsoft to provide BIOS updates over Windows Update. But, most of these motherboard IHVs are absolutely terrible about doing BIOS updates anyway and require specific mechanisms to keep going correctly. This is in contrast to the Enterprise/Business devices released by HP or Dell which have a usually solid BIOS update track. And again, the only issue I've ever had there was incompatible RAM.
>> I honestly don't understand the hatred that Microsoft gets for most of the work they're doing in Windows. As I've stated before, most 'problems' people ultimately have are either configuration issues or hardware issues.
And then you go on to describe your own hardware problems with windows. That's called "projection" - attributing your experience to everyone else. It's like you don't read the other complaints or somehow dismiss them. Have you not seen the ads yourself? Maybe you take the suggestions to use other Microsoft products as helpful suggestions rather than ads. Is that it? OneDrive failing? Try saying NO to using OneDrive - that's what some people would like to do and it'll keep advertising and trying to enable itself. Then when we do use it... well you've got issues with it not working right too.
I feel Windows 11 is in the initial phase of Windows 10. Remember beginning of years for 10? Sluggy, clunky, full of bugs? And everybody and their cat was holding to 7? I was the same, I was holding down the fort with 7. This year 7, next year 7 and so on until at one time I, like countless times before, spun a new virtual machine for a client and as usual I had to put 10 in there. Except this time 10 felt faster. No more clumsiness, no more slop. 2 months later I fully switched to 10 as my host OS.
I am currently on 10 so much that I installed the LTSC version that has support until 2032. Keep hammering Microslop, they deserve it. We need to keep bugging them, throw dirt on their face until they actually fix it. Seems that's the way with them nowadays. So I don't feel any shame to call them names at every corner.
But I am still not switching to Linux. Maybe in '32 when LTSC stop being supported and they still didn't fix 11. Oh, and from my experience, Debian will be the way to go. I like a proven distribution even if their repository is not the greatest and the latest.
The driver situation on Linux is still pretty hit-or-miss, but thanks to Microsoft's recent efforts, Windows has reached the same level of reliability as well.
Is this an ideological question? They are still primarily closed source.
Is this an install difficulty question? If you can read you can install them.
Is this a performance question? If you're a normie they're good. If you're demanding the top fps at the top resolution in dx12 games then there is still a noticeable difference but it should be fixed this year.
One aspect I wonder about is not so much about whether the collective gaming-on-linux effort can close the performance/features gap, but keep it closed. The story has been that windows is the main target system for "PC" game development and hardware/drivers (for good reason, it has majority market share), and then linux lags behind as various efforts figure out what's missing and how to implement.
Right now and for the foreseeable near term (3 years or so?) it seems like the focus on GPU advancements isn't aimed at gaming so will be a period of stability, but I wonder if/when focus does come back to gaming, when there's a new round of consoles, when a company wants a new feature set to distinguish a new generation (like geforce 20 series versus 10 and earlier), what can be done to make sure linux users aren't second class citizens. I'd also wonder about development tools, to use the most popular engine as an example, what could change with unreal engine to make sure it builds software that plays nice with the linux ecosystem even if the tooling works best under windows.
Yeah the main reason to dislike Nvidia drivers on Linux these days from a regular user point of view (I am not a Wayland developer so I don’t have to deal with whatever technical annoyance there is there) is just the philosophical/potential-privacy annoyance of running closed source code on my open source system. This doesn’t give the entirely closed source OS any points.
> Is this an ideological question? They are still primarily closed source.
That's a decent enough reason for a linux user to buy an AMD GPU but it isn't a good reason not switch to linux from a closed source OS. I'm in the process of switching to linux full time (it shouldn't really take that long but I haven't had a solid chunk of time in a bit) and am using an NVidia GPU so I went from closed source windows drivers to closed source linux drivers.
You're the top comment that addresses this so I'm putting this here but not exactly replying to you.
If they're bad because they are proprietary, it is what it is. If they're bad because their dx12 performance is worse on linux than windows, supposedly the fixes for the vulkan descriptor boogeyman problem are just around the corner.
Drivers are generally fine, but there's more to it than just switching. If you're not bothered by the Win11 stuff, switching is probably not for you. Perhaps you can look into Linux for your current use cases and see if it's at all attractive.
The nvidia gods smile upon me, zero issues except the one I mentioned in the article.
They do have to fix VKD3D performance though, 10-30% perf loss on Intel/Nvidia hardware when playing DX12 games.
I just started a new job where I'm subjected to Windows 11. They gave me a behemoth of a laptop. 64GB of RAM, absolute screamer of a CPU, big GPU, the whole deal.
Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
I'm getting used to a new keyboard, so I keep hitting Print Screen by accident. Half the time I can smack Esc and Snipping Tool will go away. The other half of the time, I have to mouse over and click the X to close it. There is no pattern to when Esc does/doesn't work.
If my computer goes to sleep, WSL becomes unresponsive. I have to save all my stuff and reboot to continue working.
If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else. All my colleagues who have been here for a bit longer got last-generation laptops. oof.
Edit... and besides, what does Windows 11 even do that KDE Plasma 5 wasn't doing a decade ago? How did it take this long to get a tabbed file browser?
> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I have a Windows 11 workstation that I use all the time for some CAD software and the occasional game. Everything is fast. There's no lag with context menus or browsing directories with a lot of files.
If I have to browse network CIFS shares with a lot of files, Windows does it better than my mac or Linux boxes by a mile. I've switched over just to Windows a time or two just to deal with high file count shares.
> If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else.
I put Windows 11 on an old low powered laptop for a family member. FYI you can easily circumvent some of the Windows 11 requirements and put it on old hardware.
It's fast. It doesn't have any of the problems you're describing.
I do wonder how many of the "Windows 11 is painfully slow" comments are coming from people with corporate laptops with extremely laggy endpoint management overhead.
>> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
You can repro this on demo Surface laptops at Costco. It’s not a good look when expensive laptops render their darn File Explorer slowly.
Also re endpoint management, corporate Macs also have endpoint management and still provide better experience vs corporate Windows PCs.
Microsoft isn’t a mute participant in the corporate device market. Their recommendations and best practices carry enormous weight. Windows division can work with security vendors and customers to improve UX. But they maybe haven’t done enough. Maybe because Windows is an increasingly small fraction of Microsoft’s bottom line? Who knows.
But today you’ll see increasing numbers of Macs in even super-Windows-heavy workplaces, especially in digital/cyber/AI/leadership roles. That’s not a one-company quirk.
> Microsoft isn’t a mute participant in the corporate device market.
This is 100% on point! For the past three years all of my in-office work was done on a ChromeBox running ChromeOS, I work in a contact center, but my specific project does not focus on customers but other stuff.
At first I thought they did this because Chrome-anything is usually cheap, but the devices they give us are all around or above $1000, so now I think we use them only because the client wants us to use them, since on some other projects they do use Windows, but with this client we have A LOT of project and A LOT of work, so it's not like we're the exception.
I think with the advent of SteamOS, ChromeOS and Android merging, we could legit see a serious move away from Windows, even in corporate worlds, but who knows, my vision could just be clouded, I'm not a genius or some smart person like a bunch of people here on HN, I work for basically a minimum salary (Portugal), live in a room, that the company that hires me, rents to me, and read HN mostly for entertainment.
A few years ago my laptop died while I was travelling. I was going to back to back tech conferences - and not having a computer would be a disaster. So, I went to best buy and picked up a brand new $500 HP laptop. It was running windows 11 or 10 or something - whatever was current at the time. And a recent enough intel CPU and 4gb of ram. It was way faster than my desktop machine from 10 years earlier. I figured it'd be plenty fast enough.
Nope. The experience was just rubbish. Out of the box, the machine was incredibly slow. It would get warm to the touch while sitting idle, and the battery would die in about 45 minutes. I quickly figured out there was some HP audio process running all the time to do noise cancellation on input from the microphone. For some reason it was active all the time, and it needed about 30% of a core to do its thing. So I got rid of that. But windows explorer was still slow... of course, it was some HP antivirus rootkit program preinstalled doing who knows what. I spent hours clearing crap off that machine. Anything with HP in the name, to start. It probably would have been faster to reinstall windows completely, but I didn't want to do that from a hotel room over wifi.
By the time I was done, it was ... ok. The machine still lagged when you opened programs for some reason. But the battery life went up to 3-4 hours, and it was fast enough I could get work done.
I think about that laptop a lot. Imagine all the people who buy those laptops. What % will spend the hours it took to clear the crapware off them? I can easily imagine my mother buying a laptop like that and just assuming that's how fast computers are.
I think this might be the #1 benefit for regular people to buying a mac. When you buy a computer from apple, there's no 3rd party who installed a bunch of crap on the computer before you got your hands on it. The only people who install crap software are Apple. And as much as I hate apple's greedy background processes, they tend to pause while you're running on battery.
> You can repro this on demo Surface laptops at Costco.
Never underestimate how much bloatware is running on that costco laptop. Open up task manager. You'll see.
I recently reset a Dell laptop for a friend. Dual core, 8gb RAM, HDD (not SSD), can run Windows 11, so I ran the built-in recovery feature and it took almost 2 days to just get Windows 10 updated.
When I saw it was still absolutely crap and unusable, I considered putting Linux on it, but didn't want to end up as support, so...
Long story short, a clean install of Windws 11 was functional. Updates took forever and a day. The computer itself takes about 6-8 minutes to become usable on boot, but once everything is cached into RAM, it's usable.
More usable initially than my work issued Dell (when I actually worked at Dell) that within a week I cloned and installed an SSD on, probably breaking all kinds of terminable policies. So,story time:
I did some silly things in those 4 years there to bypass bureaucracy: Cloned my entire laptop into a VM to have a secondary method of accessing work stuff. Created an entire test lab using unauthorized disk cloning into VMs for remote access. Disabled auto updates by management software so PCs wouldn't be kicked off the network. Probably set off all kinds of alarms. Would occasionally reenable to keep VM authorized.
The kicker is that I was recognized company-wide for creating something useful out of basically nothing but my time and curiosity. Got a bonus for it, on top of it.
To your point, my 96GB DDR5 24-core desktop-replacement "gaming" laptop, when used regularly, with a decent amount of startup apps, still struggles to be responsive on boot. There is a lot of bloat I don't want to get rid of because they provide updates and performance features. At startup, I'm usually at 14 GB RAM used, which is nuts. Not sure how to fix this trend.
> I'm usually at 14 GB RAM used, which is nuts. Not sure how to fix this trend.
I know this isn't an option for many, but I think swapping to linux might be the right first step. Linux would be fast as lightning on a computer like that.
After decades I’m back where I started putting BSD on everything. I can’t deal with MS Apple anymore.
I don't share his experience entirely, by even on my desktop built for gaming I can notice the right click menu is delayed in comparison to Windows 10. Even more heinous, before you remove it, the AI button would lazy load causing you to sometimes hit it by accident when you mean to hit something else. God forbid I'm not 80 years old and click my menus with any sort of speed.
Also, if I'm going to have to adjust anything to use an operating system, I might as well use Linux. The only value prop for me to use Windows was gaming, but at this point I'm just completely ripping the band-aid off because it doesn't seem like Microsoft is going in a better direction.
> Even more heinous, before you remove it, the AI button would lazy load causing you to sometimes hit it by accident when you mean to hit something else.
Yup, definitely intended
I had a comment a few days ago about my freshly installing, configuring, and A/B testing W10 and W11 on a not-too-old HP laptop, using both HDD and NVMe:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46750358
That was then.
Now last night my partner comes back from the dumpster with a Toshiba laptop that's in great shape, its 20 full years old, came with Windows Vista, had been upgraded to Windows 7, has 1GB of memory, 120GB SATA2 HDD (slower than modern SATA), dual-core 1.73GHz CPU.
Seems to work perfectly and With W7 it's snappier than the 2019 HP booted to old or new Windows 10 or Windows 11 even more. All comparisons at baseline without the internet.
When you try W11 on a HDD it really emphasizes the difference from W10 on the same hardware.
But when this kind of W7 thing just falls in your lap, it really hits you how much better performance could have been available by now from Windows if they really tried.
Or didn't drop the ball every time they were at bat, depending on the general manager ;)
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I disagree. I've got windows defender as the only endpoint software on both my daily driver machines, and I see the same issues.
In 2019, I was working for a place that installed Carbon Black on my desktop and it went from fast to unusable overnight. I've since changed jobs, and I've seen a decay in the baseline of the OS over the last 6 years.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I know you're getting hammered on this, but this is also an indicting statement. If your brand-new OS requires you to have endpoint management that locks it down so much that it affects how long it takes to open files, that's on the OS, not the endpoint management.
Okay, it's on both... endpoint management as a rule is horribly written software, which is shocking knowing how intrusive it is into the system. But, if the OS has so many vulnerabilities that you're required to have endpoint management, that's not a good look on the OS.
My current and former $JOB both required endpoint management on Macs (and a limited amount for folks who used Linux), so it's not a blanket statement. But the impact of the endpoint software on Mac and Linux were still much lower. That is, once I figured out that a certain (redundant) enterprise firewall was crashing my work Mac anytime I plugged in a USB network adapter.
>>> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
>>> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
This can also be due to OneDrive / Sharepoint / Teams etc. Which I suspect supports your point.
A hard lesson I learned was that cloning a git repository into a directory managed by OneDrive is a recipe for interesting behavior.
Windows seemingly hate many tiny files, even in sharded directories, many ecosystems suffered because of this; node_modules, .git, the examples are many.
To be fair on this default windows drive formatting is not well suited to many small files in general.
Unrealengine taking 40 extra gigs because of underutilization on small files is one rampant case.
Large python project disk ballooning is another.
That it's file copy move is also dramatically bad at handling such scenarios compounds this further as can be seen by shuffling the same lot with teracopy vs explorer and windows default behavior irrespective of drive formatting. Can easily be hours of difference.
> To be fair on this default windows drive formatting is not well suited to many small files in general
How is that fairer? :P They set the defaults, they could change it, yet they don't. Seems entirely fair to point out shitty defaults as faults of their OS, regardless of how that came to be.
Yeah, I remember trying to delete a fully loaded Python installation that had found its way onto a OneDrive-managed folder. After a chat with IT, I learned that OneDrive can only delete X number of files at once. We agreed that the most practical solution was for me to spend an hour deleting files by hand, and choose another drive next time. Fortunately I don't really depend on OneDrive as a backup, since GitHub does that job well enough.
The other thing is that both Git and OneDrive are in some sense fiddling with your file system at once.
Even without OneDrive, ever tried to delete a directory with millions of small files? Even sharded, takes like 30 minutes, on fast SSDs...
> The other thing is that both Git and OneDrive are in some sense fiddling with your file system at once.
Why would .git be fiddling with your file system? It writes into .git, and changes files, but shouldn't do more than that.
If I were an assuming feller I'd "almost guarantee" that you haven't been blessed/cursed with anything besides Windows 11.
A lot of my beef, personally, can be chalked up to Windows' aggressively long animation times. It's serviceable with them turned off. But even with animations turned off on an aggressively debloated consumer PC there is either a notable delay or a perception thereof in context menus and file explorer that did not exist with Windows 10, or on my Linux machines.
Speaking of animations, it’s shocking to me how bad they are.
I turned on hiding the taskbar the other day. I don’t think they’ve changed it since Windows 95. I have a modern gaming laptop, and the animation is purely linear, no acceleration. It feels so weirdly unnatural. Even worse, it’s not smoothly animated! I have a 120Hz monitor but it seems to be animated at 5fps.
Nobody on the Windows team seems to give a single shit at all.
win11 look and feel felt a rushed metoo kneejerk reflex
From the comment you're replying to: "Windows does it better than my mac or Linux boxes by a mile"
So I wouldn't assume they've only used Windows. FWIW I also primarily use Windows 11 currently, but have also used other OS'es. I've experienced frustrations with all of them. Just because it's fast for you doesn't mean it's fast for everyone, and vice-versa. I could certainly buy that more people are having problems with 11 than they did with 10, though it hasn't been my personal experience. Just saying we shouldn't assume our own experiences are universal.
The irony of that first line might be lost along the wire because I explicitly called it an assumption where the gp did not.
"I have a Windows 11 workstation ... There's no lag with context menus or browsing directories with a lot of files."
You have the same Windows updates as everyone else and it will be painful. Also you should be keeping those CAD and games up to date and that will be very painful. Updates often happen at unfortunate times.
The Win 11 start menu has managed to be worse than the Win 10 effort and jumped to the middle of the task bar because ... reasons. Search on it is ever so slow. For some reason Win server 2025 has decided that I want to use a welsh keyboard (I'm english and tend to en_GB) when I RDP to one. Cymraeg (soz if I got "welsh" wrong) is alphabetically first in the en_GB list of keyboard mappings and I didn't even know there is a welsh keyboard! I suppose they must have some accents and diacritics not found in english. Its all just a bit weird that a bug like that surfaces after well over two decades of me using RDP from a Linux box to a Windows server.
You wag your finger at endpoint management in the same way that most software vendors used to do at AV back in the 90s and 00s (and 10s and 20s!) Its nothing new and basically bollocks! Modern AV is very good at being mostly asynchronous these days and besides, we have unimaginably faster machines these days and very fast CPU, gobs of RAM and SSDs. Copy a multi GB file and yes AV will take a while but at least you might be saved from nasties.
There is a good reason that corp devices have to run things like inventory agents, log shippers and the rest too - its about security. You doing your own IT security is fine and I'm sure you'll be fine.
You can get Win 11 to work on an old machine for now but as you say, you have to circumvent things. When you do that, I think you are storing up issues for later. Perhaps you will be lucky but perhaps not. My dad will soon be rocking Linux instead of blowing a grand+ on a new PC. He will get a secure booting Ubuntu based effort that looks quite similar to Win 11 that is fully supported by the vendor ... and me. I managed to "port" my wife some years ago and she is a much tougher proposition than my dad!
> Also you should be keeping those CAD and games up to date
Not OP, but why? I have a perpetual license and a 12-year-old copy of a corpo CAD package and it works fine. I see no reason to compulsively update something that's feature-complete and functional.
Updates break shit or make shit worse for me all the time. See: Windows 11, macOS Tahoe, and KDE next year when they drop my working X11 session and expect me to use busted-ass Wayland that's missing functionality I use daily.
Why do I need updates? "Security?" I'm not exactly a nation-state hacking target. I don't run random pirated software. I'm firewalled to hell, and behind CGNAT on Starlink. I'll keep my browser up to date, fine, but I'm still running -esr.
"that's feature-complete and functional."
I get where you are coming from. That was my stance roughly 20 years ago too. I also note that you are quite clearly not daft!
You and I have different "jobs". I worry about thousands of systems on many sites, one of which is my home. I'm an IT consultant and am the managing director of my company. I think you are an engineer, perhaps retired ("12-year-old copy of a corpo CAD package and it works fine")
If Solidworks, Catia, AutoCAD or whatever (?) works then fine. You might like to firewall off whichever vendor's website/security systems might want to stop a 12 year old copy of a corpo CAD from working if it isn't licensed. It probably is because all of the above generally need a license service.
I worry about many 1000s of PCs and I think updates, patches etc are a good idea. If you are an engineer, then you will have to do your own "deploy, fix issues" cycle. IT is just the same.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
Not necessarily. Every little or not so little utility deems it necessary to install a context menu item on Windows. Corporate or not. Just like every little or not so little utility deems it necessary to send you notifications on mobile.
On Windows the solution is Total Commander, on mobile the solution is to turn all notifications off :)
The Windows 11-way is to just plaster another, worse, context menu over the working existing one. Now every right click was actually two clicks. You can disable it, but what the hell...
Random fact: I'm involved in a Windows project and there's a CreateWindowEx that can be either instant or take like 7 seconds on the win 11 machines.
When it's slow it takes 3 seconds on win 10.
How about a right click on the desktop? I have a very fast computer with no bloatware on, yet it takes half a second for the desktop context menu to appear. When I do this repeatedly. The first time takes 1 second or more.
Compare with a right click menu in a browser which is instant.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop > MenuShowDelay set to 100 (ms) close regedit, reboot.
"Due to my elite programming skills, I figured out how to shave THIRTY SECONDS from my app's startup time. Here's some optimization tips:
1. Remove the sleep(30) statement you added a month ago and forgot about"""
-Lars Doucet
I have an old Win7 workstation, I did so many mods to it at the build time that now I don’t even know how it works.
Lol . You made my day. I was doing that kind of Registry mangling 25 years ago. Brought me good memories, its been a while.
I'm so happy I haven't had to use a Windows machine in more than 10 years.
For me, MacBookPro for coding, Linux Mint for home desktop and Steam + Xbox Live online for gaming. We live in excellent times
Good god.
Why is this set to 400ms?
Any reason it's not 0?
> Why is this set to 400ms?
I can't test it on my current computer, but does the setting affect menus that are triggered by hovering over something?
If so, then 400ms makes more sense, and the real bug is that menus summoned by an explicit click should be exempt from the delay.
The reason for a hover-delay is that it allows someone to flick their mouse to their real destination without triggering a "trap" of content which pops up on the way to obscure their goals.
But why?
The endpoint stuff kills laptop performance. I left my previous job and they let me keep my X1 Nano (1st gen; 16GB memory) which was performing abysmally towards the end.
Deleted all the partitions and did a 100% clean install (multi boot Win11/Fedora), and it's suddenly what feels like 2-4x as fast. Made sure to disable some of the Copilot and Internet content in search menu rubbish etc with a few registry tweaks (yay for having admin access to get rid of the bloat/junk).
Fedora/Wayland/Plasma still feels faster though - I just had some issues getting my video to work properly across all of Teams and Zoom.
Back in the times of Windows 95 and Windows XP, reinstalling the OS at least once per year made Windows noticeably faster. Then it degraded month by month. And yet I still remember how incredibly faster the same laptop was with Ubuntu 8.04. Faster than a newly installed Windows.
>> Context menus take a noticeable amount of time to appear.
>I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
It seems to be a common complaint online, dating back to the launch of 11. I see some of the blame being put on extensions but what changed in the extensions between 10 and 11 to cause this?
I know on my work computer I was experiencing this plus I almost always have to click show more and wait for that lag to finish.
I was able to edit the registry to show all at the cost of 1 lag...so I guess a step forward?
Are you sure it's the corporate tracker? Maybe it's the copilot tracker, or maybe the Recall video recording? Maybe it's the Windows anti-virus, or even the corporate anti-virus. What about the Advertisement stuff and the web search?
It's hard to tell what makes a non-stock Windows install slow.
I have similar suspicions. I have a decent but not spectacular company Thinkpad. When I first got it, it was super-fast; it didn’t matter that sleep very quickly turned into an automatic shutdown, as it booted in mere seconds.
Gradually, over the past 9 or so months, it’s just become progressively worse and worse in a range of ways. It might be Windows updates, but the magnitude makes me suspect it’s layer upon layer of corporate management and security nonsense.
Could also be a temperature throttling problem caused by dust or a stuck fan. My old work Laptop suffered from that, and recovered after I cleaned it.
> I can almost guarantee this is from some endpoint management software your company installed.
I had the same issue with a loan machine from a client, super responsive onsite, but once I connected through a VPN from an external network, all the basic functionality in the file manager was brought to a halt. Even something as simple as right click on a folder to show a context menu would take several seconds.
The files were all local (also with Onedrive sync disabled) so I am almost positive it was whatever they were using for endpoint protection (Can't recall 100% but probably something from CrowdStrike).
Either you haven't been when context menus / explorer was blazingly fast or something odd happens there, since I can confirm that on brand new PC (128GB RAM, 9950X3D, 5090) with vanilla Windows 11 it still lags and annoys a lot after some linux distro.
Endpoint software is a blight. My company's M2 pro should have flown through the things i subject it to. But simple things like linting on many files is slower than my 8y old pc on a sata-SSD.
Often the software itself is fine but it makes it possible for the IT department to configure performance killing behaviours. SHA hash every file you open, execute specific actions if the a opened file or process matches specific heuristics, log everything.
Well the reason they install it is often not to enable the features you bought the license for, which is, on-the-fly scanning. It pushes all IO through a hose in case of windows defender.
I guessed the same thing. Probably the fault of employer-mandated software gumming things up. But since the only reason to run Windows is because my employer mandates it, almost all of my Windows experiences involve enterprise-managed lag in the extreme.
It may not exactly be Microsoft's fault, but it piles nicely onto a pre-disposition against them and all pro-MS IT departments who can't seem to tie their own shoelaces. It takes a maturity that is sometimes lacking in moments of frustration not to blame all the world's problems on MS.
on my corporate laptop as well as my own private surface laptop as well as my gaming rig does file explorer lag doing pretty much anything and the context menu can sometimes take like 10 seconds to open. this is a pretty wide spread issue you can see people mention this everywhere
> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
There's a guy that has written their own version of explorer that's so fast in comparison to the built-in, that you'd think they were cheating somehow because of everyone's experience with explorer.
And someone has written an IDE for C++ that opens while Visual Studio is on its splash screen.
And another that has written a debugger with the same performance.
And a video doing the rounds of Word ('97?) on spinning rust opening in just under 2 seconds.
Basically, everything MS is doing is degrading performance. Opportunities for regular devs to go back to performant software, and MS is unlikely to fix theirs in the foreseeable future.
> version of explorer that's so fast
https://filepilot.tech/
$250 for a version with updates past a year? yikes
For a lifetime license incl updates forever that seems quite reasonable to me. It's a bit over a year of Netflix.
In fact, given that it includes perpetual priority support (within a business day!) I expect the author's gonna change that soon, once he gets one of those infinitely demanding customers and realizes what a terrible mistake he made (inf support for a one-time payment, oops!). So better bite while it's hot!
The €40 option for one year of updates is a lot more economical and is still a perpetual license for the software itself.
Now I'm shocked by the cost of Netflix.
The monthly subscriptions always sound cheaper than they are
Don't forget the old sales technique, £3.99 < £4.00. What a bargain!!!
Imagine paying for a file browser. This is why windows will always win. They have the most docile userbase ever. They'd rather pay 250 bucks for a file picker than to change OS.
Hey Total Commander is free/shareware (if you can live with the nag screen) and superior to anything on any OS
My solution to the nag screen was that I never turned off my computer, just put it to sleep, so Total Commander was always running.
Interestingly, TC was one of the few software that I considered paying for, but in the end I didn't because they asked for too much information at the time. Not long later I switched to Linux, and I couldn't use TC there.
This is more of a macOS thing.
Windows users just don't pay and keep using Explorer.
If you use software that is $10k/year and Windows only, a few bucks here and there to improve your quality of life is a rounding error
I wonder if a lot of Windows users are also BMW drivers. If they're willing to shrug off $250 a year to be able to copy files efficiently on their computers, they are likely also to applaud the wonders of $50 a month for heated seats.
> BMW drivers
£50 for a heated seat, perhaps, but you also get by far one of the best turbocharged inline-6 engines ever put in a 4-door saloon, the S58. Analogous to Windows NT, a well-engineered kernel.
$250 (currently $200) is a single perpetual license. Annually it's $40/yr.
It's easy to lose a few minutes each day to Explorer shenanigans. For people making real money that adds up fast.
Double Commander is open source and no cost.
some folks about to make a decent amount of money if the trend wrt win11 continues
> $250 for a version with updates past a year? yikes It cannot handle CJK encodings too. what a joke
I've tried this a few times. Windows 10. Downloaded the 2MB file, double-clicked on it, and nothing happens. Same thing when I tried it a few months again. Put it in a command prompt and no output of an error.
I'm starting to worry I just launched something malicious.
The latter is normal on windows. Executables have a header flag which specifies they either use the terminal or not. If a terminal program is opened from outside a terminal, it opens a terminal window. If a nonterminal program is opened from a terminal, it instantly detaches.
After downloading, did you open its properties and "unblock" it?
woa!!
The problem is on windows you're competing directly against the guys who own the operating system. So even when there is a gap for a better file manager the one that microsoft makes is so entrenched and microsoft can make sure they always win. It sucks.
That was the argument used for IE/Edge. But eventually it got so terrible that the first thing everyone does now is install Chrome/Firefox/Brave.
They obviously have an advantage, but it’s not insurmountable to being garbage.
hilariously, the last time I had a new windows machine and opened up edge to download firefox I got some sort of message about giving edge a proper try first.
I found chrome was putting itself into "eco mode" on my Lenovo (work) laptop all of a sudden. Meant that waking up took FOREVER, and accessing a web page (required as part of a daily login) took 15+ seconds to load when first logging in, as opposed to a few seconds, which caused our password app to timeout at times, etc. Who the heck comes up with these ideas? "Eco mode" by default? And no way to disable it easily? I had to add an obscure switch to the chrome startup to make it run normally again.
On newer laptops, and I’ve seen this specifically on thinkpads) if the power supply you are using is not the correct wattage, the system will throttle down significantly. I started noticing this by looking at windows task manager and noticing the CPU would not scale above 0.8 GHz. Not sure if Chrome responds in the same way, but it’s worth looking into. Fix was easy, just get a proper wattage power supply (i went with oem)
A similar example: Microsoft's Windows Search function is so pathetic and slow, yet there's another little company who gives a blazing fast file search tool, that's available as (portable) freeware since 15+ years.
Everything Search: https://www.voidtools.com/
Everything Search uses the NTFS indexes to do blazing fast file or folder searches. It has a neat and clean interface, and no nagging ads (unlike.. cough, cough.. Windows 11). Everything Search is one of the first tools I install on any new Windows PC.
Amazing, perfect app! I use it frequently, and I love the response I get from customers or friends whom I turn onto it (or install it for). I also encourage others to donate to this developer. The sad thing is casual users would not even think of donating as they assume this type of feature should be (properly) built into the OS; so I’ve made sure to donate on behalf of users I’ve turned on to Everything. Great app!
I was overjoyed when I saw that Microsoft had bought out the small Winternals team (Winternals Software LP, founded by Cogswell and Russinovich, who exposed the 2005 Sony BMG CD copy-protection DRM) that gave awesome freeware "power tools" to tweak and monitor MS-Windows. Microsoft renamed it as SysInternals, and Microsoft has since maintained it well and still kept it all free.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/
Fun trivia: Mark Russinovich went on to greater heights, and he's CTO of Microsoft Azure.
I wish Microsoft would do the same for another amazing freeware "power tools" suite: Nirsoft Utilities. https://www.nirsoft.net/
I really don't know how Voidtools has survived all these years, by giving away their primary product (Everything Search) for free.
https://www.voidtools.com/
Everything Search is free, powerful and fast, and thankfully, unlike some other famous tools (CCleaner), it is not adware, spyware or malware. The only caveat, is that Everything Search's background indexing of drives requires administrative access, but user can run it without admin access, it's just that it would need to manually reindex (to add latest files/folders to its index database) on every run then.
https://www.voidtools.com/faq/
For years, I have wished that Microsoft would acquire Voidtools (give them a good chunk of money for all the years of service they gave to the world in the form of this awesome freeware Everything Search), and integrated it into Microsoft Windows Search (to make it a rival to MacOS's Spotlight search) to make it blazing fast and finally useful.
(Remember, Microsoft acquired Skype and integrated its capabilities into MS Teams, which is available free for personal use, with some limitations (60mins session limit, 100 participants).)
It was VERY common in the spinning rust era to already open (office, etc) applications in the background. I think the launch operation only allocated window resources and finished the job; all the hit the disk work was already precached in memory while the OS was doing the slow computer starting up / logging into the network steps and the user was off getting a coffee or something.
Same experience here, but I'm not sure it's just MS fault; companies have a way of installing a bunch of stupid software on top of one another, that you can't get rid of without admin rights, that continuously do things that slow the system down.
(And, you can have a tabbed file browser on Win7. I still have a Win7 box at home that works perfectly well and that does have tabs in file explorer. I think it was an addon I installed a while ago; don't remember exactly, but it works perfectly.)
It seems industry-wide these days.
What I’ve seen as an older-than-average developer is that the Agile movement has made it increasingly difficult to make time for paying attention to some of the more subtle aspects of user experience such as performance. Because I can’t predict how much work it will be accurately enough to assign story points to the task, and that means that this kind of work frequently results in a black spot on our team performance metrics.
CD makes it even harder because this kind of work really does need some time to bake. Fast iterations don’t leave much time to verify that performance-oriented changes have the intended effect and no adverse side effects prior to release.
That’s not agile’s fault. That’s the orgs fault.
We used to have a few days set aside regularly to fix things that would never get prioritised.
I think this is another of those spots where the difference between agile with a little an and Agile with a big À comes to the forefront.
Little a agile is about pushing back against dysfunctional business dynamics for the sake of humanistic goals like employees’ mental health and doing right by customers.
Big À Agile co-opts that, and is more about squeezing as much money out of everyone as possible while wearing the trappings of agile values to make it seem more palatable.
Microsoft is progressively making everything an instance of Chrome. They've seemingly altogether given up the notion of native platform rendering. The win32 api for native ui elements hasn't been touched in two decades. There have been a few failed attempts to move on from it like Siverlight, WinForms, UWP, LightSwitch, etc, but they never bothered to revisit their native UI library. So now everything is a Chrome instance.
And it's objectively terrible
Similar story here.
Started a new job about a year and a half ago and got a powerful laptop with a really top of the line CPU and GPU, 64 GB of RAM (Now upgraded to 96GB, needed for my work, even with these specs compile times are longer than I'd like...), and it was a terrible experience, coming from someone who's used to Linux having used it for a bit (started in 2013 with Ubuntu with a dual boot. Moved all-in to Arch in 2016, distro-hopped or played with different desktop enviroments/wms after that (Recently switched to niri), but all of which are leagues ahead of Windows 11 IMO. Only occasionally ran Windows on a spare device or a VM on the rare occasion I needed to, eg for work / school.)
Tons of issues, slow in some operations, weird bugs (in the explorer like you, or with my Bluetooth headphones, or other issues), and even occasional blue screens! It's not just my setup too, my coworkers have similar issues. Plus, it just isn't a nice environment to use.
At first, I tried to set up a nicer environment (as much as IT would allow). I installed PowerToys for QOL improvements, GlazeWM to emulate a tiling window manager setup, I tried debloating as much as I can, I installed Wezterm for my terminal (Why is Windows Terminal so hyped up? It seems like an extremely basic terminal emulator to me...), oh-my-posh theming for my shell, and several other things.
But every convenience program I added just noticeably slowed down my laptop, to the point I just gave up some of the niceties and lived with it. Why is such basic functionality able to be run so smoothly on a much weaker device on Linux, but struggle on Windows on a much more powerful device? I can only think of one reason...
More a reply to few fellow comments: I have few Win 11 hosts that I use. No management software other than just antivirus. 90% of them are super slow, on every hardware. The latest super-feature on one of them is empty Task Manager. It just doesn’t display a single process. Of course Process Explorer works, open faster and show all data without thinking how to display table with 500 rows for dozens of seconds.
> Half the time I can smack Esc and Snipping Tool will go away. The other half of the time, I have to mouse over and click the X to close it. There is no pattern to when Esc does/doesn't work.
What I have noticed is to let it load the snipping UI first and start listening for your keystrokes. If you hit escape really quickly, right after you accidentally hit print screen, it will not go away and require you to manually mouse over and hit the X. But if you wait for a second and then hit escape, it almost always registers my keystroke. It's almost like hitting escape really quickly just quits the keyboard listener instead of the actual snipping tool.
Your first gripe kind of sounds like DLP software is installed on the system and it is scanning files you're "accessing".
I don't know, my personal windows install which I use for photoshop, lightroom, and the occasional game also has similar issues, and it only has the included windows defender. I've noticed on many computers that whenever there are a bunch of files in a directory, the explorer grinds to a halt.
At work we use clownstrike for our driving-around-with-the-handbrake-on needs, which I have installed on both Linux and Windows, and the former flies while the latter lags all the time (I dual boot, so it's the same exact hardware). Doing something which is fully equivalent, like installing an IntelliJ update takes around a minute on Linux and many more on Windows.
The fan also comes on much more often on Windows than Linux, even though most of my job is done on remote servers via SSH. Under Linux I only hear the fan when I compile something. This morning I booted windows and the fan was running constantly while I was just catching up with a few mails in outlook.
If it's DLP then using alternative file browsers should also be affected, right? Which at least in my case it isn't.
On my company provided laptop with Windows 11 (previously Windows 10), the top three CPU usage was and is usually from Antimalware Executable, Microsoft Defender and MS Teams (or Crowdstrike). I don’t download files or get files from other sources often, yet these things keep doing busywork and slowing things down. Despite virus and threat protection running quick scans often and forcing a full disk scan every couple of weeks or so.
It’s almost as if these programs are people who ought to show that they’re doing something even though they’re just heating the room and running the fan.
Same here. ng install takes 2000x as long as on my similairly priced mac. Installing a package for any language locks up the laptop for indexing
I have the same specs in my work machine.
Task manager takes 10 seconds to load the list of processes. Right-click on the desktop takes about 1.5-2 seconds to show the 'new' context menu. Start menu is actually fast to start drawing but has a stupid animation that takes about half a second to fully load.
I sort of understand how the anti-consumer 'features' (ads) get added to a piece of software. But I have no idea how they manage to continuously degrade the experience of existing parts of the system for seemingly no one's benefit.
My wife recently got a new laptop. She mostly just uses office and the browser so I gave her some specs to look for SSD, 16GB ram, Lenovo should be good (fatal mistake I didn't specify the CPU). She went out and bought a cheap Lenovo laptop with a Celeron dual core and 16GB ram, SSD. It can barely run windows 11. Everything slows to a crawl, she can't be on a video call, and have a google doc open at the same time. It's insane and frankly should be criminal to sell such a poorly performing piece of hardware.
It's so bad that she actually switches to her old laptop from 10 years ago (still on windows 10, also a dual core) for video calls, and it performs way better.
The engineers working on Windows should be embarrassed. I may just try to load ChromeOS on it. Would be nice to get Windows out of my house for good.
> a cheap Lenovo laptop with a Celeron dual core
Yeah, those things are born e-waste. I'm surprised Intel even bothers. Even on Linux they would varely play an HD Youtube video if it weren't for the hardware acceleration. A dual core from several years ago, assuming it's a proper i5 or i7, will do a lot better.
Windows 11 doesn't make things any better.
> Even on Linux they would varely play an HD Youtube video if it weren't for the hardware acceleration.
Video decoding has always been a brutal workload, but that isn't Microsoft's fault. I had to replace my Thinkpad X220 with an X270 for no reason at all except h.265. It's a ULV i5 too, so the perf is almost identical to the old laptop's... until you watch video on it.
h.265 can get annoyingly heavy, but the better compression isn't coming from nowhere. But for less powerful machines, H.264 works just fine and works back far enough that even I got surprised. Even LGA 775 machines will do that just fine, and h.264 is more or less a constant lowest common denominator.
If it can't play a blu-ray off CPU, then it's either so old that DVDs were the media du jour, or it was never meant to be in a general-purpose computer. They'll do e-mail and Office in a pinch, and they'll play video within their limits, but venture outside for anything else, and it all comes crashing down.
Me and my fiancé both bought Lenovo laptops with 16GB RAM and 5000-series Ryzen, 500 GB SSD. They were on sale, and the price seemed nice.
Some of the Windows 11 features are laughably, hilariously slow. If I enter anything in the taskbar search, it will take a solid 6-7 seconds for the app to appear in the result. The result window will just be blank. If I press enter after having typed in, the app will start - but still, it is so, so laggy.
And some weird flicker when running certain applications. It was like that out of the box, and I feared I had gotten a defective screen - nope, only certain apps.
> I may just try to load ChromeOS on it.
If you wife would be OK with ChromeOS, basically all she needs is a browser. I just installed Linux on the computer my wife is using. For a while she was on Ubuntu and then once she got used to it, I replaced Ubuntu with Debian (because I use Debian everywhere: NUCs, laptop, dekstops, servers, hypervisor (Proxmox, which is debian), etc.). It's easier for me to just slap Debian everywhere but YMMV.
People have no idea the amount of people who nowadays only need a browser (and working sound/microphone: but that nowadays Just Works [TM] on Linux).
It's never been easier to switch people to Linux than it is today.
> If my computer goes to sleep, WSL becomes unresponsive. I have to save all my stuff and reboot to continue working.
Try wsl --shutdown. Works for me when WSL hangs for no apparent reason.
I've also noticed that, in my case, these hangs are somehow tied to Docker for Windows. Couldn't figure what triggers them so far, though. I just restart DFW and kill WSL when that happens.
Restarting the vmcompute service sometimes helps. Doing so completely blue/blackscreened my machine this morning so it just makes me more confident in WSL's low level hooks.
I vibe-coded my own apple system-6 style shell in rust and use that. If I don't like a feature, I change it. It is lightning quick, in it's (emulated) 1-bit glory. There's no requirement for you to use the built-in explore.exe to launch things, even for games. The graphics are decoupled from the shell so I use it for windows and linux.
If vibe coding your personal GUI utopia is too much, you can use something like Cairo - https://cairoshell.com/
I'd recommend Chris Titus' winutil to remove most of the crap. I use the recommended settings and also remove copilot and onedrive. Then from there you can open O&O Shutup10 and disable a few more "features".
It's just a band-aid not a solution, and you'll have to run it again after Windows updates and helpfully undoes your settings, but at least makes it usable.
https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/winutil
I'm definitely not defending Windows but when I ran Windows 10 Pro for 11 years straight, I had no problem with performance.
We're talking a 4 core i5-4460, with 16 GB of memory and an SSD running WSL 2, Docker Desktop, real work loads, video editing, etc..
It was very performant and never got in my way. I'd leave the computer on 24 / 7 and only the monitors turned off. It only got rebooted for forced Windows patches.
With that said, my hardware can't run 11 and even if I did patch around that, I'm choosing not to run 11 so Windows for me was over near the end of 2025.
I'm running Arch now on the same box and except for GPU memory leaks, it's quite snappy. CPU intensive tasks finish faster and disk I/O feels even faster than Windows. There's also unlimited flexibility to tweak things however I see fit. Gaming performance is substantially worse for the few games I play. No regrets, except for gaming.
If you had 16 GB of RAM, yeah Windows 10 was mostly fine. The laptop I had in high school was rocking 4 GB and a first-gen i5. Windows 7 was rock solid on that machine, but 10 brought it to its knees. Sandy Bridge fared much, much better, to be fair, but the jump from "4GB is enough" to "8GB is pushing your luck" was not pleasant, as I recall it.
Oh yeah, 4 GB would be really rough on Windows 10.
The machine I had before this one had 2 GB of RAM and I ran Windows 7 on it. It had a Core 2 Duo E6420 CPU and GeForce 9800 GTX+. I remember things being mostly ok for playing a bunch of games back then but struggled when I tried to run VMs which makes sense given 2 GB of RAM.
It was that machine that taught me not to skimp on RAM. The last few years of that machine's life started to get pressured pretty hard with memory requirements and having 4 GB would have solved all of those problems. That's why when I built this machine I went with 16 GB, back in 2014 still running Windows 7.
Windows does allow you to enter Chinese characters when you say your language is Chinese.
I have moved to Bazzite at home but it is ridiculous that you can't just use your language right away. A normal person would just bail out.
If you choose Chinese, all of the content is localized but you have to enable an input method and that doesn't even actually allow you to input Chinese characters!
It shows you a scrolling(!) pop-up that tells you you have to enable a different option in order to type in the language that you chose at the very beginning. Hope you didn't choose the wrong one out of ibus, fcitx and fcitx(wayland experimental) – whatever happened to scim, and xim, I miss editing environment variables.
Even the cheapest Android gadget can do this out of the box.
Your work laptop might have an excessive amount of "security" software installed that causes it to lag far more than it would normally without such bloated software installed that runs in the background and slows down practically every process you do with the machine.
I'm using it on a work-issued ThinkPad with 8 gigs of RAM and an Intel i3. It's fucking horrible
An i3 is a damn near OSHA violation.
> what does Windows 11 even do that KDE Plasma 5 wasn't doing a decade ago? How did it take this long to get a tabbed file browser?
Management features like application based firewall. Dedicated views in explorer tailored for common file types, automatic view type based on content, plus tile view. Proper title bar customisation. Contextual Ribbon toolbars and to be honest, good menus in general. Have a professional UI designer try KDE and I'm pretty sure they'll have a migraine. Also Win32 in general, Wayland still has a loooong way ahead of it.
A lot of these accounts seem anecdotal. I have a clean copy of win 11 iot ltsc running on my laptop and it runs well. The desktop management, included hyper V, wsl2 and awesome RDP make it a great platform to get work done. Most problems people encounter with Windows have to do with driver maturity. And in the case of a mega corp managed machine its all the “security” bs the put on there that slows you down to a crawl.Once you get stable drivers; I find Windows 11,with wsl as my shell, to be quite nice.
Well yes, it is anecdotal. After all, it's my personal experience, which is, by definition, an anecdote. At what point did I suggest the exact types of bullshit Win11 exposes me to are exactly the same as everyone else experiences?
About hitting the print screen button by accident. I have the same issue and like you I can sometimes get out of it by hitting ESC. I think this sometimes fails because the snipping app isn't in focus (even though it's covering the entire screen).
The trick I found to get out of it is to hit ALT+TAB. It ironically puts another app into focus and when that happens, the snipping tool exits. Snipping tool is pretty great though. I wish macOS had the same.
What's snipping tool have over macOS's super-shift-5 (or 4 or 3)? I would usually put Greenshot on any Windows box I'm gonna have to use a while, and that seems to pretty much have feature parity with all my slurp+grim Sway keybinds on GNU/Linux.
It's very minor but, with the Snipping Tool, the screenshot automatically ends up in the clipboard after dragging the box. As far as I know with macos I have to open the preview and copy it from there. There may be an option in macos to get the same behavior but I don't know about it.
My work laptop does the same thing. Pretty maxed out for a Dell but still can be slow, especially right click context menu. Someone else said it could be endpoint software (executable scanning?) which makes sense. things improved a bit after a I turned off the eye candy under appearance settings other than font rendering and shadowing. Might be worth a try.
Had the same issue with slow file explorer in Windows 10. A couple of things helped a bit, such as disabling "Show recently used files" and "Show frequently used folders". I also cleaned up the Quick access list. For some reason if you have a network share there it makes browsing local dirs slower, go figure. It's still not instant but a lot faster than the 3+ second delay.
I tried OneCommander and they're super fast, so it's not something slowing down disk IO, it's purely File Explorer.
Now I'm still struggling with closing chrome tabs being super slow sometimes.
Please try https://filepilot.tech/ Its like explorer but so much faster in every single way. I have it pinned on the taskbar, it launches quickly than a new explorer window.
Main one is no-multiline support atm. Which means that the icon view does not show full file name, list view etc are perfectly fine though.
Current problems I have with it are no native zip support, which means you must use 7-zip, winrar etc and set them as a defualt viewer for zips. Otherwise, double clicking zip opens the explorer.exe.
I'll be trying this tomorrow, thanks.
I noticed significant slowdown on my home computer, so I did some optimization - namely turning off some services.
AI related things, one drive (this could be one of the reasons file browser is slow), widgets on the screen like news and weather, some other optional/not needed things.
They added a lot of not needed crap to File Manager. I think it's almost better to install a third party one.
This is why I don't get so many of the "windows is fine" arguments here. It's always "Windows is fine if you run LTSC and dick around with the registry and disable these 37 specific services." If I'm going to have to futz with it constantly, why would I pay money for the privilege?
You can disable windows folder type detection to speed the laggy file explorer navigation. It’s a registry hack and so limited for corporate machines.
I swear windows is just full of sleeps and it doesn't matter how faster your system is.
It's more likely network calls that are taking a long time or timing out. A lot of developers insert function calls that under the hood hit HTTP servers, and it can take a few hundred milliseconds to stand up a new TLS connection and then however long it takes to send the request and get the response. It's also probable that the endpoints form an accidental microservice architecture in which case everyone is always hitting a different set of connections. This creates a perfect storm of having to reconnect to everything you hit occasionally which can create little slowdowns all over the place all without actually using CPU so it doesn't show up in any resource monitors.
HTTPS calls should be treated as calls to sleep() with undefined timings.
The real question is why is my file browser blocking on an http call? Oh right, tracking/telemetry/ads.
Microsoft Windows: Accidental Microservice Architecture Edition
> Windows 11's file browser lags when opening directories with more than 100-ish files. Windows 11's file browser takes a few seconds to open at all.
I've got bad news for you. Nautilus also lags when opening some directories.
Explorer file browser is just disaster. I am forced to use third-party browsing app when the directory contains hundreds of media.
It has happened since win7 or older but still not fixed.
Maybe investigate the background apps that are running on your laptop?
By the way, I just opened a directory that I hadn't accessed in months. It contains 10945 log files, and Windows Explorer displayed them instantly.
Your experience is very far away from mine. I don't experience any of these issues on a standard 32gb office laptop, or my home gaming machine.
> when opening directories with more than 100-ish files
99 files should be enough for everyone.
Honestly - I think it must be a laptop thing. I have a similar spec laptop [0] for work, and it's... borderline unusable. I can ignore the upsells, always online, etc but the OS is just fundamentally falling apart more and more every other release. If I unplug the power cable, it throttles itself to the point of being neutered, and if I try to put it to sleep it _very regularly_ will just stay awake and drain its own battery.
My work desktop on the other hand (i9, 64GB ram, 4080 GPU) is absolutely screaming and I have some of the same problems but they're nowhere near as bad.
I don't think I could genuinely buy another windows laptop.
[0] https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops-2-in-1-pcs/dell-xps-...
> if I try to put it to sleep it _very regularly_ will just stay awake and drain its own battery
Sadly Linux isn't any better on this front because it's a hardware issue. Laptop vendors have gotten terrible at managing sleep states. S0 sleep is a joke. I changed my laptop to hibernate on lid close after the second time it nearly cooked itself in my bag.
I have dual boot on decent laptop, doing nothing, on windows fan is always on, computing something? On Linux it is just silent
iirc the cause of context menu delay was there is an invisible animation I think.
The system is animating the menu opening, except there's no animation. So it just waits for a while doing nothing then the menu pops open.
Had similar issu. Windows 11 installed two gpu driver that run parallel. Cpu etc was on low but everything was lacking. did go to safe mode and deinstalled drivers and reinstalled them. Windows installed them again even with me doing everything it didnt... whatever now i have mac and it sucks also but doesnt lag that hard.
maybe it helps
> If Windows 11 struggles this badly on a brand new laptop that I'm certain would retail for $4000+, I can only imagine how miserable it is for everyone else.
I purchased a Surface Pro at one point, with the intention of using it for sketches and using Windows on it, thinking it'll be better because the hardware and OS is from the same organization. Nope! Slow out of the box, horrible thermal management and software bugs galore. Installed Arch with Gnome on it, ran better in most aspects. However, pen usage and touchscreen even after I tried my best to adjust it was worse than Windows, I guess they won there.
I didn't use to hate Windows, because at least it wasn't utterly broken, just stupid, but they're really in a deep decline lately. Maybe it's time for one of those "stop the press" type of moments where they have to stop, take a serious look and fix what they have as it currently feels impossible to use reliably.
> There is no pattern to when Esc does/doesn't work.
Its non-deterministic, as if developed with LLMs....
Possible but more likely it's an issue with focus, like the user's palm on those occasions coincidentally brushes the trackpad.
To be clear, I have no doubt Windows 11 is just as awful as GP makes it out to be. I'm luckily free to choose my OS and at this point wouldn't touch Windows with a 10' pole.
If it's Intel then it might not be fully down to Windows 11. The PC laptops are universally crap. I had a few latest ones, Ultra 9 and they are atrocious. Experience reminds me using a netbook in early 2010s.
I would refuse to work anywhere without a Mac. If x86 then it would have to be linux, as that would be passable (apart from fan noise).
Panther Lake and Lunar Lake are pretty good I'd say. Intel has been improving.
The Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake platforms are finally really good again, comparable to AMD. Fast and power efficient. Before Lunar Lake they were pretty much crap, I agree.
I am also subjected to Windows at work and I hate it. WSL is an okay experience until it just crashes and stops working.
The only reason I was forced on Windows was because they couldn't find an edge management system for Linux
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Corporate probably loaded up the laptop with work monitoring software, and some terrible AV software. Among other bloatware. A PC of your spec should run without noticeable delay, something else is going on there.
Having said that, Windows has made a lot of the basic functionality way to resource heavy.
Another common issue on corporate-issued workstation laptops is that they don’t install the proper GPU drivers. The basic ones that ship with the OS are awful, but work just well enough that people don’t notice that they’re missing something important.
KDE is bloated garbage too! Half of the OS didn't work. The only DE's that I haven't had poor experiences with are xfce, bspwm, i3/i3gaps, and xmonad. Note how 3 of these are tiling WMs.
KDE has been great for me on Fedora. What problems have you encountered?
KDE is the best. Everything they make is awesome, Im a big fan.
So much so I donate to them monthly.
This was me in 2022 or 2023. I have posted on HN about my shift a few times. I gave up with Windows 10 because you needed Windows Pro in order to make an "offline" account, I spent $2000+ for a gaming rig, and I couldn't add new users, one program told me to use the other program which brought me back to the original program... I had to go out of my way, buy a license just to make it work. I just went and installed Linux finally. I was on POP_OS! for a good year, but been on Arch Linux for one year plus now.
I know its a "meme" to talk about how great Arch is, but when you want the latest of something, Arch has it. I use EndeavourOS since it had a nicer simpler installer (idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro) and if you just use "yay" you don't run into Pacman woes.
Alternatively, I'm only buying Macs as well, but for my gaming rigs, straight to Arch. Steam and Proton work perfectly, if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
> if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
So much this. People like to moan about "oh game XYZ doesn't run so it's not reasonable for gaming". More games run on GNU / Linux than any gaming console. There are simply too many games that do run to give a second thought about the ones that don't, and it's been that way for years.
The giant bugbear in this conversation is always multiplayer. That's because almost all of the big players in that space currently favor rootkits in the form of overly invasive anti-cheat, which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
If you don't play PvP specifically, the rest of the library is significantly more open to you. Personally I have always favored single player experiences and indie games from smaller studios, and for the most part those run great.
It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.
So if you can go without those games or don't play MMOs that is rootkits then switch to force their hand.
Besides, them installing a rootkit on your machine is not an acceptable practice anyways. It's a major security issue. Sometimes we need to make a stand. Everyone has a line, where's yours?
MMOs are actually fine. WoW, FFXIV, RuneScape, all work great on Linux. They’re not really games that rely on hidden information, are not pvp first and need to simulate stuff on the server anyway, so can verify moves are valid there.
It’s the competitive progression shooters and ranked esports games that go in for the restrictive anti-cheat
Even within competitive shooters there’s still plenty that run great on Linux. 90% of my time spent gaming is on Overwatch or CS2, and I’ve found that both ran significantly better on my Debian 13 installation than they ever did on Win11.
And it's worth noting that CS2 is still the most played game on Steam. It has double the players of the second most played game, Dota 2, which also works on Linux. And that has double the player base of the number 3 game, Arc Raiders, which also works great on Linux.
The idea that you'll be missing out is ill founded. Yes, there are some games that won't work. PUBG, Bongo Cat, Rust[0], and EA Sports FC 26 are the ones on the top 10 multiplayer list. But it's also not like you don't have plenty of massively popular games to choose from.
I'll even say don't switch to Linux, just stop playing these abusive games. Honestly, if you're unwilling to change OSes but willing to do this then people that want to jump ship can. We all win from this behavior. Even you as it discourages Windows from shoving in more junk and discourages publishers like EA from shoving in massive security vulnerabilities like rootkits. I mean we've all seen how glitchy many AAA games are, you really think their other software isn't going to be just as unpolished and bug ridden?
[0] Apparently works with Linux servers? https://www.protondb.com/app/252490
P.S. If anyone wants to check for yourself:
This is true in principle but most gamers are just gonna take the path of least resistance. If they can't play fortnite on Linux (I'm using an example, I don't know if it's actually unplayable on Linux) then they will use whatever OS lets them play.
People have been saying "vote with your wallet" every time gaming companies do something anti consumer like day one dlc or buggy releases (don't pre-order!) or $90 games, but gaming companies continue to push the envelope on what gamers will pay for because gamers keep paying for it.
It's a sad reality.
Take a step back. Why do people want to play Fortnite so much and not anything else?
Because their friends play Fortnite, for example? Multiplayer is often social, so "just play something else" turns into "just get new friends".
There's another way. Only a small portion of friends need to change to pull the rest of the group. Pull them to a game that runs on Linux.
Don't do it like "let's play this game because it runs on Linux" do it like "let's play this game because it's fun".
If you want to be the one to lead this change you have to do extra work. Dual boot Linux and find a game that's fun that you can do online. Find the other friend or two in your group that will do the same (at least play the game, Linux is optional but encouraged for this subset). Just play together for a bit, give it a trial run. Then when playing the other game with the larger group say "hey, so and so and I have been playing this game, you guys should play with us sometime". They don't have to install Linux, just play a new game that their friends are already playing. That's why they're there, to play games with their friends. Don't try to get them to switch to Linux, just play games with your friends. You might have a holdout but if most people move then everyone will. But if you want to do that move you have to find what works and at least one other friend to give it a trial (who won't need to do as much work as you). That's how you do it. No crazy scheme and honestly not massive amounts of work either. Just the normal process of finding new games to play with one constraint. It just seems complicated because I stated the process explicitly.
I don't play a lot of online games anymore, but when I did, it wasn't just because friends were playing it. It was because it was fun, it was part of the cultural zeitgeist, it's popular, the community is fun, etc. You can't really replace something like that with just "another game," no matter how fun the other game is.
Maybe you're obsessed with PUBG or Battlefield and then yeah, Linux isn't going to work for you. That's okay! But looking at the numbers, for most people, they can still be a part of all the cultural excitement. It's not going to work for everyone, and that's okay! If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. But I want to make sure we can distinguish real blockers from ones Microslop and EA want you to believe in.
I think this is less of a blocker than you might think. Honestly, in my experience smaller communities tend to be more fun. They develop their own close knit culture. You've been on HN a long time and seen it grow. Isn't that a similar reason you come here? You're right, but again, I think there are fewer blockers than you think. I can't tell you if those blockers are real or not because what is a blocker comes down to you and your personal interpretations of all those variables. But if you're frustrated with Windows and the system, why not give it a try? You don't even have to switch to Linux to pressure the studios to change. Just spending more time playing games like Counterstrike or Arc Raiders than games like PUBG or Battlefield. And if you play more games like the former you make it easier for others that are thinking about making the jump. But hey, if PUBG or Battlefield is your jam and you don't want to try anything else, then no worries. You do you.There's one more important thing I want to bring up. I think it is important to ask "where is your line?" How much junk can Winblows shove in before you're willing to make sacrifices? Is EA installing a rootkit enough of a security concern where you won't take it? What is? You don't need to tell me what the answers are to these questions. What's important is that you yourself know where these lines are beforehand. The lines are personal and unique to you. People are going to have other lines than you and that's completely fine. I just ask you think about what conditions would cause you to make sacrifices? That way if they happen you can respond.
[0] https://www.protondb.com/
[1] https://steamdb.info/charts/?tagid=3859
> Looking at the most played multiplayer games on Steam
Note that this is skipping over some extremely popular games which aren't on Steam. Notably Fortnite, Roblox, League of Legends, Valorant, and everything else from Riot Games, none of which work on Linux. From the Steam examples there's also some grey areas, GTA5 singleplayer works but multiplayer does not, and Counterstrike works on official servers but not on Faceit servers, where a lot of serious competitive play happens.
League of Legends is the only thing keeping me on Windows
You're right to bring up the limits, but I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not trying to say that everyone can and should switch. But I am saying that the costs are probably less than one might think.
The costs of switching can only be answered at the individual level. No one can answer for you. But people can state their experiences and help you understand the costs and benefits.
Let's make sure we can accurately understand the costs and benefits and differentiate from imaginary ones.
I also said that you can take a stand without switching to Linux. Maybe the costs are too high for you right now. But maybe the costs of meeting up with your friends to play Dota rather than League is easy. At the end of the day the costs are due to the network effects. You can reduce those costs slowly and make it easier for others to jump ship without you needing to, which makes it easier for you to jump ship in the future if things change. The same is true for social media. Maybe you can't break from Instagram as you have too many contacts where that's your only way to communicate with them. But you can still encourage others to text you, Signal message you, or whatever. This still reduces the power of that network.
Here's the thing: the less sticky platforms are the better it is for everyone. I'm not going to tell you that you aren't going to have to put in more effort, but I will criticize you if you think that effort is insurmountable. I will also say that this is also part of our social duty. If something like using Signal instead of Instagram to communicate with your friend because they want to is "too hard" for you, then I envy the life you have where such trivial actions are your biggest concerns. If trying new games with friends who want to try new games is "too much" for you, then I think you should question if you're an addict.
I'm not saying you have to switch. I'm not saying you have to play certain games and not others. But you do have to be open to changing things and recognize that if you don't then you're creating a doomed self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're unwilling to have the slightest inconveniences then the enshitification and dystopia is on you. If you are unwilling to have the slightest inconveniences then you have no right to complain as you are the one preventing that change. But also, if you don't have any of those concerns of enshitification and tech dystopia then you have every right to stand your ground and not be inconvenienced. But I want to make the conditions clear. We live in a society. The society has a duty to you and you have a duty to the society. You don't just get to take and give nothing back.
First off, a hell of a lot more of those top 50 are unplayable. But more importantly the thing that you are ignoring is that every single one works on Windows. By choosing to use Linux you are choosing to not be able to play these games and an unknown number of future games for... what? If you only have a PC to play games with your friends, what could possibly be more important to you than the ability to play games with your friends?
This isn't about me though. I game on Linux. I love it. My original reply was to this in your comment
> It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.
The whole point of this subthread is that companies are not going to make Linux compatible games as long as there are customers OK with installing root kits on their companies to play their games. And most gamers are ok with that line being crossed. It sucks for the rest of us, but capitalism gonna capitalism.
I apologize for misunderstanding your comment, but I hope mine still stands to help others recognize the issues you brought up aren't as large as some may actually believe. I agree with you, companies that abuse us, the users, want to amplify that fear. It empowers them. It's why I am encouraging anyone who reads my comment to ask themselves where that line is. Personally I'm with you, the line has already been crossed. I've made the move and don't regret it for a second. Nothing changes for the better when no one is willing to take the first step.
No worries, and no I completely agree with you on all fronts.
There are lots of fun games in the cultural zeitgeist.
> Don't do it like "let's play this game because it runs on Linux" do it like "let's play this game because it's fun".
Indeed! i have some online and irl buddies who aren't on linux that i've got playing games like veloren with me, simply because they are good games. i've got loads of hours in games like veloren, luanti, xonotic, pokeMMO, and osu! for example lol and encourage everyone to check those games out if they're up their alley. :)
You assume I have friends. Or at least, friends that care about video games.
Besides, more likely is that I leave to do my own thing, 0-1 peers joins me for a bit, then we all kinda drift away. Friendships in this era are much more ephemeral.
I want to step away from the conversation about Linux
Honestly, I'm disheartened to hear this. Frankly, those don't sound like friends, or at least close friends. If a friendship can evaporate by the simple act of wanting to try another game, then it barely seems like a friendship and it seems like those will evaporate as soon as the next popular game comes about. I don't want to tell you to abandon your existing friends but I would encourage you to find friends you can have stronger bonds with. To have closer relationships. Hard truth is you need to put in work to make this happen. It doesn't matter what games you play or on what platform: everyone deserves to have deep human relationships. I really do hope you can find some friends. I hope the friendships you do have are stronger than you have conveyed because frankly, as humans, we all need close friends.
That's most how most of my life has been in a nutshell; it isn't limited to games. Schools,college, old coworkers. A lot of the glue comes undone the moment you need to move on. I'm a late Millenial, but the advent of social media among Gen Z gave us the ability to connect more intimately than ever over the most niche topics. But at the cost of losing the deep bonds you'd normally form then bundled with a community based on proximity.
I've had long conversations with some former guild mates yet can't point you to a name or face. I know quite a few never even lived in my country. But things loosen up once the game shuts down or one of us needs to move on. It's neat in some ways, hollow in others.
On the larger scale, it's why local community is also weaker than ever. No one really puts and effort to come down to community events, or they may come once or twice and never again. Those gatherings are also less frequent than ever, often once a month. You can't really form a deep bond meeting once a month. So meetups end up frustrating in their own way (at least, the tech meetup. Maybe a run club would be different).
I've even heard notions that it's easier to find a mate than a close friend these days. I can completely believe it.
I'm also in my 30s so I get it. The only real advice I can give is that it just takes more work to maintain friends as we get older. I had to be the one reaching out rather than waiting for others to reach out to me.
The other thing is recognize where friendships came from. Most of it was just being physically near people. Sitting in the same classrooms day to day. If work doesn't create that space (or isn't good enough or you want to distance from work) you need something else that does the same thing. Join a club. Set up weekly beers with your friends. Or literally anything that puts you in the same physical space with the same people, routinely. A friend of mine gets together with his gamer friends once a year and they socialize off the game too.
The convenience of social media is also its weakness. The ease of connecting makes it just as easy to disconnect.
Real friendships require work. That's true of any relationship. I'll tell you my friends can be annoying and exhausting, but I love them and I'll gladly put up with their shit to keep them around. After all, who else is going to put up with my bullshit? lol
>Real friendships require work. That's true of any relationship.
indeed. Perhaps that is part of my frustration. Friendships can also be a 2 way street, and it can feel like I'm putting in a lot more effort than the other party when it comes to trying to form them. I don't expect 50/50 effort, but when it's 95/5, are they a friend or simply a familiar guest?
Maybe I need to accept that the tech circles here aren't going to have that deep bond and expand. But I'll admit that the job hunt also slowed down my efforts to break out of my comfort zone.
I feel your pain, as someone in their mid-30s, and also a new dad. It's trite to say that it's hard to make friends in your 30s but it really is true. Between career, family, and just day-to-day life, it's really hard to form connections that are any more than just superficial.
What works for me is finding communities. I participate in Toastmasters, which meets every week (one meets twice a month), and it's a good way to make connections with people and get to know them better. It's also fun because there's people of many walks of life. Retirees, college students, business owners, executives, everyone in between. It's a great way to meet people I probably wouldn't have otherwise met in tech circles.
The market for multiplayer games, shooters especially, is already a mess, because people don't want to play a game that doesn't have an infinite pool of players to matchmake into, or a game that doesn't have all their cosmetics, or... etc. etc.
So this ends up being easier said than done. I've had success, but that's my friend group out of however many.
Try to find a shooter with a playerbase that doesn't use EAC/etc. - it's a crapshoot, unfortunately. You've got Valve's stuff and one or two outliers, but if those don't meet your group's genre needs, you're whomped.
i like a few multiplayer shooters, fortnite being one of them. i also exclusively use gnu/linux on my machines, so i got around this issue of games like fortnite/battlefield/etc issue a long time ago by simply doing what i've always done for years, playing these on xbox. i even 'stream' these games to my linux machine from my xbox if i want to play them from the computer with the xbox controller, and can join and create xbox live parties through the xbox web interface.
i only do this for those couple of games i play with friends that won't support linux because of the aforementioned rootkit it wants to run on windows machines. console for those games, and all my other games run happily either through steam+proton or natively on linux, and there are a fair few FOSS games with amazing multiplayer. i love luanti, xonotic, openarena, veloren, etc, and play them frequently with some friends. :)
1. The audience is mostly kids. They can't buy any premium games easily (and is the lens for the rest of my points)
2. Network effects. Works as well on them as any of us. Especially in a world that makes it more and more hostile to have them meet IRL.
3. It's a generation raised on "forever games". They are used to games they pick up and will continually play for years. Games that will always provide new stuff for them. They fundamentally have different habits from Millenials.
4. Mobile support. So many kids play on mobile. So they are even more isolated from the consple market.
I empathize with the question. But you are essentially asking *why do people want to use instagram and not any other one of millions social media app?*
I can't answer that, but probably similar reason why anyone plays any game. It's fun, their friends play it, etc.
I don't personally play fortnite. But substitute fortnite for any DRMd multi-player game (or MMO).
Even this framing is silly, if you have a PC to game there are not enough pros to choose Linux. You are giving up the ability to play some popular games and increasing the amount of effort required to play another chunk of them in exchange for what? A snappier file browser? Fewer anti-consumer dark patterns? It's not about "path of least resistance" it just flat out isn't worth it.
> Fewer anti-consumer dark patterns
> isn't worth it
This is a gross reduction of why people choose Linux. People don't choose it just for a snappier file browser and fewer anti-consumer dark patterns.
1. games that install what amounts to be rootkits on my computer are not ok 2. windows potentially spying on my data without my consent is not ok
If you wanna label these as dark patterns, that's fine, but let's not pretend that this behavior is ok.
I like playing games. But I like privacy and security more than playing games, which is why I have a linux gaming machine and a PS5. Some people would rather just play games and not worry about the other stuff, which is understandable for the reasons you mentioned.
This is overestimating the amount of effort involved to game on Linux, imo. It is true that there are a couple games using kernel-level anticheat which preclude their working on linux, but for the most part the effort required to play games on Linux now is zero if it's a Steam game and almost zero elsewhere.
Rust on Linux only works for Linux based servers https://www.protondb.com/app/252490
Apex Legend used to work but doesn't anymore (still marked Silver) https://www.protondb.com/app/1172470
Delta Force used to work but also doesn't anymore (still marked Bronze), people are tinkering with config files but nothing seems to work https://www.protondb.com/app/2507950
NARAKA: BLADEPOINT is working but requires custom Proton, some tweaked settings, launch options, etc https://www.protondb.com/app/1203220
GTA V public lobbies don't work, requires you to tweak launch options, disable battleeye anticheat, seems to just not work for some people. https://www.protondb.com/app/271590
BG3 also seems to require a custom Proton and tweaked settings for some people https://www.protondb.com/app/271590
It goes on and on these were just from the first few games sorted by player count. Much of the tweaking seems to be different person to person, sometimes it just works sometimes it's Nvidia's fault, sometimes it's something totally different. There's a "recommended for tinkerers" option for reviews. To be clear, every single one of these works right out of the box first time on Windows.
The line is
Here's what they mean Here is the sane equivalent line People are copy pasting settings and sharing but not actually looking at any docs. Disabling DirectX12 is going to give you a pretty good success rate of making a game work if it doesn't work out of the box.Here's a useful resource for understanding the settings. Use this before you ask the AI: https://github.com/GloriousEggroll/proton-ge-custom
Also, let's be clear about what those rankings mean on ProtonDB
I'm not trying to say everything works on Linux. It doesn't. But let's also not pretend that it is worse than it is. That's the same error in the other direction. Linux is not the right choice for everyone, but it is a good choice for many people.You're implying that 'clicking the cog icon > properties > and then copy pasting some text into a text box' is overly burdensome. To be frank, if you believe that then not only is Linux not for you, but neither are computers, and I really really am curious why you're on a website called "Hacker News".
Yeah, this is why everyone has such a low opinion of Linux nerds.
We're on Hacker News...
If talking techy is annoying to you, you're on the wrong forum
I switched to console gaming years ago. I can still play any major release while having whatever OS I want on my computers.
I did this and was happily Windows-less for quite a few years. I ended up building a PC with a big GPU and so I switched back to PC gaming with a Windows installation alongside Linux, but I still think the console route is a great option.
At this point, I think quite a few people are basically treating their Windows desktop as a console.
I'll have to remember that one, that's a good way to put it.
>Sometimes we need to make a stand. Everyone has a line, where's yours?
I just don't really play multiplayer to begin with. So I was never on the spectrum.
But tens of millions are. They won't even be aware of what's happening. That's why this remains.
>It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.
Nope. Not Nadella. He'll kill windows in a heartbeat.
But standing on principle is too hard!
> which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
It's more that there's no sensible way they could do it even if they wanted to. Emulating the Windows kernel internals is well beyond the scope of what WINE is trying to do, and even if they did do it, there would be no way for the anticheat vendors to tell the difference between the AC module being sandboxed for compatibility versus sandboxed as a bypass technique. Trying to subvert the AC in any way is just begging to get banned, even if it's for beingn reasons.
As a competitive old school arena FPS guy, I have also had a very hard time getting the same smoothness and low latency (input, output, whatever it is) on Linux. The games I play are very fast and twitchy, and milliseconds matter.
There seems to be too many layers and variables to ever get to the bottom of it. Is it the distro itself? Is it a Wayland vs. X11 thing? Is it the driver? The Proton version? Some G-SYNC thing? Some specific tweak that games based on this game engine needs?
I've had better luck since the switch to Wayland. I don't play many FPS games but mouse input & overall smoothness for strategy games has been great. Check your mouse settings, you might need to set a higher USB sample rate. Piper is a frontend for adjusting them.
Thanks! I have not put much effort into mouse settings.
> Is it a Wayland vs. X11 thing?
Yes, most likely. Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11, whereas KDE and GNOME's wayland sessions are both buttery smooth out of the box.
Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.
> Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11... Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.
Weird. I don't use KDE's compositor, and -AFAIK- WindowMaker doesn't have one. When in either KDE or in WindowMaker I don't have stuttering with either fullscreen, borderless "fullscreen", or windowed games... everything is as smooth as it is in Windows. Having said that, I do know that -when using KDE- some fullscreen games get jittery as all shit if a notification pops up and remain that way until the notification disappears. I expect that that performance problem would go away if I was using the compositor... but I don't want to spend the VRAM on it.
I use AMD graphics cards, so it might be an Nvidia thing that you're seeing. It also might be a "Your Linux distro simply stopped shipping good xorg installs" thing. I'm running Gentoo Linux which continues to ship updated versions of xorg and supporting software. [0]
[0] I've heard people running Debian and Debian-derived distros report X11 behavior that absolutely does not match what I've been seeing for years... so some percentage of the "X11 can't do $THING" when it really, really can must be coming from distros that ship either dramatically out-of-date or severely crippled xorg installs.
X11 has basically no development anymore. That means regressions are entirely ignored.
I switched my Gentoo box from X11 to Wayland three years ago at this point.
It's shocking that people still install X11 as a default in 2026 except with very old hardware.
> X11 has basically no development anymore.
Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.
> That means regressions are entirely ignored.
Should I ever actually have a problem, and it's something that I can't (or CBA to) fix, and my distro's maintainers don't want to try to fix (and then tell me that upstream will never fix), then I'll look more closely at XLibre. XLibre may or may not be a dumpster fire at that point, who knows? If it is a dumpster fire, then I'll look around for other alternatives.
> It's shocking that people still install X11 as a default in [TYOOL]
Nah. It works fine for what I'm doing. I don't do anything that depends on Wayland. The shocking thing would be if I were to waste a ton of time chasing the new shiny... especially when those responsible for the new shiny have been lying for the past 10+ years about how it's ready for everyone's general use. [0]
[0] Perhaps it's ready now, after nearly eighteen years in development. I can't rely on the statements of those responsible for the project to tell me, and I CBA to go searching for (and evaluating the trustworthiness of) information on the topic.
> Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.
Yea these are security updates but the eco system requires a lot of desktop manager scaffolding in user space. That has basically stopped. It's baffling why you would run X11 today. The X11 emulation layer for Wayland works great too by the way.
Just as one example when you screen share from discord or zoom or Google meets there's now a pop-up that asks you to select the screen or window you wish to latch on to for streaming. This provides some security. With X11 anything can just take a screenshot at any time. Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore. As someone that made the switch three years ago I get how you might think the old system is better but in reality you haven't tried the new one so you don't really have a way to compare. I noticed so many quality of life fixes that I can't even imagine running X11 anymore.
> It's baffling why you would run X11 today.
As I mentioned:
> Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore.Really? If true, I don't seem to run any of them. I've certainly not noticed anything I've been running over the past couple of decades suddenly stop working on X11. Given that QT, GTK, FTLK, and other cross-platform GUI toolkits support X11, these must be particularly special programs.
> Just as one example[, screensharing...]
Sure, it is a bit nicer to be able to control which windows which other programs can see. I've been watching the slow-moving, many-years-long shitstorm that has been "actually get screensharing that works the way ordinary people need it to". It's been quite a show.
Thing is, I do know that the X Access Control Extension was standardized in ~2006 and updated through 2009 with the aim to make additional fine-grained access control modules [0] easy. I don't know how long it would have taken to use what existed (or even write something new) and update the major Desktop Environments with tooling to manage it... but I suspect it would have taken far less than seventeen years.
> I noticed so many quality of life fixes...
I'm sure that were I 16, I'd believe that I cared very much about that. Now, -mumble decades later- the fanciest things I want are OpenGL and Vulkan support with performance at least on par with what you get from Windows, a window manager that lets me Alt+mouse-button to move or resize a window, functioning global hotkeys that I can command to run arbitrary programs (and that I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently), and functioning screen-sharing (that can I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently). And it's so, so silly for me to feel the need to mention anything other than Alt+mouse-button. You'd think that the rest would be "table stakes", but the Wayland development process has demonstrated that many folks disagree.
[0] Ones that could -for instance- prevent undesired keyloggers and screenshot tools
The problem is as soon as you run something new and it doesn't scale properly in X11 you're gonna be making a bug report instead of using what everyone else is using. Currently just with the screen sharing thing it's not even just graphical. There's also updates for Pipewire so you can select the audio output you wish to stream with your video feed. That dialog simply doesn't exist at all in X11. You probably don't even know it exists. It's been feature complete now for YEARS. There's a reason that Valve is using Wayland on SteamOS. It's cause it's feature complete now and they are working on stuff like HDR which won't work at all on X11. I'm guessing that X11 support will start to be dropped in the next few years by major code bases. It's hard for me to even explain some of the bugs I saw with X that disappeared overnight when I switched to Wayland. You talk about OpenGL and Vulkan support but hilariously that's what I'm trying to explain to you has *better* performance now than even Windows.
Just basic stuff wayland has that X11 will never have:
- No screen tearing by default - Proper vsync - Lower latency for input → display - Per-monitor refresh rates (144Hz + 60Hz works correctly) - Fractional scaling is actually correct (no blurry hacks)
Seriously, move on.
> The problem is as soon as you run something new and it doesn't scale properly in X11...
QT, GTK, FLTK, and friends handle scaling correctly. Perhaps in the future there will be a Wayland-only GUI library, but I'm not sure why anyone would bother when there exist Wayland backends for the major existing ones.
> Pipewire
I don't use it. I use JACK2 with a PulseAudio fallback for Steam games and other programs that don't know how to hook into JACK.
> - No screen tearing by default
If you're using an AMD graphics card, the TearFree option gives you this. If your distro hasn't enabled it by default, then it's two minutes work, and work that I did years ago.
> - Per-monitor refresh rates
The rest of your concluding list is just as poorly-informed.I know what you mean, though I have a device running SteamOS though and it runs extremely smoothly, the latency is no different than my windows PC (on titles where it can achieve the same framerate).
I'm sure that it must be possible to replicate whatever optimisations SteamOS has on other distros, but unfortunately I am not sure what those are exactly.
> The games I play are very fast and twitchy, and milliseconds matter.
Out of curiosity, what games are those? I wonder if I also play a subset of them.
The Quakes! Quake Live and Quake Champions mainly.
Ah. Yeah, I play games very much like that (but not those specific ones). I also play rhythm games, which require precise timing.
Like this guy mentions [0], for all but one of the games I've tried, [1] I see comparable or superior performance to Windows.
I'm running AMD hardware, and I'm using KDE without a compositor on Xorg (that is, not on Wayland). I strongly expect that I've successfully disabled KDE's compositor because I seem to get the same performance when I use WindowMaker, which has never had a compositor.
[0] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46799656>
[1] That game is the Deus Ex that takes place in Prague... I think it's Human Revolution. It's mind-boggling how slow it is.
Thanks for sharing
Sure?
You should only ever be using Wayland from now on.
> That's because almost all of the big players in that space
To the OP's point-- there are soooo many games nowadays, that if you and your friend group can skip some of those "big players," there are still hundreds of multiplayer games to play.
> ...which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.
I mean, several of the major anticheats can be configured to work just fine on Linux. [0] It's up to the game dev whether or not it's permitted. So, yeah, unless the game is one where its dev makes huge blog posts about how "advanced" its anti-cheat is (like Valorant or the very latest CoD/Battlefield games) it's quite likely that multiplayer games will work just fine on Linux.
And if they don't, and the faulty game is a new purchase on Steam, then ask for a refund and tell them that the game doesn't work with your OS. Easy, peasy.
[0] I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux. On Linux, I play THE FINALS, Elden Ring, and a couple of other EAC-"protected" games without any troubles. I have perhaps-unreliable memories that at least one of the games I play uses Denuvo, which is only sometimes used as anti-cheat but does use many of the same techniques as kernel-mode anticheat.
> I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux.
That's no secret, but the catch is that the Linux version is much, much easier to bypass. That's why some developers choose not to enable it, or in the case of Apex Legends, enabled it but later backtracked and disabled it again.
> That's why some developers choose not to enable it
That's an excuse. It's mostly incompetence or more often than not the company doesn't think it's worth the effort. With more Linux users, the balance will eventually shift from "fuck them" to "we have to figure out a way".
Well yeah, it always comes down to money. Even on an indie level Linux support is a commitment.
https://reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/e2ww5s/mike_rose_linux...
Now if you do care about quality, having a committed, technical audience giving quality big reports is a godsend. But that's not where we are this decade rife with layoffs and rampant outsourcing in the industry.
You’re posting an argument from 6 years ago. Not including Steam OS, the Linux market share has almost quadrupled since then (to ~3.2%); including Steam OS, it’s up to ~24%. And continues to trend upwards.
You also don’t need to arbitrarily support Linux. It’s not difficult to say “this has only been tested on Fedora, Ubuntu, POP, and SteamOS; other distributions are unsupported officially”.
> You also don’t need to arbitrarily support Linux.
Right. The most one needs to do is to support Proton and let Valve sort the rest out.
Kernel-level anti-cheats are considerably more complicated to make for Linux for obvious reasons like lack of ABI stability in kernel space.
Most game studios pay someone else to make the anti-cheats and many already have Linux versions that the studios choose to not enable.
Besides, if your anti-cheat only ever looks at the system level, it'll easily be bypassed by hardware cheats. At some point I think anti-cheats will have to "know" the game to be able to detect anomalies. It's the only way to effectively stop many categories of cheats.
> ...but the catch is that the Linux version is much, much easier to bypass.
Shrug. Rumor has it that the Windows version is already fairly trivial to bypass.
Oh, it absolutely is; if your product doesn't update its EAC bits regularly then it may as well not use EAC at all. Even still, there are known ways around it.
Even PVP is starting to “just work” via Proton. Arc Raiders runs just fine on Linux and is a strictly PvP game. Over time I think this will be less and less of a problem.
Arc Raiders is a PvPvE game, like most extraction shooters.
Still has an anti-cheat, they just bothered to allow Linux support.
Companies don't do this out of laziness/incompetence, but even some large anti-cheats work on Linux and some games simply choose to not enable it (cough, Tarkov, cough). Their problem, I'm no longer gonna play games that don't work on Linux.
Funnily enough the best FPS game ever (Counter-Strike) runs absolutely fine on Linux. Thanks Valve!
As far as I know, all the anti-cheat options for Linux are not kernel-level, which means that they are drastically less effective at their intended purpose. That's why so many competitive multiplayer games choose to not enable it.
Its not that they refuse to support the anti-cheat rootkits, its that its really difficult to emulate or abstract kernel level code. If you are using kernel level anti-cheat, you are just asking for trouble all-around.
Vote with your wallet, as the saying goes. If you quit paying money for the privilege of installing a rootkit, maybe they'll stop selling rootkits.
Lot of wallets are voting for AC, sadly. Sometimes the tyranny of the majority is a real thing.
BattlEye works on linux nowadays, so there definitely is progress in this direction!
The greatest PvP game, DOTA, works on Linux, and once you get hooked on that you'll never want to play another PvP game.
> oh game XYZ doesn't run so it's not reasonable for gaming
People tend to generalize, but what they probably mean is "it's not reasonable for gaming for the games I play.
I haven't fully switched over yet because the games the combo of the hardware I have + the games I play regularly, still give me issues vs. Windows. Getting them to run isn't the problem, but I haven't been able to solve miscellaneous crashes, lag, lower frame rates, etc.
My next PC upgrade will probably be getting rid of my Nvidia 1660 super and getting something AMD for less headaches.
> People tend to generalize, but what they probably mean is "it's not reasonable for gaming for the games I play.
This. The corollary is also that people take the such quips way too literally.
I, personally, don't play that many games, and those that I do play tend to run faster on Linux (with an AMD GPU, which I bought specifically to avoid nvidia headaches).
But I still game on Windows. Why? Because I still have a Windows box, "because Linux is not reasonable for photo editing". I actually daily drive Linux, but I can't be assed to move from Lightroom and photoshop, so I still keep a windows pc under my desk. I just play games on it because it's much beefier than my 5 yo ryzen U laptop, and since I don't interact with that box all that much, I didn't feel like partitioning my smallish drive for no tangible benefit. My laptop is more than enough for all my other needs.
Ok, if you want to be stubborn about it then leave Windows on a partition and only start it when you want to play that one game. Problem solved.
In many ways, moving to Linux is like starting to live on your own. Your mommy might be a better cook than you, but is that a good enough reason to keep living in your parents' basement?
Win partition will make you want to cry.
Win insists on bootlocker/secure boot, meanwhile most of the Linux doesn’t boot with it or you have to go though hell and back to install unsigned drivers (nvidia, gentle-yall).
I’d all say that Linux is like living in a car with 0 euros and saving up for a house. Simple user can scrape by, but mowing dev work life to Linux is much harder than to Mac. VPNs, inconsistent distro support for weird work stuff and such will make you spend days to weeks of unpaid overtime to get comfortable
Linux can handle BitLocker & Secure Boot just fine. The problem with dual booting in that configuration is rather that every time Linux updates the boot loader, Windows will freak out and stop booting until you enter the recovery key for BitLocker. This can be prevented by first booting into Windows to disable BitLocker until the next reboot and then installing the Linux updates, but in practice I find that I forget about it all the time with my dual-boot laptop (which spends most of its time booted into Linux).
This is a solvable problem and there's even pacman hooks around to do it for you
But also don't blame Linux. Even your comment says the problem is Microsoft. We need to be collectively mad at the right entity if we're going to get them to change. Otherwise they'll keep bullying people and they've found that they can bully people so much it gives them Stockholm Syndrome, where they feel they can't leave.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware...
For quite a while I've found that the much easier answer is to have a physical drive per OS and make sure it's the only drive connected during install, or at least one for anything that doesn't play entirely nicely with multi-boot. Obviously there's downsides to that, buying another drive or you might be using something like a laptop which is less friendly to extra drives, dis/reconnecting M.2 drives isn't as trivial as SATA either.
Bazzite supports secure boot just fine, its actually enabled by default. I'm sure others do too.
Secure boot mainly gets annoying if you have an Nvidia card, since the akmod needs to be self-signed. It's not insurmountable but you have to load your keys into the UEFI before it'll work.
Bazzite builds the Nvidia driver into its kernel, so you don't need to do anything special. Post installation it prompts you to do key enrollment, so all the user needs to do is select "Enroll MOK" and type "universalblue".
I’ll be honest I’m really struggling with this analogy.
Running two systems has cons of its own
Which are?
I've had Windows in one disk and Linux in another for maybe a decade and use the boot selection to pick what I want. Never had a single issue.
Although I haven't opened Windows in months, so I'll likely nuke it soon and give more space for my Linux.
I’m sorry but are you being intentionally obtuse? You can’t think of a single downside to running two systems on your machine instead of one? If you lack imagination to that level I can’t help you dude
Of course running one system is better. Use Linux and stop being miserable ;)
Still, you haven't said what are these extremely horrible cons that two systems have. For me they're so small it's not even comparable to having to submit yourself to a shit Windows system only to avoid the "hassle" of having two systems.
I used Windows only for gaming and Linux for everything else. Now I'm fed up with games that choose to block Linux out, so I no longer need the two systems and couldn't be happier.
I’m not miserable in the slightest, just endlessly bewildered that people in the Linux community continue to have attitudes like yours, despite that being literally the main reason people are put off of Linux. It’s self defeating.
Over the last year or so, nVidia support for the 3+ series of hardware has gotten pretty stable.
With that said, I'm probably going to grab and AMD or Intel card once my 3060 becomes too much of a pain to continue using. It's a little ridiculous that the 5060 gives very little reason for my to update my 5 year old video card.
I only update my rig ever 8-10 years. Saves money though I tend to then play the older games, which is OK for me. I've had a 3080 for 3 years and it still feels like a new card.
FWIW, I've been gaming with a 1660 on Nobara OS for the past 3 months w/o issue.
FWIW my 4070 Ti Super has had zero headaches in Linux. It’s only older Nvidia cards I’ve had issues with. Seems like there was a major driver change starting with the RTX 20xx series.
Up until last week I was running a 960 on mint and had absolutely no problems, nor did I even have to think about drivers. I also have a server running Tesla M10s and they're great too, little more fiddly getting the right driver, but that's moreso on the cards being weird.
Post last week I put in an Arc B580 and I had some issues at the start, but that's more to do with the fact that my workstation has a Haswell Xeon v3... Otherwise it was just turning CSM off.
Linux probably became first-class for them because a lot of ML workflows rely on NVidia in the cloud, and I don't think anyone really uses Windows for that.
It's telling how Nvidia released an ARM driver for Linux, but has not for Windows.
I find this mostly applies to the competitive games due to most standard anti cheat apps not working outside win32.
Again, all these games are available on console (mostly) so the excuse to not support Linux is conscious. Those ARE Linux machines. Essentially. (Yeah yeah, they have their own tool chain and rendering) but if they are using Vulkan, DX12, DX11, and a window - it can run on Linux.
Of course, and it's mostly DRM and/or anti-cheat. The studios want full control over the device running their IP, and they can't achieve that with desktop Linux, but they also don't want to leave the PC gaming market behind entirely to launch exclusively on consoles. Hence why the Windows versions of these games install rootkits on your PC, they aren't cooperating with the PC ecosystem, they are forcibly turning your computer into a locked-down console.
and for a good reason, you want an infested cheater to be more a problem than currently bad problem that is happening????
giving a user freedom cause it to make multiplayer game to be more unbearable since its human nature to compete and come out of others ???? who would guess
I hope they won't start providing their own tailored heavily locked encrypted operating system versions as a requirement to run their games.
They did, it's called Xbox and PlayStation
Does xbox and playstation run on my custom PC?
Technically PS5 and I think Switch 2 is based on the BSD kernel probably because of the license. Xbox is not exactly Windows but it's using an NT kernel.
Playstation is FreeBSD, yeah, but the Switch runs a completely bespoke microkernel. Nintendo did borrow the BSD networking stack, which led some to infer from the license disclosure that it runs a BSD, but it's been extensively reverse engineered now and it doesn't even vaguely resemble Unix.
Interesting, I didn't know that! Thanks.
The fun thing about it being a true microkernel is that although there's zero official public information about it, it was small enough to fully reverse engineer and more or less reconstitute the original source code. You can see it here, it's tiny: https://github.com/Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere/tree/master/meso...
I’ve been trying to train a model to do this kind of work. Take a black box and try to reverse engineer its functions back into something usable (not necessarily identical). Obviously on things that are out of copyright or copyleft.
I've gamed since 1979 and have used nVidia on Linux since the early 2000's...without issue.
There have certainly been issues (I've been on Linux with mostly nvidia GPUs since 2004) but it's almost always been caused by the module being outside the kernel, and a kernel update breaking compatibility sometimes, understandably. This has always been fixed quickly on nvidias end though. And early Wayland issues and the current DX12 -> Vulkan translation performance issues in more recent times.
But overall I've also had a mostly stable experience during that time. New hardware is supported mostly at release. Not always supporting all the latest features straight away mind you, but still. Meanwhile I seem to hear about issues with support for Intel and AMD cards at release frequently in comparison.
> My next PC upgrade will probably be getting rid of my Nvidia 1660 super and getting something AMD for less headaches.
Then you'll have AMD headaches. NVidia is the only accelerated graphics card fully supported on Linux.
You only get acceleration in AMD if you use their binary-only drivers and they only support cards for about a year.
AMD drivers are now open and in the mainline kernel. They dropped their proprietary driver and now use the upstream MESA stack. Nvidia also still suffers from a 20-30% performance drop on DX12 games on Linux, while AMD does not.
It used to be the reverse as you stated, but that hasn't been true since about 2015.
Okay, but AMD isn't accelerated. It's godawful slow for anything to do with video, and really you just need an NVidia card if you're doing anything to do with video editing or motion graphics.
The built-in amdgpu drivers are awful, constantly crashy and with very poor hardware support of anything more than a couple of years old.
> AMD isn't accelerated
This is a bewildering assertion.
It doesn't have CUDA beacuse that's NVidia-only and it doesn't have OpenCL unless you use the binary-only drivers, which only work on a handful of very new cards.
What good is it?
You can't use it for editing video.
> CUDA .. nvidia-only
Well, duh.
> unless you use the binary-only drivers
Which you also have to do with nvidia cards.
> which only work on a handful of very new cards
So get a new card?
> You can't use it for editing video.
Yes I can.
----
I actually switched from a 7900 XTX to a 4090 BITD because I wanted CUDA, so I get that angle, but that doesn't mean I go around telling people "AMD isn't accelerated," because it's not true and it's a silly thing to try to claim.
NVIDIA is currently improving as well! Of course AMD is still the safer bet, but I think things look bright for NVIDIA in the future. The kernel driver was open sourced, and they are currently working on the DX12 performance issues.
I run both operating systems. But I have to say it either runs the game you want to play or it doesn't. This is especially true if you play games with friends.
> But I have to say it either runs the game you want to play or it doesn't
Can you elaborate on this?
For example, it was convoluted getting StarCraft 2 to run. Then it did eventually work, though it felt ever so slightly laggy.
Anno 1800 ran though it occasionally slowed way down, occasionally crashed, and multiplayer never worked.
Hogwart's Legacy ran but crashed, and ran massively slower / lower quality settings than on the same hardware but in Windows.
All of those were not binary "runs / doesn't".
That's not what I am saying, sorry if it was confusing. The parent was implying that if it doesn't run a game just pick a different game. But I was pointing out that isn't always an option, and some times you just want to play a specific game.
Gotcha - yeah I'm on the same page.
I used Linux Mint for 2 full months, 99% of my personal computing. Really like it. BUT... not all games my gaming group plays work on it, and social gaming is very important to me.
That doesn't mean I'm sour on Linux PC gaming. I think it's great, and will work for a lot of people, and it's so close for me. And I might switch, since my gaming tastes are shifting.
I do understand the premise but … people want to play the games they want to play.
For example I am a good customer for streaming services because I don’t care about specific titles - I will watch a series or a movie because it is available. I will most likely not go through a hassle to watch some specific show if it is not on streaming I already have.
Gaming doesn’t really work like that for me. I usually want to play specific titles - not just some game.
But I fully understand someone has the same approach to games as I have for movies/series.
I'd quote your own example from Anno -> "multiplayer never worked". Thats the "doesn't run" part. I always play Anno 1800 with friends. It has been my experience with linux gaming for a while - anything that involves multiplayer usually doesn't work, either because its just broken (less likely) or because its specifically stopped by the developer (anticheat, etc..). Reality is though, that most mainstream games (as in, biggest player counts and as such, the games most people are playing) do not support linux. If my Valorant or League of Legends or Counter Strike or Rust or ARC Raiders or Marvel Rivals don't allow me to play on linux then the state still is "linux can't really run games yet".
How do you fix this? I dont know - most of these are the developers refusing support because of anticheat or just support overload, but it's insane to suggest that linux works for gaming when the most played games in the world straight up do not work. I'd love if linux was more viable though, can't wait to ditch the slowness from windows.
It's like this. You eventually got Starcraft2 to work. That means Linux can run Starcraft2, it's in the "Runs" category. Games like League of Legends, which have kernel level anti cheat, are in the "Won't Run" category.
But you don't want to sacrifice comfort or other things. The game should work just right on Linux.
I have an Nvidia card and use mostly Ubuntu (mate), also for gaming. It's even a problem now, because I would benefit from a hard divide between the gaming and working\studying system (I have a gaming user in backlog). On Linux it's mostly KSP, Factorio, but sometimes DeepRockGalactic, Valheim, Euro Truck Sim or Warhammer: Total War1\2\3. These games work flawlessly or with <10%fps hit.
There are games that kind of work - Ancestors: Humankind Odyssey, Cyberpunk, Hunt: Showdown. But you lose comfort and I'd rather just play them on Windows, than suffer decreased functionality on Linux. I know that some of it (definitely Cyberpunk) is only because of NVIDIA.
When buying games I usually don't buy Windows only games unless there is a very good reason. And I quit League of Legends and WRC rally because of anti cheat scam. I feel scammed after putting lot of money in a game and suddenly losing the ability to play it.
This shifting of goalposts just to cater to linux just explains it all.
Comeon. If a customer bought a game that says it runs on linux, they should be able to play it on linux well, not just launch it and quit within 5 mins.
I get you have the ideology up in your head, but don't lie and embellish linux to this degree. The attitude just turns people off.
> If a customer bought a game that says it runs on linux, they should be able to play it on linux well
None of those games say they run on Linux.
The fact that you can play most games on Linux these days is due to the Wine developers, Valve, and CodeWeavers. But those efforts are completely unrelated to the developers of those three games. Buying Starcraft 2 is not, in any way, purchasing a Linux game or transferring money to anyone working on Linux support.Every game I've purchased that actually says it runs on Linux, has worked beautifully on Linux (stellaris and factorio come to mind). Most windows games work beautifully on Linux too, but Blizzard isn't lifting any fingers to make it that way.
Yeah I hope I'm clear in that I'm not "against Linux" or "against people choosing to use Linux." I think Linux is awesome.
And I choose to use Windows for most of my personal computing, due to my gaming preferences, some needs (concussions + poor eyesight means things like scaling and brightness controls and refresh rate matter a lot to me), and my preference for DxO PhotoLab (which isn't Linux compatible.)
"Linux" is really a family of operating systems, so people need to be more specific. It might run perfectly out of the box on consumer/gamer focused operating systems like Bazzite or SteamOS while perhaps requiring more work on something like Red Hat or NixOS. Those different operating systems all have wildly different approaches to how the OS actually works despite generally being able to run a largely overlapping set of programs.
It's like saying something works on "laptop" without specifying whether it's a Thinkpad or a Chromebook or a Macbook.
I can't comment generally but I use NixOS and have had no issues playing games on Steam. The setup was laughably simple, just `programs.steam.enable = true;` and Steam handles compatibility so well that I buy games without thinking "will this run".
Actually there was one thing I couldn't do but this isn't unique to NixOS. I tried to install a GTAV mod that allows you to ride your smart bike trainer in game: GTBikeV. The mod can be installed, but the Bluetooth doesn't work. This is a WINE limitation.
Fwiw I've been playing Hogwarts Legacy lately, though single player. Only problem I ever face is sometimes in a cave if I'm facing a certain direction I'll get blinding light as if I have ray tracing enabled and it's badly implemented. Though considering it's a AAA game and other things I've seen, I don't think that's exactly a Linux problem. Much like Starfield...
I ran Starcraft 2 through Lutrus and it was a piece of cake. No lag that I could discern. There was a little mini launcher and everything. The multiplayer also worked just fine, although the matchmaking system seemed to think I was an expert level player for some reason and kept matching me with dudes who were way better at the game than I was.
To me, this is the one thorn in Linux (and the Linux online community) that gives me pause.
For the people that it just works for, well it just works for.
For anyone else, apparently they are the problem? Not Linux?
Well sorry no. I did get StarCraft 2 working with Lutris... once. Then I couldn't get it to start again. Eventually I switched to running Battle.Net from Steam and for some reason that did work. But it wasn't a "just works" or "piece of cake." It was a puzzle.
Maybe the difference is that I am running Ubuntu? Personally I think it's a common mistake for new users to jump on some obscure distro because they read something online where someone says it's the best. Even if that's true there is value in being on a popular distro in that bugs tend to be discovered and fixed quicker and there's almost always someone who has had the same problem you did and often figured out the solution just a web search away.
I think Canonical and the Gnome foundation have made some really bone headed decisions over the years, but I stick with Ubuntu because the mass of users on it means I never get left high and dry. Or at least I'm not alone when I run into a problem.
Yeah, I was using Linux Mint at the time. Which is based on Ubuntu... So that's often where I'd look for help.
Though any kind of documentation is like Linux, scattered and inconsistent. And I'm "OK" with that, as in I think the way that Linux came to be and is maintained, and provides user choice is also the reason why it's not "user-friendly" in every scenario. You can choose your distribution, and a lot of other things. And then look in a wide variety of places for bug reports, user questions, etc. You'll get a variety of answers from "it just works for me" to "change your distribution that you chose" to "even though some guides say to use Lutris, it's easier to just put it in Steam's external program launcher and choose Proton version x.yz."
Even then, not everything will work because it wasn't written to work (for Linux). It was written to work for Windows, and then some smart people rolled up their sleeves and found ways to make a great many things work for Linux, and it's all amazing. And I find using Linux (mostly) quite pleasant. But when things don't work... there's going to be friction. It will take user effort to find a solution, or a solution might not be found.
And for me personally, being someone who really likes to poke and customize and do things my way, Linux is a blessing and a curse, because I can guarantee I'll hit "weird edge cases" like trying to use the online multiplayer part of a game instead of just single player, or try to use my laptop's brightness controls, but they don't work, or I'll want fractional scaling to work, but it won't. And maybe there's a fix out there, or maybe not. Fixes like "it works for me" or "change your distribution", though, are non-fixes. They just frustrate people. If changing my distribution fixes an issue, how many new issues does it create for me?
Not saying you didn’t experience this, but I’ve definitely run StarCraft 2 in the past, and I play Anno 1800 regularly fine (thanks to the mods I’ve been playing it’s even got 50% more sessions than the base game)
Did multiplayer LAN work in Anno 1800 for you out of the box, or did you make adjustments? I couldn't figure out how to get it to work.
StarCraft 2 worked, oddly enough, run from Steam as an external program. (Lots of search results tried to get me to use Lutris/bottles, but I couldn't get it to work consistently under Lutris.)
In Lutris it'll try to run on Wine 8 by default, I had to set it to use the latest Proton GE.
Was also able to get WoW, Diablo 4, WC3 and SC1 running well this way, since they're all in a single Wine Battle.net install.
I’ve done multiplayer internet play rather than LAN play, but that worked just fine without any changes from my part.
Ah yes that's what I meant. But yes unfortunately I could not figure out how to get multiplayer to connect. No idea why or how to troubleshoot and fix.
They don't mean all games thru all times, they mean "the latest $70 release" that still can have problem if it is multiplayer DRM/anticheat ridden one.
I haven't booted windows in months but there is definitely some caveats for gamers
On the other hand, those who find contemporary game development trends distasteful might find much to like about the fruits of the Debian Games Team's work on game-data-packager.
https://game-data-packager.debian.net/available.html
The games on that list have native ports that can be integrated into the Debian environment just by installing packages, and the game data packages can be automatically generated from each game's official install media.
It doesn't have to be "the latest $70 release", there are plenty of games that are many years old now that still don't work because of KAC.
This. I’d move to Linux in a heartbeat if certain anticheats for certain competetive games had supports for it. (i.e. faceit anticheat)
Play premier instead! I suck and have hugh trust so I never see any cheaters.
how do you actually accept having a rootkit installed on your system?
Presumably, yes, if they're playing it on a different OS.
I just dont understand how anyone can go "yeah okay lets install these guys rootkit complete with keylogger and who knows what, totally legit!", and for what? to play a game
its easier for me to just have 2 different system for work and entertainment honestly
Even easier is to just give up on competitive games, at a certain point it becomes another job and you know... not fun?
I think Starcraft 2 broke me from this habit, once you're studying various metas rather than having fun you need to take a step back and reevaluate.
Studying metas can in fact be fun for people. It's mentally stimulating.
destroying kids in multiplayer games is fun, wdym by that
Do the top sellers from the past year work on Linux?
I've been meaning to set up Bazzite on an older desktop.
Basically all games work, except some multiplayer games with kernel anticheat. You can look up the status of games here:
https://www.protondb.com/
And specifically the state of multiplayer games with anticheat here (which is a much less favorable % of working games):
https://areweanticheatyet.com/
I personally wouldn't install any kernel anticheat on a computer that I intend to use for anything important, so I would personally refuse to install the incompatible games even if I was using windows.
Take ProtonDB with a grain of salt, Apex Legends still has a Silver rating ("Runs with minor issues") despite being 100% unplayable on Linux for over a year now.
"Just trust us, bro! Our security is better than the banks, governments, and major services and we would never let anyone exploit or abuse the gaping hole we're deliberately installing in your security profile! It's just our perfectly secure rootkit that won't ever be used for anything bad!"
It's so weird to me that people just allow this, or even defend it. Game companies should be legally obligated to scale human moderation and curation of multiplayer games, and if you're paying for service that gets moderated and curated, there should be some legal expectation of process - a requirement that the service provider lay out a specific "due process" framework, even if it ends up mediated, that gives a customer legal recourse. Instead, they try to automate everything, which has notoriously indiscriminate collateral damage with no recourse.
If you pour significant chunk of your private time and money into a game, you should be entitled to not arbitrarily lose an account or gameplay progress because some poorly configured naive Bayes classifier decided you did something wrong, without corresponding evidence or recourse to undo bad bans.
For some reason companies are entitled to infinitely expand their reach without concurrently expanding their responsibilities in providing service to individuals. Must be nice.
From Steam’s 2025 top X charts (https://store.steampowered.com/charts/bestofyear/2025?tab=3)
11/12 top selling new releases (the exception is battlefield 6, because the anticheat blocks Linux)
9/12 top selling (COD, BF6 and Apex block Linux)
11/12 most played (Apex blocks Linux)
So if you’re into competitive ranked games (especially fps), you might face problems due to anti cheat blocks, but practically everything else works
Most of the games I play would work fine, but it’s the damn anti cheat and multiplayer games that forces Windows down my throat, and I’m not happy about it. I only use my gaming rig for gaming so I have no other requirements, which kind of makes it even worse.
I play multiplayer games with anti cheat all the time. The only ones that don't run are straight up malware.
I’m not disagreeing, it’s just how certain very popular games operate nowadays. I would never play them on a computer I used for anything but gaming.
Well I used to game a lot when I was younger.
Initially I hated that Linux was so niche in 2005 or so.
Meanwhile now, I don't have time for games anyway. I still think gaming should be better on Linux, but I don't miss Windows anymore either (though I have it as secondary operating system on another computer; I just don't really care about it, it could die tomorrow and I would not miss it one iota).
Games are more and more consolidating towards services, so it really only takes one game for the lions share of gamers. You can bet GTA V is a big draw away from Linux and that GTA VI will eventually be the same when it hits PC.
As for me, I'm still stuck for professional reasons. I do intend to develop natively on Linux when time comes to make my own game.
The only pain point I've found is VR. I've bounced off trying to get it working multiple times with the best results getting about 10% functional (video working on one or two games, input broken on all).
That said, I haven't tried getting the same kit working on windows so I can't say if it's any better.
VR is rough at the moment, but one would hope that Valve is prepping an overhaul for SteamVR on Linux since they're launching a standalone VR headset which runs Linux soon.
I suspect that this might not ship given the recent dramatic change in memory prices.
I ran into the issue where I didn't know that you can tell Steam to always prefer NATIVE LINUX programs over everything over Proton. This was causing a ton of issues with VR, I havent gone back to try it yet though, havent found the time.
It was very broken for a long time. Since fairly recently you have WiVRn (specifically wivrn-dashboard on Arch) for Oculus (more supported though) and I would daresay it works better then SteamVR used to do for me on Windows
Hardware for flight sim games is also in a similar boat. It's hard to configure most of the newer hardware, but a lot of the old low quality joysticks work alright out of the box.
I have both a Reverb G2 and a Pimax both working great via Monado.
That's great to hear as a fellow Reverb G2 user. Starting with Windows 11 24h2 they dropped all Windows MR support. It looks like there's also a driver called "Oasis" now which restores functionality on Windows.
I have owned the index for a few years, running it on ubuntu/mint. It is a pain. But VR is a pain generally. I go months without using the thing. Then when i do use it some bit of software has been updated and i inevitably have to spend an hour getting it to work correctly again. Honestly, VR on linux feels like using windows again.
VR is bad because nobody cares much about it. The hardware is clunky, the market tiny, and costs great. As the hardware improves it will get more attention from the FOSS community and so too will the overall experiance.
or DRM for old games that check stuff like the cd being present
Does a game "run on Linux" when it has 100% feature parity? 90%? 80%? What are you willing to cut? Some performance? A few graphical effects? Multiplayer?
When you look at the details, Linux gaming is not as good as it might seem.
But I'm still gaming on Linux!
What you sacrifice in feature parity, you gain in user freedom and principle. To me, that is a worthwhile tradeoff. Especially since it's really not that much different at this point. You're not sacrificing much in most cases now. It's really quite remarkable.
Freedom to not play the games your friends are playing, without you.
I can't remember the last time a game did anything other than run (this is with only trying games that have been documented to work). I think the worst I've had is audio not working in cut scenes in some game, but I don't remember what game it was.
Age of Empires II is very popular but doesn't have multiplayer support on Linux.
> More games run on GNU / Linux than any gaming console.
Not for long. The Steam Machine aka "GabeCube" is also a gaming console, and will run all these games.
All*
You and most of the other people in this thread clearly do not understand what's going on here. I and everyone else you're griping about do not give a shit about Slop Spoogers 7 from 1998 running great on Linux, we care about the games that we play with our friends being playable.
https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=playerCount
This is what matters, on Windows every single one of these is Native. Switching to Linux will be painful at best until every single one is at least Gold if not Platinum or Native.
There it is, the classic “just change what you enjoy then!!”. Linux will take off when the community stops trying to force new users to conform to the Linux way of life and instead respect that other people have other needs and wants that are valid, and not a moment before.
While I agree it's unreasonable, it's also kind of a chicken and an egg thing. These things won't change until Linux becomes big enough to ignore. I'm not sure what the solution is though, as I don't think it's realistic to make people give up what they enjoy to get there. That's not gonna happen. But Valve has at least made a dent with the Steamdeck and Proton in general, and maybe more with the upcoming Steam Machine. Devs actively target the Steamdeck nowadays for games where it makes sense, so it is taken into consideration at a whole new level compared to years past.
Getting the community to respect that people have those needs would go a long way to stopping people from feeling alienated, even if the solutions aren’t there yet.
Not much else to do. You either convert people, convert the companies to support Linux, or convert the government into cracking down on whatever makes it difficult for Linux to be supported. The latter is highly unlikely, and the 2nd only cares if people shift their habits.
So there's only one channel left.
I mean, the community could be less hostile to newcomers, and some of the bigger distorts could focus more on the user experience of inexperienced users. Those things can be done without any of those.
How so? My impression is that Ubuntu is the biggest distro and it's philosophy is pretty much trying to replicate the Mac experience. I don't think the base UX can get easier to use at that rate.
Things that don't work out of the box tend to be proprietary stuff, like GPU drivers. That falls back to converting companies.
Ubuntu has done a decent job for normal installs but take it from me, if you want to dual boot it, it still doesn’t make it easy. It’s too easy to mess up your whole system if you don’t know what you’re doing, not to mention bootloaders are all still stuck in the 90’s, and are even worse to configure nicely than they are to use.
Dual booting is one of the best ways to introduce someone to Linux in theory as they’ll feel safe trying that without having to delete their whole old system… except it’s also the scariest and most difficult way to install it and no installer makes it easy. It’s a real foot gun.
Many of us play with friends and don't dictate every game in the rotation. My time with my friends is more important to me than operating system purity.
Well said. People like to conveniently ignore the realities and real reasons people do things when trying to push an ideology.
I've been using Fedora+KDE for over a decade, Windows 8 was last version of Windows I had installed at home, and we all know what a squarified mess that was.
Gnome is fine, but it's just not for me.
For everyone on here that complains about Windows requiring an 'online' account, MacOS does as well, but the perception is different. MacOS, just kind of quietly does it, with no ceremony, but Windows does a Ballmer-esque right-in-your-face demand. I couldn't possibly comment on Windows 11 as I've yet to use it, but Win10 felt a lot worse than Windows 7 which was probably the last high water mark for Windows after Windows 2000.
Plasma 6 is really polished and simple. I think anyone familiar with windows would be able to grab and run with it immediately.
No hate for anyone that likes other desktop environments, I as a long time windows user just really appreciate how familiar KDE feels.
The familiarity is great but the thing that really draws me to Plasma over Gnome is that the KDE developers seem to have an attitude of just implementing the features people want even if it's not perfect yet. Gnome is polished, but it's missing so many basic configuration options out of the box.
It's kind of funny because when I first got into linux it was practically the opposite story. Back in the day of KDE 2 or 3 and Gnome 2, KDE was the slow one to bring in features while Gnome felt like the wild wild west.
Now it seems like Gnome has gone down a practically walled garden path which I don't love. Last I tried it, I wanted to launch an app focused and in full screen on startup. The gnome response for that was basically "You're not allowed to do that".
To be fair, it has a thousand different settings and you have to manually click Apply to see them in action.
It's flexible and popular, but I don't know that I'd call it simple. It still feels 90s in a lot of ways.
Afaik, you can choose to not sign into icloud when creating an account on your mac. It's not a hard requirement like it is on Windows, though they do obviously strongly nudge you to login to icloud.
I didn't know that. Thanks. Setting up my mac once in 5 years means it isn't a screen I've seen very often!
At least on the latest Sequoia, there has been no hard requirement for an online account. They nudge you towards it, but you can decline and continue. As far as I can remember, macOS has never required an online account to set up a Mac.
You might need it for the App Store if anything, but even then... You don't need the app store for installing software. Mac is at its peak currently, though the new glass UI stuff is a little over the top for me. I miss the old simpler UI. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually.
The Mac 100% does not require you to sign in to an Apple Account to use it. You can go about with a local account only just fine and you can easily do it right from the OOBE setup UI — no tricks involved whatsoever.
I only use KDE, though it has weird instability from time to time. They just changed which gcc version I'm on so I am not sure if I've noticed the same instability or not. Overall though KDE is the perfect DE for me.
> Windows requiring an 'online' account, MacOS does as well
This has never been my experience. Is that new in Tahoe?
It isn't. There's no such thing in macOS. Local and iCloud accounts are not necessarily linked, never been.
Yes, as pointed out, I was mistaken, but then in my defence, I've only ever set up one Mac, 5 years ago, so I've only seen 'that screen' once.
> if you don't sell your games on Steam or in a way I can run them on Linux I am not buying or playing them.
Agree 1000% and recently Steam Community Support pissed me off so I am now looking into GOG (I have my first GOG game now and playing it), Epic and Luna. In fact, the GOG game I got was free through Luna ironically. Even more ironic, the excellent Heroic game launcher lets you mark the game to show up in Steam, then when you start steam run it from there and it uses the config settings from Heroic but you can use screenshots, etc. in Steam.
The gaming landscape on Linux is great, except for those companies that refuse to support anti-cheat.
I run Kubuntu btw (and Ubuntu since 2006).
PS I keep Snap disabled.
While you _can_ use their launcher, you don't _have_ to. Once you buy the game, you can just download the installer and run it to install on your box. If you want you can save the install package somewhere if you think you'll enjoy the game for years to come and don't want to be dependent on GOG.
I also found out that they have quite a few fairly recent games. Maybe not the top-10 big budget (however they partner with RedProject so they do have Cyberpunk) but they have plenty of solid indy games from 2015 - 2020, and some more recent.
That's a good point about downloading it. The game I got was Fallout 3. I'd played Fallout 4, 76 and New Vegas and am finding 3 to be fun too. Probably won't get the older isometric (?) Fallout games, I prefer first person.
This was me in 2005. I cant believe people say that M$ started to suck in 2025. It always did.
I suspect this is less about when Windows declined and more about individual computing journeys. Early exposure (home, school, work) tends to set a baseline that’s hard to shake.
Microsoft had realyl good engineers and talent. Microsoft internally has gone to shit. They hire an army of H1B's and all the talent has left. Shell of a company on the Windows side that anyone working with them can see. It started a couple years ago, but it's really gone off the deepend and will just get worse. I say this as a windows expert and someone who thinks linux is crap.
>This was me in 2005.
Ha, same. Windows XP for me had a horrible habit of booting into a blue screen randomly after updating video card drivers (happened with both ATI and Nvidia). Trying to do a repair install wouldn't work. The only option was a full reinstall.
Installation from the disk took an hour. Then (if you were going about this the legal way) you'd have to call the microsoft number to register your install, but be on hold for another 30 minutes. Then it was multiple hours of install your favorite video player, reboot. Install video codecs, reboot. Install firefox, reboot. Apply all of your registry tweaks, reboot. Install all your games from CD-ROM, more rebooting. And multiple hours of that.
I moved to linux back in 2006 or so and never looked back. Documented part of the journey here https://net153.net/ubuntu_vs_debian.html
I started using Linux in like 2007 but the GPU was always an issue. Then it was running games. Linux changed for me around 2013+ when I would install it on my laptops and get a heck of a performance boost. Heck those laptops still turn on to this day. Windows just bloats all hardware.
Been on / off Linux for the desktop since about the same time. Recurring theme across my AMD and NVIDIA gpus. Support has always sucked!
Over the years it felt like a game of whack a mole finding the right combination of driver versions, open or closed source. R9 390 owners back in the day will understand... Fast forward to now, the same problems keep occurring albeit better off then they were.
> I started using Linux in like 2007 but the GPU was always an issue.
Were you running Nvidia hardware? I've been running Linux since like 2000-ish, have always run ATi/AMD hardware on my desktop machines, and (aside from overheat issues brought on by the undersized replacement fan attached with bread ties to that one board) haven't had troubles. On the other hand, I don't suspend my desktop or servers to RAM or disk, so maybe that has intermittently or always been broken... I'd never know.
I've only had Intel hardware in my laptops, and I can't remember ever having trouble suspending those to RAM or disk.
It's been an unfortunate re-occurring issue for me as well. Recent hardware is much better about this, and I too have seen the performance bumps at the cost of software compatibility. I feel like if Adobe brought their CC suite to Linux I'd have no reason to ever use Windows outside the random game that _needs_ it.
Yes, but it took some time before the suck became so bad too many people started to notice, and those people weren’t tech people.
Most people had never even heard of Linux. It has taken a lot of very bad things on Windows for it to get to this point. It’s classic frog in a slowly heating up pot territory.
>Most people had never even heard of Linux.
My experience is that people fear linux, rather than not knowing. I am the lonely Linux user since c. 2005, and people see half my screen is always a console, the other half a browser. So they fear linux is for console wizards, not for regular users. Nothing will convince them otherwise, even when they are 100% of the time using online webapps. I have some coworkers using browser + VS code + WSL2 all the time, but they don't switch because they fear the console-to-config-everything instead of Control Panel.
I don't know, man. In my experience, people make no difference between "windows" and "the pc". I think the vast majority of "regular people" have no idea there are alternatives to "windows", other than "macs".
So much of it is a problem of execution. If people could use Linux without ever having to know what a terminal is (much like the average Windows user doesn't know what PowerShell is), then it would actually be quite successful. It has gotten better over the past decade, but it still suffers from endless paper cuts and the odd issue that requires a shell session to fix. I will say that Valve's SteamOS has come the closest to avoiding this trap. You can use a deck without ever having to touch a CLI.
This was me in 2006 as well. Long live Edgy Eft!
My first distro I booted from was Ubuntu 4.04.
> Steam and Proton work perfectly
I am a hardcore DayZ player. DayZ does not work on Proton[0]. I cannot use Linux as my main gaming platform. Battlefield 6 does not work. Latest Call of Duty does not work. You can talk about voting with your wallet, but when millions of people are buying the game, your one non-vote means nothing.
So either you punish yourself and refuse to play with friends, or you punish yourself and install windows. It’s a damned situation regardless of your choice
[0] point me to as many compatibility databases as you want, the game will not start on my vanilla Ubuntu build
This is really just a subset of competitive shooters. Arc Raiders, The Finals, Hunt Showdown, Halo Infinite all play fine.
I have a Windows drive for Battlefield but I stopped booting into it after interest in the game waned.
Playing on console is also an option. Most games allow you to alternate between keyboard/mouse and controller. Discord works fine, and every game is cross-play.
Oh ok. I’ll just stop playing my favorite games
If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, but don't assume everyone values DayZ over control of their system.
No but I am highlighting why it work for millions of other people as well.
Sounds like it might be an issue with your setup, considering that other people have no problems running it. Hard to tell what the problem is, but definitely a frustrating situation.
this is why a lot of people run arch and why valve based steamOS on arch instead of debian as the previous version was, you need a newer kernel and other packages to really play games on linux with the least friction possible
thats not a kernel issue its an anti cheat issue. No kernel except the windows kernel is going to allow him to play battlefield and cod.
Isn't call of duty the game where Nikki Minaj shoots the cat from the Simpsons? I think I'll pass.
That’s Fortnite and while you can pass, I don’t want to pass.. I want to play it!
I switched my gaming laptop over to CachyOS (which is more or less "Arch with some good defaults for gaming and a curated runtime environment") because I literally couldn't play Stellaris on my $1800, year-old gaming laptop without regular hard crashes that locked up the entire system and required a hold-the-power-button-down hard reboot. This is apparently a rare but known issue on the Paradox forums, affecting many of their games, and it seems to be due to some problem with the 24h2 windows update on some machines, but there's no clear resolution. Eventually I got mad enough to just pave my entire gaming laptop and switch wholly over to Cachyos.
Since switching, I have not experienced a single problem with Stellaris, even running larger galaxies in longer games with more mods. I haven't had any compatibility issues or bugs or anything with my other games either. It was so painless that I switched my desktop over as well, and I no longer have a windows device. I've been really pleasantly surprised by how many games support Linux now.
Yeah, yay works until it doesn't anymore, because the pacman library dependency it uses was updated but yay was not... and then you need to recompile yay manually. I mean, I'll still use it (or rather paru, which works basically the same way), but it's very annoying, when it happens every few months.
You can download a precompiled yay/paru from their Github pages btw.
I don't understand, yay updates itself. I've never once had this problem.
That's assuming you do system upgrades through paru/yay. However, you may not want to upgrade the packages you've obtained from the AUR and so you upgrade using pacman. That may cause the updated libalpm to become incompatible with the installed yay/paru.
yay used to be in the official Arch Linux repository for some time, wonder why it was removed.
Iirc it was to force the extra step necessary for the user to acknowledge that the AUR can bootstrap malware if used blindly.
This seems to be a relatively consistent discussion surrounding AUR helper development; for example, adding UX to incentivise users to read PKGBUILDs, lest the AUR becomes an attractive vector for skids.
No one wants the AUR to become NPM, and the thing that will incentivise that is uneducated users. Having the small barrier of not having helpers in the main repos is an effective way of accomplishing that.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_helpers
AUR helpers like yay are not supported officially. The other commenter sheds some light as to why.
Assume they mean having to recompile the AUR package they were trying to install using yay.
If users mental model is mostly "yay is like pacman but can also install packages from AUR the same way" wihout thinking deeper about the difference then I think it using it is very risky and that you should just stick to pacman + git/makepkg. Only consider helpers once that's become second nature and routine. Telling people to "just yay install" is doing them a disservice. An upgrade breaking the system isn't even that bad compared to getting infected with malware due to an old package you were using being orphaned and hijacked to spread malware or getting a bad copycat version due to a typo.
I think EndeavourOS is doing users a disservice if they provide sth like yay preinstalled and ready to use out of the box. It isn't installing packages from a shared repo: It's downloading code from arbitrary locations and running it on your machine in order to produce a package. Being able to read and understand shell script (PKGBUILD) is kind of a prerequisite to using it safely.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
They largely have now, archinstall.
It's still text based/TUI but it's pretty simple and intuitive, anyone already familiar with installing a Linux distro (especially any sort of -server variant) will be comfortable with the archinstall script.
Came here to say this. Archinstall rocks.
Regarding why Arch doesn't "invest" in a graphical installer, it's worth mentioning that Arch's installation image has a different design philosophy than most installation media.
The image is a fully functional arch environment that copies the entirety of its contents to RAM on boot, giving you special installation opportunities such as the ability to install Arch to the same flash drive that booted the installer. Having no graphical dependencies lets this image remain small enough to pull this off, as well as allowing for fully remote installations over SSH out of the box, since archinstall is a TUI.
I don't believe there are any serious technical obstacles to providing a graphical installer in something like an initramfs environment. Many distros do provide graphical installation mechanisms using PXE, which loads the kernel and installer-initramfs over the network (and is similar in the sense that it won't touch local storage unless you tell it to)
I don't have a way to quickly around to check, but I thought the arch install media used squashfs? In which case I wouldn't have thought it was safe to blow away the backing store.
> anyone already familiar with installing a Linux distro (especially any sort of -server variant) will be comfortable with the archinstall script.
To be fair, thats not _generally_ the audience we tend to think about when we talk about the enshittification of Windows. We're usually talking regular consumers / computer users and "gamers" the latter of which is a wide range of people that can fend for themselves with instructions to people that cannot.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't generally direct that audience to vanilla arch linux as "gamers first distro" anyway.
I'd direct them to something like Bazzite (Immutable), or CachyOS for staying arch-based but providing a GUI installer and tools, Endeavor OS, even Fedora, etc.
Agreed. I know in some circles it's a meme, but if the Steam Gaming Console actually makes a debut any time soon, I think we'll see more of a jump from the "Gamer" crowd away from Windows. My (some say naive) hope is that it will make game devs try to design games that aren't only locked in on Windows and have more Proton support.
It's really a (good IMHO) sign of the times that us old hats have to remind ourselves that most new comers to Linux today aren't necessarily adept at installing another OS, let alone using the command line. The first time I installed Arch was maybe four years ago, but the very first dual boot setup I made was between Win 3.1 and OS/2 2.1 in 1993 when I was 10, and I've been playing with Linux since the mid-late 90s. When I first installed Arch the "hard way" I said to myself--"I don't understand why it has this reputation... this is all stuff I've done before countless times." Frankly, I'm still trying to figure out the distribution graph of Linux knowledge and how to engage with different skill levels.
I agree. I also think that not everyone (I couldn't say if this is generational, I see this among peers sometimes too) has the same appetite for problem solving. People hit a problem or a wall and say "So I tried X and now I see Y. I dont know what to do" and then they just sit there. The reason that LMGTFY and RTFM come off as "elitist" is because people are frustrated by others' willingness to just "stop trying" whenever they hit a road block.
>idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Because in reality, you should be able to use the wiki for installing. Because if you can't, you might not be able to use the wiki to support yourself in the future.
The issue most people have with slapping some paint on arch then riding the coat tails is the eternal September effect. Arch community prefers folks who try to help themselves _first_ and reading an install wiki is a good indicator you're going to do that.
Not that this is going to matter to you because you've left Windows behind, but I refuse to buy License Keys any more and I try to steer people away from buying "Gray Keys" to avoid the ridiculous costs. Using the MS Activation Scripts[0] is the much better go-to.
[0] - https://massgrave.dev/
Given the push to monetize user data it seems Microsoft is demphasizing their focus on key piracy. I bought a computer with a 55" touch screen. The company selling it said it was a Windows 11 computer. The computer was a 14 year old Intel CPU/Mobo that was never designed to run Windows 11. The company selling it had hacked Windows to run on this old computer. They didn't have a license key. I report it to Microsoft and crickets. The company ghosted me on the issue. In 2003, with XP in it's prime, they were cracking down hard on piracy... now it's part of the business model...
Absolutely. I would also think that the amount of money "lost" on license keys specifically on the "regular consumer" side pales in comparison to the data that they get once you're on their operating system. How many non-power users bother with disabling telemetry and other data that MS collects through their operating system? How many people bother configuring a Local Account? All of that is probably worth way more than a ~$200 license key.
On the business side, businesses make it a focus to be in compliance with licensing agreements so they still see whatever oodles of money from companies that have fleets of computers that run Windows.
There's still a lot of utility to doing things the hard way. I do suggest people that want to actually learn Linux install Arch and live in the terminal. You learn a lot very fast because you're forced to. But it's not for everyone and that's totally okay too. That's the beauty of Linux after all. That's the beauty of computing. You can't build a product for everyone but you can build an environment that can become what anyone needs.
But I'll second your point. I've been on Endeavour on my main machine for about 3-4 years now and only had one problem where I just got a mismatch in a new kernel and new Nvidia driver so I couldn't load the desktop. Easy rollback (from the cache) and a day or two later the issue was solved so I could upgrade without a problem. Took no more than 10 minutes to solve and that's the worst problem I've had the entire time. I will also give the advice that if you have an Nvidia card give your boot partition like 5GB instead of 1GB
I don't think it is because they can't do it or that they want to be a base for other distros. They simply let the user choose what the user wants. And if you don't know what you want then you learn it.
I switched to arch 15 years ago to learn Linux. And it is by far the best way to understand it.
Having used Arch I can easily maintain almost any distro out there, but it doesn't work the other way around.
I'd also like to tell any Linux newbies, the Arch Wiki is your best friend. It doesn't matter if you're using Ubuntu, Mint, or whatever. The Arch Wiki is still usually the second place I go to for when I need help. The first is the man pages (while there's some bad documentation out there it is quite surprising how well most man pages are written. Linux really has shown me the power and importance of writing good documentation)
I installed fedora yesterday. Instead of steam i am hoping that GOG with heroic games launcher will work nicely. Idk, I want to support drm free software so if it's on gog, I buy it there.
[obviously YMMV, take me with a grain of salt etc]
I actually tried Fedora first (thinking dev-first workflows) but ended up switching to Ubuntu w/x11 for gaming. A lot of that had to do with Fedora's release schedule (rather than Ubuntu's 2-year LTS) breaking working GOG/steam/wine-based apps on a rotating basis. Since switching to a defaults lifestyle / Ubuntu with x11 I deal with NVIDIA driver compatibility issues every 6 months or so instead of once/month. The 22 -> 24 upgrade was better than I expected and I didn't lose more than a couple of hours of life to appease the shell gods.
In any case Fedora and a once/month problem would still beat the Windows update nonsense, which I am still supporting since my spouse hasn't switched yet :/
I've used Ubuntu since 2006 and started using Kubuntu (I prefer KDE) about 2 years ago. Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) are very solid for gaming. It puzzles me how often I see highly customized distros like Bazzite and CachyOS touted for gaming after looking into some of the wild tweaks those distros do; it's amazing to me that they run at all.
PS I keep Snap disabled.
What wild customisations are you talking about?
As someone who used Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse, Arch) exclusively from 2010 and recently moved to bazzite, I only see positives from the switch.
Most of my usecases work OOTB, and for everything else I use a container workflow. I like that there are fewer ways to mess up upgrades. I like that flatpaks are well integrated.
Fedora Silverblue user here. Lutris (from flatpak) can play GoG games fine (*).
(*): Apparently achievement support even on single player games requires the gamestore client (GoG client in my case) and Lutris doesn't support that yet. Am old enough to not care :p
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
It could be a deliberate measure to set the bar high and filter out people who don’t want to troubleshoot themselves.
The arch advantage is that your system gets setup exactly how you want it and you have to consciously choose the software set you want to work with.
That minimalism is somewhat the point of the OS.
[dead]
> (idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro)
Trust me it was far more involved of a process 10 years ago, and that's why people liked it.
The modern install process is paired down to something like 10 steps. Start the ISO, configure your partitions, mount your root and boot, and use the delightful arch-chroot tool to enter and install in those partitions. Set up your user, configure your boot manager, exit the chroot, reboot, remove the install media, and boot into your bare bones system.
The install ISO has all the networking drivers and other tools you may need to bootstrap your new install, you just need to remember to do it. It's obviously not for total newbies but it's no gentoo, lfs, or even old arch.
My first distro was Slackware, which I setup all myself. I just don't see any true value in what could be a simple GUI.
I've had graphical installs inexplicably lock up or silently fail before, so it could be nice on a minimal system.
Personally, I get joy out of setting up a new machine exactly how I want. I haven't broken an arch install bad enough to require re-installing in almost 10 years so its rare I'm actually installing it anyway. If I want a system up quick I'll pick another distro.
I'm too invested into Gentoo at this point to really consider Arch, but hey, arch-chroot does make modern Gentoo installs just a bit quicker.
I use Arch but don't want to fiddle with stuff anymore.
Installing via the archinstall command was pretty easy. Not quite as easy as a Fedora or Ubuntu install, but for someone familiar with Linux, it's negligible.
Yeah, my last arch install was my last. It was fun to rice my system and setting up everything from scratch 4 or 5 times taught me a lot about operating systems and computers. Ultimately my setup is not significantly different than any other distro, it's just that I installed the packages and did configs myself. I'll be fine with a minimally riced system, if I ever even need to install an OS again.
> I know its a "meme" to talk about how great Arch is, but when you want the latest of something, Arch has it
I love my Arch installs to death, but I feel like I'm the oddball out about the mess that is AUR. The main repositories have a lot of things but I always end up getting pushed to AUR and then it just feels like I bolted on a hack rather than pacman/the arch base just supporting AUR more like a different package source normally.
What made you switch from Pop OS? I just installed it on a couple of old PCs I had lying around for my kids to play around with/learn from.
There was some 3D printer slicer software I needed that wouldnt run, when I finally figured out why it had to do with GLIBC being out of date. I have used Debian since like 2008, and Ubuntu since the mid 2010s so I am accustomed to doing PPA's and what not, but something in me broke and I wanted to finally try something more bleeding edge. I nearly went for Fedora but the version I wanted to try didn't even boot (I don't like to waste any time with command line incantations anymore) so I looked up EndeavourOS I don't remember how I found it, I think a friend said someone they knew used it (turns out they dont LOL) so I gave it a shot.
I had bad experiences with Arch before because of Manjaro, but in hindsight, I think the main issues I had were more to do with how Pacman can get insanely nuanced. When you update packages you have to know what you're doing, it will update all weird, its not like Debian or Ubuntu upgrades where it installs / uninstalls what you do and don't need unless you tell it to be that nuanced.
Long term stability is less important for gaming computers than having the most cutting edge (and theoretically highest performance) drivers. That's why the community leans so heavily towards arch.
Probably same reason most folks who are capable of running Linux don't stay on Ubuntu, etc.
I'm genuinely curious as to what the key differences are (especially those that would cause someone to switch), as someone who is pretty tech savvy but whose use of Linux as a daily driver is admittedly pretty weak.
You usually try a few distros, until you find the one that does whenever you needed, and then you stick with it for 15 years ;)
From my own experience: 15 years ago, when (except for academia), Linux was very nisje, it was hard to use it. Random rare errors would pop up. On Windows you would know someone who knew what to do, but with Linux? So I chose Ubuntu, because it had the most support. Solution to any error could be found on askubuntu (?) forums. But if you had a friend, you would choose his system and get help from him. I once had university admins very happy to help me with something and even give me some tips.
Nowadays it really doesn't matter that much, other than extra easy (with an LLM everything is already easy) installation of drivers (POP os?)/initial programs you used on Windows (on Mate it takes 10min due to a special GUI appstore).
BUT there are reasons to switch. Like Ubuntu's pushing of very annoying snaps, making it very hard to get Firefox without a snap. Snaps are annoying, because they don't have a cleaning mechanism and old versions just clog your hard drive. They take forever to launch and it's just not a good idea for a browser. Don't mind snaps for other things. There is also Desktop Environment support and support for hidpi monitors and such.
Other than that, there is a little of philosophy. Like super FOSS and idealistic like Debian (i guess? Pls correct me if I'm wrong). Or more business aligned, like Redhat/Fedora. Or elitist that like to waste their users time and make them read manuals for fdisk like Arch, where you have to format your hard drive without GParted or any other GUI.
I'm no pro, but that's a little that came to mind if you wanted to know what mattered in the past.
not OP, but for some it might be availability of latest versions packages (say, you've heard about new major version of Bash or Vim being released today, and wondering how soon it might be available in your distro packages), and, as someone else mentioned, less update stress due to lack of "major version bumps" - just remember to subscribe to https://archlinux.org/news/ and watch out for entries requiring "manual intervention".
I would say EndeavourOS is the "Ubuntu" to "Arch" if you will. The installer is easy, and it comes with "yay" out of the box which is a frontend to Pacman which holds your hand in just the right ways. If I want to update my OS I type "yay" into a terminal, hit enter and confirm the packages needing updating (or select which ones I want) and type my password, and that's it. In the past with Manjaro I did a system update with Pacman, and problems ensued.
Folks capable of running linux pick the best distro for the job at hand. They are tools, there is no progression like you're implying.
My homeserver is Ubuntu, my gaming PC is Arch.
I'm currently on Pop, but have an install of Cachy ready once I have some time and a stable connection. My main gripe of Pop (other than the COSMIC issues) was mostly audio issues with how they set up PipeWire and regressions with some releases. Do you find Arch to be a bit less of a headache when dealing with drivers?
My spare PC runs Win10. Was able to install it without internet and thus get an offline account.
Since they stopped full updates for it, it's a lot less annoying. Almost all the nags were at reboot time, usually triggered by the update giving it a new thing to nag about. Only thing now is it'll ask me once a month about either OneDrive or Win11, which is bad but tolerable.
I would love to switch from Mac. But Mac hardware is so resilient & haven't seen that in PC world.
I just got a new work laptop: the ThinkPad X1 Carbon gen13. It's gorgeous: weighs a bit over 900 grams, has an amazing matte OLED screen, Intel Lunar Lake that sips power (1-2W idle) and is fast enough to compile Rust if needed, amazing keyboard, touchpad is great but I just use the trackpoint, everything works from the box on Linux (they even deliver it with either Fedora or Ubuntu, but I installed CachyOS).
Suspend: works always. Battery life: great, the whole day. Wifi: works always, connects fast, works fast.
The build quality is really nice, especially the carbon fiber body that doesn't feel so cold/hot to touch.
If you have older Mac (based on the Intel CPUs), then it may actually already work out of the box for you to run linux. I'm running Debian on Macbook Pro 2015, fully replaced the original system and I haven't looked back.
What do you mean by that? As a long term windows user I've never had any issues running my laptops and PCs for years and years.
Dell, HP and Lenovo have been phenomenally resilient for us, going back more than 2 decades.
You can run Linux on Apple Silicon with Asahi Linux
There's a whole lot of asterisks that you're leaving out of that statement.
M1&2 yes with slight caveats, m3-5 not really (at least yet)
There actually is an installer for arch. I haven't tried it myself, but there should be an application included on the ISO called archinstall which helps with basically everything that's part of the install guide on the Arch wiki.
If I am understanding correctly, you were using Windows without a licence? I think that's more the problem here, as Windows does provide a way to have offline accounts, you just didn't want to pay for it.
Mu gaming needs are more than fulfilled with Steam/Proton and Xbox Live. Both of them work in Linux (Mint is my flavour of choice) and Mac.
Pacman -syyu
One command. That's why I won't use arch. This one command will fuck your system up, but only if you wait to long in-between doing it.
The only game I regularly play refuses to pay their anti-cheat for Linux support. After Windows 10 support ends, my gaming days are probably over.
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Simplicity, among other reasons. Installers force the users hand and need maintenance. Having no installer but rather a detailed installation guide offers unlimited freedom to users. Installation isn't difficult either, you just pacstrap a root filesystem and configure the bootloader, mounts and locale.
ArchLinux does now have an installer called archinstall, but it's described more as a library than a tool. It allows you to automate the installation using profiles.
Just to paint an example, if I am installing Arch I like to have:
* A user configured through systemd-homed with luks encryption
* The limine bootloader
* snapperd from OpenSUSE with pacman hooks
* systemd-networkd and systemd-resolved
* sway with my custom ruby based bar
* A root filesystem in a btrfs subvolume, often shared across multiple disks in raid0
If you were to follow the installation guide it will tell you to consider these networking/bootloader/encryption options just fine. But trying to create an installer which supports all these bleeding edge features is futile.
Also if you want 'Arch with sensible defaults' CachyOS is basically that, people think of it as a 'gaming distro' but that's not an accurate characterisation. I use it as a daily driver on my personal machine mostly for non-gaming work and it's an excellent distro.
There is though the TUI installer, not like it used to be where the commands were typed in following the wiki. Not that there was anything wrong with the 'manual' mode, it gave you insight into the basic building blocks/configurations right from the start.
It's been a very long time since I moved to Arch, but I swear that something like 12 years ago it did have some form of menu-driven installer.
Nowadays, there are so many ways to partition the drive (lvm, luks, either one on top of the other; zfs with native encryption or through dm-crypt), having the efi boot directly a unified kernel image or fiddle with some bootloader (among a plethora of options)...
One of the principal reasons why I love Arch is being able to have a say in some of these base matters, and would hate to have to fight the installer to attain my goals. I remember when Ubuntu supported root on zfs but the installer didn't it was rather involved to get the install going. All it takes with Arch is to spend a few minutes reading the wiki and you're off to the races. The actual installation part is trivial.
But then again, if you have no idea what you want to do, staring at the freshly-booted install disk prompt can be daunting. Bonus points for it requiring internet for installation. I would have to look up the correct incantation to get the wifi connected on a newer PC with no wired ethernet, and I've been using the thing for a very long time.
> One of the principal reasons why I love Arch is being able to have a say in some of these base matters
Exactly, Arch allows you to do many bleeding edge things. An installer would never keep up are give you that freedom.
> I remember when Ubuntu supported root on zfs but the installer didn't it was rather involved to get the install going.
That's why many installers allow you to drop a shell when it's time to partition.
> I would have to look up the correct incantation to get the wifi connected on a newer PC
To be honest that would largely be helped if archiso would start using NetworkManager
>It's been a very long time since I moved to Arch, but I swear that something like 12 years ago it did have some form of menu-driven installer.
Yep, removed in 2012 as the last maintainer quit. Maintaining an installer seems like one of the least fun hobbies.
> gave up with Windows 10 because you needed Windows Pro in order to make an "offline" account, I spent $2000+ for a gaming rig,
If you are spending 2000 for a gaming rig, a pro windows is like $200. Makes no sense.
Also, Apple is no better than Windows, so your post doesn't make sense.
What kinda graphics card do you have in there? I’m considering building one soon.
With the absurd price of RAM and flash storage (and still-fairly-high price of video cards) now is quite a bad time to purchase a new computer.
Having said that, I'm not the OP, but I currently have a Radeon 9070 (non-XT), and previously had a Radeon 5700 XT. Both work great.
How do you figure out Arch but not OOBE?
> I gave up with Windows 10 because you needed Windows Pro in order to make an "offline" account
You quit without even trying.
Windows 10 and 11 can have all local accounts by using RUFUS to create the install media. And if your PC comes with Windows already installed, there are still commands - even with 25H2 - that allow you to bypass the Microsoft Account requirement during setup and configure a local account.
And this is with both Home and Pro.
It's the same amount of effort to install Linux and never have to question who the owner of your computer is again.
> It's the same amount of effort to install Linux and never have to question who the owner of your computer is again.
In many ways, Linux is a complete paradigm change away from what is familiar and known in Windows, requiring a complete re-training from top to bottom.
Modifying the OOBE to bypass Microsoft Account requirement and permit a local account is a pebble in the road compared to the alpine pass that is switching to Linux.
And just installing Linux isn’t the issue. Learning from scratch an entire OS that behaves and is structurally very differently than Windows, and requires hundreds of hours to get equally as comfortable and knowledgeable in, is the issue.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Linux. But to say it’s “the same amount” is deeply disingenuous and borderline anti-reality.
''By the way, I use Arch''
The meme was “I use Arch, BTW,” but I think it has mostly died as enough people have pointed out that Arch isn’t really hard-mode Linux or something. It is a barebones start but
1) very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
2) the skill barrier to getting a full system is “basic literacy, to read the wiki”
Eventually I switched to Ubuntu for some reason, it has given me more headaches than Arch.
> 1) very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
Having very frequent updates to bleeding edge software versions, often requiring manual intervention is not "stable". An arch upgrade may, without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
That's fine if you're continuously maintaining the system, maybe even fun. But it's not stable. Other distributions are perfectly capable of updating themselves without ever requiring human intervention.
> 2) the skill barrier to getting a full system is “basic literacy, to read the wiki”
As well as requiring you to be comfortable with the the linux command line as well as have plenty of time. My mom has basic literacy, she can't install ArchLinux.
ArchLinux is great but it's not a beginner-friendly operating system in the same way that Fedora/LinuxMint/OpenSUSE/Pop!_OS/Ubuntu/ElementOS are.
> Having very frequent updates to bleeding edge software versions, often requiring manual intervention is not "stable". An arch upgrade may, without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
12 in the last year if you used all the software (I don’t many people are running dovecot and zabbix), so probably actually like 3 for most users: https://archlinux.org/
That’s not too dissimilar from what you’d get running stable releases of Ubuntu or Windows. And of course plenty of windows software will auto upgrade itself in potentially undesired ways, windows users just don’t blame the OS for that
I don't just mean the types of manual intervention mentioned in the news. ArchLinux ships bleeding edge software to users with very little downstream changes. ArchLinux also replaces config files when upgrading. This is inherently different behavior from stable release distributions like Ubuntu.
ArchLinux is not an operating system where you can do an unattended upgrade and forget about it. That's not "bad" or "good", that's just a design choice.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Frequently_asked_questions#...?
Arch replaces _unmodified_ config files when changing. It’s not an uncommon behaviour in software to update defaults to the new defaults.
If you have a modified config file, it puts the new default one in a .pacnew file for you to compare, which seems strictly better to just deleting the new default one.
Huh you're right, I must've confused myself by removing/installing instead of upgrading recently.
Anyway I think the discussion boils down to semantics. ArchLinux is not "unstable" in the sense that it is prone to breaking. But it also delivers none of the stability promises that stable release distros or rolling release distros with snapshotting and testing like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed deliver. To call ArchLinux stable would make every distribution stable, and the word would lose all meaning.
Most distributions promise that an upgrade always results in a working system. Instead moving the manual maintenance to major release upgrades.
> Having very frequent updates to bleeding edge software versions, often requiring manual intervention is not "stable".
I dunno. I have an arch installation that is maybe 4 years old, I might update every few weeks, and have only had one issue.
Any issues are usually on the front page of archlinux.org what the issue is, and how to fix it.
> without warning, replace your config files and update software to versions incompatible with the previous.
This is just nonsense, pacman doesn't do this. If you'd modified a config file, it will create a .pacnew version instead of replacing it. Otherwise you'll get the default config synced with the version of the software you've installed, which is desirable.
It's pretty rare to modify any config files outside of ~/.config these days anyway. What few modifications I have at the system level are for things like mkinitcpio, locale, etc and they never change.
> very stable due to rolling-release producing small changes
Can you elaborate on the chain of thought here? The small changes at high frequency means that something is nearly constantly in a <CHANGED> state, quite opposite from stable. Rolling release typically means that updates are not really snapshotted, therefore unless one does pull updates constantly they risk pulling a set of incompatible updates. Again, quite different from stable.
It's the same train of thought as the modern cloud software notion that deploying small changes more often is safer than bundling "releases"; if you upgrade 3 packages 3x a week (or deploy 50 lines of code 3x a week), you catch small issues quickly and resolve them immediately, rather than upgrading 400 packages 1x a year (or deploying 50,000 lines of code 2x a year), where when things break you have a rather tall order just to triage what failed.
I think there are advantages to both, but I will say that I've found modern Arch to be quite good. The other huge benefit of Arch is the general skill level present in the user base and openness of the forums; when something breaks it's usually easy to google "arch + package name broken" and immediately find a forum thread with a real fix.
I don't think I'd use Arch for a corporate production server for change management reasons alone, but for a home desktop and my home server, it's actually the distribution that's required me to do the _least_ "Linux crap" to keep it going.
It’s stable in the way that a person taking small predictable steps at a time is stable compared to somebody who making large random lurching steps. Sure, the system is often changed, but if only a few packages have changed, should there be a problem it is easy to identify the culprit.
Although it is hard to say. Ubuntu also has, I guess, intentional behavior that is hard to distinguish from a bug, like packages switching from apt to snap. So it might just be that my subjective experience feels more buggy.
I think op meant the subjective feeling of having a system that runs in a stable manner. I don't quite follow their reasoning either (maybe the smaller changesets expose compatibility bugs before affecting general ux?), but I agree that arch was a joy for me to use and felt "stable".
>the skill barrier to getting a full system is “basic literacy, to read the wiki”
if GenZ knew how to read they would be very disappointed right now
in the age of tablets and tiktok, basic literacy is quite a big ask
It really is nothing new. People quickly close windows with errors, they go out of they way to avoid reading actual message.
That's what they said about GenX, Millennials, and probably every other generation before them. Something something, "OK boomer."
they absolutely did not say that tiktok and tablets are destroying basic literacy about GenX or Millenials
if anything, they said the kids were good with technology
Yeah cause that's what he was talking about
I know. I was emphasising that this time is not like before. That there are major differences, and things look similar only on a very superficial level.
If ubuntu had stuck with APT for software installs instead of snap and whatever else, it would be a lock less headachey
I've started my Linux journey a decent year ago. It's been fun but I'm happy that they're such a great community to troubleshoot along with me. Never tried Arch but I do love a barebones no fuzz system.
You spent $2000 on a new machine but wouldn’t shell out another $20-30 for a windows pro key? You’re willing to burn a bunch of time fiddling with getting a completely new operating system setup, but you’re not willing to spend a few minutes fiddling with setting up an offline windows account?
I get that maybe that was the final straw or something, but come on, “I switched to Linux because I didn’t want to take an hour to set up Windows” really sounds like you never really wanted Windows in the first place, you were just looking for an excuse.
The main difference, in my opinion, is that to set up Linux one doesn't need to work around the expected behaviours of the OS.
And why would anyone put so much effort into making Windows usable now, when there is not knowing what Microsoft will do next?
> idk why Arch doesn't invest in whats standard in every other major distro
Because Arch maintainers are a bunch of elitist gatekeepers that don't accept any level of knowledge that is lower than theirs. You can see that through every forum interaction generally and any discussion about the installation process specifically.
Arch is great btw. It could be greater, if all maintainers would quit.
As a long-time Linux user who fairly recently dropped the Windows partition entirely, I do think the remaining chafing points are these:
* UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess. And now you don't just have different versions of GTK vs QT to keep track off, but also X vs Wayland, and their various compatibility layers.
* Support for non-standard DPI monitors sucks, mostly because of the previous point. Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
* Anything to do with configuring webcams feels like you're suddenly in thrown back 20 years into the past. It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't. Hoo boy.
* Audio filtering is a pain to set up.
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess
I thought you were talking about Windows there. There are 4 (5?) different UI paradigms within Windows, and doing one thing sometimes requires you to interact with each of them.
At least on Linux, with GTK/KDE, you can pick a camp and have a somewhat consistent experience, with a few outliers. Plus many apps now just use CSD and fully integrate their designs to the window, so it's hopeless to have every window styling be consistent.
I never had to mind X vs Wayland when starting user applications tho.
If we're talking about mass adoption of Linux then there really has to be no concept of even "picking a camp". The vast majority of users - even techy people - will not understand what a window manager is, never mind be capable of choosing one.
Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
Hard disagree. You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example). That's not a hurdle it's a feature.
Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things.
Yeah I wanted to say, for people who don't care, there's Linux Mint. (I used to spend all my time tinkering with the DE, now I prefer to spend zero!)
Except even with Linux Mint you have to choose which one ;)
Nope.
Linux user for decades, but headless since the early aughts. Decided to dip my toes back into the desktop space with Mint Cinnamon.
I can mirror or run lots of phone apps on Windows or macOS, but ironically, not Linux. I decide to run an Android emulator so I can use some phone-only apps.
I read up on reviews, then download and install Waydroid as the top contender.
Does Waydroid work? No. It fails silently launching from the shortcut after the install. Run it from the command line, and, nope, it's a window manager issue. Mint Cinnamon uses X11, not Wayland, and Waydroid apparently needs... Wayland support.
OK, I log out, log into Mint with Wayland support, then re-launch Waydroid. My screen goes into a fugue state where it randomly alternates between black and the desktop. Try a variety of things, and I guess this is just how it is. Google and try any number of fixes, end up giving up.
Yes, that's my old pal Linux on the Desktop. Older, faster and wiser, but still flaky in precisely the same ways.
You can't run X11 programs on Wayland without Xwayland.
Likewise you cannot run Wayland programs on X11 without a wayland compositor like Cage (a wayland kiosk) or Weston. Both run as a window on X11 inside of which Waydroid works just fine.
It's an odd complaint that incompatible software is incompatible.
You read the parent I was responding to, no? You're reinforcing my point.
"Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things."
I did. I agree it's not obvious. But you cannot run OpenGL, Vulkan, Glide or DirectX on Windows either without having the proper hardware and software installed. So yeah. Waydroid needs wayland. Anbox runs on X11.
> OpenGL, Vulkan, Glide or DirectX on Windows either without having the proper hardware and software installed
Windows will run at least basic OpenGL and DirectX in software if you don't have hardware to accelerate that, and those software renderers are included as part of the OS. It'll run like garbage, but it will run.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3darti...
I think that type of user wouldn't go out looking for an Android compatibility layer.
Bluestacks works fine for this on PC and Mac, and I've seen casuals use that because they want to play their gacha game on a bigger screen.
Waydroid compleatly fails in comparison, while giving you no pointers on what the problem might be or how to solve it unless you're already a Linux power user.
Headless daily driver? Hardcore. What do you use for a browser?
I've tried it as a challenge for a couple of days (lynx, mutt, some other TUI stuff) and it made some things like Vim stick (although that may have as much to do with that challenge as Tridactyl did). But I couldn't last longer than a week. It does free you from the burden of system requirements. CPU: Optional.
w3m can even display images in a linux console if you have the proper drivers or use KMSCON. It unwieldy but surprisingly usable. And my laptop battery runs for 8 hours which is quite amazing for a Zen1.
> And my laptop battery runs for 8 hours
I imagine your display is almost entirely black for the majority of the time, with your (most probably) LCD backlight blasting away, trying its hardest to get a few thousandths of its light output through the few pixels on the screen that it can escape! XD
Brightness down, LAN card disabled (the media sense on RTL cards sucks about 1.5W with no cable plugged in, wtf? Thats more than the Wifi needs)
And powertop (great piece of software, thanks Intel) tuned to the max + powersave scheduler. All that on Windows or KDE results in about 4-5h of battery though. So fbdev must be somehow really frugal.
That's cause you're using a distro like mint which is using older builds of stuff.
Get yourself a most recent plasma 6 Wayland setup with pipewire for audio. It even has rdp server now.
What's most likely happening is your user space app wants the newer API but you're running old builds from two years ago.
It will continue to degrade for you unless you fully switch to a Wayland DM.
Anything built on X11 is basically deprecated now and no one is building on it anymore.
> That's cause you're using a distro like mint which is using older builds of stuff.
The context here is that I was commenting on the parent's assertion that one "can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things." Nope!
> It will continue to degrade for you unless you fully switch to a Wayland DM. Anything built on X11 is basically deprecated now and no one is building on it anymore.
That's my impression as well, and again, with the 2nd most popular Linux distro using X11 by default and with "experimental" Wayland support, that only reinforces my rebuttal of parent's claim.
I don't recommend Mint for this reason. SteamOS or Nobara for the white glove premium experience.
> You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example)
The Flatpaks I've tried don't seem to understand this, however.
> Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
Just like Linux. You can run most if not all apps in any DE. Yes gnome will look ugly, but that's gnome's way of doing things. If you pick a decent DE, you will have most basic apps using the same styling, and the rest have CSD anyway.
Each GUI toolkit has its own specialties, but you'll use at most two of them, and they will be kept in separate apps. (Apart from flatpak portals which use gtk instead of the system's).
Windows has 3-5 different UI/UX layers within the same application ... And the rest have CSD anyway, so they look the same no matter the OS.
The same is true of Linux - GTK3 apps runs just fine on Plasma, and so do GTK4, and Qt 5, and Qt 6, and X11 apps, and on.
Sure they all look slightly different, but it's definitely worse on Windows in that regard.
> Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
I mean this is a solved problem on linux using modern distributions like NixOS or even 'normal' distros with flatpak, appimage, etc. I haven't had to deal with anything like this in years.
The windows UIs are way more different than linux was. There was a time in the 90s where UIs were expected to follow platform specifics. These days, most UIs don't and they're almost kind of like the branding. Thus, this is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. If anything, things like the gnome apps and gtk4 are more consistent than any windows app.
No, it's not about users picking a camp, it's about developers.
It's been a long, long time since I've seen an application utterly fail to load because it's a GTK/QT/etc framework running under a totally different DE.
Gnome apps look ugly as hell under KDE[0], but they still work. As a user, you don't need to know or care in any way. It'll run on your machine.
[0]I don't know if they're ugly because of incompatibility or if that's just How Gnome Is. I suspect the latter
>many apps now just use CSD
If there's something I hate about Linux, it's CSD (Client-Side Decorations, in case people don't know what it is).
If I wanted all my apps to look different from each other, I'd use macOS. I want a clean desktop environment, with predictable window frames that are customizable and they all look the same. CSD destroys that.
Having no CSD at all is unacceptable on small screens IMHO, far too much real estate is taken up by a title bar, you can be competitive with SSD by making them really thin, but then they are harder to click on and impossible with touch input. At the moment I have firefox setup with CSD and vertical tabs, only 7% of my vertical real estate is taken up by bars (inc. Gnome), which is pretty good for something that supports this many niceties.
Conversely, I don't want all of my apps to look identical to each other. I want to be able to tell with a submoment of a glance what app I am working on or looking for without having to cognitively engage to locate it, breaking my state of flow in the process.
You're defeating your own point. CSD in practice breaks a basic feature of the desktop : knowing at first glance which of the windows will receive whatever you type on the keyboard.
For eons the standard was: the only one with the title bar showing the theme accent color. That is consistent, predictable, keeps the user in the flow.
With CSD each app does whatever inconsistent thing they can fancy. You type and oops deleted something in the wrong window.
Alas now even many default SSD setups fail at this (selected and non-selected windows look pretty much the same) and keyboard-first workflow is much hindered.
That's what the title bar is for?
Linux doesn't mean GNOME.
KDE favors server-side decorations.
I know, in fact I'm using Linux Mint.
The problem is that sometimes you need to use a GNOME app that looks completely out of place.
I mean, most apps I use daily, no matter the OS, have CSD. Teams, Spotify, Slack, Firefox, Postman, IntelliJ etc...
Doesn't matter which OS they all have different styles. I can understand it's not liked by everyone, but that ship has sailed and no "big" app will use SSD anymore.
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess.
At least things look more or less the same over time. With commercial offerings one day you open your laptop and suddenly everything looks different and all the functions are in a different submenu because some designer thought it was cool or some manager needed a raise.
> It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't. Hoo boy.
LLMs are actually very useful for Linux configuration problems. They might even be the reason so many users made the switch recently.
Pair-programming Nix with Gemini has taught me a lot about the assistive power of LLMs.
They're still slow and annoying at languages I'm good at. But it's really handy to be able to take one I'm not (like Nix or even C++) and say "write me a patch that does …" Applying a lot of the same thinking/structuring skills, but not tripping on the syntax.
They're pretty good for most things, yes... but man was it rough figuring out getting my IP allocation routing right on my Proxmox server. The system is issued a primary IP, and need to route my subnet through that to my VMs... wasn't too bad once I got it working... I'd also wanted a dnat for "internal" services, and that's where it got tricky.
I need to refresh myself as I'm wanting to move from a /29 to a /28 ... mostly been lazy about not getting it done, but actually mqking progress oo some hobby stuff with Claude Code... definitely a force multiplier, but I'm not quite at a "vibe code" level of trust, so it's still a bit of a slog.
You could just let the VMs be normal IPs on the network....
Where would those IPs route to/from if it didn't have a configured default gateway exactly?
The machine got a single IP, I had to route the CIDR block using that IP as the gateway in the host OS. The VMs wouldn't just get assigned additional real IPs.
KDE & Gnome are both guilty of the same.
> Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
I think Windows is the only other one which really does this properly, macOS also does the hack where they simulate fractional scales by rendering with an integer scale at a non-native resolution then scaling it down.
> I think Windows is the only other one which really does this properly
Windows is the only one that does this properly.
Windows handles high pixel density on a per-application, per-display basis. This is the most fine-grained. It's pretty easy to opt in on reasonably modern frameworks, too; just add in the necessary key in the resource manifest; done. [1]
Linux + Xorg has a global pixel density scale factor. KDE/Qt handles this OK; GNOME/GTK break when the scaling factor is not an integer multiple of 96 and cause raster scaling.
Linux + Wayland has per-display scaling factors, but Chromium, GNOME, and GTK break the same way as the Xorg setup. KDE/Qt are a bit better, but I'm quite certain the taskbar icons are sharper on Xorg than they are on Wayland. I think this boils down to subpixel rendering not being enabled.
And of course, every application on Linux in theory can handle high pixel density, but there is a zoo of environment variables and command-line arguments that need to be passed for the ideal result.
On macOS, if the pixel density of the target display is at least some Apple-blessed number that they consider 'Retina', then the 'Retina' resolutions are enabled. At resolutions that are not integer multiples of the physical resolution, the framebuffer is four times the resolution of the displayed values (twice in each dimension), and then the final result is raster-scaled with some sinc/Lanczos algorithm back down to the physical resolution. This shows up as ringing artifacts, which are very obvious with high-contrast, thin regions like text.
On non-retina resolutions, there is zero concept of 'scaling factor' whatsoever; you can choose another resolution, but it will be raster-scaled (usually up) with some bi/trilinear filtering, and the entire screen is blurry. The last time Windows had such brute-force rendering was in Windows XP, 25 years ago.
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/win32/hidpi/settin...
> Windows is the only one that does this properly. Windows handles high pixel density on a per-application, per-display basis.
This is not our [0] experience. macOS handles things on a per-section-of-window, per-application, per-display basis. You can split a window across two monitors at two different DPIs, and it will display perfectly. This does not happen on Windows, or we have not found the right way to make it work thus far.
[0] ardour.org
> macOS handles things on a per-section-of-window, per-application, per-display basis.
No, it does not. If you have two displays with different physical pixel densities, and especially if they are sufficiently different that Apple will consider one 'Retina' and 'not Retina' (this is usually the case if, for instance, you have your MacBook's display—which probably is 'Retina'—beneath a 2560 × 1440, 336 × 597 mm monitor, which is 'not Retina'), then the part of the window on the non-Retina display will be raster-scaled to account for the difference. This is how KDE Plasma on Wayland handles it, too.
In my opinion, any raster-scaling of vector/text UI is a deal-breaker.
I think the only case where raster scaling is not a deal breaker is a window spanning high and low DPI displays. That is unless the app delegates compositing to the OS compositor which could then raster the contents at the different scales correctly. Not all content can be delegated to the OS - video games for example.
I think there’s one group of people who consider preserving the physical dimensions important that like the macOS approach. For me, if a window is across multiple displays then it’s already broken up and I’m not too bothered about that. What I care about is getting application UI to a reasonable size without blurring. MacOS doesn’t do that.
Actually, the default in MacOS is that the window is only on one monitor, and its the monitor where the cursor was when you last moved the window, so you might have a window appearing invisible because you dragged it near the corner and some sliver ended on another monitor.
Look at this complicated tinkering MacOS makes you do for something as simple as spanning windows across monitors! https://www.arzopa.com/blogs/guide/how-to-make-a-window-span... (OK this last part is slightly facetious but Linux gets dinged for having to go into menus because the writer wants something to work the way it does in on other operating systems the whole time)
ChromeOS also does fractional scaling properly because Chrome does it properly. The scaling factor is propagated through the rendering stack so that content is rastered at the correct scale from the beginning instead of using an integer scaling factor and then downscaling later. And it takes subpixel rendering into account too, which affects things like what elements can be squashed into layers backed by GPU textures.
I think Android does it properly too because they have to handle an entire zoo of screen sizes and resolutions there. Although they don't have the issue of dealing with subpixel rendering.
> then the final result is raster-scaled with some sinc/Lanczos algorithm back down to the physical resolution. This shows up as ringing artifacts, which are very obvious with high-contrast, thin regions like text.
I don't think this is true. I use non-integer scaling on my Mac since I like the UX to be just a little bit bigger, and have never observed any kind of ringing or any specific artifacts at all around text, nor have I ever heard this as a complaint before. I assume it's just bilinear or bicubic unless you have evidence otherwise? The only complaint people tend to make is ever-so-slight additional blurriness, which barely matters at Retina resolution.
Indeed, these artifacts sound like they're coming from Display Stream Compression [1] rather than scaling. I've had Macs occasionally use DSC when it wasn't necessary; power-cycling the display and/or changing the port it's plugged into usually fixed it. If it's consistently happening, though, it's probably because the display, the cable, the port, and/or the GPU can't handle the resolution and refresh rate at full bandwidth.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Stream_Compression
> ringing or any specific artifacts at all around text
There are a few Reddit threads that crop up when one searches for 'macOS ringing artifacts scaling'. For instance, these ones:
https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/1252ml8/strange...
https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/1ki58zk/fractional_s...
https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/l8oadr/macos_fringin...
All are ringing artifacts, typical of downscaling. I no longer have a Mac (chose one for work to try it out, saw this issue, returned it immediately), but I assure you this is what happens.
> The only complaint people tend to make is ever-so-slight additional blurriness
At no scale factor should there be any blurriness unless a framebuffer resolution is explicitly set. The 'scale factor' should be entirely independent of the physical resolution, which macOS simply does not do.
Apple's understanding and implementation of 'Retina' comes from a singular source: the straightforward doubling in each dimension of the display resolution of the iPhone 4 compared to the iPhone 3GS. It has not changed since, and has applied this algorithm throughout its OS stack.
All of these involve external monitors as far as I can tell, so it seems more likely it's the Display Stream Compression mentioned by the sibling to your comment that is the culprit.
Like I said, absolutely nothing like that happens on my display. I see the ringing in the first link. That doesn't happen to me. Not even a hint of it.
I get you don't like the scaling, but like I said, the very slight blurriness just isn't really noticeable in practice, especially given how Macs antialias text to begin with. Of all my complaints about Macs, this particular one is close to the bottom.
I gotta say, as the guy who brought up DSC, that last Reddit post especially had me doubting. That is not what DSC artifacts look like. DSC subsamples the chroma, which causes distinct color bleeding issues. That is luma bloom, which doesn't happen with DSC.
So I took my Mac Mini, hooked up to a 4K monitor, verified there were no DSC artifacts at native resolution, set it to "2560x1440" and sure enough the same artifacts appeared for me too, but still no telltale signs of DSC. So yeah, I gotta say, this is on Apple. Between this and dropping subpixel antialiasing support for text, it's pretty clear that their only properly supported configuration is 2x scaling on high-DPI displays.
Huh, very interesting.
OK, I just grabbed my loupe to make sure I'm not missing anything, and pulled up an app in dark mode (so ringing should be more visible) on my MBA M4. I'm using its built-in display. I've cycled through all 4 available resolution settings in Display, and absolutely zero artifacts or ringing. Then tried connecting to my LG UltraFine 4K which connects over Thunderbolt, that gives 5 resolution settings instead of 4, and zero artifacts/ringing on any of those either.
So I have no idea what's going on. I don't doubt that you're seeing it, and it's there in that Reddit photo. But maybe it's something specific to external monitors over a certain connection type or something? Seems very strange that Apple would use a different downsampling algorithm under different circumstances though.
I'd normally assume the most likely culprit would be some kind of sharpening setting on a monitor, as that can absolutely cause the type of ringing seen in that Reddit photo. But on the other hand, if you're testing it right now and not seeing it at native 2x, then that would seem to be ruled out, at least in your case. Maybe it's some kind of resolution negotiation mismatch where it's actually the monitor applying a second scaling that has ringing, since monitors can accept signals that don't match their native hardware resolution?
I can get a mild form of it on my M4 MBP's built-in display at "1800x1125"* but it's not nearly as noticeable as it was on the 4K external display at "2560x1440" and honestly I needed my cell phone camera zoomed in to definitively identify it, so that was more of a fishing expedition than a real problem. However, I have tried 2 different Macs, 2 different 4K monitors (both LG UltraFine also, though they differ in firmware version and color reproduction because of course they do), and 2 different interfaces (HDMI, Thunderbolt), and I can reliably replicate it under all of those combinations. I think that exact scaling factor probably has a bad interaction with the scaling algorithm. I do agree that a lot of other scalings do not produce the ringing/halo/bloom effect.
* = You have to go click "Advanced...", enable "Show resolutions as list", then when back on the main Displays page, enable "Show all resolutions", to get this and many other options -- but this is only necessary on the internal display, the external display offers "2560x1440" as a non-advanced choice
> All of these involve external monitors as far as I can tell
This happens on the native displays of MacBooks and iMacs, too. Try any of the 'looks larger'/'looks smaller' settings and it'll show up.
I've repeatedly explained that's not the case. Not on any Mac I've ever owned, and I already explained I thoroughly investigated my current M4 MBA. It's not showing.
That just means you can't perceive it. Sorry, but raster scaling is how Apple's algorithm works, and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it is not the case.
For the record, this isn't just visual. Rasterising to a framebuffer that is considerably larger than the physical resolution and then scaling produces a tangible effect on battery life. Not that it matters much with the impressive efficiency of the M-series SoCs, but it is there nonetheless.
I work a lot with Photoshop. I've studied digital signal processing. Believe me, I will perceive ringing when it's there.
You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding. Yes, raster scaling is how it works. I haven't disputed that anywhere.
I'm saying the ringing artifact specifically that you're complaining about is not happening on my setup, nor does it seem to be widespread. You were complaining about the specific Lanczos algorithm due to its noticeable ringing, I'm saying that therefore doesn't seem to be the algorithm being used on mine, nor is there any documentation that's the algorithm Apple uses. Your criticism seems to be based on partially wrong information, even if something like it seems to happen on certain external displays -- whatever it is, it's not a universal problem.
If you somehow missed my other comment, please read it:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46801536
This is a surprising opinion to encounter, given my experience with scaling on Windows, where simple things like taking my laptop off its dock (going from desktop monitors to laptop screen) causes applications to become blurry, and they stay blurry even when I've returned the laptop to the dock. Or how scaling causes some maximized window edges to show up on the adjacent screen. Or all manner of subtle positioning and size bugs crop up.
Is this more of an aspirational thing, like Windows supports "doing it right", and with time and effort by the right people, more and more applications may be able to be drawn correctly?
[edit] I guess so, I see your comment about setting registry keys to make stuff work in Microsoft's own programs. That aligns more closely with my experience.
Not sure about the underlying reason, but I use Windows for work and the only program I've encountered in the past two years with this behavior is the Eclipse IDE. Everything else deals very well with rescaling and docking / undocking to 4k displays.
> Windows is the only one that does this properly.
How can you say this when applications render either minuscule or gigantic, either way with contents totally out of proportion, seemingly at random?
I don’t have to pull out a magnifying glass to notice those issues.
These were probably written against the old-school Win32. It's pretty easy to fix.
Done.For MMC snap-ins like `diskmgmt.msc`, `services.msc`, or `devmgr.msc`, there's a Registry key you can set. See this ServerFault question: https://serverfault.com/q/570785/535358
The 'doing it right' part is from how it should be done, but it still needs application support.
The thing is X11/Xorg can also theoretically do the same thing (and most likely Wayland too) but it needs, you guessed it, application (and window manager / compositor) support.
> The last time Windows had such brute-force rendering was in Windows XP, 25 years ago.
To be fair, UXGA was a thing 20 years ago. I don't think it makes sense for Apple to care all that much about low DPI monitors. They don't sell any, and they wouldn't be acceptable to most Apple people, who have had crisp displays available for > 10 years now. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Apple users on low dpi is single digit percentage.
That's roughly what I did for my ANSI console/viewer... I started with EGA resolution, and each ega pixel renders 3x4 in its' buffer then a minor blur, then scaled to fit the render area. The effect is really good down to about 960px wide, which is a bit bigger in terms of real pixels than the original... at 640px wide, it's a little hard to make out the actual pixels... but it's the best way I could think of to handle the non-square pixels of original EGA or VGA... I went with EGA because the ratio is slightly cleaner IMO. It's also what OG RIPterm used.
I have precisely one Windows thing I use regularly, and it has a giant window that needs lots of pixels, and I use it over Remote Desktop. The results are erratic and frequently awful.
> * UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous me
I'd take balkanization over the "we force-migrate everyone to the hot new thing where nothing works".
> It'll probably work fine out of the box, but if it doesn't.
Drivers are a pain point and will probably stay so until the market share is too large for the hardware vendors to ignore. Which probably aren't happening any time soon, sadly.
This is not a driver issue I'm talking about. It's a "best way to adjust the white balance is with this GTK+-2.0 app that hasn't seen maintenance since the Bush administration" issue.
Yes, this one is quite a problem as well.
> I'd take balkanization over the "we force-migrate everyone to the hot new thing where nothing works".
The UI framework for macOS has not changed in any substantial design-update-requiring ways since OS X was first released. They did add stuff (animations as a core concept, most notably).
The UI framework for Windows has changed even less, though it's more of a mess because there are several different ones, with an unclear relationship to each other. win32 won't hurt though, and it hasn't changed in any significant ways since dinosaurs roamed the silicon savannahs.
The UI framework for Linux ... oh wait, there isn't one.
I had to dump a perfectly fine c.2012 workstation recently because of video driver limitations. Could no longer stay current on my flavor of Linux (OpenSUSE) and have better than hideous display resolution limited to just one monitor. NVIDIA’s proprietary drivers are great, but the limited support lifecycle plus poor open source coverage is actually making Linux turn fine systems into trash just the way Windows used to do.
>poor open source coverage is actually making Linux turn fine systems into trash just the way Windows used to do.
I'd blame Linux as a very small percentage of the problem here. This is on NVIDIA ensuring their hardware doesn't last to long and forcing you to throw it away eventually. Open source can make the monitor 'work' but really aren't efficient, and really can never be efficient because NVIDIA doesn't release the needed information and directly competes with their proprietary driver.
Couldn't you swap out for a now lower level AMD GPU? An RX 6600 should be under $200 and likely at least as good as what you were running... unless you were doing specific CUDA workloads. Even on PCIe 2/3, it should be fine.
On UI frameworks... mostly agree, I say this as a COSMIC user even... so many apps still don't show up right in the tray, but it's getting a bit better, I always found KDE to be noisy, and don't like how overtly political the Gnome guys are. So far Wayland hasn't been bad, X apps pretty much just work, even if they don't scale right.
I'm on a very large OLED 3440x1440 display and haven't had too many issues... some apps seem to just drop out, I'm not sure if they are on a different workspace or something as I tend to just stick to single screen, single display. I need to take the time to tweak my hotkeys for window pinning. I'll usually have my browser to half the screen and my editor and terminal on the other half... sometimes stretching the editor to 2/3 covering part of the browser. I'm usually zoomed in 25-30% in my editor and browser... I'd scale the UI 25% directly, like on windows or mac, but you're right it's worse.
For webcams, I don't use anything too advanced, but the Nexigo cams I've been using lately have been working very well... they're the least painful part of my setup, and even though I tend to use a BT headset, I use the webcam mic as switching in and out of stereo/mono mode for the headset mic doesn't always work right in Linux.
On audio filtering, I can only imagine... though would assume it's finally starting to get better with whatever the current standard is (pipewire?), which from what I understand is closer to what mac's interfaces are. I know a few audio guys and they hate Windows and mostly are shy to even consider Linux.
I'm using KDE with Wayland and 2 non-standard DPI monitors (one at 100% the other at 150% scale). No workarounds needed, nothing is blurry. I think your experience comes from GNOME which lacks behind in this regard.
FWIW, I can do the same with KDE on Xorg with Gentoo Linux.
Since the introduction of the XSETTINGS protocol in like 2003 or 2005 or so to provide a common cross-toolkit mechanism to communicate system settings, the absence of "non-integer" scaling support has always been the fault of the GUI toolkits.
> I think your experience comes from GNOME which lacks behind in this regard.
When doesn't GNOME lag behind? Honestly, most of Wayland's problems have been because a project that expects protocol implementers and extenders to cooperate in order to make the project work set those expectations while knowing that GNOME was going to be one of those parties whose cooperation was required.
Mint/cinnamon here at 150%, X11, not blurry. It’s FUD.
The issue with X11 is that it's not dynamic. Think using a laptop, which you sometimes connect to a screen on which you require a different scale. X11 won't handle different scales, and it also won't switch from one to the other without restarting it.
> The issue with X11 is that it's not dynamic.
No, it is. Maybe you're using an ancient (or misconfigured) Xorg? Or maybe you've never used a GTK program? One prereq is that you have a daemon running that speaks the ~20 year old XSETTINGS protocol (such as 'xsettingsd'). Another prereq is that you have a DE and GUI toolkit new enough to know how to react to scaling changes. [0]
Also, for some damn reason, QT and FLTK programs need to be restarted in order to render with the new screen scaling ratio, but GTK programs pick up the changes immediately. Based on my investigation, this is a deficiency in how QT and FLTK react to the information they're being provided with.
At least on my system, the KDE settings dialog that lets you adjust screen scaling only exposes a single slider that applies to the entire screen. However, I've bothered to look at (and play with) what's actually going on under the hood, and the underlying systems totally expose per-display scaling factors... but for some reason the KDE control widget doesn't bother to let you use them. Go figure.
[0] I don't know where the cutoff point is, but I know folks have reported to me that their Debian-delivered Xorg installs totally failed to do "non-integer" scaling (dynamic or otherwise), but I've been able to do this on my Gentoo Linux machines for quite some time.
I use whatever package is shipped by arch, so I think I'm fairly up to date.
I did look a bit into this at one point, but I've found that it's mostly QT apps which work fine with different scaling (telegram comes to mind). GTK apps never did, but I admit I never went too deep in the rabbit hole. Didn't know there was supposed to be some kind of daemon handling this. I do run xsettingsd, but for unrelated reasons. I'll have a look if it can update things.
In any case, except for work, I always used everything at 100% and just scaled the text as needed, which worked well enough.
> I've bothered to look at (and play with) what's actually going on under the hood, and the underlying systems totally expose per-display scaling factors...
Would you care to go into some details? What systems are those and how do you notify them there's been a change?
Maybe I got lucky but my external screen is at the same scale. 4k monitors are not expensive any longer, mine is perhaps ten years old.
That's also my setup, the external 4k monitor is roughly the same scale as my FHD laptop. I did this on purpose, to avoid having to mess around with scaling and just run everything at 100%.
But more and more laptops start having higher resolutions nowadays, and using my external screen at a scale of more than 100% would be a waste. But a 3-4k 14" laptop at 100% would be unusable.
the scaling and UI framework issues are by far my biggest pain point. I will inevitably end up with an app with tiny and/or blurry UI elements every few weeks and have to spend a ton of time figuring out the correct incantation to make it better.
This is on a pretty clean/fresh install of current ubuntu desktop
I'm a lifelong Mac user, but a gaming handheld has gotten me into some of these topics. I dual-boot SteamOS and Windows.
On SteamOS, my 5.1 stereo just works.
On Windows, apparently there was some software package called DTS Live (and/or Dolby Live) needed to wrap the audio stream in a container that the stereo understands. There was a time when there was a patent pool on the AC-3 codec (or something like that - I'm handwaving because I don't know all the details). So Microsoft stopped licensing the patent, and now you just can't use AC-3 on Windows. I spent an evening installing something called Virtual CABLE and trying to use it to juryrig my own Dolby Live encoder with ffmpeg… Never got it to work.
It's easy to fall deep into the tinkerhole on Linux, which has kept me away for a long time, but as mainstream platforms get more locked down, or stop supporting things they decide should be obsolete, it's nice to have a refuge where you're still in control, and things still work.
(Insert meme about the Windows API in Proton being a more stable target than actual Windows.)
Hardware support for esoteric things such as the new generation of Wacom EMR is still awkward --- I was able to get the previous gen working on a ThinkPad X61T using Lubuntu --- wish that there was such an easy way to try out Linux on my Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360....
> * Support for non-standard DPI monitors sucks, mostly because of the previous point. Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry. Every other major OS can deal with this.
This sounds like you're using some old software. GNOME and sway have clean fractional scaling without blurring, though that hasn't always been the case (it used to be terrible).
> Audio filtering is a pain to set up.
Like noise filtering for your microphone? It was pretty trivial to set up: https://github.com/werman/noise-suppression-for-voice
Fractional scaling on Wayland is only blurry for X apps, and even then, most apps have Wayland support at this point, so for the remaining apps, just turn off Xwayland scaling, and using native scaling through env vars and flags, and no more blurriness.
- Yes. I think big players in Linux should start supporting core functionalities in GNOME and KDE, and make it polished for laptops and desktops and that would be very cool. For a long time, KDE had a problem of having too many things under its umbrella. Now, with separation of Plasma Desktop and Applications, focusing on Plasma Desktop and KDE PIM should be a good step.
- Kind of ties to the old point: KDE on Wayland does this extremely well.
- You're back to 20 years because problems are exactly from 20 years ago. Vendors refusing to support linux with d rivers.
- Audio filtering? Interesting. I know people who use Pipewire + Jack quite reasonably. But may be you have usecase I am now aware of? Would be happy to hear some.
It would help if Gnome wasn't so hostile towards proper cross-DE interop. A famous quote by a Gnome dev goes, "I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an Xfce app unfortunately"
They seem to genuinely believe that their way is the right way and everyone else is "holding it wrong" so there's no need for things that would make cross-DE apps easier (or even possible).
> Wayland has fractional scaling as a sort-of workaround if you can tolerate the entire screen being blurry
Not blurry for me on KDE and I wouldn't tolerate blurry, I'd prefer the imperfect solution of using bigger fonts.
KDE Plasma 6 might be the only desktop that does this right on Linux.
I've also been running fractional scaling on Sway for many years now and native wayland applications are not blurry. X11 apps run through XWayland will be blurry, but I don't have any legacy X11 apps remaining on my system.
I use Linux as my daily driver, with a Mac laptop. I only use Windows when I absolutely have to (i.e., testing), and usually through a VM.
Some other rough edges in Linux I've encountered:
- a/v support in various apps. We use Slack for everything (I can't just use something else) and a/v support is pretty bad to where my video frame rate is now ~1Hz and screen share shows a black rectangle. I think that's mostly Slack's fault as Google Hangouts works fine, but it's probably low on their priority list.
- sleep / hibernation is still sometimes flakey. occasionally it won't wake up after hibernating overnight, and I have to hard reboot (losing any open files though that's not an issue)
- power management on laptops (and therefore battery life) is still worse than Windows, and way worse than Mac. I tried Framework + Linux for a while and really wanted to love it, but switched to a Mac and am not going back (still run Linux on desktop). There is nothing out there that compares to the M-series MacBooks.
- occasional X/Wayland issues, as mentioned
> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess.
Amen.
But, which OS doesn't have this problem? I'm currently running windows on a work laptop and even freaking first-party apps have a different look and behave differently from one another. Teams can't even be assed to use standard windows notifications! And don't get me started on electron apps, of which most apps are nowadays, each coming with their own look and feel.
Also, have you tried switching from light to dark mode, say at night? The task manager changes only partially. The explorer copy info window doesn't even have a dark mode! On outlook the window controls don't change colour, so you end up with black on black or white on white. You can't possibly hold up windows as a model of uniform UI.
So while I agree that this situation is terrible, I wouldn't pin it on the linux ecosystem(s).
> Every other major OS can deal with [high dpi].
Don't know about mac os, but on Windows it's a shitshow. We use some very high DPI displays at work which I have to run at 200%, every other screen I use is 100%. Even the freaking start menu is blurry! It only works well if I boot the machine with the high-dpi display attached. If I plug it in after a while (think going to work with the laptop asleep), the thing's blurry! Some taskbar icons don't adapt, so I sometimes have tiny icons, or huge cropped ones if I unplug the external monitor. Plasma doesn't do this.
IME KDE/Plasma 6 works perfectly with mixed DPI (but I admit I haven't tried "fractional" scales). The only app which doesn't play ball 100% is IntelliJ (scaling works, it's sharp, but the mouse cursor is the wrong size).
> Audio filtering is a pain to set up.
What do you mean? I've been using easyeffects for more than five years now to apply either a parametric EQ to my speakers or a convolver to my headphones. Works perfectly for all the apps, or I can choose which apps it should alter. The PEQ adds a bit of a latency, but applications seem to be aware of it, so if I play videos (even youtube on firefox with gpu decoding!) it stays in sync. It detects the output and loads presets accordingly. I also don't have to reboot when I connect some new audio device, like BT headphones (well, technically, on Windows I don't anymore, either, since for some reason it can't connect to either of my headphones at all). I would love to have something similar on windows, but the best I found isn't as polished. It also doesn't support dark mode, so it burns my eyes at night.
macOS and Windows have a much smaller set of variants, and tend to ship a single UI with everything included with OS. Even the best single desktop Linux distros will ship divergent KDE and Gnome apps.
If you want essentially perfect high-DPI support out of the box and can afford higher end displays, use macOS. It just works. I see the comments above about scaling, and to that, I say: most people will never notice. However, a Win32 app being the wrong scale? They'll notice that.
But the real display weak point of Linux right now vs Windows is HDR for gaming. That's a real shitshow and it tends to just work on Windows.
[dead]
I came to rely pretty heavily on Docker and WSL(2) in Windows. I was an insiders user for a bit over a decade, and worked with .Net and C# since it was "ASP+" ...
I had setup a dual boot when I swapped my old GTX 1080 for an RX 5700XT, figuring the "open source" drivers would give me a good Linux experience... it didn't. Every other update was a blank/black screen and me without a good remote config to try to recover it. After about 6 months it was actually stable, but I'd since gone ahead and paid too much for an RTX 3080, and gone back to my windows drive...
I still used WSL almost all day, relying mostly on VS Code and a Browser open, terminal commands through WSL remoting in Code and results etc. on the browser.
Then, one day, I clicked the trusty super/win menu and started typing in the name of he installed program I wanted to run... a freaking ad. In the start menu search results. I mean, it was a beta channel of windows, but the fact that anyone thought this was a good idea and it got implemented, I was out.
I rebooted my personal desktop back to Linux... ran all the updates and it's run smoothly since. My current RX 9070XT better still, couldn't be happier. And it does everything I want it to do, and there's enough games in Steam through Proton that I can play what I want, when I want. Even the last half year on Pop Coxmic pre-release versions was overall less painful than a lot of my Windows experiences the past few years. Still not perfect, but at least it's fast and doesn't fail in ways that Windows now seems to regularly.
Whoever is steering Windows development at Microsoft is clearly drunk at the wheel over something that should be the most "done" and polished product on the planet and it just keeps getting worse.
I want to chime in here. It's advertisements on my desktop that repels me. There is something deeply personal about ads in my desktop that feels like being violated. This is a computer that I paid for, with software that I pay for, that includes all my most personal files and data. Seeing ads on the OS completely eroded my trust.
Of course, I still use Windows for various things, but I have too much "ick" for it to be the system where I check my email, manage my business, keep my important files, etc.
Windows is really great for lots of things, but I don't trust it.
Yeah. The ads in he start menu are a sign that you are no longer the customer, you are the product. Windows has other similar “features”.
I do not have ads in my start menu, and no, I didn't "debloat" my PC. This is a base install where I flipped a couple of settings in the start menu options.
It was a test they ran on Insiders channel to see how people reacted to them. It never mated it into GA, or for that matter the entire insiders channels... They'll feature gate things to some insiders users and A/B test them to see how the user response looks. There was a bit of an uproar at the time for those that saw them, including myself... I ditched windows altogether (except my assigned work laptop).
I think some form of ads made it into the release channel. I recently did a clean install of Windows 11 25H2 and I could not figure out how to get App Store ads out of the search results in the start menu. That and a game working better on Linux than Windows was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me and I installed Ubuntu.
The OS has been full of ads for years. TV channel BS xbox this and that. You need magical PowerShell incantations w correct permissions etc to remove it. I saw ads in the Ubuntu installer! I’ve retreated back to FreeBSD and OpenSUSE Heaven help us.
How generous of them to allow their paying user to disable the ads. It's only a matter of time until this either becomes some sort of premium feature.
You're missing the point entirely.
The problem isn't that ads can be disabled. The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place. Full stop. There's no universe where that's acceptable product design, and the fact that you can disable them (for now, at least) doesn't make it less offensive.
I don't understand why you're going to bat for a trillion-dollar corporation here. Your settings work now. Great. They won't after the next feature update, this is a well-documented pattern. Windows updates routinely re-enable telemetry, Bing integration, and promotional content that users explicitly disabled. You're not configuring your OS, you're fighting it.
The TPM2 requirement is pure planned obsolescence. Millions of perfectly good machines binned because Microsoft decided hardware from 2016 is suddenly "insecure"... whilst the actual benefit is DRM enforcement and remote attestation.
It's a corporate compliance tool, not a security feature.
The Insiders build being referenced had actual web advertisements in search results. That's where this is headed. If you're comfortable defending that trajectory, carry on flipping those settings.
>whilst the actual benefit is DRM enforcement and remote attestation.
This is not highlighted nearly enough. It's very bad.
The articles surrounding the insider builds gaining "ads" are from 2024--now 1.5 years ago. So whatever was implemented is in the OS at this point--particularly items that showed up in the "Beta" channel of Windows. There's nothing new or current surrounding new ad placement on Windows except some Copilot items throughout 2025, if you consider copilot an "ad" and not a useful tool similar to Notepad, or Office.
The TPM2 requirement (and kind of by extension the IOMMU requirement, which is the one itself that bit most people) has significantly more benefits than "DRM" or "planned obsolescence". For one, did you know that TPM1.2 didn't include SHA2? Would you be okay relying on SHA1 hashing in 2026 to be used for digital signing? Of course you wouldn't. If I told you today to go generate an X.509 certificate with SHA1 you're going to look at me funny. Did you know it also didn't include ECC? Also much more useful in this day and age for cryptographic speed. There are many other features I don't feel like digging into at the moment, but you get the point.
I would counter that the downstream requirement for the IOMMU (useful for Hypervisor Enforced Code Integrity), in which Windows itself is broken up into "Virtual Trust Levels" (VTL0, VTL1, and I think there are some newer ones now as well); is extremely useful for securing early parts of the platform boot.
Or did we collectively forget about the early rootkit era of Windows XP from 2005-2010 when running with legacy/MBR boot mechanisms?
Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security--and this goes for any platform: MacOS, Windows, Android, iOS, or Linux.
Apple, Google, and Microsoft have some form of integrity control over their platforms along with dedicated security chips. Short of some exploits, the most common vector to get into Windows' early boot process is to steal or abuse code IHV kernel driver signing certificates; or in some cases, be maliciously issued one from Microsoft (lol, now THAT is indeed a problem, but a tough one).
This is just part of modern platform security at this point so I don't really see the issue.
In addition, TPM2 offers significantly more storage and
> Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security
I notice you omitted the BSDs and with OpenBSD in particular I’d argue your point is correct for the majority school of thought but not necessarily most correct whatever that means. Correct for a certain set of priorities.
Modern OS attack surface is an insane nightmare. The concept of securing it at all is.. idk what it is. OpenBSD default install you run ps you get 12 processes. You can reason about the OS. You focus on you boundary. You don’t admit scenarios where your attacker is poking around usedland. That’s game over on these byzantine OSes we have now. Even better NetBSD where the arch is the security. The SELinux idea makes the best with what we have where you need Linux for driver whatever support. So I’m not disagreeing necessarily but adding context. As far as generating certs users are better off with piv yubikey etc for pki so it’s in their hands, literally
You paid for windows 11? They basically give it away to end users.
Yes, I paid for Windows 11. It came bundled with the £1,900 laptop I bought. The fact that the licence cost is hidden in the hardware price doesn't make it free.
And even if it were free, which it isn't, that still wouldn't justify ads. Android is free. Linux is free. Neither ships with gambling app promotions in the system UI.
Microsoft made $20 billion in Windows revenue last year. They're not a scrappy startup looking for alternative monetisation. The ads exist because they can get away with it, not because they need to.
> The fact that the licence cost is hidden in the hardware price doesn't make it free.
I appreciate manufacturers who make this obvious. For example, when I bought the Framework laptop I'm using now, the OS choices were preinstalled Windows 11 (default selection), preinstalled Linux (-$150), none/I'll install my own (-$150). Made it clear exactly what I would have been paying for the Windows license if I had chosen Windows.
Many variants of Android ship with ads, particularly on cheaper phones. Xiaomi phones for instance.
Let me know when Android base OS has ads in the UI.
If the largest advertising company on the planet isn’t making it part of the base operating system — then that should tell you something, don’t you think?
Does the vanilla OS even run on any phones? To my knowledge a large part of the system functionality is implemented through google play services which isn't open source (and that's presumably why it's not part of the base system).
OEM volume pricing is $20 USD or so for system builders like Dell, HP, etc last time I saw it, but that was a long time ago. So technically yes it was purchased if you bought a system, it was just built into the price.
Not really. Only upgrading an existing Windows 10 installation is free.
> The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place.
You never buy a laptop or pre-build? They are often full of ads that are not Microsoft Windows build in but add-on by the OEM.
Now i agree that Ads in your OS that you paid for, is a big nono. I never understood why Microsoft threats Home and Pro as almost the exact same. Sell Home for cheaper and with Ads, but keep the more expensive Pro clean. Microsoft can do that easily because Windows Server is just that ...
But on the Linux front, i have never been happy with the desktop experience. Often a lot of small details are missing, if the DE itself not outright crashes (KDE, master in Plasma/Widget crashes!). And so many other desktop feel like they have been made in the 90s (probably are) and never gotten updated.
And i do not run W11, still on old and very stable W10. There is no reason to upgrade that i see. Did the same with W7, for years after support ended (and by that time W10 was well polished and less buggy).
The problem is, what does Linux Desktop offer me more, then a few annoyances that i can remove after a fresh install? Often a lot more trouble with the need to use the terminal for things, that are ancient in Windows. That is the problem ... With Apple, you can get insane good M-CPU hardware (yes, mem/storage is insane), for the os/desktop switch.
I noticed that often the people who switch to Linux, are more likely to send more time into finetuning their OS, tinkering around, etc... aka people with more time on their hands. But when you get a bit older, you simply want something that works and gives you no trouble. I can literally upgrade my PC here from a NVidia to AMD or visa versa, and it will simply work with the correct full performance drivers. Its that convenience that is the draw to keep using (even ifs a older) Windows.
For now 25 years every few years, i look at upgrading to Linux permanently, install a few distro's and go back. Linus Desktop does not feel like you gain a massive benefit, if that makes sense? Especially not if your like me, who simply rides out Microsoft their bad OS releases. What is the killer features that you say, hey, Linux Desktop is insane good, it has X, Y, Z that Microsoft does not have, its ... That is the issue in my book. Yes, it has no adds but that is like 5 min work on a fresh install, a 2 min job of copy/past a cleanup script to remove the spyware and other crap and your good for year. So again, killer features?
Often a lot of programs that are less developed or stripped down compared to Windows, let alone way too often 90 style feels programs. You can tell its made by developers often, with no GUI / Graphical developers involved lol
I said it a 1000 times but Linux Desktop suffers from a lot of distro redoing the same time over and over again. Resulting in this lag ...
That is my yearly Linux rant hahaha. And yes, i know, W11 is a disaster but i simply wait it out on W10, and see what the future brings when the whole AI hype dies down and Microsoft loses too much customers. I am betting that somebody is going to get scared at MS and we then get a better W12 again.
I've been pretty happy with Pop in general, I did upgrade to COSMIC pre-release about 6 months ago, and although there have been rough edges, less than some of my Win11 experiences. I don't really fiddle that much in practice, I did spend a year with Budgie, but only the first week fiddling. Pop's out of the box is about 90% of what I want, which is better than most.
I do use a Macbook M1 Air for my personal laptop and have used them for work off and on over the years... I'm currently using a very locked down windows laptop assigned from work. Not having WSL and Docker have held me back a lot though.
In the end, I do most of my work in Linux anyway... it's where what I work on tends to get deployed and I don't really do much that doesn't work on Linux without issue at this point. Windows, specifically since Win11 has continued to piss me off and I jumped when I saw something that was just too much for me to consider dealing with. I ran insiders for years to get the latest WSL integrations and features. This bit me a few times, but was largely worth it, until it wasn't anymore.
C# work is paying the bills... would I rather work on Rust or TS, sure... but I am where I am. I'm similar to you in that I looked at Linux every few years, kicked the tires, ran it for a month or a couple weeks and always went back. This time a couple years ago... it stuck. Ironically, my grandmother used Linux much longer than I ever did on her computer that I maintained for her. For her, it just worked, and she didn't need much beyond the browser.
> You never buy a laptop or pre-build? They are often full of ads that are not Microsoft Windows build in but add-on by the OEM.
This was never acceptable, but we tolerated it because it subsidised the cost of the laptop, OEMs decided the trade-off and you could vote with your wallet for cleaner experiences (often with the same manufacturer).
Show me the ThinkPad T or X series (or EliteBook, or Precision/Latitude) that shipped with ads and I'll take it as a valid point. Otherwise, it's not valid.
Switching OSes is a major undertaking for power users, which I assume you are. Less so for someone who uses the browser, email, and plays some games.
As a power user, there's no point trying out OSes occasionally, unless that's your hobby. Think of it as switching between flying Boeings or Airbuses as a pilot; there's going to be a learning curve that you're going to have to commit to if you want the full benefits. I use the analogy to illustrate the point; OSes as users are definitely not nearly as complex to drive.
That said, the unstable experiences you're describing are odd. Maybe you're running into some odd edge case because that unstable experience hasn't been the case for mainstream Linux users for a couple of decades.
Neither is there a need to tinker with the big mainstream distros either. Most are install-and-forget these days and have been so for a while.
> if the DE itself not outright crashes (KDE, master in Plasma/Widget crashes!). And so many other desktop feel like they have been made in the 90s (probably are) and never gotten updated.
All modern Linux desktops feel more advanced than the corresponding windows version, IMO. I just installed standard Raspbian on a bunch of Raspi5s, and it feels snappier and more advanced than Windows already.
> I noticed that often the people who switch to Linux, are more likely to send more time into finetuning their OS, tinkering around, etc... aka people with more time on their hands. But when you get a bit older, you simply want something that works and gives you no trouble.
> Yes, it has no adds but that is like 5 min work on a fresh install, a 2 min job of copy/past a cleanup script to remove the spyware and other crap and your good for year. So again, killer features?
First thing you do after you install windows is fine tune it lol. For what it's worth, I just installed the latest debian on a Minisforum mini PC and it was clean and easy. Everything works out of the box, including bluetooth and gaming (surprisingly well given only has an integrated GPU). Same experience with two of my wifes laptops.
Now I did have issues with my desktop due to running bleeding edge hardware, but those all got resolved within months on its own and a clean install is now no hassle at all.
In short, I'm now older and don't have time to tinker with my PCs. That includes reverting whatever bullshit Microsoft decided to foist upon me, so now I run base debian and won't be buying bleeding edge hardware anymore.
For those that want to remove items, You can quickly disable these options by going into Settings > Personalization > Start and turn off "Show recommendations for tips, shortcuts, new apps, and more".
It's like a 10 second fix and basically everything is gone.
That's not what I'm referring to... it was a beta test that included actual internet ads in the start menu search results... It was literally a product I was looking at on the previous day.
Again, let's clarify here.
Microsoft implemented, in its Beta Windows Insider Channel in 2024, ads in the "Recommended" section of the Start Menu. The very section I just described pretty plainly how to turn off.
I mean I don't understand why everyone is so puffed up about this. You read some internet headline and start screeching about it on social media as if it doesn't take 2 seconds to literally turn off.
AGAIN this is NOT what I was referring to... I'm referring to when you start typing in the name of a program you have installed, and you get a short list of matches, with maybe additional results... not a PRODUCT ADVERTISEMENT (not software) from the internet at the top, which is what I got.
It's not a feature that should EVER exist at an OS level... I didn't even mind the adjacent product ads or the Recommended section you mention that much... but it's emphatically not what I'm fucking talking about.
The fact that this was even something that was implemented and tested means that I'm not someone who will buy or choose Microsoft Windows at all from here forward. I have over 3 decades of development experience on/for/with software that runs on Windows.
An even then... It doesn't matter if I can shut it off, it shouldn't have existed in the first place.
I think it's critically important that when arguing on the internet you bring data driven information and not emotions. Although I know for many people, particularly in tech, operating system choice is an extremely subjective, emotional-driven, and personal, almost religious decision-making process.
But I like data. And that's what I'm going to stick with. Your experience is not my experience.
That said, I distinctly remember back in the Windows 98 days (inarguably one of the most highly regarded versions of Windows ever released which had extreme staying power throughout the Windows XP era); they used to automatically include the Channel Bar to the right on the "Active Desktop". This bar included links to Disney, AOL, MSN, MSNBC, among other items. No doubt Disney paid good money to be default installed and opened on every Windows PC of the time.
So it's not like including some level of advertising hasn't been a precedent for 30 or so years.
As a reply to this, because it's important. Searching does indeed bring up ads, however, they're to the right and only if you do not have whatever it is you're searching for installed.
I know this is splitting hairs, but I like data and not emotional driven decisions. When I tap "Start" and search for "World of Warcraft", which is installed on my PC, the very first item is the shortcut to WoW on my PC.
In terms of Start Menu Zones (as I'm calling them), on the Left is the "best Match", which links to WoW on my PC. The next zone beneath that is "Apps", which are the multiple permutations of WoW on my PC, and beneath that is "Search the Web", which offers a few search terms related to WoW. Beneath that is a "Store" link to WoW, which links to the Microsoft Store. The right zone of the Start Menu offers a menu of what I want to do with the app: Open, Run as Administrator, Open File Location, Pin to Start, Pin to Taskbar, or Uninstall.
This is the same behavior on all programs I have installed on the PC: I can type "Steam", same behavior. Discord, same behavior, Signal, same behavior, Battle.Net, same behavior, etc.
Now, for items that are not installed on my PC, for example, Half Life. Since I don't have it on my PC, it immediately wants to only search the web. On the right zone, which on installed apps shows a menu of options, this now shows a mini Bing search window which basically has sponsored content at the top with ebay links to Half Life editions (also holy crap those are expensive).
So for applications not installed on my PC? Yeah, it's showing me some search bing ads. For every application installed on my PC? It's not showing any ads.
From what I'm reading, it seems many people have a workflow that leverages the start menu pretty heavily. My workflow since the early days of XP has never included the start menu. In Windows XP, I used the Quick Launch Bar and always had a 2nd row of icons above my taskbar for which I used to open apps. When Microsoft changed this, I simply pin everything to the taskbar instead and use that. The only time I use the start menu to search and load something is usually if I want to CTRL+SHIFT+ENTER to run whatever that is as Administrator. And that workflow has never once "tricked" me into loading any ads, websites, bing searches, or anything. It has always, for over a decade including on Windows 11 25H2 done exactly what I was expecting every single time.
So perhaps our workflows differ for which this is an annoyance for you, but I cannot replicate your specific problem that you mentioned.
It might be different if they didn't push updates every other month that changed settings like default browser back to their products.
You're right that there are simple fixes but the point is that Microsoft is no longer on your side. You're now stuck defensivly scrambling for value in a product where you are no longer the customer.
The Ass-Fucker 3000 fucks you in the arse when you use your car ignition.
But don't get bent out of shape - you can disable it in settings. Takes 10 seconds. Assuming you know it exists and the option doesn't disappear in a future update.
And if it re-enables itself after the next patch? Well, at least the option to disable it still exists! Probably.
Why would you buy a different car? It's so easy to turn off. What, you want to use a BMW? Be a BMW-user? A sheep? All your tools already integrate with our car anyway. There's no real choice, is there - unless you want to be a try-hard. And maybe it doesn't even work properly. You don't want that hassle, do you? Just accept the Ass-Fucker 3000. Next week they'll add the Wife-Beater 2000, but don't worry -that'll have a toggle too.
Cope harder. I wish I had apologists like you for my software.
This sounds like Boeing MCAS cant.
I mean you can also copy my dotfiles onto your linux machine and have a more advanced system than anything windows would provide, and it'll take less than ten seconds, but this is 'fiddling' or somethin.
It's really hard to maintain a product team where the mandate is just "don't break anything and keep the quality high". Especially something with as big of an installed base as Windows.
The team will look for excuses to build new and exciting stuff and new opportunities to increase revenue. Even if the product is pretty much "done".
I disagree, I think companies mostly just don't want to spend development money on existing "finished" products. That's the smell I'm getting from microsoft.
There are plenty of easily identifiable issues with performance in windows 11. There should be people in the windows team dedicated to eliminating "jank". MS product owners, on the other hand, are much more interested in getting copilot integrations into every menu. That's an "easy" task which looks good on a scorecard when you complete it.
No, it really shouldn't be... You can reduce headcount a lot, which they did, and concentrate on bugs (including security reports), while working with hardware vendors for if/when new features need to be integrated for better usability.
If/when you decide to do a redesign, it should be limited to a specific area, or done in such a way that all functionality gets moved to its' new UI/UX in a specified timeframe and released when done. Not, oh, here's a new right click menu that you now have an extra click 1/3 of the time for the old menu that has what you are actually looking for because the old extension interface was broken.
Want a real exercise in fun ... just for fun, because I know it's not as useful on a laptop, but was fun on desktops... get a screensaver working in windows that runs for an hour or so before going to sleep... just try it... that's a fun exercise in frustration... oh, it's still in there, but every third update will disable it all again. I get it... but you know what, I want my matrix screensaver to run when I'm only away for a few minutes or over lunch.
The mandate seams to be "squeeze everything for a subscription fee and keep the quality... actually just the first thing".
Every month more and more people switch to Linux and I just love it. I'm tired of one company controlling the core operating system of 85% of desktop computers and users being at their whim.
You want proprietary programs? Alright, fine, one can argue for that. But the central, core operating system of general purpose computers should be free and fully controllable by the users that own them!
It's a form of Stockholm Syndrome for most people. They'll have some bit of software they imagine is irreplaceable because they have some special use case that means that they just have to tolerate the relentless abuse. Or some other excuse. Whatever. It all boils down to people being afraid of change.
Most of that fear is not all that rational. It's not unlike kidnap victims falling in love with their captors. Your mind just tries to make the most of what fundamentally is a really messed up situation. You'll tell yourself it isn't that bad or that the next update will fix it or that you can get some magic software thingy that makes it go faster. Whatever.
Once you realize you are being abused, you can make some choices and do something about it. Most tools can be replaced if you look around a bit and do a bit of research. And virtual machines on Linux can run Windows just fine if you have one or two things that just really need it (been there done that). There's also wine and proton which aren't half bad these days. And they work for lots of things other than games. You can dual boot. Etc. Try it and find out. The absolute worst case is that you have to go back to being a lame abuse victim here. You'll feel extra bad because now you know. The best case gets you out of that abusive relation ship for the rest of your life. Life is too short to get subjected to this kind of abuse.
This might have some merit for some people.
But the talk of abuse is also heavy-handed.
I've spent months testing and trying out RAW photo editors, and months trying out Linux gaming.
Linux is incredible, but my experience with Windows is still better. As many that still use it can attest, you can disable almost any annoyance. It's extremely stable. Things just work including brightness controls, fractional scaling, high refresh rates and high FPS gaming, and my favorite RAW photo editing. I could switch to a less enjoyable experience with Linux but I choose not to after extensive evaluation. I don't spend any money on Microsoft services, no Office or OneDrive subscription.
But my decision isn't permanent. My hobbies, software use, gaming selection, etc. can change over time, and Linux is getting better while Windows is getting worse. If it's ever "abuse" and I can have a better experience with Linux, I won't hesitate to change. But it's also a lot of effort to try out alternatives, and dual booting is slow and annoying. Plus when I dual boot to Linux Mint the kernel fails to boot every other time and I have to select an older one, reboot, select a newer one, reboot. It's a huge waste of time. A bad experience and I have chosen to avoid it and try again in another year or two.
Worthy mention of RapidRAW for photo editing on Linux: https://github.com/CyberTimon/RapidRAW
Did you try Rawtherapee?
Yes, and Dark Table.
In the end I love, love, love DxO PhotoLab and would really like to stick with it over the alternatives.
Fair enough. I like Rawtherapee, it gets the job done for all of my needs. What did you like/dislike?
Mostly it came down to interface, learning curve, enjoying using the software vs. struggling to get photos to look awesome.
I don't think it's Stockholm Syndrome, rather it's a classic case of sunken cost fallacy. For me at least, that's what it was. I had invested so much time in Ableton (~14 years) and didn't feel like starting from scratch with another DAW. And let's be real, no one likes that kind of friction.
It had to get worse to finally break the inertia and also make me realize that it's only going downhill.
I'll note that sunken cost is not always a fallacy, or perhaps I should phrase that as "things that look like the sunken cost fallacy aren't always that fallacy". In your specific case, for example, you didn't feel like starting from scratch, because that would involve paying a cost (in terms of time learning a new system) that you didn't want to pay. So it's not actually "I sunk so much time into this, I want to get my money's worth" as it is "cost of learning something new: high. Cost of sticking with what I know: zero." So not exactly the same as the sunk-cost fallacy.
I've dual booted for over a decade at this point and I still need to switch back and forth for different things.
> Every month more and more people switch to Linux
We've been hearing this for decades and yet the home Linux userbase is microscopic and somehow even smaller than ever. Unless we're going to count Google's Android and Chrome OS. Those are the only Linux-based distributions that have ever gained market share over desktop Windows.
Somehow I think the stars might be aligning this time though. People are genuinely fed up with Windows and governments around the world are loudly thinking about how to reduce dependence on US tech. And then there is Proton which makes it much easier for Gamers to jump ship. To me it feels like there is more momentum than ever for this.
On the other hand I am also a realist and I don't think that Linux will take over the Desktop, but it will certainly have its biggest growth year ever in 2026.
> On the other hand I am also a realist and I don't think that Linux will take over the Desktop, but it will certainly have its biggest growth year ever in 2026.
I _love_ Linux, but I agree with this as well. I don't think Linux will ever be easy enough that I could recommend it to an elderly neighbor. I hope to be proven wrong, though.
What frustrates me about this particular moment is that at the same time Windows is getting worse, I feel that OS X is _also_ getting worse. This _is_ an opportunity for Apple to put a big dent in Windows market share.
> I don't think Linux will ever be easy enough that I could recommend it to an elderly neighbor.
The only reason I wouldn't do this is because that elderly neighbour wouldn't be able to install Linux and might not have any obvious place to get support from. Where can Grandma go to get support for her Linux laptop, even if she's willing to pay?
However, in a world where they can buy a laptop with Linux preinstalled and receive support from the same shop they bought it from if they do run into problems, then absolutely I would (not that that support is going to be great, but then they're at least no worse off than they were when they need support with Windows or a Mac, and I imagine they'll run into less problems on Linux than on Windows, given their use cases are likely to be very narrow and simple, i.e. web browser, e-mail, maybe simple office stuff).
> What frustrates me about this particular moment is that at the same time Windows is getting worse, I feel that OS X is _also_ getting worse. This _is_ an opportunity for Apple to put a big dent in Windows market share.
Aye, I agree. MacOS has been getting a bigger slice of the pie, but it's hard to ascribe what's the main cause, and to what extent each cause is contributing. We got the M chips being ungodly good (even the M1 is still serviceable, and damn right affordable even at this point), Windows growing worse, but the laptop market is also contracting, with a steady stream of people leaking out, saying 'screw this, I'll just use my phone or tablet. I don't need a PC for anything anymore.'.
All the casuals I know use a Mac for a laptop because they want something simple and functional, and Macs do that job, but they keep doing that job worse and worse. Everybody else casual might have a Windows laptop, but barely ever use it. The rest are gamers and power users, and thus need a proper machine and can't stick to a phone and tablet.
Apple could attract from the groups who would otherwise be done with non-phone/tablet computing, but their offering is growing weaker and weaker.
> I don't think Linux will ever be easy enough that I could recommend it to an elderly neighbor.
If it helps, I setup a few elderly folks (now approaching 80s) across two continents that have been merrily using Linux/Ubuntu-LTS for a decade+
> Somehow I think the stars might be aligning this time though
> governments around the world are loudly thinking about how to reduce dependence on US tech
I am definitely sympathetic, after all, I worked for a major Linux company for quite a few years, started using Linux RH) in 1994, and even wrote some network related kernel modules.
However, this switch to Linux is not going to happen (apart from where it is already used heavily, from servers to many non-PC systems).
I have been in projects for large companies but also government on and off. Now, I manage the IT of a small (<50 employees) non-IT business with people in several countries.
People who actually comment in these discussions seem to be entirely focused on the OS itself. But that is what matters the least in business. Office is another, and even there most people who don't deal with it at scale are way too focused on some use case where individuals write documents and do some spreadsheeting. It's almost always about a very small setup, or even just a single PC.
However, the Microsoft stack is sooooo much more. ID management. Device management. Uncountable number of little helpers in form of software and scripts that you cannot port to a Linux based stack without significant effort. Entire mail domains are managed by Office 265 - you own the domain and the DNS records, you get licenses for Office365 from MS, you point the DNS records to Microsoft, you are done.
Sure, MS tools and the various admin websites are a mess, duplicating many things, making others hard to find. But nobody in the world would be able to provide soooo much stuff while doing a better job. The truth is, they keep continuously innovating and I can see it, little things just conveniently showing up, like that I now have a Teams button to create an AI script of my conversations, or that if more than one person opens an Office document that is stored in OneDrive we can see each other inside the document, cursor positions, and who has it open.
Nobody in their right mind will switch their entir4e org to Linux unless they have some really good reasons, a lot of resources to spare, and a lot of experience. Most businesses, for whom IT is not the be-all-end-all but just a tool will not switch.
But something can be done.
The EU could, for example, start requiring other stacks for new special cases. They cannot tell the whole economy to switch, not even a fraction of it, but they could start with new government software. Maybe - depends on how it has to fit into the existing mostly Microsoft infrastructure.
They could also require more apps to be web-only. I once wrote some code for some government agency to manage business registrations, and it was web software.
The focus would have to be to start creating strong niches for local business to start making money using other stacks, and to take the long road, slowly replace US based stacks over the next two or three decades. At the same time, enact policies that let local business grow using alternative stacks, providing a safe cache-flow that does not have to compete with US based ones.
The EU also needs some better scaling. The nice thing about the MS stack is that I can use it everywhere, in almost all countries. The alternative cannot be that a business would have to use a different local company in each country.
I read a month ago that EU travel to the US is down - by only ~3%. Just like with any calls for boycott of this and that, the truth is that those commenting are a very tiny fraction. The vast majority of people and businesses are not commenting in these threads (or at all), and their focus is on their own business and domain problems first of all. Switching their IT stack will only done by force, if the US were to do something really drastic that crashes some targeted countries Microsoft- and Cloud-IT.
> However, the Microsoft stack is sooooo much more. ID management. Device management. Uncountable number of little helpers in form of software and scripts that you cannot port to a Linux based stack without significant effort. Entire mail domains are managed by Office 265 - you own the domain and the DNS records, you get licenses for Office365 from MS, you point the DNS records to Microsoft, you are done.
Is there any bit of this that is not web based or does not support Linux nowadays? Office 365 runs on a browser, and even Intune supports some enterprise oriented distributions, like RH, so device management shouldn't be a problem. But even if none of that was true, there is certainly competition in the IT management space. Defaulting to Microsoft just because of a Windows based fleet doesn't sound like a great idea.
> The truth is, they keep continuously innovating and I can see it, little things just conveniently showing up, like that I now have a Teams button to create an AI script of my conversations, or that if more than one person opens an Office document that is stored in OneDrive we can see each other inside the document, cursor positions, and who has it open.
This is stuff other vendors have been offering for ages now.
The browser versions of the Office apps aren't comparable to the native apps, and also don't support whatever native integrations (like VBA add-ins) companies use.
They may not be, but I can almost guarantee that Microsoft will get rid of them sooner than later.
Trading dependency on a company in Redmond, WA, USA, for one in mountain view, CA, USA does nothing for moving away from USA in the dependency chain, but it proves that it's possible. And I know it's possible as there are several billion-dollar companies in Google Workspace I know of personally. And if it's possible for them, it means it's possible for the EU to get there. The only question is will they ever? Let's form a committee to schedule a meeting to look into that question.
"Possible" is everything that does not violate any laws of the universe, that is not a useful criterion!
Oh and thanks for ignoring everything I wrote I guess. Not that I expected anything different, it is always the same in these threads after all. Why bother with arguments, especially those of the person you respond to?
But you see, this "laziness" actually supports my point. Not even you want to do the hard thing and bother with what somebody else thinks when there is a much easier path. But you expect others to care about the things that you care about, without spending much effort even merely understanding their position.
Go and download the archives of Reddit, there are plenty of torrents out there. Filter to a sub like r/gaming. Relative frequency graph of Linux mentions. You'll see a magnitude increase over the last 12 months compared to years before. It's real.
Must admit, not sure if the data torrents are uptodate now that Reddit anti-scrapes so hard to raise their premium on the exclusive contract to the highest bidder, OpenAI.
Calling 4-5% marketshare microscopic is not fair. I get it if it was still stuck at 1%, but it's growing, and the rate of growth has been increasing too.
Is the desktop/laptop linux market share really over 4%? What is that based on?
At least according to Statcounter, Linux is currently at 3.86% worldwide: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide.
It's slightly larger in the US at 5.28%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st...
In India, where I live, it's surprisingly at 6.51%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/india
Take this with a grain of salt, because numbers from Statcounter are not fully accurate. However, none of those numbers are small. 3.86% of the entire PC market is not something to scoff at.
There's also the people like me that couldn't historically run certain games well directly on Linux, so we have Windows virtual machines with GPU passthrough. Which would read as me being a Windows user in the Steam stats, but a Linux user in other stats.
The state of gaming has improved drastically since I started doing it that way, though, and I'm considering ditching the VM entirely. Multiplayer games seem to be getting the hint about anticheat exclusion on Linux. ARC Raiders, for example, is a competitive game and runs flawlessly directly on Linux.
The high amount of "Unknown" is interesting. Especially as it doubled in the last 6-8 months.
"Unknown" is always mostly some version of Windows that they couldn't classify for one reason or another.
Probably. But part of it might also be something else entirely. I'm not saying it is, but how's anybody to tell? Statcounter is just not a good way to research Linux market share. Unfortunately, what they lack in statistics, they seem to make up for in SEO... everybody's landing there.
Last time I looked on stat counter it showed 4 and something percent. That's where I pulled the number from. But it seems they updated it to 3.86 now. It's so over for the Linux community.
Statcounter isn't just "not fully accurate", it's a hot dump of analytics garbage, at least for this purpose. Take your time to reflect on these diagrams - what's happening there? What's the 55% "unknown", and what does that tell you about the quality of those stats? (I've commented on this problem before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46472324 )
I suggest referring to Cloudflare instead: https://radar.cloudflare.com/explorer?dataSet=http&loc=&dt=5...
They're actually even putting Linux on 5.1% for desktops as of now - strangely, down from 6.5% in June last year.
The Steam survey has it at 3.6%, although that's obviously skewed towards gamers, and counts Steam Decks in addition to desktops.
According to Statcounter, Linux's share is 3.86% and rising; but I'd imagine that quite a bit of the almost 16% 'unknown' is also Linux.
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
Not insignificant at all.
Maybe more interesting is that if you switch to looking at just America Linux jumps to 5.25% (unknown 7.4%) (Similar numbers for all of NA), and for Europe it is 4.32% (9.75% unknown).
Again, not huge numbers but also not insignificant. But they are quickly growing and taking share from Microsoft. If we look back at (Dec) 2021 the numbers are 1.8% and 2.2% respectively. Those gains are meaningful.
You can see that while Windows 10 numbers are going down over the past few months, the Windows 11 numbers aren't making up for it. About 2/3 of that gap are going to Linux with the other third going to Mac. So Mac is getting more market at the expense of Windows as well. There are a significant number of disgruntled Windows users leaving over the past year.
Its not ... The problem is that people do not realize that devices like Steam Deck are also considered Linux desktop devices in those numbers. Chrome tends to also inflate those numbers. Yes, they are Linux desktops but not in the way people are comparing Windows to Linux.
The real number is closer to 2.5% somewhere. What is still growth but nowhere the "year of the Linux desktop".
You tend to see a rather vocal minority that makes you feel like there is some major switch but looking here in the comments, people that switched 8 years, 12 year, 20 years ago are people that are part of the old statistics. There are some new converts but not what you expect to see despite Linux now also being more gaming compatible.
It still has minor issues (beyond anti-cheat), that involve people fixing things, less then the past. But its still not the often click and play, works under every resolution, has no graphic issue etc etc. That is the part people often do not tell you, because a lot of people are more thinkers, so a issue pops up, they fix it and forget about it.
Ironically, MacOS just dominates as the real alternative to Windows in so many aspects. If Apple actually got their act together about gaming, it can trigger a actual strong contender to Windows.
>The problem is that people do not realize that devices like Steam Deck are also considered Linux desktop devices in those numbers.
Are people even browsing on Steam Decks? Because everybody in this thread seems to be referring to stats published by a rather obscure web tracking solutions company. "High-traffic sites using Statcounter include khabarban.com, codelist.cc, and download.it"
Steam Deck is a Linux desktop device. It is literally a thin laptop with a build-in screen and joystick running linux. Does my linux system stop being that when I turn on big picture mode in steam? You can run the steam deck as your daily driver hooked up to a keyboard and a monitor.
The Steam Deck is not a Desktop ... That is like saying that every Android smartphone is a desktop. Sure, you can use it as a desktop but 99.99% of the people are using it as a handheld console.
And nice downvotes... Typical in Linux Desktop topics.
I didn't downvote, but it might have to do with the fact that you appear to be just inventing numbers like 2.5%. If Steam Decks are only used for gaming, why would they make up for 1.38% of the Statcounter numbers?
A growth of 4% over 20 years is not an increasing rate. And yes, 4% marketshare is microscopic. macOS has a bigger share but you wouldn't say macOS is massive. Posts like this are cheerleading OS's because everything needs to be a zero sum competition.
But it's also not not an increasing rate, there's not enough information to know if the rate is increasing or not.
As phones replace desktop computers for non-technical users, leaving a concentration of "skilled" users, my suspicion is that the pattern will resemble the quote "Slowly, then all at once."
Have a look at the Steam Hardware [and software] Survey [0] results. Linux has been trending upwards whist Windows has been trending down for a wee while. And the population this looks at is primarily interested in gaming, which means that this is despite a compatibility layer being needed for a large amount of the software used. I imagine in other communities (software, old people) it's trending much faster.
E.g. I recently installed Linux Mint for my grandma so she could use email and an up-to-date web browser on her old laptop that can't run (secure) Windows anymore. The UI differences are marginal for her, and she can do everything she needs to much better than she could before (which was not at all).
[0]: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
I mean, this is literally false? Desktop Linux userbase is growing, it's bigger than it has ever been even without including ChromeOS, and more OEMs are shipping devices with desktop linux than ever before (Valve's suite of devices, multiple laptop vendors including major ones like Lenovo, a few SteamDeck competitors)
More and more desktop apps are just becoming websites. More and more desktop apps are using Electron rather than some native app. Windows is slowly becoming a dumpster fire in terms of usability and issues. Most games these days Just Work on Linux without any tinkering.
While I hardly think that this year will be "the year of the Linux desktop" or whatever, but if these trends keep going, I really foresee Linux market share growing, slowly, each year, until it's not so microscopic anymore.
I mean - steam deck was a pretty significant inflection point quite recently. Making gaming viable on linux via a popular consumer product is a huge deal and starts to kill one of desktop linux's single biggest barriers to adoption.
According to the Steam Hardware Survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...) only ~3.6% Steam users use Linux and these statistics include the Steam Deck users. SteamOS accounts for ~26% of Linux users, which in turn brings down the count to ~2.6%. For comparision, MacOS is ~2.1% of the market share at the moment. Wake me up when Linux gets to 10%.
My story is simpler. Microsoft dropped the support for Windows 10 and gave me no upgrade path to Windows 11 because my CPU was 5 years too old apparently.
So I installed Fedora on that machine, I learned the process, I went through the hurdles. It wasn’t seamless. But, Fedora never said “I can’t”. When it was over, it was fine.
Only if Microsoft had just let me install Windows 11 and suffer whatever the perf problem my CPU would bring. Then I could consider a hardware upgrade then, maybe.
But, “you can’t install unless you upgrade your CPU” forced me to adopt Linux. More importantly, it gave me a story to tell.
There is a marketing lesson there somewhere, like Torvalds’ famous “you don’t break userspace”, something along the lines of “you don’t break the upgrade path”.
I'm in the exact same boat. I was a little unhappy with the ads etc in Windows, but perfectly willing to give Windows 11 a try. But Microsoft decreed that my admittedly a bit old but perfectly workable CPU was incompatible, due to not having a feature I wasn't interested in. I'd need to replace most of my existing hardware to switch. So why not try Linux? It certainly seems reasonable when Windows apparently needs more command-line hackery to maybe work for a while than Linux.
So to Fedora I went! So far, I've been pleasantly surprised. All of the software I want to use installed easily and works, via Flatpak. All of my hardware works fine, and there are actually fewer weird hardware quirks than under Windows. I also appreciate that there are options to turn off behaviors I found annoying in Windows.
It's a bit sad to have to switch due to Microsoft trashing their own OS rather than Linux becoming superlatively awesome, but what can you do.
Linux is superlatively awesome
and I say that as a FreeBSD user.
And I say it as a Linux user. My story is breathing life into old hardware back in the 2010s without having to spend any money, and just enjoying the No Man's Sky style freedom of exploring a whole new world of how a desktop operating system could look in feel and work, unmoored from the background sickness of thinking everything I do is channeled into Microsoft telemetry.
If you're the type of person who's capable of falling in love with software and software ecosystems, there's nothing like a first jump into Linux and understanding it as a world ready and waiting for you.
FreeBSD user here too <3 Mainly because I think Linux is way too aligned (and developed by) big tech these days.
We have Netflix and Sun influence but the former is not really putting its stamp on it and the latter no longer exists (and evil Oracle has zero interest of course)
I prefer the OS aligned with users like me not the big cloud boys.
I would love to try FreeBSD but I'm too addicted to NixOS... If there was a way to have a NixOS-like declarative BSD system I'd give it a serious try.
FreeBSD is kinda declarative. A lot of it is (or can be) configured in a text file called rc.conf
https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?rc.conf
It's not as completely declarative as Nix but it was never intended to be.
More like 3 files.
- /boot/loader.conf for kernel settings to be set only at boot
- /etc/sysctl.conf for kernel settings to be set anytime
- /etc/rc.conf for rest of configuration
What about declarative listing of installed packages? One of the neat things about NixOS is that I know exactly what packages I've manually installed since they're specified in my config file.
The other big difference I notice between NixOS and e.g. Debian is that on NixOS I only have to specify the changes from the defaults. On e.g. Debian I usually have to change config files that already exist. Then when the package updates its default config I end up having to review all the changes to the config, even when they have nothing to do with what I've explicitly configured.
You should really give it a try.
https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?rc.conf
I don’t know how it compares to NixOS, but it is trivial to configure your own installer.
I'm in a similar but more ridiculous reason. My reasonably modern hardware should support windows 11, but I get "disk not supported" because apparently I once picked the "wrong" bootloader?
I can't be arsed, if I'm going to have to fiddle around getting that working I might as well move to linux.
Iike that you both started with Fedora. Same for me but almost 20 yrs ago
Haven't touched it in a long time ever since debian8 was the point in time where it was fine to run on desktop and laptop for me, not only on server. Ever since then I have it on all my 20something machines
I know you've already switched but bid you try using FlyOOBE to bypass it?
https://github.com/builtbybel/FlyOOBE/
Prior to a lot of apps transitioning to be web apps, this would be more important, but there’s less value now that almost everything is non-native. Even MS Office is online now
You can bypass the warning really easily, I googled it the moment I saw it and it was very easy. A keyboard shortcut to open the command window during the install and one cheeky command. I agree though that it’s silly they don’t offer it officially.
But I get the feeling you were on the edge of transitioning anyway, which is fine! Sounds more like the straw that broke the camels back.
If you bypass the installer minimum hardware checks then you're making a gamble that the official statement from Microsoft won't affect you:
> If Windows 11 is installed on ineligible hardware, your device won't receive support from Microsoft, and you should be comfortable assuming the risk of running into compatibility issues.
> Devices that don't meet these system requirements might malfunction due to compatibility or other issues. Additionally, these devices aren't guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates.
Aren't you guys actually talking about a TPM 2.0 device being present on the machine and not a CPU specifically? Cause the whole Windows 11 thing was (I thought) full disk encryption with TPM 2.0 attestation booted from a secure boot BIOS. That basically just means you can't take the disk and boot it on another machine. There would be no way to decrypt.
Windows 11 officially requires TPM 2.0, secure-boot enabled, and an AMD Zen+ (Ryzen 2xxx) or later or an Intel Core Gen 8 or later.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/10/windows-11-the-ars-t...
> ... the best rationale for the processor requirement is that these chips (mostly) support something called “mode-based execution control,” or MBEC. MBEC provides hardware acceleration for an optional memory integrity feature in Windows (also known as hypervisor-protected code integrity, or HVCI) that can be enabled on any Windows 10 or Windows 11 PC but can come with hefty performance penalties for older processors without MBEC support.
> Another theory: older processors are more likely to be running in old systems that haven’t had their firmware updated to mitigate major hardware-level vulnerabilities that have been discovered in the last few years, like Spectre and Meltdown
You can use a TPM for disk encryption with Linux if you want. You also get to use your own secureboot keys if you want. Your choice.
I can't be bothered. My 80386 worked fine without any of the above and I still don't need any of it on a Zen%d (except Linux)
Yea I was looking at this for work. We require full disk encryption for all operating systems but linux is the one where it's a passphrase or a yubikey. In my personal life it would just make managing my PC more annoying. Imagine a motherboard failure and boom there goes my entire disk.
You can have automatic unlock with tpm2, with or without a pin, in addition to passphrase, file, fido2, pkcs#11 cert, or whatever else is supported by luks.
I've been using this for a few years now, and never had an issue.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd-cryptenroll
> Imagine a motherboard failure and boom there goes my entire disk.
You can also set a long-ass key in addition to the other methods, and back it up somewhere safe. It works the same as bitlocker: you have key which can decrypt the drive without external help from a TPM in case something goes wrong.
Yubikeys are very useful. I was pointed to them by a colleague and was a bit skeptical in the beginning but since then I am more than happy to use them, absolutely flawless execution. The only thing that I am a bit concerned about is that it isn't the key that I place on the device that governs all this so you can't be 100% sure that there isn't some kind of supply chain trick that would allow the manufacturer or one or more of their employees to create duplicate keys.
With Linux I think you do have the option of encrypting with your own cert using the PCKS#11 module on the Yubikey.
That's interesting, thank you, I will definitely look into this.
> Imagine a motherboard failure
Hold up, I'm no expert on Secure Boot, but LUKS allows you to have multiple entry keys to the same drive.
This means you can have one key of random gobbledegook which is kept and auto-used by the magic motherboard, and also a passphrase that you can memorize or write down, and either one is totally sufficient on its own.
You don't even need to set them up at the same time, you can start with one and then add the other as an option later.
Secureboot is something else. It verifies the boot loader at the BIOS. This can be broken by the system itself (like if it's hacked). So it's protecting you against modifications to the boot loader. This is where kernel modules can be injected.
TPM 2.0 is something else. It's typically soldered onto the motherboard as a physical device and the key can be generated and then used to encrypt the disk. The private key can not be extracted. Only the signature and you can ask the TPM to sign a binary blob with the private key while providing you the public key to verify. This protects you against physical access to your device. No one can take your disk and decrypt it.
> the key can be generated and then used to encrypt the disk
Right, you can't recover or copy that specific key, but you also don't have to for accessing your data, if you set up some redundancy before disaster struck.
AFAIK: 99% of your storage is encrypted by a giant fixed unchanging master-key, and that is itself encrypted again with a non-master key/LS or passphrase, which is stored in the remaining "LUKS header". There's room to store multiple copies of the same master-key encrypted with different non-master options.
In that model, the TPM is simply providing (in a convoluted way) its own passphrase for one of those co-equal slots, so having one or more alternates prepared is sufficient to protect your drive from motherboard failure.
I have a few machines which lack a supported CPU. There's CPU's only 6 years old which aren't supported. There may be some newer ones even (I didn't bother to look).
If it was 2000 - it'd be like, "OK boss, you gotta upgrade that old dog of a CPU", but software bloat really hasn't kept up with CPU performance. I've got an i3 which is serviceable enough from 2014. Is it going to be able to keep up with modern SQL Server and Teams and VSCode and all that? Probably not all at once. But totally fine for basic computing.
For some reason that risk never seemed larger than the one that Microsoft would force me into subscribing to more services because they hold my data hostage or that they would be more than happy to pass the keys to my machine to the USG.
There’s no functional gamble. It’s worked fine and it will continue to work fine. Everyone is seriously overreacting, they’re just scare tactic words.
Windows 11 24H2 added a dependency on the POPCNT instruction, causing CPUs that don't have it - which were otherwise fine, to fail to even boot Windows.
What will be the next instruction/ISA extension that is only supported since Intel 11th Gen that there will be a hard dependency on? Any bets?
And they fixed it. A bug like that is a seperate category of problem entirely.
But if your next move is to go to Linux where all that applies as well, why would that stop you?
You are correct that a Linux installation is ineligible for support from Microsoft. Not that that means anything for private usage.
Also, Linux has a great track record for not dropping support for older hardware. I think that is a lot more informative than whatever statement Microsoft's legal team has managed to come up with.
There's a ton of outdated guides out there because Microsoft has been patching out workaround after workaround. It's likely that the simple solution you used doesn't work anymore.
There's a little bit of considering it already yeah. Plus what the sibling comments say of it being clearly against what Microsoft wants, so no guarantee they won't disable it or make it even harder in the future. And also, the factor of, doing any of these check-disabling hacks also seems to require a full OS reinstall instead of an in-place update. If I need to do a full reinstall anyways, why not do it with an OS I don't need to hack up to get it to install on a system the OS maintainer doesn't want it to be installed on.
Apparently, fundamentally, Microsoft does not want me as a user. Hacking around their checks won't change that. I'd rather comply with their wishes and use an OS that actually wants me as a user.
I have two laptops that - even being 8 years and 4 years old fit the specs MS decided to set.
I still kicked itin the can. Am a happy Arch User & Ubuntu (will probably migrate that one to an Arch derivate as well, though) nowadays. I still use WIN11 in my day job. And it is an okay OS. I had worse. I had better.
What I find interesting is, that I gained on average 30 - 50% more battery time from the laptops I switched to Linux. It is quite unexpected and to me quite frankly amazing. I am writing this on my day job quite expensive Surface machine. I pulled it from the power connection to sit on the sofa about 20 minutes ago. My battery? At 73%. And I am running Firefox and PowerPoint at the moment (plus whatever corp crapware is installed underneath).
Except for exactly one set of tools (older Affinity progs) I have no need for WIN anymore. And as my day job provides a WIN machine...
My daily driver is a second hand W540 that was made in 2014 or so. It's got the maximum RAM that it will take (32G), and a larger HD, other than that it's just the same old box. It's indestructible and rock solid, drives three monitors and I couldn't be happier with it.
I can confirm this.
Honestly, I am really surprised this is a top comment here. This was an extremely easy work around. We are all mostly curious nerds here.
All this work because one couldn't google a easy work around?
Last time I tried Linux it sucked for gaming and I've spent hours trying to install a printer.
Not to excuse Microsoft in this situation, Linux is obviously more open.
I can't speak to gaming but i was warned about printer issues as well. However after a hasty switch from win10 to xubuntu to save my phd work i was able to get the office printer working on ubuntu that i could never print to on windows. Sure, i installed a driver but the dialogue literally directed me to do so. My jaw hit the floor when the test page came out flawless.
Yah, I feel like Linux was way worse with printers in the past.. now the story is more like: you'll have a different set of printer issues across the major OSes but no OS is clearly better or worse.
When was the last time you tried any of that on linux? Printers have been plug and play(which is impressive considering the hoops I had to jump through on windows) and with advent of proton, there's been no game I've played that's had any issues
It has been a few years to be fair. However, back when I ran into the issue people said the same thing.
I might try it on one of my older laptops which are in the closet.
An anecdote about printers: I was just trying out Linux Mint from a live USB when out of nowhere appeared a popup that a Brother printer was ready for use. Turned out my significant other had switched on the WiFi printer in the other room. I really had to laugh out loud about how unexpectedly easy that was.
Linux has been good for gaming for years now. I think I switched 4 or 5 years ago, and in all that time I've almost never had problems running games.
Steam now supports 1 click install of its entire library windows and Linux native and the majority work. The majority of printers either work or do not. It's not a reasonable expectation that all hardware will work but you won't need hours of work either.
MS is free to deprecate your work around any given Tuesday when you have work to do leaving you in the same spot with less time available to do anything about it.
You are wrongly assessing the value of the alternatives to boot if you think they were just too stupid to google. Based on the article they already viewed Windows negatively prior to this and thus already had a motivation to switch.
Which still leaves you in a state that at any time your OS stops updating because they decide to close the "loophole" or remove the "feature"
Apple does this all the time, though, and seems to get a free pass here. I have four Macs in my home, and they are cut off at Ventura (for the 2017 iMac), Monterey (for the 2014 Mac Mini and the 2015 MacBook Air), and El Capitan (for the 2014 iMac). They are all stuck at 3, 4, and 5 major OS versions back. Nobody really seems to complain about this, though.
I don't think it's the same. On older Apple hardware, it just keeps on running on the older OS version. You don't get some new features or styling of the new OS, but nothing else changes. On Windows, it periodically brings up full-screen notifications that your hardware is obsolete and you need to upgrade, with the only options being to upgrade or "remind me again later".
They also provide security updates for those old OSes for quite a while, AFAIK.
Some security updates.
Note: Because of dependency on architecture and system changes to any current version of Apple operating systems (for example, macOS 26, iOS 26 and so on), not all known security issues are addressed in previous versions (for example, macOS 15, iOS 18 and so on).
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/deployment/depc4c80847...
macOS receives 1 year of full support and 2 additional years for security updates for each version with 6-8 years of upgrade eligibility. Windows 10 received 10 years of support (on top of a free upgrade from Windows 7/8.1 for most users).
I'm not sure why you're counting the years of support for a version of the OS and not the years of support for a computer. The interesting thing is: if you bought a computer at year X, does it still receive updates at X+Y?
There's loads of relatively young computers which can't upgrade to Windows 11 and therefore aren't supported anymore. That's the problem, not how long Windows 10 was supported.
Apple did the same thing when they dropped x86 support.
That's great, but it's no silver bullet. We have a 4th Gen iPad that was used mostly for consumption. Only one of the streaming apps works with its ios version.
The same issues plague old Android tablets. Lots of unecessary ewaste out there so OEM's can sell new devices.
There are a lot of Android devices that look temping until one discovers how out-of-date the firmware is.
With no option to install your own, of course. Boot loaders should be exclusively for running the manufacturer's lone security update from 5 years ago.
I just installed Opencore and run the newer OSs anyway. It will eventually not be an option when they come up with an ARM-only OS, but at the moment it seems to work ok.
2013 MacBook Air on Linux Mint is fantastic
Software in much more tied to the OS though. For example, Chrome is still compatible with Windows 10 which is more than 10 years old, while on macOS you cannot install it past Monterey (2021). Not to mention that also system applications are updated with the OS, so forget about using Safari
They don't get a free pass, I think people have spoken with their wallets and it shows with the user base counts: Windows 66–73%, macOS 14–16%, Linux 3–4%.
Apple seems to support their previous generation OS on older macs for ~8-9 years or so from what I've seen. You just don't get the latest generation features, they cut it off and move on similar to how Microsoft did.
Because Apple been continuously doing deprecating hardware regularly since the mid 90s. And they’ll processor architecture every 10-15 years.
Microsoft was the backward compatibility king.
Though it's kinda funny that Wine can run Windows applications that Windows can't.
Windows doesn't support 16bit apps anymore, but Wine (at least Wine <9.0) still does.
Apple only gets a free pass from folks who are invested in that particular kind of ... relationship.
I think Apple gets a pass because they're a luxury product. For the record, even though Apple has some really impressive hardware, this is one of the reasons I'm not very big on Apple. People praise their phone's longevity all the time, but I think this is crazy. I could be running a 13 year old computer right now and it would work fine if I had Linux. Smartphones don't really have options for this due to the market capture. Apple's PC could be supported longer, but Apple isn't interested in doing it. (and apparently they change architectures every 15 years anyhow.)
> I think Apple gets a pass because they're a luxury product.
No they aren't. They've just convinced everyone that they are.
I've seen people meme about Android being for people who couldn't afford an iPhone when the fact is that a flagship Android costs just as much as an iPhone.
I tried a "flagship Android" phone once (the top of the line Samsung), it was bugging the second I opened the pack. I returned it and got a cheap Pixel budget line phone. Then a few years later I jumped ship to iPhone, and largely am very happy now. Nothing is perfect, but for me, iPhone is the best I've tried.
> No they aren't. They've just convinced everyone that they are.
What’s the difference?
Either way, Apple consistently makes decisions that I think put them on the side of “luxury item” — even if I often disagree with those decisions.
That's the contemporary luxury market for nearly all goods; signifiers that tell folks "this item is more valuable because it has the magic sigil" or whatever.
That is the reality of pretty much every "luxury product/brand"...
It is convincing people to pay a premium for what is still at the end of the day a stitched leather bag, watch, computer or smartphone made in factories like everything else.
People pay for names, to project their luxury lifestyle.
It is very rare that the actual quality/performance of a "luxury item" is dramatically above a high-quality equivalent. Does a Rolex tell time and look better than a Breitling? Or a Tag Heur? Or a Seiko? Each of those represents a different price/style point - and ultimately it is subjective to a consumer - who wants to project a certain style/look.
Or several times more, in some cases
I ran iPhone 6 and 8 well beyond their years. I only replaced because the batteries were already replaced once. But otherwise the phone was fine. I have had same issues with laptops
I used to install linux on older mac hardware and donate it. I don't think that works anymore with with the M chips (at least in the same easy way)
You can install Asahi Linux on some of the M chips. But you are right, it's not as easy as it used to be.
because desktop Apple users have been domesticated for decades now and just accept whatever shows up in the feeding trough.
I would say its part of the promise/agreement of buying into the ecosystem, and a known caveat. Might be overly optimistic viewpoint.
They didn’t get a pass from me. My MacPro has been running Linux longer than it ran MacOS. Apple stopped supporting it officially at Mojave but I jumped ship earlier when I was forced to do a clean install rather than an upgrade because I had a RAID.
idk what other people give passes to, but I had been a Linux desktop user since the mid 90s and Mac laptop user since ~G3 iBook years and I finally gave up on their laptops a few years ago; so it's mainly linux-linux now
i think the last straw was the added telemetry that required so much effort to get rid of, but also for years they have made clear moves to make their laptops iOS-like progressively, which I cannot stand on so many levels
Apple will provide software and hardware support for any given product for at least 5 years. After those 5 years, you sometimes will still get security fixes.
The reason for this is that newer software will start using hardware features and capabilities that only exist on newer hardware, not because Tim Cook is evilly cackling in his office "hahhahha! Let's force people to buy new Macs!!!"
Erm, isn't the last bit a key part of Tim Cooks job (getting people to buy new apple stuff even if they don't really need it)?
Apple's hardware products generally sell themselves.
If only there was a way to write software that uses the new hardware features if they're available but falls back to a legacy path, if the hardware features were not available.
That introduces complexity to the codebase.
[dead]
It's a really bad time for Microsoft to force consumers to upgrade - even computer parts from 5 years ago are price hiking.
Which Microsoft really should have been able to see coming, since it’s largely their money that’s being used to soak up all the supply of computing hardware.
Someone inside Microsoft probably did see it coming. That comic of their org chart being individual bubbles, all pointing guns at each other really does explain that company's behavior.
Microsoft doesn't seem to be one unified entity, but a bunch of smaller competing companies under the same umbrella, each trying to destroy the other.
Allegedly Sony saw the writing on the wall and secured a good amount of GDDR supply for their consoles. Microsoft did not, and has had to raise the price of the Xbox Series X as a result.
I don't think that Microsoft knows what Microsoft is doing.
[dead]
Yep. Similar thing forced me off of Apple. They stopped making 17 inch laptops. They started soldering parts into place. Made it so you couldn’t open your own laptop to replace the HD.
Switched to Linux 8 years ago and haven't looked back.
I have a similar issue with Windows. The machine already dual-boots Linux, but it is simultaneously demanding Windows 11 and telling me that it doesn't support it. It's a three year old Ryzen, it plays every game I've thrown at it flawlessly - which admittedly is only just so many things, but if it could manage Oblivion Remastered at launch it should manage a bloody operating system surely.
I hear it might be some TPM thing. If so, it still seems like a bad decision to require this thing, and it's telling that I'm working on speculation here - it doesn't _tell_ me that's what it is.
I had an issue with TPM too, enabling PTT (Intel's on-chip TPM) on BIOS fixed that one.
Something is disabled in your BIOS. Ask an LLM to guide you.
I can solve this problem if I have to. Right now, I don't.
But I think you miss my core point. If "Ask an LLM" is the answer to this, Microsoft are doing an unforgivably shit job of maintaining Windows. Why on earth should that be necessary? Surely they can provide the minimum of information about why they think the upgrade isn't possible.
Microsoft asking to upgrade hardware reminds me of that old joke (from memory so excuse the bad story telling)
User: hello, my PC smokes and I would like to purchase an anti smoke software
Computer service: sorry it's not possible, you have to replace the hardware
User: no I really want an anti smoke software
(Later)
User: hello I would like to purchase a new computer
Service: see, I told you that an anti smoke software is not possible
User: wrong! I have purchased one from Microsoft. But apparently it's not compatible with my current hardware
Yeah, until microsoft says "Sup there lil buddy? Running an unsupported system? Oof. The next update is gonna really turn it inside-out"
This is exactly my experience - I have a Lenovo W530 from 2013, it has an i7, 32gb RAM and SSDs (RAID0 for performance, backups are off-device) - and it is STILL lightning fast.
However - EVERY single trick I have tried... the above command, LTSC, Enterprise edition, etc, results in a situation where after installation a few days (or hours) and some updates get installed, and... blue-screen-of-death on every boot.
Gave up, installed Linux - still working through some issues (GPU driver compatibility), but overall it is a much better experience...
I think at a certain point you need to just call it quits with that sort of bullshit. I have my dignity. I'm a fucking grown adult. I'm not going to spend my spare time haplessly looking online to unfuck the new current set of fuckery. Just take the fucking bullet. Learn linux. Congrats you're playing whack-a-mole with a trillion dollar corporation and prolonging your misery. This is stupid.
Yeah, microsoft will never change otherwise. People and companies continue to willingly allow themselves to get abused, and then wonder why Microsoft never changes and continues to abuse them.
So long as said abuse never results in a loss of marketshare and revenue, it will continue. Why would they stop if there's no negative repercussions?
Take backups and disable the updates with group policy. OP just wanted to install Windows 11.
Just stay at windows 10 at this point. The whole point of upgrading to 11 is to not stay on an unsupported OS
Seriously, if people are willing to learn all this, they can easily learn Linux and simply tell the corporate overlords to fuck right off.
Well that's never happened before (with Windows anyway), so it's not likely to happen now.
It's happened at least three times:
Win8.1 x64 required double-width compare and exchange instruction support, so people who bought Win8 for a CPU or motherboard that didn't support it had to downgrade to the 32-bit version or lose support in 2016.
Win7 updates from 2018 onwards required SSE2 with no warning.
Win11 24H2 and later won't install on x86 processors that don't support the x86-64-v2 baseline.
Has happened:
Core2Duo, Opteron64 and Athlon64 can run W11 RTM
They will bluescreen booting after an update to 24H2 because they are missing the POPCNT instruction.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/windows-11-24h2-goes...
Athlon 64 is a 20 yo CPU. At some point...
Hey, my X200 has a Core2Duo and still does everything I need.
(No, I don't need gaming or LLMs.)
From my experience it seems to happen all the time. Settings reset, uninstalled apps reinstalled, firewall settings erased. I went looking for the Windows 10 patch that deleted the Documents folder if you had remapped it to another drive, and it was hard to find an article due to all the other times their updates have also deleted people's Documents folder. This was the first time I recall it happening: https://www.engadget.com/2018-10-09-windows-10-october-updat...
Where can one read the source code of setup.exe
That's, e.g., how I would determine what these commands do
I have had HN replies in the past that argued Windows is open source and thus comparable to UNIX-like OS projects where _the public_ can read the source code and make modifications, _for free_
Absent the source code, we can read Microsoft's documentation
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufactu...
It seems like WinPE is the most useful version of Windows, e.g., it allows more options to setup.exe
How does one quickly and easily download and install a copy of WinPE, preferably on removable media
The windows assessment and deployment kit is what you need, with the windows pe add-on: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufactu...
You should be aware there's a 3 day limit to uptime, then PE reboots. You can work around that: https://lsoft.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011128377-I-n...
The other thing to tell you is that this is not a live version of windows with all the features of the full desktop. It is the windows that runs the windows installer application, so enough windows to do that and no more.
I would personally recommend linux instead.
Who would argue that Windows is open source? That's hilarious.
What's this?
Whenever I see an unexplained command I don't understand from a random internet forum, I hop onto the production server and run it, just in case it might boost performance. Wouldn't want to miss out on that.
Been doing it since I was 12. It taught me all about the ins and outs of `rm`.
Sounds like me back in the early 80s when I used to war dial, and people used to share "active" prefixes. I learned all about the 911 prefix when I set my dialer and went to sleep. About 20 minutes later the cops were banging on my front door. True story; I was in 6th grade, got arrested for it.
wow did you get a record? this is some Hackers(1995) vibe stuff
I got taken to juvenile hall, put in a holding area with kids that had stolen cars and stabbed other kids in fights. The funny thing is all these "bad kids" were really cool; we talked about video games (Donkey Kong!). I remember one kid got into a fight with his football coach and broke both the coach's legs. He was a big kid, looked like a grown man. He was pretty much in charge of the holding area. But he was cool as hell, cracked jokes with me. I actually kinda enjoyed the holding area.
Anyway, the officials thought I had just called 911 over and over, like to play a prank. They wouldn't hear anything about my computer or whatever (it was the early 80s). They were pissed. I was kept in the holding area for a few hours, then they let me go home. I was ordered to a bunch of community service, cleaning the parking lots of local parks, stuff like that.
Reminds me of that story from an IRC channel:
A: I have a program that will format your hard drive. I just need your IP.
B: Ok, it's 127.0.0.1
A: Ahahaha, it 56% now! Lol.
A left the chat. Connection reset by peer.
A work-around to install on unsupported hardware which both works, but is unsupported and could break during a feature Windows Update.
At this point I'd say it's more of a "would" than a "could"
A clever way to maximize the chances that your computer gets bricked on a future Patch Tuesday.
It’s really not
Some of the checks are around CPU features that they don’t currently use but may use in the future. And CPUs don’t typically respond super gracefully to being asked to execute instructions they don’t understand.
I’ll bet you $100 my supposedly unsupported cpu is never kicked off of windows 11. There’s just no chance.
LoL with the insane backslash crap
One backslash really gets you going huh?
I've been using Linux for 20+ years, but I was fairly happy with Windows 11. At its core it did exactly what I needed it to do, and it allowed me to run some commercial software that is harder to install and run on Linux (Davinci Resolve).
But my Dell hardware drivers were flaky in Windows. My bluetooth had extremely variable availability. And then Windows rebooted itself, against my wishes, 3x in one week. And then there was the promise of Recall.
That's when I wiped Windows and installed Ubuntu. All my hardware issues went away (yes, I had to fiddle the sound driver a little so it didn't crack when it woke up from sleep, and I had to make one small change so suspend worked properly.. but both were easily solvable). My bluetooth has been flawless since and I was able to use my Logitech wireless mouse again.
I'm never going back.
I do a bit of napkin math on Apple Silicon single-threaded performance, GPU performance, and battery management against non-Macbook Air/Pro specs for same price. I follow DHH (who I otherwise object to) on his adventures with the Asus G14 machines.. but I'm not sure its GPU performance still matches the similarly priced Apple offering.
Less integrated OS, worse battery management, and weaker performance for more money? I'm not sure. But I'll probably still go that way.
The Intel/AMD laptop manufacturers need to get out from under Nvidia's hardware GPU thumb.
I get the intent, but moving to linux for better bluetooth support is... an interesting take
BT can be a shitshow on any OS. Some combinations work flawlessly, some don't. It's not even the OS' fault IMHO, but the device manufacturers'. My Bose headphones have the same problems under both Windows 10 and Linux.
How so? Bluetooth has been working out of the box (no tinkering) for me under Linux for the past ten years now across multiple devices. Including stuff like APT-X and LDAC. All with proper OS integration (I use Gnome). What's the story on Windows?
Same here. The story for windows, IME, is that my work Logitech BT keyboard works fine, but neither my sony nor shure headphones work at all. Windows says connected, but then disconnects right away. On the same PC which dual-boots linux, they both work fine, with LDAC for the sony and apt-x hd for the shure.
At work, we have BT Jabra headsets. I specifically asked for a corded version, I hate the latency for calls. My windows-using colleagues, for some reason, love wearing a wireless headset and talking through the laptop microphone.
Well I won't be buying Dell again.
Say what you will about Macs, I ain't no fanboy, but from this side of the fence, I had forgotten that drivers were a thing.
Agreed. Given my expectation of travel, it's probably the sanest choice. Esp with the Stores for service.
My story is even simpler. I have a friend who wanted to upgrade to Windows 11 because 10 is losing support. I wrote the Windows 11 installer to my flash drive using Rufus. It worked perfectly. I'm not expecting a man who has no interest in learning Linux to change.
Why did you want to install windows 11 anyways? I also have a PC stuck on Windows 10 and it makes me happy that it's now stable and not part of the forced rolling releases in Win11. Im going to run it on Win10 as long as I can.
Lack of security updates is a problem for a computer that's connected to internet.
I am in the same boat. Running Windows 10 on a Ryzen 5 until the cows come home. I run Rocky Linux in my laptop but I am a gamer so I'll hold to Windows 10. Some Linux Distros are bringing AI. Not ready for that.
> “you can’t install unless you upgrade your CPU”
To be fair, I recently had to switch distros for my little Atom-based server because of a similar deal:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:X86-64-Architecture-Levels#...
Granted, I only had to convert to Tumbleweed (not trivial, but easier than reinstalling), and the open source nature means there will always be lots of other alternatives, too.
How old is the Atom? My CPU was about 10 years old at the time.
I bought it in late 2013, so 12 years from purchase.
Intel lists the launch date of the CPU (Atom D2500) as Q3'11, making it 14 years old when OpenSUSE Leap 16 was released.
It looks like Intel was releasing Atom CPUs without SSE4.1/4.2 up until 2013, e.g. Atom Z2420.
I'm sure there's a million reasons not to, but they could even just open-source Windows 10. Leave you alone with the hardware that you rightfully purchased, and let the community police the security gaps that arise. It's beyond me how planned obsolescence especially on perfectly sufficient hardware is even legal.
That’s not what open source means / how it works.
It's likely a large percentage of that code is also used in win 10 - it’s not like 11 was a complete rewrite.
This was very useful for me. Force install Windows 11: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45853012
You can bypass the warning really easily, I googled it the moment I saw it and it was very easy. A keyboard shortcut to open the command window during the install and one cheeky command.
A future update may restrict access to your windows or break its ability to get further updates. It’s a matter of time. They just haven’t gotten around to it.
And if you’re thinking you’ll just Google another solution then you might as well spend that time googling efforts for Linux. Windows shouldn’t require constant hacking or tinkering to function.
There is no chance they break it. That’s just scaremongering. This also isn’t “constant hacking” it’s bypassing one warning during setup and that’s it.
Microsoft is removing these bypasses over time though.
> because my CPU was 5 years too old apparently.
And yet Nadella writes this:
"For AI to have societal permission it must have real world eval impact. The choices we make about where we apply our scarce energy, compute, and talent resources will matter."
Apparently resources are only "scarce" when Microsoft needs them. When it comes to your consumer outcomes you have to throw away working equipment and buy new.
is there a good windows rdp client for Linux? I went looking for one a few months back but didn't find anything definitely
I use remmina, which uses xfreerdp under the hood. It works well, but I haven't managed to get smartcard authentication working, if that matters for your environment.
>no upgrade path to Windows 11 because my CPU was 5 years too old apparently.
Let's be real. It's because new systems support DRM and Microsoft has been captured by the media company lobby.
We had that announcement of a new "Verifiable" Linux project from Pottering, other kernel devs, and a bunch of ex-microsoft employees yesterday. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
Yeah I caught a lot of downvotes for coming out early against it.
How dare you think for yourself in 2026!
Remote Attestation of Immutable Operating Systems built on systemd
Its the "remote" thing that has no place in personal computing, or rather, computing that is to extend one's own autonomy, or agency. Its no one's damn business whether my system is attested or not! I mean, sure theres certainly benefits for me knowing if its attested, but the other road is one of ruin, and will basically be the chains of the future.
If you're trying to remotely attest immutable OSs you are definitely not a home user, or if you are, you're definitely very keen at least and likely a raging self-masochist.
If you're NOT trying to remotely attest anything, you're fine. Just use your chosen OS, dawg.
Remote attestation is just generating a random blob on the remote side and then making the tpm 2.0 module on a computer sign the blob with a private key. You then provide the signature and the public key to the remote for verification. That enrolls that device. After that you can "verify" with a new binary blob and validate a new signature came back with the same key. That full loop is remote attestation. The idea is your disk didn't get moved to another computer. It's a security thing that Linux does need and is capable of being fully open source.
It has nothing to do with drm.
It has everything to do with DRM. It’s not “dual use” technology. It has one use, and this is it.
We're gonna be using this to validate someone didn't move your login to another device. Which will protect you from session hijacking. Your work stuff will start requiring it. Your media accounts will too. Or else linux will simply be locked out from major services. DRM is already in your browser. And literally has no connection to identity attestation.
Who is “we”? So we can know who to avoid.
All corporate SSO providers.
It’s way worse than that. It’s for verified identity and attestation.
Of course it is, there's no real requirement to have a TPM, plenty of people made a version with that requirement patched out and the system works fine.
If they didn't, people might start capturing copyrighted streaming content and sharing torrents of it. We cannot allow that to happen.
The scary part of HN these days is that I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic
> There is a marketing lesson there somewhere. Microsoft once had the IT world at its feet, because not only was its Windows 9x OSes ubiquitous everywhere, but it had many millions of programmers who had become experts at Visual Basic and Visual C++, so almost all corporates used programs written in these easy to learn, not too difficult to master, fun to program in (yay for Intellisense and Drag-n-drop ActiveX controls), and versatile despite some limitations. This was also the era where many corporates had complicated databases set up in MS Access or MS SQL Server, because they were easily accessible and usable from front-end applications written in VC or VC++.
Microsoft even evolved it all to adapt to and compete with new ideas from rivals, such as COM+ as alternative to CORBA, ASP.Net as alternative to JSP, etc.
Then Microsoft did the unthinkable. It inexplicably threw away all these IT dependencies away, that it had spent decades to build across the worlr.
Microsoft unleashed .Net on an unsuspecting IT world.
And M$ arrogantly expected the world to also throw all their years of efforts of building applications and databases revolving around VB/VC++.
To save their careers, millions of VB/VC++ programmers tried hard to scramble and learn these new technologies, but Microsoft just kept updating and upgrading the .Net landscape with increasing frequency and leading to more chaos and confusions. And as the learning curve steeper and the .Net scope became too hard for sane people to master in a short time, it became apparent that to the entire IT world (except Microsoft) that it had become too difficult and cumbersome to build applications for corporations using Microsoft's new-age tools. Thus, the interest and ambitions of the programmers and corporations quickly waned towards Microsoft tools, especially when they realised that .Net was a mess for installations, and it called expensive licenses to build and ship.
So programmers and SOHO/medium-scale companies, pivoted to alternatives to Microsoft imposed nightmares. Python, PHP, MySQL, Linux, Perl, Ruby, JavaScript, JSP, etc. took centre stage, even as the IT world moved away from .Net.
The worldwide chaos caused by Windows Vista and Windows 8, did nothing to improve upon IT people's disdain for all things Microsoft.
And Microsoft's rivals pounced at such golden opportunities, and they slowly ate away at Microsoft's dominance in corporate world.
Yes, there is indeed some lessons for Micro$oft to be learnt from these debacles.
"Hubris calls for nemesis, and in one form or another it's going to get it, not as a punishment from outside but as the completion of a pattern already started." ~ Mary Midgley
"And on the pedestal these words appear: 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away." ~ Percy Bysshe Shelley, Ozymandias
It's been wild watching Ms shoot itself in the foot every year for the past 20 years.
I saw a vid where they installed a recent version of linux on a Pentium 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DiK5FDpBTg
> You had unsaved work? Too bad, it's gone, get bent.
This has happened to me a couple of times. I put the PC to sleep and the next morning I discover it has decided to close everything to install an update.
Not using Windows ever again to do any work. Say what you will about Apple but at least they don't do crap like this.
I aspire to have your level of confidence in anything that amounts to leaving unsaved work in any sort of shape or form.
While my instinctual reaction is the same, that's only because I've been hurt by losing work the same way presumable everybody else has. But that's all because Windows hasn't elected to solve this problem.
Macs (largely) don't have this problem, so it's clearly solvable. There isn't any inherent law of computing or the universe that says it should be this way.
I still press CMD+S on Macs every time I'm done typing in something, but that's only because I've been hurt and live with the trauma, so to speak. There's no reason to hurt others to learn a lesson that doesn't actually have any value.
The point is, the user shouldn't have to work around the OS. The OS should work around the user. If there are unsaved files, the OS should not be installing an update and removing unsaved work.
I installed Windows Update Blocker (AKA "WUB") and i've stopped the nonsense shutdowns late at night.
That helped stopping the aggravation, but lets see how long I last. I do feel my next computer will be a Linux OS ... but i'm not a programmer and I wince at having to do all the wine installs fresh...
Correct. Windows is not a serious operating system. It really never has been. I've been on desktop linux for decades now. Linux is a serious operating system. Nothing happens without you asking it too. My linux computers are never turned off, since they day I turn them on, except for the occasional kernel upgrade. Otherwise, all upgrades are live. Even most kernel upgrades can be avoided if you use one of the modern patch frameworks
I literally cannot count the number of times I put my Linux computer to sleep and it just doesn't wake up, and I have to hard reset the power to get it to do anything. I would never leave anything unsaved open for an extended period of time on a graphical Linux system.
Happens 90% of the time on my standard Elitebook laptop when I run windows. It just crashes and has the fan going crazy. On Linux it's been fine since day one, some 5 years ago.
But this is a bug, and it's very different from the OS voluntarily rebooting without your consent.
The nice thing about Linux is not waking up from sleep is a bug. On windows, the restarts at inopportune times is a feature!
That's not nice to have unfixed bugs like that, but more to your point - not a sign of a serious OS
Actually no. Linux pretty closely follows the ACPI standard. The issue is that ACPI implementors specifically work around bugs in Windows, which does not follow the standard well and has its own quirks. Thus, in order to make Linux 'work' with the broken hardware, they'd have to add bugs. Again, we see the issue with Microsoft dominance. A serious OS would implement the standard as written, not demand that others follow its bugginess.
Happens to me way too often. And it is frustrating if backup auto save is not included in the system. I have disabled auto update because of this.
Happened to me just a few days ago. Woke up, turned on PC, all my open programs were gone due to a Windows Update...
Not just a couple of times. It happened to me countless times.
the flip side of this is I can't count the number of times that cropping a screenshot in paint and leaving it in the background has partially stopped my PC from rebooting, and I've discovered the following morning that "you have unsaved work" on paint interrupted the shutdown and i need to do the shutdown _again_.
Meanwhile on macOS, modern apps will not lose data if the power is janked out at any point.
The fact that you leave unsaved work overnight is the actual crazy part.
Why though? On Mac, I have tons of unsaved work: many TextEdit windows which keep their state for many months, even through reboots. And it has been working like for at least 10 years. It's such a simple, little quality-of-life thing. And Microsoft just doesn't care.
This is what a computer should be doing: helping the user to get their work done, without the user having to worry about insignificant details about saving files. E.g. does Google Docs ever ask where to save a file before closing the browser or shutting down the computer? No you just get an untitled document that is automatically saved. If I want to rename it or save it in a different location, I am free to do so. But as long as I don't, it doesn't get in the way and just persists stuff automatically.
I don't disagree, but you have to know which applications reliably keep their state across restarts. You can't blindly rely on it on any desktop system. The Microsoft Office applications actually do auto-save documents since a couple of years ago, even though the recovery UX can be a bit awkward.
What Microsoft doesn't care about is that you may have applications running that don't do that, when Windows reboots for updates.
On macOS the feature is baked into the OS's APIs, the app developer just opts into using them. If they don't, quitting with unsaved work will prompt the user modally, and block the restart to the point where the OS will timeout the reboot process and give up. The only way to purposefully lose unsaved work in almsot every app I've ever used on macOS is to yank the power cable or hold the power button down.
Window locations and app state are written to plist files, again, using OS libraries and APIs for app resume. I can reboot my Mac and not even realize it happened sometimes it all comes back the way it was.
The blocking happens on Windows as well, except that the timeout logic is the reverse: it force-quits the applications then, because presumably the potential security update is more important.
Yep. On Mac (and Linux, actually) I know of some applications that do that. I also know that on Windows most applications don't do that. I would also never leave un-saved work open on Windows.
I was replying to: "The fact that you leave unsaved work overnight is the actual crazy part". As long as you know which apps auto-save and know you can somewhat rely on them, it's not so crazy.
> Why though?
> Microsoft just doesn't care.
So you know why. Also, Macs have other apps besides textedit, do all of them preserve unsaved docs across restarts?
> what a computer should be doing
Ok, but the discussion is about reality
Most stuff on my mac seems ok. The clunkiest is the Microsoft software - Word and Excel but even that sort of works.
> Macs have other apps besides textedit, do all of them preserve unsaved docs across restarts?
Every Mac app I’ve ever used does.
I don’t really care though, I reboot at most once ever six months
[flagged]
Of course, everyone has their own workflow. I won't tell anyone to adjust their workflow. But the exact point I was trying to make is that it's not random apps. It's specific apps that one knows about and how they behave. And once you know those apps (like TextEdit, Google Docs, etc) you can pretty much rely on it to survive reboots and power outages.
Personally it's rare that I leave something unsaved. That said it has never been an issue on macOS in 20 years.
There's plenty of tasks that can take hours that don't save their progress. E.g. running a simulation, training an AI model, rendering video. Or, these days, leaving agentic AI models running in a loop implementing tasks.
Even if the state is recoverable, it doesn't mean that it's simple to recover.
I would be infuriated if my OS decided to shut itself down without permission.
Huh?
I use a mac and a linux box. I'd never cross my mind that I cant leave some unsaved changes overnight. I leave unsaved changes for weeks across the many things I am working on.
I've been running Ubuntu Linux for a long time now (over a decade, started with 8.04). Linux still has it's fair share of bugs but I'll take having to deal with those over running Windows or MacOS any day.
For me the biggest thing is control, with Windows there are some things like updates that you have zero control over. It's the same issue with MacOS, you have more control than Windows but you're still at the whims of Apple's design choices every year when they decide to release a new OS update.
Linux, for all it's issues, give you absolute control over your system and as a developer I've found this one feature outweighs pretty much all the issues and negatives about the OS. Updates don't run unless I tell them to run, OS doesn't upgrade unless I tell it to. Even when it comes to bugs at least you have the power to fix them instead of waiting on an update hoping it will resolve that issue. Granted in reality I wait for updates to fix various small issues but for bigger ones that impact my workflow I will go through the trouble of fixing it.
I don't see regular users adopting Linux anytime soon but I'm quickly seeing adoption pickup among the more technical community. Previously only a subset of technical folks actually ran Linux because Windows/MacOS just worked but I see more and more of them jumping ship with how awful Windows and MacOS have become.
I remember when Ubuntu decided to reroute apt installations into SNAP installs. So you install a package via apt and there was logic to see if they should disregard your command and install a SNAP instead. Do they still do that?
It annoyed me so much that I switched to mint.
> Do they still do that?
Yes. I know its more than firefox, but I don't have the full list. On 24.04:
I agree with the sentiment but I keep Snap disabled because I like Kubuntu (Ubuntu with KDE) for its rock solid stability.
The control is both a blessing and a curse. It’s really easy to accidentally screw things up when e.g. trying to polish some of the rough edges or otherwise make the system function as desired. It also may not be of any help if the issue you’re facing is too esoteric for anybody else to have posted about it online (or for LLMs to be of any assistance).
It would help a lot if there were a distro that was polished and complete enough that most people – even those of us who are more technical and are more demanding – rarely if ever have any need to dive under the hood. Then the control becomes purely an asset.
This is literally Linux Mint, Zorin, and several other distros. I haven't had to "go under the hood" on my daily driver machines that run either of these distros for over 7 years.
I think at this point people are just (reasonably) making excuses not to change.
Those and other big distros are better in that regard, but they're still not perfect. Depending on one's machine and needs, there can still be pain.
One recent example I experienced is jumping through hoops to get virtualization enabled in Fedora… it takes several steps that are not obvious at all. I understand not having it enabled by default since many won't need it, but there's no reason that can't just be a single CLI command that does it all.
Things like that can be unbelievably annoying and confusing on Windows or Macs, too. Even worse, they can just turn out to be impossible: the company can actively be preventing you from doing the thing that you want to do, refuses to give you enough access to your own system to do the thing you want to do, and/or sells permission to do what you want to do as an upgrade that you have to renew yearly.
These are things that don't happen in Linux. Doing what you want to do might be difficult (depending on how unusual it is), but there's no one actively trying to stop you from doing it for their own purposes (except systemd.)
Also, as an aside, a reason that Windows and Macs might have easy virtualization (I have no idea if they do) is because of how often they're running Linux VMs.
One needs to go a fair ways off the beaten path before they'll start running into trouble like that under macOS and Windows.
For macOS in particular, most trouble that more tinker-y users might encounter disappears if guardrails (immutable system image, etc) are disabled. Virtualization generally "just works" by way of the stock Virtualization.framework and Hypervisor.framework, which virtualization apps like QEMU can then use, but bespoke virtualization like that QEMU also ships with or that built into VirtualBox and VMWare works fine too. No toggles or terminal commands necessary. Linux does get virtualized a lot, but people frequently virtualize Windows and macOS as well.
What exactly did you need to do? All I've ever had to do to get QEMU working properly has been to make sure KVM is enabled in the BIOS (which you have to do on all OSs).
Just run a KVM based Windows VM (via GNOME Boxes, virt-manager, etc. On my Fedora install I had to install the @virtualization meta-package and enable dameons among other things, and the only reason I knew to do that is because I looked it up. Without that Boxes, etc just throws an unhelpful error that doesn’t suggest that more packages or config changes are needed.
I had to enable virtualization features in BIOS too, but that’s entirely separate and not the fault of any Linux distro.
Ah, I guess I might be a little unusual in that I use the QEMU CLI directly. I tried some QEMU GUIs in the past but they were annoying to get working so I just learned the CLI.
There's several distros that are fully usable without ever touching a terminal. The control is a gradient, some distros give you all the control and others (eg. SteamOS) lock down your root filesystem and sandbox everything from the internet.
> It’s really easy to accidentally screw things up when e.g. trying to polish some of the rough edges or otherwise make the system function as desired.
'Similar to Windows' System Restore and macOS's Time Machine', the Linux 'Timeshift' tool can be used to do make periodic saves of your OS files & settings. (They can be saved elsewhere.) Restoration is a cinch.
Mint program 'Backup Tool' allows users to save and restore files within their home directory (incl. config folder and separately installed apps).
You do have to know what you're doing. A complete OS has a bunch of components that work together. But an out of the box distro hides all that do you end up fiddling with incomplete knowledge.
Gentoo is great for learning what all the individual components are. You install it by booting a kernel from a USB stick then chrooting into your newly installed system to start installing and configuring everything. Just knowing the existence of individual components helps a lot. Plus Gentoo gives you more control than almost any other distro (much more than Arch, for example).
> I've been running Ubuntu Linux for a long time now...Linux still has it's fair share of bugs...
> I don't see regular users adopting Linux anytime soon...
I can see why you think the second statement is true based on the first statements. When Ubuntu switched their desktop to Gnome, they gave up on being the best Linux desktop distro. I'd recommend you to try Linux Mint.
> switched their desktop to Gnome, they gave up on being the best Linux desktop distro.
Mint is also based on GNOME.
https://linuxmint-developer-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
Let me recommend Fedora to you Timbit.
Debian family is outdated and builds with bugs upon release.
I too was corrupted by Ubuntu's marketing strategy of being popular and using the misleading word 'Stable'.
I tried Fedora once. On a fresh install, all it did was clog up all the hard drive space with error logs within 3 days.
I'm not interested in any distro that is controlled by a corporation. IBM is a corporation and they already screwed up CentOS and is eventually going to screw up Fedora someday because that's what corporations do, and I'm not interesting in going through that.
You have your fun running Fedora for now but know you're going to get burned someday.
What exactly is "outdated" about Debian?
I'm curious, can you elaborate on why you believe that changing to Gnome meant they were giving up on being the best desktop distro?
Well, to start they tried putting Amazon ads in Unity's Dock which was also doing data collection, but removed them after the backlash.
Then they switched to Gnome, meaning they gave up on their own desktop, Unity, so they were no longer dictating what their desktop was like, so how much did they care?
Since then they have replaced a number of apps with SNAPs which are only available from Canonical so many people see it as an attempt to corner the Linux market. Many see AppImages and Flatpacks as better than SNAPs.
They are a company. They exist to make money. Of course they are going to decide to do things that make more money and annoy their users.
>Linux still has it's fair share of bugs
>Linux, for all it's issues
You are confusing debian-family with Linux. Debian family is designed to be outdated upon release. When they say "Stable" it doesn't mean 'Stable like a table'. It means version fixed. You get outdated software that has bugs baked into it.
Fedora is modern and those bugs are fixed already.
Reminder Fedora is not Arch. Don't confuse the two.
Meh, I don't care much about control, I care more about getting my work done with the least amount of friction. Macs do that for me. Linux and Windows have too many barriers to make them a daily GUI driver.
Its was a good read until at the end ...
> For the remainder of 2026, Microsoft is cooking up a big one: replacing more and more native apps with React Native. But don't let the name fool you, there's nothing "native" about it. These are projects designed to be easily ported across any machine and architecture, because underneath it all, it's just JavaScript. And each one spawns its own Chromium process, gobbling up your RAM so you can enjoy the privilege of opening the Settings app.
I'm a little tired of people junking on react native when they have no clue what they talked about (And I'm not even react native dev but iOS dev). React Native doesn't spawn any chromium process. This is not electron. React Native doesn't even use v8 engine. All UI views and widgets are native. Platform SDK is native, Yoga Layout is native C++ and even faster than UIKit layout. Majority of RN code is Native - go have a look at github at languages section. JS is only 19% of codebase, everything else is C++, Obj-C, Obj-C++, Kotlin, Java.
The problem AFAIK with startup being laggy was making http requests to downloads those ads.
> React Native doesn't even use v8 engine
Are you saying you would use React Native with a language other than JS?
Engines other than v8 exist. React Native uses Hermes or JavaScriptCore (Apple/Safari). [0]
Other engines include SpiderMonkey (Mozilla/Firefox) [1] and QuickJS [2]
[0]: https://reactnative.dev/docs/javascript-environment
[1]: https://spidermonkey.dev/
[2]: https://bellard.org/quickjs/
I'm a little tired of "hey I installed Linux!" posts. Ok, you installed Linux. Great. Wow! Now what, wanna show a screenshot of your desktop with an anime girl as the baackground and neofetch in a terminal window?
This comment seems fully detached from both the main linked article and the comment it replies to.
Did you read it? It's exactly what I posted, but 100x longer, and with memes.
I did read it, but it sounds like you didn't. It had quite a lot to say about the reason for the switch, the challenges involved, and alternative software to meet real needs. Eye candy was not the focus at all.
neofetch is outdated. fastfetch is the new neofetch now.
I'm still surviving on Windows but only because over the last four years, as each new annoyance and regression arose, I made the mistake of very gradually, in tiny increments, sinking the time into invoking the arcane incantations necessary to tame each one.
15 minutes to deactivate an entire branch of notification pathways, 20 minutes to (mostly) restore the Right-Ctrl key they hijacked into a CoPilot key. 10 minutes to restore Win10 functionality to the Win11 taskbar with the wonderful ExplorerPatcher. $5 spent on Start11 to sidestep the whole start menu train wreck. And little 3 to 5 minute fixes with WindHawk (an amazing store-like platform to discover, install and manage open source Windows GUI patches).
I'm the stupid frog who didn't leap from the gradually heating pot. I acclimated to the boiling. And it's... okay. At least for now. But I know someday soon, the thousand faceless product managers at MSFT will break something unfixable. Somehow exceed the considerable abilities of the large community finding clever hacks and patches to keep the harsh Win wasteland livable for hardy souls.
While I greatly appreciate Linux philosophically and deeply respect it architecturally, I still really liked what Windows got so close to being - right before MSFT shifted biz models, simultaneously de-investing and turning it into a promotional platform for their other business. When that day comes, it'll suck to leave behind the wonderful third-party tools like Everything search, Ditto clipboard and AHK automation that streamline my day.
The thing I don't understand is why MSFT refuses to just make a version of Windows that's a Product again. I'd gladly pay them $100/yr for an upgraded "Windows Ti Super+" that just wants to be a good operating system for advanced users, instead of a strategic moat or monetization flywheel.
I never realized Windows tuning was a thing (WindHawk, Start11). Thank you for mentioning those.
I recently had to install Windows 11 to play a video game that runs janky on Linux, and I am encountering all the annoying problems people are describing in this thread (forced updates, full-screen ads, etc). It does not bother me too much, since I effectively use Windows only to play that one game. But maybe I can tune Windows 11 into something less obtrusive with the custom hacks. Thanks.
You're welcome. One of the best things I did once I realized I was reluctantly on this journey, was start keeping notes in a cloud backed-up file of every registry setting I tweaked or little utility I installed. Just a quick cut and paste to remind me.
Of course some of the notes become stale or irrelevant as things evolve but it's still invaluable insurance if this Windows install eventually gets crufty and needs to be hosed out for a fresh start (which eventually happens even with diligent hygiene). Also, don't forget ExplorerPatcher which restores some essential Win10 taskbar and explorer functionality MSFT removed from Win11 (promising to eventually replace with new code but now, years later, obviously never will). It's clear at this point MSFT isn't devoting any serious effort toward re-implementing previous functionality or creating new features for power users.
AFAICT, the only things getting meaningful funding now are fixing critical 0days / bugs, reworking the interface to create "more exposure vectors to support corporate initiatives" and a couple under-resourced teams clearing only the most critical technical debt threatening the whole edifice. Meanwhile, every PM or UX designer who suggests "Hey, it'd be easier to just decide that new feature or unrestored functionality will just confuse 'our average user'" gets promoted. I just feel sorry for the engineers still there who joined the Windows team wanting to build toward a state-of-the-art operating system supporting a powerful, flexible, extensible, customizable user interface. Now it's "If it ain't broken, there's no funding to fix it" and "If it just broke, see if we can just remove it instead of fixing it", "if it's there but incomplete, remove what's there, patch over the hole and we'll pretend it was never there." And finally, "You seem ambitious and diligent, we just wish you'd align your interests with current strategic priorities (ie sticking AI where it doesn't belong or pushing Office, cloud, etc subs)."
Shhh! Don’t tell anyone.
Years ago MS depended on Windows. It was the profit center. Everything MS did was a moat to sell more seats. Even MS-Exchange was just a ploy to force enterprises to stop deploying any other operating system.
That all changed with Azure.
MS realized they could make billions in Windows or trillions with Azure.
They changed the org structure. Now Azure is at the top and everything else is a moat or a way to draw people to Azure. They changed the sales commission (your multiplier doesn’t kick in unless you’ve sold enough cloud services).
Windows is no longer a profit center. It’s a cost center.
Anything that scares people away from using Windows is a benefit.
Let those other suckers spend money developing operating systems. As long as it runs on a VM in Azure, Microsoft will profit.
Windows being worse and worse isn’t a bug. It’s a feature.
I agree, at this point it seems clear that Windows is not their priority anymore and they're trying to scare its users away. But Windows is so penetrated into everyone's office, industry and home that they shouldn't be allowed by law to just leave it like this.
Apple forced me to switch to Linux!
Linux should consider paying Microsoft and Apple for new customers. Perhaps the customer acquisition funnel is quite long, at least it took 20 years of using Apple in my case before switching to Debian (Xfce), but it was worth it!
As a regular linux user for the last 20 years, who had used windows for games for about 25 of the last 30 years. When I had gotten a macbook pro for work in a company that was all apple there were three things that stood out: The M processors are amazing, the apple hardware is really good, and mac os is absolutely awful. I have no idea how people use mac.
> mac os is absolutely awful. I have no idea how people use mac.
I hear this from a lot of people when they get their first Mac. When they get specific about what their issues are, it tends to be that macOS doesn't do a thing how they are used to doing it, which is more of a learning curve issue, or rigid thinking. Apple software can be quite opinionated, those who fight against those opinions tend to have a hard time. This is true of any opinionated software.
> Apple software can be quite opinionated, those who fight against those opinions tend to have a hard time. This is true of any opinionated software.
And this is why many like me prefer Linux. We have our own opinions, and Linux enables us to enforce our opinions.
I've been a Linux guy for 25 years, and used Windows at work for the last 15. I now have to use MacOS at work.
I miss Windows. It wasn't totally better, but I managed to overcome most Windows headaches with workarounds. I haven't found the alternatives yet to MacOS.
From my perspective, both Windows and MacOS suck - but in different ways. I think the problem many Linux folks have with MacOS is that it is the "uncanny valley" of Linux. You get happy that you can use your usual UNIX flows, and then you find out that you can't.
I really want a good tiling window manager. I have yet to find one on MacOS that has the features AwesomeWM have.
It really sucks not being able to rebind keys to use Ctrl instead of Cmd in many apps. For basic tasks (opening/closing browser tabs), I have to use one set of keys in the daytime (at work), and another at night (at home). Why won't MacOS let me change them?
I got used to the Mac keyboard layout and I think it makes more sense - I now remap all Linux (using keyd) to actually use the Mac layout. The main thing that I like is that it's more ergonomic for me to press command + something with my thumb, than it is to press control + something with my little finger. So command+c, command+v, command+Tab, command+`... are all easily reachable when my fingers are still in the writing letters position, just slightly moved to the left.
MacOS lets you rebind Caps Lock, Ctrl, Option, Command, and the Globe/fn key in Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard shortcuts... > Modifier Keys. Does that not work for you?
I don't recall what problem I had with it, but it was a case of solving one problem and introducing another.
I don't want to globally swap Ctrl and Cmd. For some apps, the keys are identical to that on Windows. For others, it isn't. I need to be able to do it on a per app basis.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I assume the problem would be in the Terminal (assuming you use it), where Control + C is an often used shortcut, and flipping the modifiers globally would make this Command + C.
macOS uses Command instead of Control for a lot of things, but they didn't change how the shell works.
Most of the stuff isn't really personal preference, more like being temporarily used to a different way.
Btw search "modifier keys" in Mac sysprefs if you want to rebind command to control. I'm also sick of using separate shortcuts at work, but the other way around, gonna rebind Ubuntu.
I use Karabinier to remap keys. Mac OS makes you work hard to enable it the first time, though.
I can give you a few examples:
Packages are not done well compared to linux. Brew is a poor replacement. It feels like the terminal and everything involved is constantly out of date.
The OS just has a lot of weird things, like the ribbon at the bottom taking up so much space. When I made is smaller and hidden except on mouse over it was incredibly rough.
Window management is decades behind windows or linux. It doesn't like maximizing windows and doesn't make partitioning screen space easy. I had to download a third party app to make it better, which was still worse than windows even in windows 7, and miles worse than linux with i3.
Mac has a lot of rough spots. I have two external monitors and occasionally after updates one monitor would be fuzzy or different resolutions, and it wouldn't go back until the next update.
I found myself really frustrated trying to use MacOS at work, because I'm a heavy user of virtual desktops. Turns out, I couldn't find a way to disable animations to switch between virtual desktops on MacOS. If there is a way, I'd be surprised.
Shortening the animation to minimum was not sufficient for my preference.
When did you use a Mac last, 2010?
You can run nix on macOS now. You can also drag windows into corners or edges to tile them, it is almost exactly like Windows 7 or 10. You can even have tiling window managers on macOS that emulate i3.
Your complaints with the dock seem like a personal choice... I like the dock behavior but if you don't, probably not a lot that will fix that, it will always suck.
Sad to report that external monitor support is still terrible.
2024. Dragging windows to the corners isnt how I would do it in windows or linux, I just use a super key and an arrow key and it moves it as needed along the tile. Having to drag a window around is terrible design.
You can set whatever keyboard shortcut you want if you don’t want to drag the window.
Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts… > Windows > Quarters
Make them whatever you think they should be. No one is being forced to drag windows.
Going all the way back to Windows 7 I preferred dragging to arrow keys, I legitimately don’t understand how that’s “terrible design” and not just a personal preference.
I would suspect a sizable portion of Windows users didn’t even realize that snapping with the arrow keys was possible, since keyboard shortcuts are (generally) harder to discover than mouse actions.
MacOs is extraordinarily opinionated about how everything should work and frequently attempt to predict your workflow.
Linux/Windows (historically) were straightforawrd, each tool did exactly what it said it would do, and it was up to you to learn how to use the tools available.
On linux/windows, if a button was "capture image", it would just capture the image on the screen. On a mac a "capture image" button could do anything from displaying the image on the screen, to saving it in a photos folder, to saving and syncing it to an iCloud account. Whatever the apple PM decided the most common use case was, and god help you if you want to do something different.
If you've been in the mac ecosystem for a while, you've grown used to this and don't notice any longer. You may even occasionally express happiness when a function does something unexpected and helpful!
If you're coming from anywhere else, its unbelievably painful.
I’d frame it slightly differently.
With Linux/Windows you’re supplied with a toolbox and from that toolbox you’re expected to cobble together a workflow that works for you and maintain it.
I spent a significant amount of time trying to learn Tasks inside of Outlook and come up with a system that would make it remotely useful. I failed repeatedly. They eventually bought Wunderlist and replaced it with that, which still has some rough edges (last I tried) due to the legacy Outlook Tasks integration.
Apple, more often than not, is looking to identify a problem and give an opinionated solution on how to handle it. If you’re ok with their solution, great, problem solved. If you’re not, you end up either fighting with the Apple tools or finding a 3rd party toolbox style app that lets you cobble together a workflow. I found just going with the opinionated solution removes a lot of needless stress from my life. There are some places I do go 3rd party, but I reevaluate often to ask if I really need these things and if they’re worth the trouble.
It ends up being a question of what my goals are with the computer. Am I looking to work on the operating system and apps to tune them to exactly what I want, or am I just looking for the system to fade into the background so I can do other things. When I was younger, I found tweaking and playing with everything to be a bit of a hobby. These days, I just want to do what I need to get done and move on with my life.
> This is true of any opinionated software.
No, good opinions exist, some of them include respect for user customization so that you can tweak your way out of pain.
> or rigid thinking.
Indeed, it's the users who are awful!
I switched to Mac as my primary two years ago and I'm still finding myself frustrated at the software a lot.
It's not just that it's opinionated - that's fine. It's that those opinions are often just poor UX.
Not just this. I'm linux/macos user since early 2000's and still sometimes hate macos because they have very annoying bugs that are never fixed, and annoying corpo decisions.
E.g. it keeps opening Music app whenever I connect bluetooth earbuds. I can't delete Music app, it just keeps popping up with imbecile message about "user is not logged in" or something. I run a script that monitors that Music.app is running and kills-9 it.
Or blinking desktop background issue, that's been there for years, accumulated many support threads, and still not fixed.
Random services like coreaudiod that suddenly start consuming 100% CPU for no apparent reason.
Macbook throttling (thanks God, gone with M cpu's)
I can keep going but my point is macos has legit problems that can't be simply shrugged off with "they just hold it the wrong way".
Like any other mass product tbh, except rare ideal products like Factorio game or sqlite.
I haven't had that Bluetooth issue (but I haven't tried connecting my non-airpods to my mac).
Have you tried this? I saw it as a fix over on Reddit.
Privacy & Security > Bluetooth > Click the + > Add Music from Applications > Toggle to disabled
(This is insane to have to do, but better than running a script to monitor for it and kill it)
There's something to it.
On that note, is there any GUI tool that allows me to browse my zip archives without unpacking them, and is also free?
Home/End don't work correctly (external keyboard).
Cmd-Tab switching between applications instead of windows is utterly stupid. (Yes I know there is some magic keystroke that will do it, but who even wants the standard behavior? Like why even do that?)
If there is a window under another window, and you click on something in it, the OS will ignore the click, it will just activate the window.
So now you have to click twice, except what if it's actually active? So now you have to always check if a window is active - which is harder than necessary because of how Macs have the toolbar on top, not near the actual window. (This is especially bad when you have two monitors.)
The toolbar is far from the window, leading to extra mouse movements.
There is no maximize button, instead it's a full screen button.
If you manage to get a window off-screen, there's almost no way to get it back (you have to pick tile windows or something like that to make the mac move it). If you do show all windows, and click on it, nothing obvious happens.
I'm trying to add the screenshot app to the launch bar - I can't, I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
The finder is an utter disaster - I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory. It's like finder is trying very hard to pretend there's no such thing as directories.
If you have two monitors you can't have an app halfway across both of them, it's always on one of the order.
If I move an app to the bottom right corner the OS will "helpfully" move it back up, even though I moved it down. (This is especially funny when you realize it frequently manages to place windows off screen - why can't it be helpful then?)
When you drag a window sometimes you get this white outline that will resize the window for your screen - I have yet to figure out when this activates and when it doesn't.
When you drag a window from a larger monitor to a small one, it will resize it - sometime. But despite that it manages to place the window offset - so it's the right size, but like 40 pixels to the left.
Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
I hate mac os window management as much as the next guy, but I do find that it's much easier to tell which window is actually active than on newer versions of windows where all windows look the same. Hell, I've typed my password in the wrong window more times than I can count, because even though the window which just appeared was on top, had a blinking cursor and everything, it wasn't active. This even happened with the UAC prompt, but I think it's been fixed now.
I also like the first click in a window to not be passed through. I don't want to have to make sure I'm not clicking on some active part which will immediately have an unwanted effect. I've actually configured my Linux WM to behave that way. It still passes through the scroll wheel, though.
> The finder is an utter disaster - I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory. It's like finder is trying very hard to pretend there's no such thing as directories.
You can enable a clickable bread-crumb panel somewhere. Also, cmd+up. cmd+down goes down one level, instead of enter. This was very frustrating to me at first.
> I'm trying to add the screenshot app to the launch bar - I can't, I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
Never tried to do that, but I loved that there were system-wide shortcuts to access it, with an easy switch between modes (cmd+shift+3/4 for screen / area if memory serves).
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
On Windows, I have the opposite problem, kind of. It only detects my 5k external screen as such if it's plugged in when booting up. Unplug while it's running, or sleep/wake the laptop and it's gone. Linux, again, works fine.
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
HOLY SHIT, my work Mac does this all the time and my personal Mac does not, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, nobody I have talked to understands it, it drives me absolutely insane.
Everything else in your post is either a personal preference and/or not a problem for my workflow
> Home/End don't work correctly (external keyboard).
macOS tends to use the arrow keys for this, with various modifiers. Command + the arrow moves to the start or end of things (documents or lines), Option will be at the word or line level. Adding Shift to either of those will highlight those regions.
> Cmd-Tab switching between applications instead of windows is utterly stupid.
I've never been a cmd-tab user, so I don't notice thins. Once Exposé (now Mission Control) came out, I just stuck with that. I bind it to an extra button on my mouse.
> The toolbar is far from the window, leading to extra mouse movements.
The reason for this dates back to the original design of the Lisa. Bill Atkinson explains it in this video. It's a trade off between having issues with menus when windows are small, and having to move more. I believe this is why they added mouse acceleration, so no matter where you were, you could get up to the menus fairly quickly.
https://youtu.be/Qg0mHFcB510?si=yc0uCunQiMufGc75&t=416
> There is no maximize button, instead it's a full screen button.
They're starting to get better on this. The full screen button has a menu to do many things, and one of them is to maximize (they call it Fill). You can also just drag the window to the top edge to maximize it, like Aerosnap on Windows.
> If you manage to get a window off-screen, there's almost no way to get it back
Windows > Center, will bring the active window to the center of the screen.
> I click on Launchpad and find it, but you can't right click on any of the icons in there to do anything with them.
You can drag icons from LaunchPad to the Dock to add them. They'll still be where they were in LaunchPad, but now also in the Dock for quick access. LaunchPad is gone in macOS 26 though, so you can either right-click it in the Dock while it's there to tell it to keep in there (or just drag it over to the left and it will remember it)... or find it in Finder /Applications/Utilities/Screenshot
> I can not for the life of me figure out how to go up one level in a directory.
I usually show the Path Bar whenever I get a new Mac. In Finder, View > Show Path Bar. This shows your path at the bottom of the Finder window. You can click on any parent directory to go to it.
If you don't want to do that, or want another way, right-click the folder name at the top of the Finder window. This will show you a dropdown menu of all the parent directories, pick however far you want to go up the tree.
> If you have two monitors you can't have an app halfway across both of them, it's always on one of the order.
This one annoys me a bit too, and can lead to that window off-screen thing you mentioned earlier. It's one of the reason I went with a large primary monitor instead of having 4 external displays, like I had before.
> If I move an app to the bottom right corner the OS will "helpfully" move it back up
I think this has to do with the horizontal area the Dock is on being "protected" for lack of a better word, so nothing gets trapped behind the Dock. I agree, that having it do this for off-screen windows would be nice.
> When you drag a window sometimes you get this white outline that will resize the window for your screen
This is what I mentioned earlier to maximize. It works pretty much like on Windows. It activates not when the window hits an edge, but when your mouse cursor that is holding a window hits an edge.
Top edge: Maximize Side edge: Half the screen Corner: 1/4 of the screen
By default there will be gaps between these tiled windows, which some people don't like. You can remove the gaps in the Settings.
> When you drag a window from a larger monitor to a small one, it will resize it
I think this has to do with scaling of the monitors, or just that one monitor is dramatically smaller. My main setup is a laptop + a large monitor. The windows on my main display are bigger than the entire laptop screen, so it makes them smaller so they fit.
> Every single time I reboot, if I have to unplug my external monitor, and keyboard, login, then plug them back in. Otherwise it refuses to talk to them.
On my work setup I use an CalDigit dock and I occasionally have this happen after a big upgrade. I don't have to disconnect everything, I just have to login using my laptop, then trust the dock.
On my home setup, I use my monitor as the dock for my mouse and keyboard. With this, every time I reboot I need to login with the laptop and then approve the monitor as the dock for the other things to work. I don't have to unplug/replug anything (thankfully).
I tried looking into this once or twice. People online talked about various trust settings, but nothing seemed to stick. I really only reboot when there is an update, so it's pretty infrequent. If I was rebooting daily I'm sure it would drive me insane, to the point where I'd stop using the monitor as a dock.
> and mac os is absolutely awful. I have no idea how people use Mac.
Not sure about other people, but in my case I spend 99% of the time using software made by 3rd parties so my exposure to the OS is very limited.
Latest OS is making life miserable though, compared to all the previous releases.
Anything in particular? I get that it takes some tweaking but so does Linux. The biggest thing that you'll probably never get the way you want is window tiling - it's my personal bugaboo with MacOS. Maybe there's a way to get what I want ...
For me, the biggest pain point is the way it decides which window to bring to the front. If I minimize a window, and then click on the application in the bar, it won't show the window just minimized, instead it always seems to show the older window. Really annoying when using an app with many windows
right click on the app and select the window you want...
right, but if you cmd-tab, it brings up ALL the windows: say you had multiple browser windows open, and only want to go back to the one you just used before (think reading some docs while coding).
There's a couple but nothing I've found at the level of i3 or whatever the hyprland equivalent is.
“I get that it takes some tweaking (MacOS)” How times have changed, it used to be as intuitive as drinking water.
Window wiling is a big one for me. I have tried the third party options, and nothing compares to i3.
There are an absolute ton of very capable tiling window managers for macOS, posted here frequently. From yabi to aerospace to fully programmable ones like hammerspoon. A quick search will turn up plenty more. I would be shocked if none of them meet your needs.
Shouldn't need to install third party stuff for such a basic feature. One more thing that will possibly break with updates or not play nice with something.
Fucking Finder. What a colossal dumpster fire. It drags that entire OS down.
Better than Windows Explorer
No it's not. It's one of very few things that Windows does better
Windows explorer got significantly better in 11, except for fucking context menus. Also it's incredibly slow and unstable now and frequently crashes, taking the taskbar down with it (???).
But, at least it has tabs. Jesus Christ, took long enough.
Interesting. My experience over a decade was that (expensive) Apple hardware was unreliable or poorly designed ... from the IIsi to the iMac. One exception: the murdered Power clone was great. The iMac vertical screen-stripe fiasco (affected hundreds of users within the warranty period, before they shut down the forum, then took years to respond to) was capped with a hard-drive fail after a year. My 'never again' still in effect 15 years later.
My home-made AMD tower is in its 6th year (running Linux) with no, zero, fails.
Man, we didn't have this all along.
Six years ago everything was stable and solid, but Apple's board of directors seems to have decided that new Mac users can't handle a computer interface anymore and started merging it with mobile OS interfaces. And the result is absolutely terrible.
They also decided that they have to capture React devs and everything should use a declarative UI, which has brought us the wonderful new Systems Settings.
Windows is such garbage, I can't understand how you think MacOS is worse lol. It's just Unix. Linux is definitely better than both though
They didn't say they think macOS is worse, though.
Windows is absolute garbage, I agree. But the application windows behave normally, maximize when I want them, will take half a screen, quarter screen, etc. with just a quick hotkey. Mac doesn't have that extremely basic functionality without a 3rd party extension, which is absurd. But I don't use windows other than if my work gives me one, I am purely linux otherwise.
Hover on the green button. Also, Mac has a really robust keyboard shortcut system. Including shortcuts for tiling.
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/tile-app-windows-mc...
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...
Hover on the green button??? I've used a personal and work Mac daily for over a decade. I had no idea. Thanks!
> I have no idea how people use mac.
Meh, it has a terminal. Good enough for me. It's worth putting up with MacOS for the hardware.
It's only fair that Linux should pay 10% of the license fee for their software to Microsoft in exchange
For a long time, I had a MBP (this is in Intel days), with a Linux VM. It was like a reverse mullet, party in front (multimedia), work in back (dev).
And then:
So I switched to System76/Linux (Pop OS) and that has been wonderful, not to mention, much cheaper.- No esc
See I'm a ends justify the means guy:
The more people forced into the beautiful world of capslock is escape the better!
Your website has stained my screen. lol
background-image: radial-gradient(circle at 12% 24%, var(--text-primary) 1.5px, transparent 1.5px),
radial-gradient(circle at 73% 67%, var(--text-primary) 1px, transparent 1px),
radial-gradient(circle at 41% 92%, var(--text-primary) 1.2px, transparent 1.2px),
radial-gradient(circle at 89% 15%, var(--text-primary) 1px, transparent 1px);
> Linux should consider paying Microsoft and Apple
Who or what is the "Linux" entity in this context?
Joking aside, I often hear people say "they should" when talking about GNU/Linux (for example: "they should just standardize on one audio stack"), as if there were a central authority making those decisions. What many don't realize is that with FOSS comes freedom of choice... and inevitably, an abundance of choice. That diversity isn't a flaw, it's a consequence of how the ecosystem works.
There's free choice for those OSes to use different kernels, but they don't, they all use the same Linux (rather than say BSD). There's a lot of advantage in getting aligned on things, even though anyone can choose not to.
It is true that Linux-based distributions have this thing in common: the Linux kernel. There have been some GNU/Hurd variants though...
I guess Linus Torvalds and co? First they'd need to standardize a Linux desktop OS.
Also who is paying "Linux" and for what?
Maybe the answer ends up being Valve.
Well at least Microsoft is a platinum member of the Linux Foundation for many years...
As much as I love the idea of moving to Linux - Mac hardware is like two years ahead of PC currently in pretty much any regard aside from gaming. I keep looking for an iteration where it makes sense to switch but currently the intel core 3 stuff is at best comparable to M5 base. Strix Halo is much more power hungry and also not that impressive other than having a bunch of cores. Nothing comes close to the pro/max chips in M4 series. And with RAM/storage pricing Apple upgrades are looking reasonably priced (TBD when M5 Pro devices launch).
So I can either get a top tier tool when I upgrade this year or I can buy a subpar device, and the power management is going to likely be even worse on Linux.
I think this mostly only holds if you use local compute in a portable form factor.
Most of my personal development these days is done on my home server - 9995wx, 768GB, rtx 6000 pro blackwell GPU in headless mode. My work development happens in a cloud workstation with 64 cores and 128GB of ram but builds are distributed and I can dial up the box size on demand for heavier development.
I use laptops practically entirely as network client devices. Browser, terminal window, perhaps a VS Code based IDE with a remote connection to my code. Tailscale on my personal laptop to work anywhere.
I'm not limited by local compute, my devices are lightweight, cheap(ish) and replaceable, not an investment.
I'd like to use this kind of setup but unfortunately every time I try there's just soo many annoying edge cases that are wasting my time. Especially when I need to do FE/Mobile - but even BE has gotchas. I guess it depends on your environment - I'll try making this setup work sometimes in the next few months again.
> Mac hardware is like two years ahead of PC currently in pretty much any regard aside from gaming
and any contemporary ergonomics. Seriously, macbooks are an environmental hazard at this point: ultra glossy screen, hand twisting keyboard, wrist cutting sharp edges, lack of modern surge protections etc. etc. I genuinely don't understand this sentiment that macbook hardware is good.
So whatever resources you have, Apple will use them mostly to render 3D glass effects. With Debian (Xfce), I can't speak for other desktop environments, you need roughly three times fewer resources to run the OS itself.
Or you just don't run Tahoe?
Actually, you don't have this choice anymore.
Apple is disabling downgrading across all of iOS, and starting to do the same with MacOS. So you need to keep old hardware to run older MacOS versions, and it's only a matter of a few years before Tahoe is the latest OS you can run on your Mac.
> Actually, you don't have this choice anymore.
I must have taken some shrooms before I downgraded from Tahoe to Sequoia a few hours ago then.
Oh, I must be clear here: I'm not considering M1 Macs or later, since Apple closed the ecosystem with Apple Silicon.
What you did is a downgrade in what's called the supported OS.
However, if you decide to downgrade to Catalina on an M1 Mac, it's not possible — Big Sur is the earliest version that runs on Apple Silicon.
Anyway, you cannot downgrade to a macOS version older than what your Mac originally came with. So if you buy a Mac now, Tahoe will be the minimum option.
Old Macs can certainly be downgraded. iOS doesn’t allow it though and they pulled the latest security update which fucking sucks. And if you buy a M5, Tahoe is the only OS that’s available.
I have nothing against old Macs and MacOS, but I certainly won't be buying anything since the Apple Silicon switch, because now only Apple controls which OS you can run.
>If you buy a machine that isn't even released yet
Uhh, I guess.
AFAIK iOS has been very locked down wrt rolling back upgrades since forever and isn't super relevant to this thread. Happy to be corrected.
M5 MacBook Pros have been shipping for over three months now.
The M5 Pro/Max variants aren't; but an M5 Mac is a thing you could have bought for a good while now.
Here’s the correction.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-m5
That's a very temporary solution to be fair. KDE and even, shudder, Gnome put mac os and windows to shame when it comes to responsiveness, performance, and resource usage.
I mean, KDE does 3x the stuff for 1/3 the cost. That's more memory and CPU for your IDE or, more likely, chrome tabs.
There is Asahi Linux project for Apple Silicon Macs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahi_Linux
It's not really viable
If Linux had a revenue stream and model, this would make sense. But the style of open-source is to make good software, and let others gravitate to you as a result.
I am good laptop hardware away from making the move.
HP Zbook Ultra G1a, 128GB RAM. Add SSD to taste. HP supported (Canonical OEM) Ubuntu with KDE. Works great as a daily driver with a UGreen GAN charger.
Interesting, I had never even heard of this laptop! Thanks for the tip!
I can also recommend HP Zbook Ultra G1a. It's probably the closest thing to Macbooks at the moment. It has lower battery life and latest M chips are still faster but it's fast enough for me. The hardware is solid and sw support is great.
I'm on frame.work with AMD, 96GB RAM. Using it with fedora+KDE Absolutely love it
Do they still use a paddle trackpad? Framework seems like its nearly perfect for me, even if I would miss Apple's displays on the MBP.
Frameworks are built like crap. Sorry for the language. Watch the laptop olympics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M96O0Sn1LXA
thinkpad
If there was an easy and supported way to put linux on a macbook I'd be back on linux but I can't give up the hardware.
Still reading the article, but early on it says:
"Also, is it weird that I still remember the specs of my first computer, 22 years later?"
My first computer was a TRS-80 Model 1, 1.78 Mz Z80 with 16 KB RAM.
That was 48 years ago. Is it weird that I remember that?
They stick with you. I remember our first family computer well (an Acer 486 with 40MB drive and 32MB RAM.)
Same for my first computer I built myself out of a TigerDirect order. Made a few mistakes there (K6 generation.)
Having these computers was such a change in our lives that they should be somewhat indelible memories.
>an Acer 486 with 40MB drive and 32MB RAM.
32MB ram <-- no way. 4 and 8MB were the standard (8MB being grand), you could find 16MB on some Pentiums. So 40MB drive and 32MB RAM is an exceptionally unlikely combo.
32MB become norm around Pentium MMX and K6(-2).
Haha, I wondered if someone would complain about 32MB. We had the board maxed out. My grandfather’s computer before ours.
A few months after taking possession, I upgraded the disk to a luxurious 400MB.
The classic NAND-me-down. My first personal computer was a "broken" 486 system I got for $25 at a yard sale. All it needed was a hard drive.
We had a 386 DX with 32MB of RAM. I don’t think it was that uncommon. DOOM still didn’t run super smoothly, though.
Nah, as the other poster said 4 or 8 MB was what was common on 486 machines. Even less on 386. Most 386 motherboards didn't even support more than 16MB.
It could have been bought old and upgraded. Not everyone had the luxury of a brand new first computer.
Possibly, but even mother boards supporting 32MB would be rare. Perhaps on "DX3"?
As for a new computer and price - it was like $1000 to get AMD 486DX2-80 with 4MB RAM in '95...
So this depends if it was a 72 pin DIMM board. I don't think you could get there (easily?) on a 30 pin board, but 72 may have had native support for 64 out of the box.
I upgraded a ~1992 Dell 486 DX2 to 36MB (original 4MB + 32MB...or was it a pair of 16MB sticks? hard to remember) around 1997 or so.
Yeah, IIRC my first computer, or at least the first one I really maintained, was a Pentium 2 with 32MB of ram and a 2gb hard drive. Good ole gateway pcs.
The first first computer I had was an old IBM PC.
TigerDirect? Wow. How did I forget the first place I used and instantly maxxed a credit card? I would look through that catalog right now if I had it.
Internet Archive has three:
https://archive.org/details/tiger-direct-pc-price-blitz-cata...
https://archive.org/details/tigerdirect-v15i5a
https://archive.org/details/tiger-direct-web-safe
My Dad had one of them. The first machine I actually purchased myself was a Dragon 32 (6809 processor, 32k RAM) sometime around 1981 - i can remember everything about it, including all the terrible cassette games I bought for it and the money I spent on ROM cartridges (word processor, assembler/debugger). These days I can't even remember what's in my Steam library.
I still have my Mac 128k with external disk drive and printer. Bought new in Jan 1985 or late Dec 1984. I paid the exorbitant price to upgrade it to 512k during the first year I owned it. I think the RAM needed to be desoldered and new chips soldered in place so it needed to be returned to the store where I bought it.
Shout out to the author of the blog for writing an engaging post that accurately the MS experience. For me, switching is still a work in progress since I am the family troubleshooter and there are lots of things to mess with. It will happen because so far, the ones I have switched have no complaints.
22 years back is still this century, nothing weird about. As for remembering stuff 6502/48KB RAM (along with call -151) seems boring, I guess.
Interestingly I can't remember any specs since about 22 years ago.
First modern PC (dos/win3.1) I had a 12mhz 286, 1 meg of ram, AT keyboard, 40MB hard drive. This progressed via a 486/sx33/4m/170mb and at one point a pentium2 600 with (eventually) 96mb of ram, 2g hard drive, then a p3 of some sort, but after that it's just "whatever".
First PC: 8088 with 640K, then a 286 with 2MB! The memory!
First own "PC": Atari ST 1040e, 1MB, with supercharger to run DOS and a 30MB hard disk the size of a regular PC. Donation from a family member.
First family PC was a used IBM PC XT, 8088 w/ 640kb ram and a cga card with an amber monochrome monitor attached. I remember getting a 14.4 modem on it, and it would freeze, had to force it to 9600bps. Then managed to wranle a 486sx w/ 4mb ram and an EGA card and display.
First decent computer I built was an AMD 5x86 133mhz with the larger cache module and a whopping 64mb ram that I'd traded for some ANSi work. The irony is for some things it ran circles around the Pentiums that friends had, for others it just slogged. Ran OS/2 warp like a beast though. Ever since then, I've mostly maxed out the ram in my systems... I wend from 128gb down to 96GB for my AM5 build though since the most I've ever used is around 75gb, and I wanted to stick to a single pair at a higher speed.
36 years ago: A Wyse branded AT clone 12.5MHz 286 with 1MB of ram, a 10MB hard drive and a Hercules graphics card (it was a decommissioned CAD machine from my dad's work).
Radio Shack PC-1 w/ the printer and cassette tape player --- really should have waited until the Model 100 was available....
I documented all of my early computers throughout early college, and I'm glad I did. I remember the first computers well, but without those notes, I wouldn't remember the first ten in so much detail. My first computer that was not a family computer was: UMAX 233mhz Pentium 2, 64Mb Ram, 8Gb HDD (was crushed when sat on by sibling)
IBM PC XT 5150 4.77MHz, 640KB, no, not weird at all :)
The 5150 was just an "IBM PC" not an XT, but still... I think we're talking about the same thing.
I still have mine! 4.77 MHz 8088, 8087 math coprocessor, CGA graphics card, 5.25" floppy (360K, double-sided, double-density), 20 MB Seagate hard drive (I believe the motherboard has newer ROM chips to support that), AST SixPakPlus expansion card to bring it up to 640 KB RAM and a Parallel Port, a Serial Port, a Game Port, and a Real Time Clock (so you don't have to type in the date and time every bootup.) At one point I had a Sound Blaster as well, which was nice. The floppy drive and the hard drive each have their own controller cards so there's almost no more room for expansion! The motherboard also has the keyboard and cassette (!!!) port. I get an error code about the cassette port so I doubt it would work but I never had the equipment to try it out anyway.
Nah, I think it's awesome. Great computer by the way. With all that raw power I bet you were doing tons of computering.
Amstrad 2286 PC, 4Mb RAM, 40Mb hard drive, 3.5" floppy.
40 Megabytes. I have photos that size these days.
I was late to the party with an Apple IIe. I've never managed to catch up since.
Mine was an Intel 386 DX 40MHZ with 2MB RAM and 80MB HD, bought in late 1993.
ZX-81 with 1Kb RAM
There is no reason you would have forgotten.
How likely is a future where Microsoft
(a) gives us back 2000/XP/7/11 options for UI,
(b) gives us a desktop-first experience when we have keyboard/mouse plugged in,
(c) stops turning every OS feature into an ad, and makes it utilitarian again,
(d) and focuses 100% on making a stable OS and high quality dev/office apps?
It would be so nice if they just forked a commit from ~2005 and started from there.
(Maybe Copilot will mess up & erase commits so they have to? One can only dream.)
> (c) stops turning every OS feature into an ad, and makes it utilitarian again
Microsoft and OpenAI have the same problem in that they have a massive userbase that costs them money but doesn’t generate any revenue. The only known ways of sustaining such a structure is ads or becoming a marketplace and they failed at the second so I doubt your wish will ever come true.
I'd be super happy if they left Windows alone and did just this for years to come. Use the other products to make money, and just maintain this Win 2000/7/10 type OS without new features, and stop trying to hide everything behind fancy UI. I still revert back to old control panels to do the necessary tweaks.
0%
I think the most likely thing that will happen is MS will have a hard split between the corporate and consumer OSes. Much like they tried to do with windows 2000 vs windows 9x.
And much like what happened with that split, I think you'll see consumers getting copies of corporate windows to get around/away from consumer windows.
Give me back the proper search which last worked Windows 7-ish (or XP?). And traditional Office interface (not stupid "context-specific" tiles).
I still find myself doing "dir /s *myfile*" on modern Windows sometimes because it's less unpredictable than searching Explorer.
I still install (and use) FAR every time I rebuild Windows :)
Edit: Reinstall, not rebuild obviously.
> It would be so nice if they just forked a commit from ~2005 and started from there.
I would say 2009. Vista's troubled driver era was necessary, and Windows 7 was pretty awesome.
>How likely is a future where Microsoft
>(a) gives us back 2000/XP/7/11 options for UI,
I actually laughed out loud when I read this, so I think extremely unlikely.
As an Ableton user myself, I’m pretty surprised that this musician could just… switch from Ableton to Bitwig. Goes to show how dire the situation was I guess.
I still have yet to hear any non-technical person I know encounter issues on Windows and seriously consider switching away. The learned helplessness instilled by Microsoft is very difficult to get people to shake off.
Bitwig was developed by ex-Ableton devs, and the layout is incredibly similar. It's a very easy transition compared to coming from a DAW like FL or Logic.
It's also a really attractive offering once you hear about it. It's intuitive, cross-platform, half the price of Ableton for a 3-device lifetime license without geofencing, and the software contains a modular software synth atop which most of the preset instruments are built that is so versatile that its value alone exceeds the price tag of the entire daw.
Big fan. Share your thoughts if you give it a whirl.
I came in here looking for this thread specifically (I can't imagine moving off of Ableton). Thanks for taking a sec to write this up! I might give it a try, just for the synth alone.
You're so welcome!
The soft modular synth is called The Grid, fyi. Little square button on the lower left corner of any instrument lets you see it in Grid form.
Oh, man, and just wait until you find out that you can modulate literally every control in the UI...
Have fun :)
My problem (having moved Win to Lin, Ableton to Bitwig too) is with sound. Latency is one and bad. Getting any sound at all on Bluetooth is also hard, where the latency is even worse. Wish there was a simple "apt install make-audio-work-well-for-daw" I could run on my KDE Ubuntu 24.04...
Hmm. I'm on a stock Arch install and had no latency or quality issues to speak of. Bluetooth works out of the box using `bluez` and `blueman`, though Bluetooth is still Bluetooth, with inherent latency. Some headphones have low-latency modes that can be activated in their respective apps at the expense of ANC/battery life, maybe that'll help?
The apt command you're looking for may be the audio backend, though. `apt install pipewire wireplumber -y`. Won't break your existing pulseaudio setup, but will allow low-latency operations. (I think--I avoid the dumpster fire that is Ubuntu like the plague, so ymmv)
I switched from Windows (11) to Linux (Xubuntu) back in November, mostly because of all the AI stuff I didn't trust. While Linux is working ok for me, I can see why people complain about its not being user-friendly, particularly if you're not a Real Programmer. I've had to go to forums too many times to figure out why this or that doesn't work. The latest is the fact that 'apt update' has stopped working today for Vivaldi--it worked ok yesterday, but I have not been able to get it working after spending an hour or more. (If you're interested, there's a thread here: https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/115133/public-key-is-not-ava....)
Also the fact that some apps update via 'apt', some by 'snap', and if you don't watch out some might update by 'flatpack'. While I think snap is updating automatically, it's hard to tell; some mornings I wake my PC up and only hours later do I discover that there's an update pop-up hidden behind other windows.
Oh, and every day I get a 'system problem' popup that asks if I want to submit a report, but won't tell me what the alleged problem was. I thought only Microsoft did that sort of thing?
I'm also not happy about the malware protection. Apparently the only anti-virus still available is ClamAV (and Kapersky, but for reasons I won't go into I don't trust that). But the gui for ClamAV has not been supported for several years, and running it from the command line is not so straightforward, never mind keeping it updated. (And don't tell me that Linux doesn't need antivirus protection. That's just whistling past the graveyard, particularly if you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks.)
I guess there are distros that are better about some of these things, but life is too short to try all of them, and hope that some bug (like the Vivaldi update thing) doesn't show up months later.
So yes, I'm using Linux, and I'm not planning to go back to Windows. But Linux sure could work better.
Can't help you with AV but otherwise your issues and confusions are all Ubuntu and Canonical and nothing on there is representative of other Linux dists.
Ubuntu is highly opinionated. Great for some/many people but not the best fit for everyone or even an obvious recommendation for newcomers (anymore). For your consideraion: Mint is basically a project that repackages Ubuntu to adress those issues to make it accessible for people not onboard with the Ubuntu idiosyncracies and more casual users who just want their desktop. Should be an easy migration for you.
Your Vivaldi problem comes from that you trusted gpg key for their stable. release repo, and fail verifying package from their archive. repo. Change repo to stable (that's prob what you want) or get the key for archive.
Your Ubuntu experience as told is not representative of desktop Linux experienced outside of Ubuntu. "But Linux sure could work better" is a misleading conclusion to share when that's all you know.
Ok, I may try Mint.
You're right that I mixed up the Vivaldi repo (maybe you are the one who pointed that out on the thread I linked). But even after fixing that, it's still not working---slightly different warning message, but still about gpg.
I recommend Mint over Ubuntu, the snap issue does not exist there.
> And don't tell me that Linux doesn't need antivirus... you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks.
This is a misunderstanding of the threat model of Wifi. Stick to software from the signed repos and SSL. Avoid attachments, keep updated. I've never used antivirus with Linux, despite working on symantec antivirus back in the day.
> particularly if you sometimes log in on public WiFi networks
If you're on Linux and have a firewall, so there are no listening ports, there is no threat from using public wifi. TLS encrypts your connection on ~all websites these days.
I'll just point out that while Ubuntu ships with a firewall, it's not enabled by default, and at least in Windows the firewall is enabled by default. I have since enabled it in Ubuntu.
I've spent a long career getting good at Linux. Real good. But I'm only human. Over the decades, the number of how-tos, wiki pages, Linux distros, Linux kernel source, other programs documentation and source; all of that which I've ingested and used in practice and gotten good at, doesn't hold a candle to AI having been trained on every single last one of them. The solution to your apt/Vivaldi problem is easy: install Claude code, and paste in the error. Hit ctrl-o to gain insight on how it fixes it.
You used to be able to charge a decent hourly consulting rate to do some Linux, but because Claude code is so good at it, there's no market for that anymore.
(for one, your URI is wrong, resulting in apt looking for .../deb/dists/stable/dists/stable/Release )
Right now I'm running a setup with Fedora on my work machine, CachyOS on my laptop, Windows on my home battlestation gaming rig and a Mac Mini M4 I bought for a educational discount. I basically run 3 different kernels, and I feel the same with the author here.
Windows 11 is such a mess that Microsoft thought that they are Apple, so they want to enforce Microsoft Account just like Apple enforces Apple ID to some extent, except this time Microsoft is staking in higher than Apple -- Any active "exploits" that bypasses Microsoft Account got patched not so soon after they are published, and that is what finally intrigued me.
Unfortunately, some of my games runs on Easy Anti-Cheat, and to my knowledge, the Linux switch is opt-in rather than opt-out, most game developers simply didn't put the Linux as a matter on the table even with the introduction of Steam Deck and Steam OS.
I'm planning to wipe my PC after settling some scores, and I still have to go for Windows, but except I will be rolling back to Windows 10 IoT LTSB. Chances are, if I have another drive (which is slowing going into the unobtainium territory, just like RAM)
But, long as I settled that dust, I will bring another PC back to my home. I'm planning to get another CachyOS on that.
With Windows 10 EOL, I had to decide whether to upgrade my laptop to Windows 11 or Linux. I've been a Windows user for decades, but with all the user-hostile bullshit coming out of Microsoft and the degradation of performance on Windows 11, I decided to go with Ubuntu instead.
I'm still on a Windows 11 desktop for the time being, but seriously considering switching there as well. The main thing stopping me is the undeniably better ecosystem on Windows for professional video editing and music production, with no comparable open-source options. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on high quality virtual instruments and effects plugins. But if I can manage to run these under emulation on Linux or find equivalent Linux-native versions, I will happily abandon all Microsoft products at this point.
Recommend to split your music workstation from your personal files machine to get some privacy back. Then run cleanup scripts to pare Windows down to the bone. Also Mint over Ubuntu.
Why Mint over Ubuntu? I like the Ubuntu experience out of the box. It seems to handle high-DPI and per-display UI scaling well, due to Wayland. From what I've read, Mint still uses X11.
They are quite similar but Mint doesn't use snap.
Mint can use X11 or Wayland. I think Cinnamon didn't have Wayland support for a while, but that was fixed a couple of years ago.
Wayland on Mint is still experimental, and will be for years to come. I've yet to hear from somebody using it. Are you the one? ;)
I've tried it and it worked fine. Believe Gnome has most of their user base on it by now so the libs are well exercised.
22.2 gave me problems on a laptop with Nvidia. Didn't try it for 22.3 yet, I'll give it a go then... though I wonder what Gnome libs do for Cinnamon?
It’s built on top. Nvidia is a wildcard however.
Linux since 1996! In chronological order: Slackware, SuSE, DLD, LSF, Gentoo, Ubuntu (starting with 04.10!), eventually Debian 12, now 13.
Back in the days I compiled the kernel myself! :-D
Sure, occasionally I used Windows 3.11, 95, 98se, XP, Vista, 7 and 10, but never as my main system.
I am a software developer, but also do gaming, video production and audio producing. I never got the discussion, Linux works for me for almost 30 years now.
One day, I applied for a new job and was already on the company tour. When they told me that I could only use a Windows computer provided by them, I quickly said, ‘No, thank you,’ and left. The faces they made were truly priceless.
Another day, I applied for another job again and, after some hesitation, unfortunately said yes when they tried to foist a Windows computer on me, because the actual project was really cool. That was the worst year of my career, thanks to restricted Windows 10.
Out of curiosity, back when you were compiling the kernel yourself was it because you wanted to learn it or because you wanted to add more modules to the kernel that didnt exist there by default?
The kernel compilation had a configuration UI where you could select all the drivers you wanted to literally build in. So I selected just what I needed, to save memory, recompiled, waited an hour et voila. Kernel modules came later.
Memory and storage were far more expensive and limited in 1996 than they are today.
Go a few years earlier and you find that Microsoft introduced a boot-time menuconfig system mostly to enable people to select which *drivers* to load because, if you weren't careful, you could wind up leaving too little memory for the game you were trying to run.
That makes sense! I was a kid in the early 90s so I enjoyed "default" Win95/98 without having to have needed to do any sort of fiddling. I was too young to have used earlier versions of that outside of once or twice.
Like the author says:
> Linux is the preferred platform for development
Honestly I'm surprised he was using a non unix system this long, I guess it kinda proves his point that switching costs can seem huge
I'm basically developing on Linux despite running windows. I just set the terminal emulator to open wsl by default, and have VSCode connect to the WSL instance. This also gives you the "native docker" the author mentions, just ignore Docker for Windows exists and install docker in your wsl.
This does have downsides, and the author lists many. It also has some marginal upsides. For example running multiple distros for testing is trivial, and while the Windows file Explorer might be a shitshow that reached its peak over two decades ago it somehow seems to still be leagues ahead of the options in linux gui land. And of course the situation in gaming and content creation used to be way worse just a couple years ago, so for many switching only became viable relatively recently
> somehow seems to still be leagues ahead of the options in linux gui land
Hu... use Dolphin?
That seems to be the preferred path for many devs on Windows - unless you can get your hands on a Mac at work WSL is much better/easier. Most non-software companies may not even offer a Linux laptop.
I'd say even then it depends... for some things WSL+Docker on Windows is better thn certain headaches with Docker on arm Macs.
Which, similarly has more than convinced me to fight for PostgreSQL over MS-SQL everywhere possible.
Both MacOS and Windows with wsl are perfectly fine for development. Especially MacOS.
There's literally nothing special about Linux when it comes to development. And there are quite a few downsides especially when it comes to some specialized tooling because many vendors often only have Windows tools for their devices.
I would have to agree with this. I don't understand people how say developing on Linux is somehow better. I have built C++ software across Windows, macOS and Linux and I can't say one is easier than the other at all. Perhaps it is because of the package management system that makes installing a compiler "easier" than downloading Xcode or downloading/running the Visual Studio installer??
I certainly don't find development tools better on Linux, particularly for C++ debugging. Windows/Visual Studio is the leader in that regard.
I have also done C#, PHP, Java, JS + web development across all 3 and don't see the difference.
I find a Linux host with a development guest OS the best to work in. It allows for snapshots, backups, and sharing development environments. Solution A might need a different environment than Solution B.
Funny enough, the bluetooth stack works better on a bare metal Linux box than a Windows one. Audio starts being played sooner.
> I find a Linux host with a development guest OS the best to work in.
I had a friend who runs Windows host (because of gaming) and Linux as a guest OS for development for the same reasons :)
This depends entirely on your stack and preferred workflow. MacOS is increasingly hostile to powerusers. If you don't mind following their golden path, all is fine, otherwise... I wonder how long before you have to enable a scary "developer mode" to install software outside the app store.
While that's true, I still don't have any issues running any stack on Mac (I've had Java, Python, C++, some Rust, Erlang/Elixir; previously I also had PHP and Ruby)
How is it hostile? Nothing seems to get in the way.
and iTerm on Mac is better than any of the Linux terminals
I guess I'd argue that "it depends on lot on what you mean by development".
For anyone hosting a product on servers (almost everything web related)... there IS something special about linux: It's where your product is going to run in production.
For folks who are doing work in other spaces, especially development that involves vendor provided physical devices: Then yes, I agree with you. Vendor support is almost always better for Windows, and sometimes entirely non-existent otherwise. I'll note this is starting to change, but it's not yet over the hump.
The only place I'd consider macOS as a "perfectly fine" linux alternative is mobile (and mainly because Apple forces it with borderline abusive policy/terms). Otherwise it's just a shittier version of linux on nice hardware, riddled with incompatible tooling, forced emulation problems, and a host of other issues. It's not really even "prettier" anymore.
> For anyone hosting a product on servers (almost everything web related)... there IS something special about linux: It's where your product is going to run in production.
I've been at several corporations and companies where the target OS doesn't matter in the least, and I've had multiple projects on my own where it was the same.
Most of development is so far removed from actual hardware and actual OS, it doesn't matter if your backend is developed on Mac and runs on Linux.
Before MS really started mucking things up the past few years, I was referring to WSL as my favorite Linux distro... MS took a LOT of the rough edges off in terms of development.
I was using WSL for the longest time.
Citation needed. It's not. Linux is only good for hosting. Only very very few large companies gives laptops with Linux to developers.
Linux for desktop is a joke, always have been since at least Slackware 7.1 running at my 486
Did you have a particularly bad experience? Things have changed _a little_ since 1992.
I switched from Windows in 2018 because I was trying to install some Python packages, and it was hours of work to find the specific visual C++ runtimes that were needed to get them working.
On Linux: pip install, done.
Ah, the Microsoft "updates".
After the last "update" the setting for turning windows "game optimization" on and off doesn't work anymore and made factorio unplayable (it MUST be off, otherwise it optimized lag and stuttering and it automatically turns on after every larger update). Since games was the only reason I still had a pc with windows it was time to move. For funzies it tried installing some updates on the last shutdown (it got wiped afterwards).
The only pc I now have with windows on it is a early 00's pc with 98SE on it.
Worth clicking for the "Microslop" logo alone!
Shortcut: https://www.himthe.dev/img/blog/microslop/4.png
Apparently it moved (at least for me): https://m0u9gezmt0.ufs.sh/f/5F1wx5BYZG1wbDc8WftgL2Nrvz9BolE3...
Curious to see how the Favicon will change too!
It's not going to get any better. Microsoft's problem is tech debt. Copilot doesn't pay tech debt it creates it. It will only get worse faster.
Microsoft probably has a problem with tech debt, yes. That is however not the problem. Instead, the product strategy is. And it was bad even before LLMs.
Windows is under 10% of their revenue these days. It’s simply not important to leadership. Just like Xbox - just let it slowly die as you squeeze any last remaining cents out
Windows is a small part of their revenue on purpose, because the OS monopoly enables them to sell and push a lot of their other revenue streams. Windows has always been easy to pirate for the same reason.
But make no mistake, it is very important for Microsoft and leadership, or they wouldn't keep updating it so much and talking about it so much on their keynotes and marketing.
This is true. The constantly changing strategy is what left the wave of debt behind it.
Nah, they have a good strategy. In fact, they have all the strategies.
I think Linux is not quite there as gaming system. Simply due to games' compatibility (and I don't play latest and hottest titles, more like Cities-Skylines/Transport Fever/Anno/Satisfactory etc). Plus to my knowledge NVidia drivers are still an issue.
But for literally anything else I think it's ready. Just browsing? Office work (writing/spreadsheets/presentations/email)? Development? Media production? You're good.
For Linux-curious I'd advise to get a dedicated hardware, like 5/7 year old business machine (Thinkpad or even smth like Dell Latitude), they'll be under $300. Don't do Arch (unless you do that for the sake of being able to install Arch). Instead, get Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Debian, Zorin (the last one specifically for Windows users), or one of many other beginner-friendly distros, and drive it for a bit. Get the software you want, see if it works for you, and if you don't like it, it's all good. If you do, you can gradually move all your stuff to the new machine, or install Linux on your main machine.
That's what I did (quite a) few years ago when I got fed up with Windows 8, took me about a year, but I've been on Mint Mate ever since. My gaming rig is still Windows 11 but all it has is my Steam collection.
My quick rebuttal is that gaming is pretty close to 'there' if you pick a distro that prioritizes it. I run bazzite-DX (nvidia rtx4070) for dev and pleasure and gaming there is ON POINT. I don't play any anti-cheat games, but Cities Skylines, Doom Eternal, Cyberpunk (with full raytracing and HDR), GTA5-Remaster, etc, all run like champs. As of last month, full HDR10 mode started working in chrome and video players too, so hdr videos get those popping brights.
>Plus to my knowledge NVidia drivers are still an issue.
This is an overblown issue. For the most it is a case of installing the proprietary driver package following the instructions for your distro. One more step than AMD which just works, but not really any more difficult than installing another package.
That's not my experience at all. The majority of games, especially on Steam, work out of the box.
I would advise the opposite: Don't get an old box. Take your new box, take a new hard disk, and just install Bazzite (and pretend you don't know anything about Linux, just stick with the defaults).
That didn't work for me. I had my email, documents, some software I used on Windows and files it created (think Photoshop and PSDs). I needed time to find out if I could find similar/equivalent software on Linux, set up new workflows for my work and stuff like that. So I had my primary machine still on Windows and used the secondary to see how all this would work. And then gradually moved all the software, data, and workflows to Linux, until I didn't have anything left that could only work on Windows (well, except games I guess).
As for games, I think a lot of them DO work on Linux but it's easier for me to have dedicates gaming rig on Windows instead of guessing if this new game that I like will work on Linux.
Linux user since about 1998, leaning towards BSDs today. Network engineer + R&D + software dev. Daily driver (desktop) about 2002-2010 - work made it too difficult later. Very occasional gamer. Corporate world will give you a Windows VDI or web cloudy things if need be. Win10 on my laptop out of habit, mostly using terminals + WSL and a browser. Lightroom user, but flexible. None of the other gear I own runs Windows, and the numbers are significant (racks). I run my laptops until they die - the current one is 10y and hasn't died yet but won't run Win11 without going through hoops. Next laptop will not be running Windows outside of a VM.
Win7 was a workhorse, moving to win10 felt unnecessary - and I still remember how the laptop vendor had a system performance tuning app for win7 that you could use to put it into limp mode and have it run on battery for a full day and most of the night. No such thing on win10 on the same hardware. Everything has its time, and hopefully I'll never even get to experience the joy that apparently is win11. The times for software freedom of choice are as good as they have ever been.
I was away from Windows for the past 12 years. Recently we bought a desktop and had to install Wondows on it. I was just shocked by the level of shittification that happened. I can't even find a Solitaire game that is not littered with ads.
I was a big fan of Satya. I thought he had new vision that aligns with the emerging world. I saw some successes he had with cloud, office 365 etc. But when offered to take Altman in, I knew Satya is no longer maintaining the stature of the grand company built by Gates.
You know what's funny about this article.... Back in 2012 I had the same problems with Windows Update and that is what forced me to go to a mac. I've never looked back.
I think I might be the only developer left on this forum, and maybe on the planet, who still uses Microsoft OS daily (for over 30 years). I rarely have issues with it, find it incredibly stable, and have made a lot of money using it.
Not sure why, I just felt the need to post this.
Oh, and just to make myself look even worse, Copilot in VS Code has been an amazing asset in my development.
> Actually, scratch that, I think it really started with the non-consensual updates
MS in general have idea of consent of an average rapist.
Yes/Remind me later is basically norm in their dark UI patterns, it bothered me for months to add copilot button to teams
Same on macOS — pestering me with the Tahoe update notification and the buttons are basically "now" or "later".
I’m getting closer and closer to making the same decision.
I have a Surface Laptop 5 that won’t enable the AI cruft so I got somewhat lucky there.
But the copilot business is AAF.
And now that I use Claude Code in WSL or my Ubuntu server, I’m pretty much done with visual studio development.
Not sure what’s left.
Satya Nadala will have single-handedly destroyed the Windows ecosystem.
Between using macOS at work and macOS at home, I really only had my Windows 10 PC for running games in Steam (and I don't even really game very much. I had originally built it with all new parts for Flight Simulator 2020) so its behavior was already becoming annoying whenever I went to use Windows such as the nagging and lack of consent implied with the "finish setting up your PC" window having "continue" (in a bold button) or whatever and "maybe later" (in a tiny link) as options, for example. (The linked article also pointed this out.)
So after making sure I had everything I wanted to keep copied off that computer, I was going to try out Bazzite, but something made me try out the plain old SteamOS steam deck installer first. To my surprise, it actually worked, but only because I had the exact type of system it expected:
64-bit Intel or AMD CPU. (I have AMD.)
AMD Radeon graphics.
NVMe SSD primary boot drive.
UEFI BIOS support
Even the wifi worked. Well, it didn't work the first time, so I thought it wasn't supported. So I hard wired it with Ethernet, but then I saw the Wifi was working. It's possible it updated something or maybe it just needed a reboot.
If it hadn't worked then Bazzite or something similar would have since it's designed to run Steam but with more driver support.
So my complete Windows history is: 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, XP (set to the classic GUI mode), 7, and finally 11, skipping all the others. Windows 7 was peak.
What's your experience with MSFS2020 under SteamOS?
I don't understand why he thinks all users will use WSL in Windows. I have never ever touched it, and I've developed on Windows for decades (C++/C#/JS/web). It seems like trying to make Windows non-native or some semi-Linux.
I also have never touched Docker on Linux, despite having used that from RedHat 6.0 days (Fedora, Ubuntu LTS now).
Also, he missed out Shotcut as a decent video editor. It recently enabled a 10bit workflow (plus the Frei0r plugins are easy enough to write for it, if you so desire).
I've been using Linux as my main system for ~25 years, but always kept Windows installed for games. On my latest computer I've build 3 years ago, thanks to Steam with Proton, I no longer have Windows and have been happily playing Windows-only games without major issues.
It’s sort of crazy how much changed in the past few years. The only things that don’t run well under wine/proton now I feel like are online games with kernel anticheat and products like Autodesk or Adobe.
There are some commercial Applications that just won't work on wine. But virt-manager makes Qemu/kvm backing images for windows 10 or 11 easy. Freezing Windows in time is an absolute must if you do builds with vendors badly maintained development software.
Dual booting off 2 SSD is good now, and the deciding factor on most of our laptop purchases. Windows is still necessary if you do serious heavy GPU CGI rendering, CAD/CAM work, or Games.
I like Linux when everything is working well, as getting work done with the shell CLI is important for handling "Big" problems. Cloning identical Linux environments across all team workstations also greatly simplifies project support. =3
There’s a lot of odd things said in this article. Like “no more file explorer hanging”, “no more waiting for the start menu to open” - is this something that actually happens to people? Perhaps on very old hardware I could see it, but it’s not my experience at all. Lots of weird emotional and very biased parts to this article.
But it’s just gonna take off here anyway because it’s a switching to Linux article which is like offering HN users free coke.
These are real things and they happen on very good hardware. They are even acknowledge by Microsoft. The explorer issue is from waiting on for a response from network drives that the explorer thinks exists or tries to find. The start menu I'm not sure, but I get the issue from time to time and I think its because of some background process hanging the UI or something.
Waiting to download ads to improve your experience.
Ok cool
Of course those are things that happen to people, why would they make them up?! If anything, your reaction seems like an emotional and biased one, refusing to acknowledge the experiences of others when they conflict with your beliefs.
(and I say all this as a happy Windows user with no plans to move to Linux).
I take your criticism on board. Just because I haven’t experienced them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I only took issue with the way it was worded, like it was a universal experience rather than just one that happens to some people.
Last Thursday windows 11 forced this update on my Acer machine. It caused me BSOD: inaccessible boot device [0], so I had to reformat my machine to get Windows running again. You might think that in 2026 you shouldn't get BSOD, but here we are.
So I am now very wary of any Windows updates, including a Out of Band Update [1], which it is claimed that it resolves some issue. However, since it's never mention whether the Out of Band Update will solve mine, I'm very hesitant to update.
[0]: https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46750358
Windows has always been a bit of a high-maintenance OS. To keep it running well used to consume a lot of time on a weekly/monthly basis. That went down to almost nothing after I switched to Ubuntu LTS a couple of decades ago. Heard it had gotten a bit better in Winland in the recent past but it appears things are going downhill again.
I had the same story but 15 years ago. I was so happy with XP, but Vista was terrible, so I put Ubuntu on my laptop. When 7 came, it became my OS on my desktop. But then it was 8 time. Couldn't bare it. Now it's Linux everywhere, including my sister, parents, grand parents, girlfriend, brother. Linux Mint is perfect for non technical people BTW. I heard good things about Zorin OS as well.
I might be starting down the path of introducing Linux to family members soon. I need to make sure I have enough spare time for the initial 'speed hump' of transition questions...
> I might be starting down the path of introducing Linux to family members soon. I need to make sure I have enough spare time for the initial 'speed hump' of transition questions...
The first couple of months are high touch after the switch. After that it's usually just smooth sailing for years. Much less work support-wise.
Been that way for my family and friends.
> All major browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Brave) have native Linux builds. Full support. No compromises.
Full support ? I thought that the DRM were not the same (e.g. Disney+ and Amazon Prime limited to 480p on Linux which is a scam... At least, I remember having to hack something to use the Windows version of Chrome with WINE in order to get a decent image with Amazon Prime when I got a 6-month offered subscription a few years ago)
That's correct, proper open source Linux is always limited to the weakest tiers of streaming DRM (i.e. fully software based) which usually means you only get low resolution streams. Locked-down Linux derivatives like ChromeOS and Android can support the stronger DRM tiers of course but that's not the same thing.
Widevine on Linux now is 720p. I usually don’t notice, only once in a while that show is not full HD.
720p is OK for me and I also almost don't notice. 480p is really noticeable (and totally unacceptable when you pay for a subscription...).
Had a similar experience in around ~2017 and switched over to Linux. At the time I didn't have the time to build my own and bought a mid-range System76 laptop.
Best computer decision I've ever made. I'm not a heavy gamer so the machine is still running fine. I've only had one time in the last 9 years where I had to drop everything and fix my computer vs Windows where it felt like once a year
Honestly that's what it feels like when something breaks. Linux - you see what's wrong, you fix it, it's done
Windows - you pull your hair out trying to figure out what caused the issue, you fix it, it's back with the next update
I am thankful that so far Microsoft hasn't removed local admin capabilities of Windows, but I dread the day that happens (mainly because it remains the most consistent ways one can deny windows updates).
Because forcing updates down people's throat creates this, and boy do I hate Microsoft's insistence on doing this for drivers, where you get such fun things like Microsoft installing a different AMD GPU driver than the one that AMD gives out (this to be fair is partially to be blamed on AMD for not having just 1 versioning system) so then you have to go into safe mode, DDU, disconnect the internet, install the drivers, turn off automatic driver update in an obscure setting.
Meanwhile on Linux it's literally 1 version that exists in the kernel.
Ever since Wayland added support for changing mouse scroll speed & changing/customizing middle click behavior that is a lot more consistent, I've used Linux to daily drive, especially with immutable distros ensuring even IF an update breaks my system I can rollback.
He doesn't get into why he didn't switch to Apple. Kind of a middle ground - it's still got the maddening things about being from a corporate behemoth, but it's closer to Unix and you can run your audio software there. (I would be using Linux instead of Apple yesterday if it weren't for a single music program I can't live without).
> But honestly I think not being able to launch League of Legends is actually a feature - one final reason to install Linux.
For all of macOS' gaming advantages, it still can't keep an SBF-tier addict off The Rift.
My Windows 11 installation broke down after one of the updates. Now I get "Please reinstall Windows" warning in Windows Update settings. And some error hex code which doesn't really help. I've installed like 5 different apps on this machine and never ran any "tweaking" scripts or apps.
I don't think I ever had to reinstall Windows 2000 but here we are.
Yeah Windows 2000 had countless software test engineers, I was one of them and on my team there were 5000 of us. I stared in tech support in 97 and moved into QA and always filed bugs on behalf of the customer, sadly everyone must code and customers must test. It's just not working out but Microsoft really only cares about Corporate America and Windows running on all the main languages. It's great to have alternatives and I've moved to MacOS after using Windows since 1.0.
Thank you for your service. :D Windows 2000 will always be my favorite version. I got a free copy as a university student and it was just awesome. XP was the era where things changed for the sake of change. In Windows 2000 you could learn where absolutely everything was and it was always there for you.
I still have my install CD, though it has suffered from bit-rot and can't be read properly. :(
Ha! You're very welcome! Ah the good ol' days of CD install media, CD Keys and install times that took hours!
RIP to your install CD!
I think the UI was reasonable and easily understood in 2000. After that it seems links and buttons became interchangeable, and now we end up in the mess where scrollbars may or may not be visible until you try fiddling with the UI etc.
Microsoft has always been crap. It's success is contributed to hostile business practices and familiarity not quality of product. IBM and Gates partnered to have an OS installed on its computers to gain customers. With no actual OS Gates bought 86-DOS from Tim Patterson and partnered with IBM. This created a direct competitor to Apple. Then Gates partnered with all other PC manufacturers to do the same. This paved way for Microsoft to dominate Apple because they weren't tied to any specific hardware. Then came Active Directory to solidify business use. The businesses rolled with it and users learned Windows which deepened home PC use. Every app "just worked" BECAUSE of the popularity and developers directly targeted it since most people used it, not because it was a good product. Their file system NTFS is crap. Their registry is a mess. Everything about Windows is just awful.
macOS has been quite popular in the United States for a long time now (and I suspect it's not so popular in other region not due to product, but price), showing that things can exist without those "features".
I'm not even sure what macOS have for its own since I basically open either the browser or the terminal. I am vaguely aware that Finder exist when I accidentally open it maybe twice a month.
I never advocated for Windows, but I always used it because it "just worked". At a certain point, I realized - as OP had - that I was spending just as much time configuring Windows as I would be spending configuring Linux.
I've moved to Kubuntu and haven't looked back. Proton support is amazing, and Claude Code fixes the doc-diving problem that used to plague Linux. In fact, with Claude, I was able to get such a buttery smooth setup on Kubuntu - Wezterm auto-saving and restorable sessions (even with multiple windows), a working fading background switcher with history, automounting drives and vhdx images on startup - and these are all relatively simple things, but they were near-frictionless to set up and they don't break on a random Tuesday. I love it and would recommend anyone who is on Windows to reconsider.
Everyone are very unhappy with Windows 11. They kind of were OK with Windows 10. It's continuing the same old cycle. Windows 12 they will make hopefully things tolerable again..
I use Windows to play some games. I remember dual booting on 2000s -- my grub entry for Windows was called "WOW Client".
It seems to be, for most users who switch, that the driver is if they are primarily a consumer or creator. Unix systems have always been a preferred platform for some creators, but this effect seems to be multiplying as the focus for Windows become less and less creator friendly. Yeah, if you are a gamer and watch YouTube videos, then your path to least resistance is Windows; but if you are a software developer, web developer, music editor, video editor, et al... the ability to control, easily automate, and flexibility of your environment (not to mention the reduced system resources) become a huge advantage. There are reasons why MOST creators are moving away from Windows... and most consumers are becoming more and more comfortable with tablets and Chromebooks.
Many years ago before I stopped using Windows and switched back to NetBSD (I had originally used it on the VAX), I used Cygwin and later MSYS on Windows in the process of moving back to UNIX
I was not interested in graphical programs, I only wanted a UNIX shell and standard UNIX utilities
I recently received a used computer with pre-installed Windows 10 Home for personal use so I will be experimenting with it offline^1
I used Windows Services for UNIX ("SFU") on work computers back in the day to compile programs I wrote for UNIX. I am curious about using "WSL" in a similar way
NetBSD is still favorite OS but I use Linux the most
1. I can boot this computer from USB stick so I will also use it to run NetBSD from RAM
My main operating system is Linux since 2005 or so, or actually late 2004. I still use Win10 on my laptop, for various reasons; in part to test java code and ruby code on windows, in part due to elderly relatives.
Win11 really annoyed many users though. That's actually interesting, since Microsoft committed to it yet it gets harder for Microsoft to retain the people. Linux is unfortunately way too complex to really break the desktop system (and no, Wayland, GNOME, KDE, are not going to change any of that either), but if it were, Microsoft would probably have lost its de-facto monopoly already. Either way it is interesting how much people hate Win11. Microsoft really committed to driving down the cliff here.
It's funny, but I had my grandmother on Linux for about a long while before she passed... Wine managed to run the 3 Windows 9x era games games she was still playing into the 2010's (where real Windows wouldn't) and her browser/email. I wasn't even able to do that for myself. All I had to do was run updates for her every few months (because she didn't) and the one time she had a hardware failure, I'm the one who fixed it.
In the end, I'd say for most people, who aren't their own computer admins/repair anyway... Linux is probably fine. Since most people don't use more than the browser for the most part.
My other grandmother was on a docked Chromebook after the 5th time I had to clean malware off her computer, and she didn't need any windows apps anymore... she couldn't help but click on the "you might have a virus" ads.
For a while when I bought new computer (recently Intel NUC), I'd just keep the Windows installed there in case I needed it and I'd dualboot into Linux. More recently I just reflash the whole ssd with Debian and I haven't looked back. Interestingly enough I also have older Macbook Pro from 2015 that I also installed clean Debian on and it's been working amazingly well too. The only thing that would need any patching is the camera, but I don't use it. Everything else worked out of the box - keyboard backlight with nice UI controls in GNOME, LCD brightness, sound, bluetooth, etc.
> Adobe Suite: Runs via Winboat. Far from perfect (no video acceleration, laggy at times), but functional
That’s not acceptable to most professionals and one of the things holding me back on a Mac.
Adobe has so many different cross-platform layers that a solution like Proton may never be viable, practically speaking.
For Photoshop alone I remember reading that they still have some custom MacApp Pascal UI code, along with HTML/CSS/JS rendered by WebKit. And there used to be a flavor of Flash as well in mix, to name a few. Lightroom had its own custom Lua UI binding.
The only hope for fast and reliable Adobe-apps-on-Linux IMO is through a Windows VM with GPU pass-through and a focus on making that as easily and seamless as possible.
> The only hope for fast and reliable Adobe-apps-on-Linux IMO is through a Windows VM with GPU pass-through and a focus on making that as easily and seamless as possible.
I've heard of people doing this, do they?
I'm so desperate for Premiere, even 6+ years after switching OSes. Resolve won't install on Fedora (???), our all-Flatpak future cannot get here soon enough...
It’s possible but I’ve never used it as a daily driver.
One thing that scares me is that Adobe apps are already buggy on their own officially supported platforms. If I encountered a glitch, I’d always have in the back of my mind “is it because of my crazy set up or is it their fault?”
I remember reading an article many years ago about product management being like being a parent, and there being a latter point where you need to let the product go and admit it's done. Windows is clearly there, and Microsoft are doing a terrible job of it. Yes, it's less relevant than it's ever been, but it's still vastly widely deployed, earns money, and delivers other cash cows (like Office) - all they have to do is do the basic stuff to keep it going and not mess it up, but somehow that is not what's happening. Wild.
He's a musician, he's switched to Bitwig. Ok, but what about VSTs? I have a collection of instruments I can't leave behind, many are NI, so I'm currently forced to use Windows or Mac.
NI recently filed for bankruptcy! This means that the licence server will probably be shut down at some point. Take the opportunity now. :-P I've been using Bitwig for two years now. And already produced a complete album with success. Next album is already following. :-) Many of Bitwig's own plugins are very good, and there are now top-notch native VSTs for Linux! Alternatively, there is yabridge for running Win VSTs.
Great Linux VST manufacturers: U-he, DDMF, Toneboosters, TAL, Bluelabs, etc.
And more, more, more native plugins: https://linuxmusic.rocks/
If the license server goes down I'll just pirate them, I guess. The point is that I can't really throw aways years of investment because Windows sucks. The other important lesson is: if they have a licensing server, it's OK to pirate them from the start.
I understand, but probably at some point the pain may be higher then your investment...
"All major browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Brave) have native Linux builds. Full support. No compromises."
This is kind of true. It depends on whether you're doing Serious Stuff on MICROS~1 365 and probably other similar services, because if you for example want to do a download of email or files or whatever from an account in the compliance portal, then they force you to use Edge on Windows. There's a browser module that can only run in that context, probably due to some deep and obscene integration between Edge for Windows and the operating system, plus they get users.
Other than that I agree with the article. Windows has been way suckier than mainstream Linux distributions for a long, long time. Yes, there might be some driver or configuration issues sometimes, but it doesn't crash, it doesn't force system upgrade reboots, and Windows still has driver issues.
Once set up a Linux system tends to just tick along for years, unless you do something weird, which is more likely under Linux because you'll probably let curiosity bring you around more than it easily can under Windows and you'll learn to do stuff that carries more risk than what a regular user can under Windows.
And the nice part is that it is very rare that you actually, terminally brick your Linux. There is almost always some forum thread that tells you the steps to bring it back up again, whereas MICROS~1 support threads commonly consist of 'hello, did you try to reboot? if it didn't work, try reinstalling'.
I switched my parents to linux during the gnome 2 days and have given them a consistent environment ever since (kept them on mate).
It is true, they could not do this themselves and sometimes my mom can test my patience, but this is the way if you can do it. (Hint: get a remote desktop with shared view working first :).
Really, the stronghold for windows is their office suite (other family require Word/Excel for work), enterprise domain integration (work to home pc familiarity), and, to a weaker extent, gaming. Gaming is why I still keep an install of windows on my pc.
The only tools pinning me to Windows were photo editing apps (Capture One, Adobe), and some music apps (Reason, a whole bunch of other apps) that I barely used. Cut over to Debian about 4 years ago when my laptop started having thermal issues and Covid encouraged me to buy a tower desktop machine. Haven't looked back, it's been so much more productive. The strange and toxic-to-me design choices in the Win11 UI helped motivate the rapid transition.
The only thing that's caused any issue is power management, I'm fairly sure it's not optimal, but it's still better than Win11. That's purely down to lack of effort on my part, and basically setting it for max performance because it's not important to me for a desktop machine. Everything (and I mean everything - sound, video, wifi, bluetooth) else is 100% out of the box working on mid-range commodity hardware, albeit with excessive RAM for my needs. Some of it is a bit clumsy looking in places, but it did look weird on Windows too with some of the apps.
When I did have trouble, it was not like I could get support from Microsoft as the community forum is a joke, but with Linux at least I stand a fighting chance of working around any potential problems.
Is there anything on Windows I miss? No.
Is there anything on Mac that I miss? Yes, there's a few things that I like about MacOS (pre-glass) but I have a MacBook Air for those which is good for occasional use but not as a daily driver.
FYI: latest Photoshop should work on Wine as of this week, but of course that situation may be too subject to change for someone's main source of income.
It's still not quite there yet, for me. A lot of older games (which I'm a big fan of) won't run well or at all - and support for Nvidia is still not great.
If I could get within even 10% of the performance I get on Windows, and know I could safely choose to play some old 2000's game or something that just released just fine, I really wouldn't mind. But it feels like a roulette wheel and some important game I wanted to play just may not work, or may run terribly.
Which games?
For older games: MechWarrior 3 and 4 (plus expansions). Thief 1+2. Freespace 2. Gothic 1+2. Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.
But in general, I play a lot of weirder, niche games that just don't get a lot of traction for community fixes and so on.
My wife was complaining about her Windows 11 laptop crashing. I tried everything and even did fresh installs. Still crashing (and honestly pretty slow). I gave up on Windows and installed Ubuntu and Chromium for her. She can instagram, facebook, save her memes, and its all fast. No crashes. She's a happy camper now. I think a lot of (even) non technical people would like Linux a lot more than they realize if they gave it a shot.
>Also, is it weird that I still remember the specs of my first computer, 22 years later?
Only weird because you were only 6 years old. My first computer was an IBM XT clone, with the full 640k of RAM, a 30 MB harddrive, 5 1/4" floppy drive, Hercules graphics and the amber-colored screen. Also had the turbo button that took it from 4.77 MHz to 10 MHz. Ran DOS v3.3 for a while but eventually upgraded to v5.0.
I'll copy my comment on another article here:
2025 has had some of the biggest Linux hype in recent times:
- Windows 10 went EOL and triggered a wave of people moving to Linux to escape Windows 11
- DHH's adventures in Linux inspired a lot of people (including some popular coding streamers/YouTubers) to try Linux
- Pewdiepie made multiple videos about switching to Linux and selfhosting
- Bazzite reported serving 1 PB of downloads in one month
- Zorin reported 1M downloads of ZorinOS 18 in one month and crossed the 2M threshold in under 3 months
- I personally recall seeing a number of articles from various media outlets of writers trying Linux and being pretty impressed with how good it was
- And don't forget Valve announced the Steam Machine and Steam Frame, which will both run Linux and have a ton of hype around them
In fact, I think that we will look back in 5 or 10 years and point at 2025 as the turning point for Linux on the desktop.
> Windows 10 went EOL
Kinda. But LTSC IoT is still on until 2032.
Another very important feature which does not get mentioned enough is Ubuntu launching Ubuntu Pro in 2022 which has an ordinary-user-affordable support option where $150 a year gets you what they call "full support" with a four hour ticket response time on weekdays. My time is way too valuable to deal with the driver problems Linux always has, community support is often best described as "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" -- I once had a problem with a peripheral and people directed me to the Arch Wiki page that I wrote. I stopped using Linux as my main eight years ago and have been on W10/WSL since. I am considering Linux main in May when I get my new laptop if there's commercial support backing me up. I reached out to them with my list of current hardware and they didn't reply yet :( which doesn't bode well.
Example: Thunderbolt networking. Is there a kernel module for it? Yes. Is there experience with it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That is exactly why I ditched Microsoft for Mac thirty years ago. I’ve never looked back or regretted leaving MSFT during my "formative" years; in fact, I’m glad I did. That said, it’s great to see Linux stay the course and build a real alternative for PC users.
I’ve always wanted to try running Linux on one of my Macs, but I never seem to find the time to actually explore it. One of these days...
I just want to mention that most apps that would be laggy on Wine just work via https://flathub.org/en/apps/ru.linux_gaming.PortProton. Install PortProton double click .exe install app and off you go.
- xTool Studio - for laser engraver - ProppFrexx ONAIR - professional radio station
Past week I got to know about InputActions [0] so I installed Kubuntu 25.10 to test it, and it is very promising. Linux never had a proper mouse gesture support, and I won't go into details, but this was one of the three dealbreakers for me. The other one was a Windows-only app which ran so sluggishly on all previous tests I've made over the years, but with Wine 11 the app is just as good and fast as on Windows. Though I first need to populate the registry with an icon set. But now with AI this can be easily automated (letting it write a script I then run). The third is some custom electron-based launcher which is heavily Windows-customized, which I will need to migrate to Linux, but also this should be easy with AI.
For the first time I feel like there is a real path for me to switch to Linux, and it's about time!
[0] https://github.com/taj-ny/InputActions
They lost me at Vista lol
In all honesty, it was easy for me to switch to Linux because I was always more interested in the computer itself rather than what useful things I could do with it, so I actually never missed a particular application. I also was more interested in making a game run in Wine with maximum effort rather than actually playing it (I did play countless hours of World of Warcraft though...)
>"If you're always finding the next reason not to switch, you're not looking for solutions, you're looking for excuses to stay complacent."
No, my friend. It is not the reason. I have over 50 apps installed, many of which are corporate applications, such as Teams and other Microsoft products. VMwaresing VMWare and WSL foLinux distributionsnux distros. The other things that Linux is missing are ShareX (has flameshot I know), no WhatsApp (PWA might work, but it is a hack). Google Drive that I use to share my KeePass databases (no GDrive on Linux afaik). And gaming is not 100% with linux becuase of anti-cheat (author mentions it).
The only thing stopping me from switching to Linux entirely is that I must find a way to port all of these without compromises. Reinstalling Windows is one thing; changing OS types is another. We all want to be Mr. Robots, but reality is different. It is like moving to a new house. Exciting but sucks.
I tried to make this shift, but managed to somehow brick Linux Mint, so now I'm back on Windows for now...
I was already not very impressed when I attempted to okay a video file, and VLC told me I didn't have the right codec installed, and I had to run a shell command to get the codec... I have to open a shell to watch a common video file?
But then while attempting to install some packages to install Steam (which I also needed shell commands for...), I updated some kernel package, as instructed, rebooted my machine, and now Mint just sits there doing nothing right after I get through the bootloader. Can't seem to run any commands to recover either.
Bricking Mint is annoying, but I was much more astonished that I saw so many people hold up Mint as this beacon of user friendly Linux distros, but to do even the most basic things, I had to start running commands on the shell. That is NOT user friendly. I'll probably try again soon, but I'm pretty disappointed in my first experience.
No such thing as brick when you have a “live drive” available. Reinstall and be up again in a half hour.
The codec issues are caused by the companies that make them, not a free operating system. Next time download an open codec movie or install from the “store” GUI.
You're slightly missing the point. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter to me, the end user, whose fault it is that my OS doesn't have codecs.
The problem is that when doing an extremely basic operation that works on every system I've used before, it doesn't work, and the most readily available advice on how to resolve the issue tells me to run commands. Regardless of the reasons why it is that way, it just simply isn't user friendly.
Everyone has to balance how much pain they get on Windows from the restarts, slowness, updates, etc versus how much pain they get from occasionally having to run some command in terminal window. I get your points about there being rough edges - the good thing is that Linux is a very good system for fixing Linux issues. Everything is tailored for that :)
Learning the basics of linux can be very powerful and now with AIs you can get essentially anything done just by asking the AI to give you the right commands. Linux is friendlier to be fixed by AI suggestions, which I think will actually be the big difference this year.
And to be fair, I'm not a fan of Linux Mint. I much more prefer Debian or Fedora with clean GNOME.
There are tradeoffs in life, not perfection. Bondage vs. convenience, your choice.
Having to install codecs once every few years is a tiny inconvenience compared to the dystopia offered elsewhere. I also run commands on Win and Mac all the time to fix things. For example Windows wastes tens of gigabytes of space unless you run a couple of inscrutable commands to free it.
Let me be clear, I am making only one very specific argument: Linux Mint is not as user friendly as people say. I'm not putting any blame on anyone for it not being user friendly, I am not saying that Mint must be a perfect OS replacement, I'm not saying that it makes Mint a bad OS, etc.. I'm only saying that it's not that user friendly, despite what many people say.
Yes, and I’m saying none of them are, though occasionally it’s luck of the draw. The genius bar exists for a reason, and not only for broken hardware. If you paid for a Linux expert to help it would be similarly easy.
I can echo problems with Mint.
Currently using https://getaurora.dev which is basically fedora + kde but curated by people that actually care. So codecs are preinstalled, and other sensible defaults out of the box which makes sense as its in the same family as bazzite (without the gaming focus).
I might actually check that out, that sounds right up my alley
I think the steam thing was solved some years ago after being featured on LTT.
I have always used Linux personally, only work made me use Windows and Mac (controlled endpoints) for the past 20 years. For 4 years I have my own company, 100% Linux.
I know that some things are not as nice on Linux (ie you need to do MS365 in a browser for example, and MS365 files from a NAS in OnlyOffice is not great, etc). But other than that, I just love living in Gnome. What more do you need that just a clean desktop with some tiling, some virtual desktops, a clock, battery indicator and windows with your stuff? I don't even know. I like that I can set up Linux in 10 min.
I recently set up a Windows 11 machine for a neighbor, it took so long! And it offered dozens of things I didn't want, to the point that I began feeling a bit nervous towards my neighbor (no you don't need that, no not that, no that's just tracking, no why would you want your desktop in the cloud?). Then when finished... it wasn't finished, I need printer drivers, an HP package with drivers and stuff for the BIOS etc etc etc. So much time.
Every company I’ve worked at has used Google Docs anyway so the experience for me is the same on Linux. What’s so appealing about the classic Office suite?
Well, it's mostly annoying if people store office docs on some samba share instead of in SharePoint/Teams. Also Teams has issues on Firefox, and sometimes also in Chromium. But overall works well enough (even with my AirPods on Linux). Things like drawing in PowerPoint in the Browser have become significantly better over the last year, before that I avoided it like the plaque. Whats missing in MS365 online is numbered captions for figures (unforgivable!), or reference management. That just really annoying if people use those features. Also, I worked in an org still on Office 2019 but mixed it with MS365, that also lead to lot of pain. It's papercuts mostly, nothing fatal.
I finally installed Windows 11 last year so I could use Wifi 6E. Other than that, it is certainly a downgrade. With some debloating and ExplorerPatcher, its mostly the same as Windows 10 now, but I'm praying that an update wont brick my install. Thankfully the latest forced feature update didn't affect me.
The two things I find unacceptable are no local accounts and non consensual reboots. The latter may need legislation. They don’t even notify you that it happened. They try to restart apps and put things back the way they were but you can still tell that your house was broken into by the missing data that wasn’t saved.
You could say they broke the window(s)
Honestly Linux has been so much easier to use since Claude / codex came out. Now I don't need to remember esoteric commands or scroll old forums to fix issues, Claude does it all for me.
Been using ubuntu + regolith as my daily driver for over a year now and haven't needed to use windows for anything. Almost all games all work well on Linux now too.
One of the things I like most about CachyOS is that the configuration is all just in text files, one of the things I like least is that I am never quite sure whether to modify the systemd unit settings that are usually in /usr/lib somewhere, the app settings in /etc or the personal configs in ~/.config. For packages that I am unfamiliar with, I usually end up trying all three locations until I notice that my changes seem to stick.
The installer also completely broke the Windows partition that came with the workstation even though I was planning on dual booting, but oh well, no great loss there.
Other than that, there are some small conveniences and apps that I miss from MacOS (the mac calendar and mail apps are just so nice!) but the Niri window manager is just so amazing that at this point I don't think there's anything that could make me switch back.
I was a big fan of windows and I am still currently using it but recently, I am getting weird problems, crashes, frozen laptop etc. So right now, after 23 years later, I decided to switch MacOS. I've used it before but couldn't adapt because I was efficiently using windows with no-alternatives tools in MacOS. But anymore, Windows is no longer usable, it's unbearable.
There was a post here a while back saying that Microsoft will eventually switch to Linux instead of maintaining Windows. Given all the negativity around Windows this seems more and more likely (I haven’t used Windows myself for over 20 years so I have no idea what its like now. Last time I used it, it was XP)
Unlikely but growing as profit dwindles. Previously it was unfathomable that Apple would offer RISC/Unix Workstations, or MS would jettison IE.
This is a simultaneously insane yet deeply delightful concept. Does anyone have the link to that discussion?
This is the discussion I was referring to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46673264
If Microsoft vibe codes a Linux distro and calls it Windows 360 Copilot, I’m on board with the conspiracy theory that the Hadron Collider broke reality
Except the problem is their UX more than the kernel itself. I don't see them keeping Gnome or KDE as a desktop UI even if they did fully adopt Linux for desktop usage.
MS should really just buckle down, finish simplifying the UI and make it consistent again... the last time it was mostly consistent was Windows 7, and even then.
I'm willing to bet that System76 gets COSMIC to the level that Win7 reached faster than MS can turn anything around in terms of Windows at this point.
So happy to see so many new Linux users as a long time user and developer for the platform. I want to welcome anyone and PLEASE feel free to use AI to make awesome stuff or solve problems. The FOSS community is still adapting to the new influx of developers and tools, vibe coders, etc.
Be cautious with running commands or making package changes based on suggestions from AI tools. Ask clarifying questions and it may realize doing so would either break your system or be attempting to vastly modify it.
My advice is get Docker installed and do most of your stuff in there. If you mess up and expose a Postgres container it will get hacked, but not escape the container, whereas if you install Postgres as a system package and make that same mistake you will be fully owned.
> I installed CachyOS, a performance-focused Arch-based distribution
Ooph. It's frustrating to see the community starting (again) to get purchase in public mind share at exactly the moment when it's least prepared to accept new users.
The Linux desktop right now is a wreck. EVERYONE has their own distro, EVERYONE has their own opinions and customizations, and so everyone is being pulled in like 72 different directions when they show up with search terms for "How do I install Linux?"
For a while, 15-ish years ago, the answer was "Just Install Ubuntu". And that was great! No one was shocked. Those of us with nerd proclivities and strong opinions knew how to install what we wanted instead. But everyone else just pulled from Canonical, a reasonably big and reasonably funded organization with the bandwidth to handle that kind of support.
Now? CachyOS. Yikes.
I totally get that. But I read about it, and that custom kernel with the BORE scheduler really caught my eye, especially for music & gaming.
I know a lot of people suffer from shiny object syndrome, and to some extent I do too (realistically something like Ubuntu or Fedora would have served me well), but it is what it is.
It's not anything about CachyOS in particular, frankly I don't know it and I'm sure it's fine. It's that the culture of "I'll grab this known-good base and tweak it, then advertise it to the world as the next best thing" is just toxic for Regular People wanting to learn about stuff.
Imagine if you were trying to, I dunno, introduce your friend to Minecraft. And instead of the base game someone handed you a menu of crazy modlists. Is that representative of the feature set you think they're looking for in a casual game?
People coming to Linux are coming from a culture of "I've used MacOS or Windows for years and know how it works, where's the browser?". They're very much NOT looking for experimental kernel scheduler implementations!
There are at least a dozen very stable and reliable distros with decades of history and support in addition to the cool new “hey guys I made a OS!” types.
> There are at least a dozen very stable and reliable distros
Exactly. "WTF?! There are a dozen distributions?!" Users love customization and choice when they understand it. No one wants to be confused. The Linux desktop world is a confusing mess right now.
Also note that the distinction between "very stable and reliable" and "hey guys I made a OS!" is only obvious to people who know how the distro is put together.
But that's the point. Choice and customization. It's the natural result of FOSS and the as-designed modularity of the Linux ecosystem.
Exploring popular options and finding what works for you is easier than it has ever been, and fun too. The difference between Linux today and the Linux of old is that for most setups, all the pieces you choose can fit together nicely and "just work." Despite all the different flavors and variations and distributions and desktop environments and window managers and the like, pretty much every popular distro uses a recent or near recent version of the monolithic Linux kernel + system-d, so all the important stuff is more or less the same (with tweaks here or there.)
I use it for a month as daily driver. For Linux it is ok.
I made the same switch but all linux always feels slightly jank. I think Macos is the best premium decoupling from Winblows, but that comes with its own ecosystem lock in. I use all three equally daily and it just drives me insane. Lots of games on Windows ONLY work on windows due to anti cheat. Ie BattleField 6.... MacOs Gaming is non existent and any attempt with say wine/parallels or whatever brings you back to windows.... Linux / PopOS / Cosmic is so close to being there but the gaming restrictions takes you back to Windows.. I tried the whole WSL2 but lots of apps need so much tuning to work properly.. Ie android studio needs to be specially configured to use the WSL2 paths and it gets broken fast.
Over the years I feel they're all janky in different ways. That being said, especially lately the Windows and MacOS UX changes are getting less thoughtful and the design vs usability scale is going all the way to the design end.
Which would almost be unfortunate, but Battlefield 6 is the same slop as 2042 with a fanservice texture pack on top. You can play BF4, BF2, Bad Company, Arma 2/3/Reforger, and even DCS World without issue on Linux - why are you spending $70 to install a rootkit for a game you'll put 20 hours into, tops?
Giving up Windows pushed me to play better games and stay off the unhealthy AAA release cycle that has strangled innovation for years. If I was still playing Rainbow Six Siege then I wouldn't know how to cold-start an F-16 blk. 50.
I mean next on list is Escape From Tarkov.. the list goes on. its more than just Battlefield 6, theres tons of games that require a anti cheat solution for linux..
Escape From Tarkov doesn't have functional anticheat on Windows. Most people either play EFT against bots (which is a $10 DLC) or modded SPT (which is free and works on Linux). Even livestreamers are struggling to play a match without cheaters post 1.0 release, you might as well play Anomaly EFP.
There's definitely a list of games that don't work; they're usually outnumbered 10:1 by better titles. I haven't booted into Windows for 7 years, there's just not many new releases worth the effort.
I really wish linux had a decent answer for DRM-protected VST plugins. Yes you can run stuff in WINE but I need to be able to use iLok and the bullshit DRM systems for about a dozen other publishers.
I am so glad that gaming on linux is viable. I wish my music production workflows were too.
Put that on a dedicated machine and move everything else, especially your personal files, over for privacy reasons.
I know, but I really like gaming on the music production speakers! Having one computer that does both is too much fun
Gaming doesn’t sound like it needs to be on the more private computer.
I can't believe how many times I have to click "decline" now to install Windows 11.
Office 365? no thanks. How about a cheaper version? No thanks. Did you know you could use it for free. Okay. How about XBox. No! Am I forgetting one?
All that before I can even use the computer. Ridiculous.
Just saw a video on YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwt9AiItqU - starts at 3:25) that talked about the windows experience in the present day and I totally forgot about booting up and magically having software appear I never asked for due to some partnerships Microsoft made. I've been on Mac for 16 years/iPhone for 10 years and have never looked back. The most annoying thing about Apple is when the OS updates and suddenly you have a different experience like liquid glass. But like all things I usually get used to it after about a week and most of the times I see the benefits (in this case, even more screen real estate).
I'm an Apple guy through and through, but I am in Georgia Techs OMSCS program. For some of the classes, you need to use a VM that doesn't play nicely with Apple Silicon. So I went over to Microcenter and picked up a cheap PC with Windows. I loathe using it, even if I am in the VM the whole time. I'm amazed at the amount of ads that pop up and for a while, sound just didn't work. Like not with headphones or just out of the normal speakers until eventually a random update fixed it. I get not wanting to be in the Apple ecosystem, but at this point in time I don't know why you would want Windows and not go for Linux.
I think Windows 11 would have had much more consumer buy-in in the early days if they would have at least extended non-OEM support back to the Skylake generation, if not further, which it looks like it would have be easy to do, since it ran just fine on much older machines. I didn't object to them making TPM 2.0 mandatory for new OEM builds, just to the making it mandatory for people wanting to upgrade to it.
Of course, then the ads and other broken-ness got a lot worse. But people might put up with that more if they had upgraded to Windows 11 years ago instead of just looking at doing it now that Windows 10 support has ended.
I'm not against someone's preferences, but this looks like an anecdotal story. Windows, as much as it's hated here, still works fine for the vast majority of people. What's more, you have higher risk of having problems when running Linux.
I have to disagree here.
There's an aphorism that I like to use every time someone tells me that Windows is the easy choice: Windows makes accomplishing easy tasks easy, and hard tasks impossible.
To this day and for the past 20 years, every time I go back to my parents' house, it's Windows tech support time. Every time, I have to go through the same routine of cleaning up all sorts of crap that make their computer slow to a crawl, even when I purposely created non privileged accounts for them. Every time, the same ritual: diagnose why the printer stopped working, why apps look pixelated, why some sites stopped working.
So, it works for my parents, and possibly works for the vast majority of people, because it has created this ecosystem where these users either depend on folks like me, or have to pay up at the repair shop. And somehow, something as simple as not breaking a critical component during an update, or prevent users from installing harmful stuff, has not been addressed properly. And that's without mentioning what Microsoft does that's very much anti-consumer, like stuffing the consumer versions of the OS with ads.
Kind of interesting after using Manjaro recently, I had stayed away from Ubuntu for a while and started researching to see if it had gotten any better. I found a bunch of blog and reddit posts about how Linux sucks so bad and how much superior Windows and MacOS are.
Only to see this article today. lol
I guess at this point, whatever works for you and your situation is what you should use and ignore all the static. I use Linux for the majority of my dev work, but have the inability to move off Adobe products for the photo and video processing work I do. Something I've found that Linux doesn't compete very well with MS and Apple. I would love to finally get off of one or the other, but I have one foot in each because they both excel in different areas.
I’m kind of curious why Adobe hasn’t gone all-in on Linux by now. IIRC Adobe apps were built on cross-platform tooling like Java (InDesign) and AIR (all the CS UI, and then the underpinnings in C++).
I guess Adobe doesn't exactly have much to win by Windows failing, but their inaction does mean the open source alternatives will continue to get better, and that will hurt them.
Every few years someone posts the same thing in the Adobe forums which then piss off the moderators and Adobe "experts". They continue to say the same thing which makes zero sense.
I'm paraphrasing here but its something along the lines of: "Linux users are open source people and expect everything for free. They'll never pay for our products, so we see no need to port them for Linux users because so few of them would be willing to pay for our products."
A lot of other comments are cheeky ones like, "Adobe is already on a Linux OS, its called MacOS." - rolls eyes-
And you are correct, the OSS alternatives are getting better and closing the gap, but they're just not there yet - but I hold out hope they will be one day.
I think Linux adoption will rapidly grow with the adoption of LLMs.
Esoteric errors are now resolvable with a simple query. Often with just a few cut and paste commands.
This improves the rough edges to a point that Linux is now a reasonable option for a larger cohort of previously unfeasible users.
1. This is not a likely effect of LLM adoption.
2. Linux is already to the point of giving you about as many esoteric errors as Windows or macOS will.
People don't switch either because they are comfortable where they are and don't want to put forth the effort of changing their OS, or they are afraid of outdated criticism of Linux Desktops being error-filled nightmares.
My feeling is that I consistently find on-point solutions for my Linux problems with a quick search. However if my Windows install gets in trouble my search will yield some DISM.exe invocation which doesn't help at all. A bit anecdotal, but this is my experience. I've always been able to fix my Linux installs.
1. It is. It makes me more likely to use Linux, and I'm not that far from the average. On Reddit r/gaming I've seen people who literally made the step and say exactly this "I installed Linux and when I can't figure something out I ask an LLM and it has done a great job so far".
It's happening right now. Maybe you're so opposed to the concept that you hate to imagine it, but it's the reality.
> or they are afraid of outdated criticism of Linux Desktops being error-filled nightmares
Your concept of people installing Linux is behind because even just over the last 12 months things have changed a lot.
I also think LLMs are well suited to find niche strange bugs way quicker. User posts esoteric error on the issues page. LLM with proper context may converge quickly, allowing the programmer to implement a fix.
Windows UI has also gotten progressively more ugly, buggy and laggy. From a cursory glance, Win 11 looks a lot cleaner than Win 10/8/7, but just opening the Start Menu is a chore. Rather than fix the underlying issue, Microsoft started pre-rendering the File Explorer in memory to improve launch times. It might've started with letting go of their QA team, but the engineering culture there seems completely broken and clueless.
I'm currently running Fedora on my gaming laptop, and while I do suffer some loss in FPS, it is relatively close to Windows and seems to be getting better.
For literally decades we've hoped that Linux will get like Windows in some crucial areas like sleep and hibernations support for laptops, supported first-party drivers, correct and reliable multi-monitor setups, games, etc. Never ever could I imagine that Linux parity, which I'd like to argue is closer than ever before, would be reached by Windows getting worse in exactly those areas we, the Linux freaks, got told to get Windows for -- sleep not working, graphics drivers bringing whole systems down, incoherent configuration etc. Only games got better and we have to thank Valve for that.
On a modern laptop without S3 sleep, it works better for me on Linux than on Windows currently. So at least there's that.
I just hope that more people are forced into this! I understand that the transition, learning path can be daunting but once someone's head gets the mindset on a Unix OS there is basically no turning back.
I understand the frustration when things don’t just work. Also I find it kind of funny when people act like Linux just solved all their problems, despite recurring driver and dependency issues, compatibility problems, etc. These all get hand-waved somehow because it’s not Linux’s “fault” I suppose? Good for the author but the opportunity cost of moving to Linux alone is prohibitive based on the comments I see here, my own experience notwithstanding…
I agree with you that there's some friction involved and a bunch of trade-offs.
The thing is that I absolutely lost it, because of the bugs and the ads, and just wanted something reliable that doesn't nag me all the time.
I know that other people's linux experience may be radically different due to different hardware, so I'll consider myself lucky it all worked out.
> despite recurring driver and dependency issues, compatibility problems, etc
Citation needed.
Uncited, I would posit that those complaints haven't really been a thing for at least a couple of decades. And any issues have been far less than in Winland :)
Just read the other comments in this thread, all the evidence you need is in plain sight.
Conversely, I’ve been on windows 11 for work for a few years now with zero issues.
For me I made the switch in 1998 when Windows Me was so terrible it was unusble. I went to CompUSA and found this cool box of cd roms with a lizard logo - suse linux and I was done with MS forever (except at work).
I always like to chime in on these things that I've been a delighted Arch user for about a year now, for similar reasons. Took a lot of setup, but it's dialed now and just works. My computer belongs to me again for the first time in years.
I should really do more to evangelize. It's not ok to use an OS monopoly to degrade and squeeze your users' often primary career and creative tool to your own short term ends, making their lives worse and worse. And it's such a delight to get out from under.
Not sure the situation for normies currently, but for power users, definitely dual boot and give it a try.
Still to this day I don't understand how people manage to do software development on a Windows PC. I started with my first secondhand MacBook which was one before the unibody, and then upgraded to unibody and never have left ever. The only reason I was forced to use Windows was for clients that didn't have support for MacOS or Linux. The only thing I need Windows for is rootkit enabled games... which pains me, otherwise I'd have Linux on my desktop
Gentoo forced me to switch to Apple.
jk, I wanted to install Ableton and now it's been 15 years.
Ableton Live works fine on Wine, at least for me. Every once in a while I boot it up to bounce stems from an older project to Bitwig.
And you got Bitwig :)
Yep, Ableton is why I have a Mac Mini on my KVM.
My main machines have been running Linux for years now, but there are still some things that are really bothering me. For one, I think dealing with virtual machines are still somewhat painful on Linux. VM managers continue to be clunky (I believe KDE is working on a new one), and GPU acceleration, let alone partitioning, isn’t really a thing for Windows guests which is something that works out of the box on WSL. Another frustrating part is the lack of a proper alternative to Windows Hello that allows you to set up passkeys using TPMs.
Speaking of "Content Creation", I'd also like to add the Affinity Suite. I don't particularly like it after being bought by Canva, but it works almost flawlessly on Linux.
You can even download a ready-to-run AppImage (no need to tinker with Wine settings) from here: https://github.com/ryzendew/Linux-Affinity-Installer/release...
I just wish Affinity would release a native port, but in the meantime, this works really good.
I switched back in 2022 to Ubuntu 20. I barely knew JavaScript at the time. I had zero problems doing so. Maybe my use case is narrow enough--I just use it for dev work and web browsing--but it was the least daunting process ever. Everything worked out of the box basically. Learning bash and unix changed my life. I don't understand how one could complain about Linux unless they've never even tried it
That said, I threw NetBSD on a P4 tower and it took me half a day just to get a GUI and an internet connection. Was kind of fun,though.
Give it a few more years and Linux will complete its inevitable evolution into Microsoft, same consolidation, same gatekeeping, just with better slogans and a smug sense of moral superiority.
How is this possible? I don't think you quite understand what "Linux" is.
There is no corporation, board, or CEO to force unwanted changes. Pretty much every piece of the operating system is free and open source.
If you don't like your "Linux", you can swap it out for another distribution or "distro".
thanks for the clarification on how the kernel development works. do you mind expanding on what is the benefit for companies like Microsoft, Google, IBM, Red Hat, Meta, Oracle, SUSE, Canonical, Amazon, Nvidia, AMD, Qualcom, Samsumg, Broadcom, Cisco, arm to spend an enormous amount of capital, both employing individuals to work full time on the kernel and making donations to cncf/linux foundation? Certainly all of the big players behind linux have our best interest in mind and certainly NONE of this companies have some history of making decisions in detriment of consumer agency and freedom. I would love to hear more about how linux is driven by passion and generosity if you don`t mind, please share!
I fail to see your point. Kernel development by the aforementioned big players benefits everyone and is all done in the open. Hence, "open source". In fact they use a public mailing list to submit patches.
All of the patches are auditable. If I don't want a patch, I can *trivially* omit it from my kernel before compiling.
How exactly are open source kernel modules and drivers affecting my freedom?
bingo.
Not bingo. The kernel doesn't provide antifeatures such as ChatGPT and ads on your start menu.
That would be your desktop environment... Which is also typically open source on Linux.
If KDE (desktop environment) developers decide to add ChatGPT or Claude integration, I can simply uninstall it and install a different DE.
That is highly unlikely.
Well, look at this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572
Yeah, you don't really understand what "Linux" is. It isn't one thing, you can't force anything into "Linux" because there are so many distros to choose from. With Windows that isn't possible - there's either Windows, or something else (or an old version of Windows).
> Basic operations are so much faster on Linux. Opening directories,
The fact that "opening directories" is something specifically mentioned as a point of difference hints to me that there is something terribly wrong in Microsoft / Windows -land.
If "opening directories" isn't a solved problem in any Operating System that's no longer in beta, never mind one that's been around for 30-odd years, there's something rotten in the foundations.
This seems to historically have been a pattern. There was a period where Windows Vista was forced on everyone and downgrading to Windows XP until Vista was better was forbidden.
Lots of people jumped to Mac or Linux at that time. There's article floating around that the Macbook Pro ironically was the best laptop to run Windows XP on via dual boot because it was so intel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista
The whole upgrade to Windows 11 was forced on me by Microsoft, basically using trickery. I opened windows update and it said there were some updates… Did not make it clear at all that it would be taking my system from Windows 10 to 11. I thought it was just installing security updates. I would’ve had to change it anyway when 10 support ended, but I still had about four months and wanted to wait.
Well, Linux reached ~5% market share in 2025. Imagine the incremental market share they have. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1lpepvq/linux_breaks...
My only issue is that i am not a developer, I am heavily reliant on Excel, i know it inside and out and just not sure whether OpenOffice supports excel files. In the past it barely did.
LibreOffice does fine, though you’ll probably be unhappy. What is more important to you? Freedom, privacy, consent, or spreadsheet features?
VMs are an option to partition your life as well.
There are many features of Excel that LibreOffice Calc doesn't support. Most importantly: structured references, VBA, PowerQuery. Not to mention its UI is very laggy even on powerful machines.
For real financial/business work, Calc is just not a serious player.
I even had to switch my reading list spreadsheet over from LibreOffice to Excel when the former started seriously lagging with about 250 rows total
I have a spreadsheet I've been using since 2017 to track all my spending and savings accounts on a weekly basis, plus some trend analytics, plus some simple graphs on multiple sheets. A few hundred rows and columns, both entered and calculated values (simple formulas, nothing fancy). Haven't noticed any slowness. When I have some data to look at (like .csv or even .xlsx), I always use Calc. I work with Excel at work all the time, it might be faster on larger data sets, but Libre's Calc is more than enough for many use cases.
I think there is a recent performance regression but hopefully will be fixed soon. Hasn't affected me. Learn Python, much better than VB.
Fedora + Google's Office Suite is the best way.
Don't bother with Libreoffice. Its trash. I'm convinced that Microsoft is deliberately sabotaging the project.
I have been using Linux as a desktop operating system for what I believe is almost two decades. Recently(?) I see distro named like CashyOS and Bazzite being thrown around. Am I missing out on something?
There are many really good ones these days that will have a much better experience than windows. I’ve used Ubuntu, Pop, Mint and Fedora workstation in the last 5 years and all worked great. Personally Mint Cinnamon had the least issues so I tend to run that on my machines now.
Once SteamOS becomes generally available I’ll switch to that. It’s incredibly polished on Steam Deck
If you don't want the "hassle" of flag optimization when compiling binaries, CachyOS is basically Arch but with optimized binaries. Otherwise, Gentoo all the way, you just need a good machine.
I want to switch to Linux for my EOL Windows 10 originally-built-for-gaming rig. It was “new” in 2016, so I hold out hope that there will be few compatibility issues. My biggest concerns are being able to play my library of steam games on it. Overall the problems I have are that last time I tried to put Linux on that machine I tried a dual boot system, and at the time UEFI did not play well with dual booting. I don’t know if it’s gotten better, but as of now I wouldn’t be dual booting anyway so conceivably it wouldn’t be an issue.
I doubt the dual boot issue was due to UEFI. It's more likely, Windows was clobbering over GRUB and overwriting your bootloader, as it likes to do. Windows really wants to be the only OS on your drive.
Most reliable way I've ran dual boot systems is to have each OS on it's own separate drive, and then choose with the UEFI boot menu which one to boot instead of choosing in GRUB off a single drive.
As for games, plug them into protondb (https://www.protondb.com) to see compatibility & read through the comments
> I wouldn’t be dual booting anyway
This tends to be better overall anyway, if you are really looking to switch. Dual booting is enough of a hassle that I've always ended up staying in whatever OS I felt required me to think I needed to dual boot, and the other aspirational OS gets forgotten.
Going all-in requires that you figure out new workflows, find new software, or in some cases change what you use the computer for and accept it.
I tried building a gaming PC, but I hated PC gaming. It felt like it was half sys admin work, half gaming... if the sys admin work went well that day. I dual booted it for a while, then ran straight Linux on it, and eventually sold it. I liked the idea of one box that did everything, but the reality of it wasn't so great. I now have computers I don't care about gaming on, and have consoles that require 0 effort and let me play games when I feel like playing games.
My desktop is a gaming-only machine, it’s still on Windows 10 and it will probably stay on Windows 10 until Steam stops working.
Just do it.
I bounced back and forth for a few years. Now? Not even dual boot, not even a VM. Maybe Linux did not get better than Windows, opinions differ. However, Windows certainly has gotten worse than Linux.
I only need Windows for a few programs, mostly licensed EDA programs that [dumb] companies didn't manage to port to Linux. Most engineers who use EDA tools are into linux so having to run a few things on Windows is a pain. The 'A' in EDA stands for automation and Windows is not the OS for that. I installed a standalone WIN10, then enabled the TPM and installed WIN11. Seems pretty solid but I had to guard against MSFT repeatedly trying to lead me into servitude.
There is a negative Moore's law for software, valid when the one for hardware stopped: with constant CPU speed, the speed of software decreases as its version increments.
You've sold me. Does anyone have a lightweight guide or something of a no-nonsense tutorial on how to do this without causing an even bigger headache than using windows?
Ubuntu with the Gnome Desktop works well as a family PC. Very easy installer with a GUI that walks you through everything.
https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop
Linux Mint is nice, but it's been a few years since I installed it. Back in 2018ish we had a lot of machines with old dual cores and 2-4GB of RAM that chugged on Windows. But after installing Linux Mint, they were given new life and ran very well.
https://linuxmint-installation-guide.readthedocs.io/en/lates...
I have been daily driving Ubuntu Cinnamon at work for ~3 years and it works pretty well. Some minor bugs here and there, but I can't imagine going back to Windows for a work machine.
https://ubuntucinnamon.org
There is a bit of a learning curve for Linux, so might be worth dipping your toes in to start before you go 100%.
I use linux all the time for work - i just haven't acutally ever installed it myself haha. Thanks for the links.
One of my favorite recent KDE features: Press Meta+t to design a custom window layout, and later hold Shift while you drag a window to place it in a slot in that layout.
My CPU can run Windows 11 fine, but what I don't tolerate is full-screen ad pop-ups on my desktop.
When Win10 popped up an ad for Win11, I moved fully to Linux the next day.
Ah 3d is fine with Maya and all the real VFX running on Linux. And we haven't had problems with game dev for years on Linux. Agree otherwise good to see another join.
I spent over a decade developing rendering software used in VFX, and ran CentOS Linux as my development platform at work.
We tried to follow the VFX reference platform once that became a thing back in 2014.
https://vfxplatform.com/
Unity works fine for example. I used it for a bit over a year on a project we did for multiple platforms
Awesome, good to know that, and glad to be here
Houdini,3dcoat,Nuke are the three things we pay for, will use Maya when we work with Maya artists, but dcc is mostly 3dcoat-blender-houndini workflow.
Sort of funny that Nadella quotes Steve Jobs from 35 years ago with the "bicycles for the mind" quip. Given enough time, MSFT's marketing will eventually catch up with NeXT's marketing.
https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle...
It's bad it really is, I got fed up and rolled back to windows 10 when I tried downloading a file and the whole UI locked up until the file finished. On my own personal high performance desktop with tons of memory, cpus, etc etc. Never saw this in Windows 10. Certainly never saw it in modern Linux.
Upvote for Arc Raiders :D
I was running win11 up until three weeks ago. Just a gaming rig, a steam launcher. A used behemoth tower I got for a song via CL. Installed Bazzite and have been incredibly impressed.
Also ty to the author for the link to the nvidia sleep fix. That’s been the only hiccup, and it sounds like I’ll have it sorted before bedtime.
Arch is great. However, I would never recommend Arch (or an Arch derivative) to a first-comer to Linux.
Ease in gently, with Ubuntu or Fedora. Get familiar. Then go crazy.
Ok so Arch apparently has an install script that does everything[0]. I tried it the other day and it's pretty flawless, albeit terminal-based so not for everyone I guess.
Pacman is _amazing_. Apt broke dependencies for me every few months & a major version Ubuntu upgrade was always a reformat. Plus, obviously, the Arch wiki is something else. I would go as far as to say you'll have an overall better Linux experience on Arch than Ubuntu and friends, even as a beginner.
[0]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Archinstall
Possibly. If the installer happy path fails (which has happened to me), Arch is "here's root shell, figure it out", Ubuntu is slightly more user-friendly :)
I will say Arch wiki is amazing, even if you're not using it. I'm on Debian nowadays and still often refer it for random obscure hardware setup details.
I started with Slackware Linux—something arguably even more “hard-core” than Arch.
What mattered most at the beginning was good installation documentation, and both Arch and Slackware delivered on that front. Slackware, however, had an additional appeal: it was intentionally simple, largely because it was created and maintained by a single person at the time. That simplicity made it feel conceivable that the system could be fundamentally understood by a single human mind.
Whether a newcomer appreciates the Slackware/Arch approach depends heavily on learning style and goals. You can click through a GUI installer and end up with a working distro, but then what? From a beginner’s perspective, you’ve just installed something somehow—and it looks like a crippled Windows machine with fewer buttons.
Starting with Slackware gave me a completely different starting reference point. Installing the system piece by piece was genuinely exciting, because every step involved learning what each component was and how it fit into the whole. The realization that Linux is essentially a set of Lego bricks—and that I might actually master the entire structure, or even build my own pieces—was deeply motivating.
That mindset was strongly shaped by how Slackware and similar distros present themselves. Even the lack of automatic dependency management acted as an early nudge toward thinking seriously about complexity, trade-offs, and minimalism, which stayed with me forever.
Yeah agree completely. Started with Slack at around 2.x, took a long time to switch to Debian and occasionally Ubuntu.
That was when you compiled your own kernel and installed software by running ./configure && make && make install
Normies fleeing Windows dumpster fire today won't do that.
Yeah, likely not. There are all kinds of shaes of gray in between that and windows style OS instalation, though.
Arch Linux just sits somewhere in the middle, where you don't build anything, but you get a guided tour of partitioning and formatting a disk, installing some set of packages and setting up a bootloader, from a fairly rich adn comfortable command line environment of a USB live distro.
Ah yes, Slackware. I remember downloading something like 15 floppy disks over the 56k modem for my first install. Maybe a v1.1 kernel?
Everyone says this but I have only ever used arch. Wiped windows and started with Manjaro. No VM to test straight to bare metal. I learned how Linux worked and then installed the base arch distro. If you can read a wiki, you can use arch. It's not rocket science. All the available arch flavored distros make it even easier today. I tried debian once and found it even more cumbersome. Is it apt or apt-get? is it install or update? Never stuck around to find out.
Or ... like me, switch to Fedora full time 20 years ago and still use it (ok, I use AlmaLinux on my workstation and servers)...
I used https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat on a family member's new Win11 install and it actually works reasonably snappy. I wouldn't be want to caught dead with it, but I couldn't convince this one to go for macOS.
I’ve asked before but the answer keeps changing before I get around to implementing it:
My kid wants to upgrade their PC from Windows 11 to Linux. They have a recent-ish Nvidia card. I’m very technical: I don’t mind doing whatever arcane thing needs done. They are not, yet.
I haven’t run Linux on my desktop in a decade and I’m completely out of date here. What should I steer my kid toward to run recent games?
Depends on the games. If your kid wants to play anything with kernel level anticheat, it will not work on Linux, period - these anticheats don't support Linux, and either prevent the game from running altogether or disable certain online modes.
Otherwise, CachyOS is extremely popular these days, and I suppose a valid choice.
Recommend making a live drive with Ventoy. Copy over latest .iso’s of Mint, Fedora, Bazzite? for gaming.
Give them all a test drive, see what you like before committing. After install try new things in VMs.
if theyre not that technical i would say just stick with something simple like zorinOS, which is ubuntu based so there is a bigger community behind it if they run into issues. zorin has an option to install nvidia drivers during the initial setup. popOS would be another option along the same lines
I switched after running basic dev tools became genuinely unusable (randomly freezing for minutes, start menu just didn't work, crashes all the time) despite being on good, new hardware.
I never wanted to switch before because I just wanted an OS that worked, didn't require babysitting, and was compatible with apps. But clearly, Windows has dropped the ball on this.
For me the only reason to keep windows 11 is Clip Studio Paint doesn't work yet in Linux... I use it mostly on my Android tablet BUT I want to have an alternative in case something is easier on a computer
> my first computer was a Windows 98 machine, with an Athlon XP 1900+ (Palomino core)
Off topic, anyone else think Windows 98 is too old for this machine? At a similar era I built an athlon t-bird 1.0GHz, I was mostly using Linux by then but if I did Windows then it would have been Win2k, maybe by the time of Athlon "XP", Windows XP would have been a thing too.
I'm not sure that "multi-compose" chrome bug is a windows-only thing though. I use chrome on Linux (slackware) with an nvidia card, and I get that issue all the time if I try to open more than one chrome WINDOW. Multiple tabs are ok, and SOMETIMES multiple windows are ok, but more often than not, I can only have one chrome window.
If you were primarily targeting a Windows market for a desktop application, but want to develop under Linux, what tech stack would you choose?
I think I'm pretty much there and just haven't made the switch yet. I'm going to give Mint a shot on my old PC soon and if its a good experience I'll switch on my desktop as well. Every time I have a bad experience in Windows lately I wonder why I'm sticking with it. Everything has been solved, its only momentum keeping me going.
This post is so 2001
Every year is the year of linux desktop.
Forced? It's been a delight. I'd say if anything, I've only ever felt forced to use MacOS or Windows, never forced to use Linux.
It is quiet sad to see Windows deteriorate that much over the years because of the decreased investment and lack of care and craftsmanship for the quality of the software being pushed out.
Thankfully unless you're running a few specific applications that only run on Windows, you can use any other operating system. It will do the job, with much less frustrations.
Windows 11 was bad before AI. Press the Start menu? Wait. That much latency was never acceptable and Windows should die like desktop Java did.
I don't understand how it got so bad. On Windows 95 or 98, you knew that pressing Windows > P > across right > N would open Notepad in about 22 milliseconds of interaction. Things just worked and responded.
Today it's utter garbage.
> You might be thinking "just disable updates, man" or "just install LTSC", or "just run some random debloat script off of GitHub". Why? Why would I jump through all these hoops? I'd rather put in the effort for an OS that knows what consent is and respects me as a user.
The absolute choice quote here. Tattoo it on your forehead.
Microsoft forced me to switch to Apple AND Linux.
My work-issued dev device is a Surface Pro 10. I can't use WSL2 for various regulatory reasons. I will never, ever work on software like this again. Worst development experience of my life because of what a miserable dev env windows is.
I know that's been a meme since forever, but my first hand experience supports it to the extreme.
I think shortly we may see "Apple forced me to switch to Linux" because of Tahoe and subsequent releases.
Anyone have a recommendation on a decent cloud-based file sync tool ala OneDrive? I use OneDrive extensively but there is no official client for Linux and the unofficial one has some major stability issues. I'm willing to change providers but not willing to put in the effort to roll-my-own.
I would also love to hear any success stories here. I converted my wife's Macbook over to Linux Mint somewhat recently and the best I could do was setup a shortcut to the Web version of her iCloud.
I just have to figure out how to play a few of my games on Steam and I can move over. Unfortunately, a few titles are still PC only so I can't make the switch. I very much would love to, but I basically need a $600 PC at all times to play a few select titles that will never come to Linux due to anti-cheat.
"Video playback works flawlessly, with hardware acceleration even" not really, especially on Netflix
I'm in the opposite position. Been a Linux user exclusively for 16+ years.
But I wanted to build some desktop apps and look at arcGIS so I finally installed Windows 11 on a laptop my first Windows in nearly 2 decades.
This was a month ago and I haven't opened the laptop since. But I'm going to soon maybe!
Also, just to DISH hard on Microsoft's engineers - How could they make it throught the job interview the loser who wrote add / remove programs it takes so long to load and they are not even embarrased.
** Embracing the Dark Side here **
I also recently switched to Debian + KDE after decades on Windows. I cloned my previous workflows in a few days and now have a very smoothly working desktop that I can still game on. High DPI and refresh are also working OK.
FWIW for similar reasons I nuked my Windows install and installed CauchyOS. My main reason for not doing it earlier was concerns about game compatibility but so far the games I want to play either are working without any issue or work after enabling Steam's proton compatibility layer.
>No more waiting for the Start menu to decide it wants to open. No more File Explorer hanging when you need it the most.
I ran XP in a VM on Windows 10.
The start menu opens instantly. After one video frame.
Windows explorer opens instantly. One video frame.
If they had literally done nothing for 20 years, it would be like 50x faster now.
For 3D modeling (assuming you want to do CAD), Onshape is a fantastic alternative to native applications.
Came here to say this too - after 10+ years with SolidWorks I switched to OnShape. A small learning curve but now I enjoy it just as much.
Ironically for me Linux has become the obvious default for casual use - web browsing, entertainment, paying my bills etc. I only boot Windows when I need to do some weird nerdy stuff, like checking updating SSD firmware with some proprietary software available only for Windows.
I'd be happy to switch to Linux, but my Macbook with M processor is a real work horse. First of all, everything works (bluetooth, headphones, camera, etc). Second of all, ARM based processor is a beast. Until someone release an ARM based laptop, I don't see myself switching to Linux.
Regarding high-quality commercial Linux software: SideFX Houdini offers a relatively affordable Indie license and is fantastic for most kinds of 3D work, compositing, and post-processing tasks. It’s also fully procedural and scriptable, which really makes my brain buzz.
Since most application run in the browser nowadays, the OS becomes less meaningful and more of a layer between browser and hardware.
If you see your PC as a tool, not a gimmick to consume, Linux is the only choice. Even MacOS crappifies over time and becomes a Windows copy over time.
> Windows is now also too much work.
Most people overlook that. I only ever see comments complaining about time spent to set up Linux. It's not the only variable, and for Windows it's the constant maintenance that's the issue. You are never just done setting up Windows.
I haven't even touched a Windows PC in years at this point. Don't know why you'd do that to yourself. I was hanging on to a gaming PC, but it broke during a move over 2 years ago now. I decided that was the last windows box I'd own at that point.
It’s been so long since I’ve used Windows I practically forgot it even exists as a “thing”. @_@
It's worth noting that if someone has the skill to install and run Linux with games, they probably have the skill to use massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts and ask AI to help bypass to install a local Windows account. And that probable takes less time.
I've been using Linux on my devices for quite some time now. I was pleasantly surprised when I had to start 4k video editing work and could just use Davinci Resolve. 2026 might not be the year of the Linux desktop, but it's getting better day by day.
At work, my employer is still running Microsoft products for the desktop environment. At home, assuming I'm using Microsoft products at all (rare), it's from inside the Chromium web browser on Linux or BSD.
Why is opening the taskbar right click menu slower on Win11 than on Win95?
Why is there a gap between the menu and the taskbar?
I used to have muscle memory to quickly close windows rightclick taskbar -> leftclick “close” but this stopped working. Why??
I switched to Arch last Summer and I'm quite happy.
Even Steam games work, I was quite impressed.
It was a very entertaining read. I am just wondering if this one may be actionable:
"And worst of all, you're like a pit bull that has lock-jawed onto OpenAI's ballsack, and you're not letting go, not matter how much we tell you to."
The only thing keeping my secondary / gaming / file-server computer on Windows is Backblaze. The main obstacle to me switching from macOS to Linux is Office 365 (doesn't work on Wine).
I know we keep hearing about how their share holders are forcing this change of focus in order to monetize ai. I just fail to see how alienating developers and the gaming community in the process will ever help achieve that.
My main reason for getting into Linux, forget the version or distribution maybe Slackware or RH at the time (later loved Debian the most) was that windows in that era was horribly unstable, BSOD etc
My parents paying for One Drive when they didn't need it is why I finally moved them off Windows as well.
I saw the amount of ads they were getting on their laptops and One Drive was even advertising to them on Samsung Android phones.
Audio latency on Linux was already very low long before PipeWire, thanks to JACK.
If only league of legends was playable in Linux. And a few other games.
I did the same on my laptop and PC. Unfortunately, my sound system receiver doesn't support Linux but I'll survive. And the speed of my machines more than makes up for it.
FWIW, On Reddit, I am seeing more and more discussions on the Linux subreddits or people getting fed up with Windows and switching to Linux. Usually, it's the Windows 11 upgrade that finally did it.
There is a good parallel here with Myspace and Facebook. Myspace added an ad network & was hammered by spammers around the same time Facebook was opening up user registration to everyone. Facebook had no ads. Myspace was dead.
This time Linux has very good game support to the point where some games have a higher FPS on Linux. It will be so expensive for Microsoft to attempt to turn this ship around, and it will likely still fail.
This is happening at the same time AI agents have gotten really good, so users will just use local AI agents to configure and troubleshoot the rough stuff about Linux. And then they will customize it so much they will never be able to go back to Windows.
Ubuntu is just fine for 99% of non tech users. Windows has so many anti-patterns, tricks, and OneDrive rugpulls now that Ubuntu is actually much safer and simpler for non-techies to use (I can also make the case it beats iOS in that department too.)
EOL of Windows 10 forced me to, but I'm not mad - Desktop Linux is Great!
It's definitely the superior OS for modern development and general system admin, WSL/Docker always felt like an uncanny valley kludge.
I switched during windows 10 and I had several friends switch after win7 wasn't supported. In hindsight I should have spent the few weeks to learn linux and switched back then too
I take tremendous umbrage at "femboy Thinkpad enjoyer."
A wonderful writeup.
> my first computer was a Windows 98 machine
The moment your Commodore 64 made you old.
The most puzzling part is why someone would run Windows 98 on a machine built around 2002/2003 (according to the specs).
Any suggestions for photo-editing, sharing, album management process for linux?
Its really the only thing on macOS + iOS that I use. Otherwise I am so over the mac lifestyle.
Don't worry, microsoft is putting its rust all over open source.
That Ableton Flicker: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ev3vENli7wQ
I've had a similar path, and I always recommend KDE with its taskbar on Ubuntu, it made the transition smoother for me in terms of preserving workflows.
"Like digital herpes, I just couldn't get rid of it."
Made my day! :-D
If you thought we were getting bad bugs before, just wait until the 90% agent-coded PRs start landing. We're gonna have multiple crowdstrike-level blowups.
I just switched to Linux as well on my Windows laptop. 10 was getting so hard to run and I had no clear/stable path to 11. Ubuntu runs great for me!
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-- Napoleon.
I'll switch to emacs if things go on like this.
Wow gun to head and everything. Glad he survived the transition.
More seriously, editing is either a lost art or click bait headlines are more important than ever. The title is very immature.
lol! Sorry about the clickbait. Everyone's doing it nowadays, and I wanted to follow. Gonna think of a better title next time
For what it's worth, personally I thought your writing style and sense of humor was excellent, and my favorite part of the post.
I also appreciate you giving me an updated copy of the "Microsoft is a corporation" meme, as the one I have downloaded seems to become outdated each time a new Windows update comes out.
Thank you! Sadly, the one I posted is outdated too. I tried looking around for the newest one because I had seen it before, but couldn't find it anymore. The list was ~30% longer.
If you can handle Linux, you should try Reaper as a DAW. It's really great.
The one thing holding me to M$ Windows is visual studio.
Yes, I am aware there are alternatives that others think are as good or better. No, I have not personally found that to be true.
> 've used Windows for as long as I've been alive. At 6 years old, my first computer was a Windows 98 machine,
this sounds like child abuse.
Without knowing anything internally about how microsoft builds:
Product driven development and too many managers with MBAs led to this problem.
I've never heard of CachyOS. I'm amazed at how many Linux versions there are and how good they seem and it makes me wish I could try them all.
Oh, you can try them all. That's pretty much an entire hobby itself.
Gnome comes with built in virtual machine support with the Boxes app, just download an ISO and try as many as you want.
I haven't driven a Windows box since 2010 (and even then it was just a few months at work) and I'm perfectly happy! Except I'm on a Mac and have been at every job since 2006 when they came out with the Intel-based ones. I of course run Linux on VMs at work, but my daily driver has been and likely will forever be a Mac. I don't miss installing/tweaking video drivers or registry settings. Things just work 99.99% of the time for me. No one is perfect and Apple has made mistakes, but for me, I'm 100% satisfied.
How do you find macOS Tahoe? I have deliberately avoided installing it on my M3 MacBook Air that I use for work mainly due to the lack of attention to detail they seem to have dumped on the UI.
I have used a Mac at work on/off since the Snow Leopard days and I think Snow Leopard made the most sense from a UI point of view, without wedging in iCloud file nonsense.
I have a Windows 10 machine at home for gaming / development but my daily driver at home is a Linux M910 Lenovo (small enough and powerful enough for C++ dev), along with a Windows 11 mini Lenovo machine for GeForce Now usage on a TV in the house, but do I hate using Windows 11.
At this point, the only thing holding me back is Adobe Lightroom. Which even that can technically run in a browser.
Between all the telemetry and them separating workstation and server duties, Windows is a no go aside from a generic gaming console here.
Ubuntu since 2011
Now if only "Linux" would make a good phone.
FSF is trying! https://librephone.org/
Android.
Now if only there was a good phone that runs GNU.
Similar sentiment but I think opting for a debian based intro would have solved some of the hurdles.
it's really bad these days. even the teams web client doesn't work properly and when it does it is missing the most basic features like "test my audio." i don't understand what it is about how that company is organized that the software keeps coming out with interfaces and user experiences that look like they were created by 2023 era generative ai.
Yeah my 70 year old father purchased for the first time a Macbook after being a Windows user his entire life.
* thirteen years ago. The lost me with win7->win8 migration. I thought the cannot go lower that that, and here we are.
I really want to like Linux but every time I try it (and I tried a lot of distros and DEs) it is death by a thousand UX paper cuts.
I went from Linux to Mac to Windows and every single one is death by a thousand UX paper cuts.
Once again, I don't really understand people who say Windows is easier. Take printer drivers. In windows you have a 'simple' wizard to install a printer driver. Except in my experience... it never works the first time and you have to fiddle. On Linux... I just bought a new printer, and it worked out of the box. My experience with most hardware today on Linux is out-of-the-box support while windows requires endless 'driver' installs. Even driver installs on linux are easier. Usually just drop a binary blob somewhere if you really need it and modprobe...
Again it's 2026... why is this so hard. Usually paid software is actually better and more feature-ful, but Windows is just not useful at all. The best use of Windows is WSL2
I have a ricoh postscript printer that just won't work on Linux, I also have a Canon 6020 that works well in Linux. The Ricoh works well on Windows. So my experience with CUPS is mixed.
Welcome to the club. I started my Linux and BSD journey in ~1998 and I haven't really touched Windows since ~2001 except for the occasional brief interaction.
I've never missed it. Like at all. There have been instances where some piece of software didn't have a Linux alternative, that's mostly been a mild inconvenience. There have been cases where it's been a serious problem too, such as when my ever-so-wonderful government decided to start using e-ID which only worked on Windows (thanks, Wouter from grep.be for fixing that).
Mostly I enjoy how I'm in control of my machine, instead of having to rely on a bunch of untrustworthy moneygrabbers who seem hell-bent on making the worst possible decisions at every turn.
Linux has plenty of video card driver issues too. Windows may suck, but Linux sucks in different ways. Windows suckage is solved by "buy a different machine and reinstall". Linux suckage is solved by weeks googling and trying technical fixes in consoles, installing different distributions and trying the same, then eventually buying a different machine.
Apple, for all its flaws, tends to not have the suckage of either. I don't like using Apple, but it does break a lot less. (One of the reasons is encompassed in this story... while Microsoft and Nvidia yell at each other, Apple makes both the OS and the graphics card, so they just solve the problem internally) Apple with VMs gives you everything without the hardware hassles.
Another problem with Windows, that has been going on for quite some time now, is that they do not have a real support channel for non-enterprise users that produces useful knowledge for the future. Almost any issue you google now has a thousand "answers" on microsoft.com that do not fix the problem because the people answering have not reproduced it and have not confirmed their solution.
In Linux forums, generally speaking, there is either a way it works or agreement that it hasn't been fixed yet. The main source of spam now is actually StackExchange, that prioritizes discussions from 10 years ago on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, rather than up-to-date questions and answers.
Timing of your post is spot on. I just emptied a drive to prep for a Linux switch this morning ( for the same reasons ) :D
Incredible moment when you have to ward off Windows, macOS and iPhone updates like a bouncer.
I’ve gone over the years from Visual Studio fanboy to writing everything in vi, entirely due to software decay.
Our culture and economy can no longer maintain complex GUIs.
To Protect yourself, this is what I did and experienced:
I set windows update service to manual, and so far the updates have not reset it, and I have been able to choose to install when I want. I feel safer, but I KNOW microsoft will fuck this over probably on their next update.
Another trick is as a super-super admin you can make executables UNEXECUTABLE by anyone. Things like Edge, etc. They do not let us remove their TRASH, but we still can lock them out, at least for now.
Another thing I had to do with Windows 11 when I had to rebuild my system because of Microsoft's SSD bug they would not cop too... They got rid of the magic trick to disable to OOBE which forces you to login with a microsoft account.... I could not find a way to work around it, but as soon as I was in I created a local admin user and it works well, they only force logged me in when I had to run FUCKING TEAMS for a job interview.
I'm heading down the linux path very soon, I almost did last year. Dual boot for a while, to see if how well my Steam library plays (literally it's the only thing keeping me on Windows 11).... Looking at Bazzite for this but we'll see.
We must UNITE to fight this tryany!
Microsoft Windows is an entitled tenant that thinks it owns the property (your computer).
Yes, did the same thing for similar reasons. Everything works well. When with Arch Linux.
Going to switch my non technical gf to Linux she is pissed at Windows 11 lately
Windows 98 did the same for me
If only the streaming giants would let us stream in decent quality..
I'm so glad ditching it 20 years ago, didn't look back once since.
Love that the Favicon for the blog is the Internet Explorer logo. Will that change?
I'd switch if it weren't for anticheat breaking the games I play. I really, really hate Windows, and Windows 11 even more than normal levels of Windows hate. I had to do some really weird shit to get it to a place that feels sane.
"The only real limitation is that some games with anti-cheat like Valorant, Call of Duty or League of Legends won't run. But honestly I think not being able to launch League of Legends is actually a feature - one final reason to install Linux."
Fair point though :P
A few years ago, I would have said that any game that uses such a level of anticheat that makes wine/proton unable to play it (ie: kernel level anticheat) is basically malware and you _shouldn't_ play it anyway, out of both principle, and also because if they had a bug in their code, you're just opening up your device to an unnecessary privilege escalation vector that other malware can abuse to escalate their privileges. (This is not theoretical, this has happened before, eg: with Genshin. Though I believe just the mere existence of a signed driver was enough, since malware can just "Bring your own Driver" (BYOD) and download the driver, at least before it was revoked)
Now, I still hold this belief in most regards. But I do see the appeal, especially if your friends and peers are gamers and actively play these sorts of games, and you feel that you're missing out on socialising or making new friends in that aspect. But there are plenty of other games and consoles, if you could just convince them to switch...
This sort of anticheat exists because cheat developers ruin the experience for players, and for games that intend to be competitive in a real sense, the integrity of the game. Cheat developers keep getting smarter, so anticheat developers need to do the same. I guess the kernel is sorta as deep as you can go, at least with software.
I don't like it personally but I do understand why they do it. It just means I can't play those games on Linux, and some studios just don't care.
It's a shame that they don't care, though supporting such a minuscule percentage of the gaming market doesn't make a lot of sense unless out of principle/just do to it.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
You absolutely can design a non-intrusive anticheat that doesn't hook into the kernel layer, and many games do exactly that. They do checks server-side, without hooking into your system. Or design their game to make it harder, eg if a player is behind a wall and can't be seen, don't even send the packets saying there's a player there.
Even with invasive anticheat, any dedicated actor can (and usually eventually do) find ways around it, and it becomes a game of cat and mouse. I feel a similar way about DRM in general.
Imo the tradeoff and danger is not worth it for consumers, but most are just not aware of the risk. Game developers take advantage of this and also do it because it's easier than actually designing their game in a way to minimise cheating (be it through code, or game mechanics)
On a tangent, even though it's for the wrong reasons (Even if I were a full-time user and a fan of Windows, I would not want to install games with invasive anticheat and pollute my system, out of principle), I'm glad that there is at least some pressure and pushback on invasive anticheat by gamers that usually run Windows, just for the reason so that it can run on something like a Steam Deck.
Many games do that, yes, though with varying degrees of success and often they get beaten by cheat tools. That's not to say that kernel-level anticheat can't get beaten, though there is a reason why games like Valorant have fewer such incidents. The cost/effort required to bypass the anticheat is way higher than some client-side checks.
Some games do choose to go the route of server-side authority, only showing what the client should be able to see, though I understand that's super compute heavy. Final Fantasy XIV does something akin to this, but players still develop client-side plugins to make their lives easier (higher-than-allowed camera zoom-out, displaying hidden boss mechanics when the client receives them, etc)
Cheats are also financially supported, specially in higher-profile games like Fortnite, Valorant, League of Legends, or similar, so the incentive to produce higher quality cheats exists.
People have been caught by pretending to play but actually screensharing the view of a pro player on their account, so I suppose that won't cover this :P
I made the decision to just play a different game when I switched back in 2022 or so. Thankfully, the game in question supported Linux shortly after the switch even though I got used to not playing it and just don't anymore :) I still try any anti-cheat games I come across to see if they work and it's surprising how many actually do.
Nothing wrong with staying on Windows if compatibility is an issue, though.
It's probably the toxicity that bothers you, so if you just switch chat to private mode you'll be golden.
Ever since I did that, League of Legends is great honestly, and able to be played daily with no toxicity or rage.
That quote is from the article rather than myself, though turning chat off does help
My experience is more like:
"I'll switch when Linux supports X."
Linux still doesn't supports X.
"Okay, but how about my X?"
Linux still doesn't supports X.
"Well, X is still missing..."
Trados Studio, good luck finding equivalent, I tried, and the alternatives are horrendous and I'm not gonna run it in VM.
Also I tried at least for son on his old computer live distro Mint from USB drive, everything works fine (unlike Zorin, which had problem with sound I think), but when I try to install it of course it doesn't detect Windows, same with wife's laptop.
So I have 3 computers: son's old laptop where I could install Mint - Linux Mint doesn't detect Windows
wife's old laptop where I could install Mint - Linux Mint doesn't detect Windows
my daily driver where my work SW requires Windows and there is no point installing Mint - Linux Mint detects Windows
I will have look at it during CNY holidays, if I will be able to install it alongside Windows (I need there Windows in case something would happen with my daily driver laptop).
I also plan to switch my father's old desktop to Linux Mint, but somehow I already know what will be most likely Windows detection status over there as well after son's and wife's laptop experiences. It works where it's not needed and it doesn't work, where I could actually install it.
If the activities are distinct, dual boot. I do all my dev in linux and boot into windows for gaming.
Dev in linux is so much nicer for me than dev in Windows.
Btw, my first computer was an Intel Pentium MMX 166Mhz IIRC, massive 64MB of SIMM ram, and impressive 8GB of disk. Trident "graphic card", Creative sound card and the ultra fast Motorola 56k modem haha
"I installed CachyOS .... It wasn't a painless process. In fact, sleep mode was broken from the start"
This is the problem with newbies into Linux world, they follow hype instead of installing a stable distro.
As it stands in 2026, Linux Mint Cinnamon is by far the best distro to use, no matter if you are into IT field, heavy gaming, video editing and 3D design, it just works.
It follows the well known stability of Debian Linux, while being up-to-date like Ubuntu but without all the bloatware, kernel panic and privacy issues from Ubuntu.
If you are following hype or those distro so called "rolling releases" aka Arch Linux, don't complain that you are having problems. They are everything but stable and "just works" lmao
Would be great to switch except I need Visual Studio Pro
Microslop must be stopped, absolute cancer of a company
i also vividly remember the specs of my first machine but weirdly nothing else after. i386SX with 4MiB RAM and a 10MB hard drive
"Oh you're doing work? That's so cute... we're gonna close whatever apps you had open, because we're updating now. We own your computer. You had unsaved work? Too bad, it's gone, get bent."
This, a 1,000 times. I hate, hate, hate this "feature". My Macs don't do that. My Linux systems don't do that. The whole, "screw you, we don't care" attitude of Microsoft is quite appalling.
Microsoft now makes it very difficult to disable this feature. After a few registry edits, I thought I was able to put a stop to the madness. But, then it went to rebooting on its own again.
I keep telling Windows 10 to delay these updates by 1 week each time...
Curiously, Office apps have auto-save, so does IntelliJ, VSCode, and even Notepad nowadays.. "restore my work environment after a reboot" almost works, but some things do disappear (e.g. unsaved web input forms) that it's aggravating enough. I wonder if they'll make it mandatory for apps to persist more across restarts.
Ok, that requires them to be competent, if they're competent we won't even have what we have now.
Keep these posts coming! More the merrier! :))
> Meanwhile, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella wrote a blog post asking people to stop calling AI-generated content "slop" and to think of AI as "bicycles for the mind."
I can't believe Nadella stole Jobs "bicycles for the mind" metaphor without attribution.
Literally just hit the MPO bug yesterday - what a shitshow that things like display scaling can fail with a mainstream gpu/cpu and windows 11 - like do they not have testing rigs for this in microsoft? if insiders preview is fine but production windows gets all these bugs... what are they inside previewing? The most stable build of windows I ever had (hell it's still chugging along with 1050 days of uptime...) was a windows 10 enterprise edition added to domain controller with update GPO set to basically never install windows updates automatically.
There is some serious work needed inside microsoft camp to continue with a 6 month release cycle.
Ubuntu since 2012
I’ve been working at a school that uses a mix of Surfacebooks, HP Elitebooks and MacBook Air M2s (now migrating everyone to M4s!).
I used to prefer Windows for work. After the absolutely abysmal performance using a SurfaceBook Pro, never again. I’ve never had to deal with such slow performance in my life. I literally cannot get work done. Staff with Windows have constant problems, updates take forever, reboots aren’t very fast, programs crash, and (not OS related) but the new Outlook is universally despised.
I’ve never seen a company shoot themselves in the foot so badly as I’ve seen Microsoft do this of late. More and more staff want MacBooks , and are even ok with using a remote session (ugh) to access the one app that relies on Windows.
Windows was the robbery of the century.
Iv'e switched all but my work laptop because of well work, but the push came after they seemed to 'dumb' down the OS.
The disjointed WebView mixed with old winforms for navigating simple things is infuriating alone. I've had a problem where the webview wouldn't render any of the display settings so my machine was stuck at a certain resolution and scale.
Simple things like accessing Environment Variables now is atrocious and hidden in the most obscure unintuitive way. That's to say nothing to the crashing. Linux desktop environments have come such a long way it's really any wonder anyone would put up with Windows anymore.
But then again, Microslop don't seem to care about the customer market much anymore anyway.
> If 3 years ago you would have told me that Microsoft would singlehandedly sabotage their own OS, doing more Linux marketing than the most neckbearded Linux fanboy (or the most femboy Thinkpad enjoyer), I'd have laughed in your face
I have no idea what that Thinkpad burn is supposed to mean.
Its not a burn. Just acknowledging the memes about cross dressing and programming/computer science that has been going around certain online circles for years.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks
o_O wow, okay. Appreciate it.
As time goes on, I get closer and closer for Linux to be my daily driver. The ads, the Microsoft account login, the OneDrive in the explorer window, the 'recommendations' to change my default browser, etc make me more angry by the day. However, when I install Linux on an old machine, I initially have driver issues like wifi. And after fighting with that for an hour, I decide it's not worth the risk to blow away my main machine. So I accept the slop from MS and continue on.
Another day another "hey guys I switched Linux" post gets pushed to the top of the heap. These add nothing except create an echo chamber about great Linux is and Windows is the worst.
I did exactly the same some 16-17 years ago, when they forced windows 8 square design bullshit and announced that they'll ditch 7. Never looked back.
Windows servers are still pretty good imho.
For a creative, why not macOS?
Fwiw... I've been doing Leenucks since '92. Back when you had to install BSD first, compile the kernel and reverse engineer how to boot into the new kernel you just built with gcc. But it was cheaper than SunOS, and the developers mailing list was more active than the BSD lists. I still miss my 3B1.
Anyway... welcome to the party. We saved you a beer. Doesn't matter you came later than other people. It just matters you made it here eventually.
I’ve been using a Mac for a about three years now, but every once in a while I use my old gaming laptop to play some games and every time I am reminded of how insufferable windows has become, using it feels I’m dumpster diving and the dumpster is asking me to sign into my Microsoft account. Apple gets a lot of shit for how they do things, but no one can deny that once you’re properly established in their ecosystem, it’s a phenomenal experience.
The author tried everything except switching graphics drivers?! That's like listening to the top 10 hits on broken speakers and declaring all new music is terrible.
Uninstalled with DDU, switched to multiple versions back. But it wasn't the nvidia driver, and I proved that when I switched to an insider build and the flickers were gone :D
You didn't use a non Nvidia driver then. Sounds exactly like you were always using beta drivers.
Similar journey, different distro! I wanted a Linux gaming machine, but given my recent admission into the cult of NixOS, I went with Jovian.
Jovian is a NixOS module that sets up a SteamOS-like experience on top of your existing NixOS config. I was able to build & tweak the config before even building my PC. It booted first try and has since been working without hiccups. Now I am setting up emulators, which is relatively straightforward with nixpkgs :)
I love the poem at the end
It's hard to square their complaints about Microsoft's delivering AI crap when the top work project reference they have is:
> DesignVerse
> AI website builder startup.
> - Tech Stack: Next.js, Vercel AI SDK, Mastra AI Framework
> - Role: Full Stack Developer
> - Built core features (full stack) and helped implement the AI-powered editing system.
haha cool post btw RN not always runs on chromium/v8
> I'm gonna go full conspiracy nut here, but I bet it's because the LLM understands JavaScript better, and Microsoft can't be asked to pay actual humans to write proper native code.
Do LLMs like Claude really excel at JavaScript than other programming languages? Similarly does OpenAI prefers Python over other languages?
I did that years ago, at the end of Windows 7 and the beginning of the need for a Microsoft account.
I seem to have a much lower tolerance for enshitification than most people. I'm off Microsoft, Facebook, Google, and LinkedIn. Purely because they became annoying.
You can tell all the Microsoft executives use Macs at work.
It's still disappointing how few folks know about gpedit and how much you can reclaim your own machine just by running through the local policies and setting them to "no, I call the shots".
need to pay for a pro license for gpedit - normies still get forced updates
I take an adversarial approach to Windows. Which started with Windows XP and its supremely annoying zip-files-as-folders approach. Sorry, but I didn’t want that, and I still gleefully rip it out of every Windows install I touch.
And then things started snowballing with every version.
Plus, I have elderly clients that got hopelessly lost on any UI after XP, so I had a lot of hacking-and-slashing to do there for not only them, but also myself. Like, just give me the option of a traditional XP-style start menu, goddammit. Thank goodness for StartIsBack.
But what took me about 6-8hrs of directed work with XP is now about 24-48hrs of work with Windows 11. Honestly, I am at the point where I just want to create a highly opinionated one-click configuration app that does everything for me.
And I would, if I still did as many installs as I was doing even half a decade ago.
Hmmm… as a DotNet developer… anyone interested in a spyware-eviscerating, copilot-extracting, settings-preserving app that allows you to retain a mostly-XP style look, and which remains resident to alert you of Microslop changing settings back?
>anyone interested in a spyware-eviscerating, copilot-extracting, settings-preserving app that allows you to retain a mostly-XP style look, and which remains resident to alert you of Microslop changing settings back?
I'm not, MS already lost me. But I would bet there's a market for such an app, if done right.
I could talk about things better in Linux whole day. But besides popularity (so being preinstalled, proprietary software availability, being presented from childhood) is there a single reason to use Windows? Backwards compatibility, accessibility? Maybe?
I switched to Linux circa 2010 when I needed a word processor but didn't want to go to the store to buy Office (was pretty young and poor at the time). After some Googling I found LibreOffice and Ubuntu. I had used Suse Linux years earlier when I was a kid but it definitely wasn't ready for use (2003) so I was also curious about Ubuntu and the current state at the time. I installed Ubuntu, used LibreOffice for the thing I needed, and never looked back. Linux was a breath of fresh air and it did all the things I needed. I went to university using only Linux (2012-2016), opened businesses, did all sorts of things, all 100% on Linux. Nice to see everyone else finally catching up.
Also has always been interesting seeing people whine about Linux the whole time I've been using it problem-free, across 4 PCs and 16 years.
I'm keeping an eye on SteamOS. I love how it's much better at running games than Windows, the platform those games were designed for.
Windows 11 isn't terrible, as long as you go back to how it was in Windows 10. Disable everything introduced in 11.
Microsoft is its own worst enemy.
Microsoft had a chance make even better OS than XP and 7 and convince millions of users to use Windows.
Okay maybe with Office products the ocean was already red, but still, instead of disgusting its millions of users, they could make them happy.
I am not a firm believer that GNU/Linux distributions are a drop-in replacement for Windows. One can work around compatibility issues, but for non–tech-savvy people, it's just not feasible.
I switched to MacOS since the release of Windows 10 and never looked back, of course I did miss some apps, though using laggy windows was much more painful.
I honestly don't understand the hatred that Microsoft gets for most of the work they're doing in Windows. As I've stated before, most 'problems' people ultimately have are either configuration issues or hardware issues. And I still stand by this even as I've had issues over the years here or there.
I think the most recent 'production' Windows issue I've had was OneDrive failing to recognize it was syncing my data even though it was syncing. The status symbols for the files and folders wasn't showing up. But that's about it.
My gaming desktop is stable, my PC is rock solid, I run VMs on it (game servers, dev/test environments), and overall just absolutely 0 problems with Windows or my OS at all.
I do, however, have hardware issues semi often. One of my monitors doesn't turn off its backlight, for example. I've had Razer devices just flat out quit on me over the years (multiple Razer mice, at least a couple of Nagas, etc.).
I contend that most people would do better with Windows if they just didn't mess with it (don't run any of those tools proclaiming to "debloat" your OS), and make sure you read the hardware compatibility list of your systems REALLY hard. Incompatible RAM can cause significant problems, a lot of which is completely avoidable if you just read the RAM QVL.
The only thing that I wish vendors would do more is work closer with Microsoft to provide BIOS updates over Windows Update. But, most of these motherboard IHVs are absolutely terrible about doing BIOS updates anyway and require specific mechanisms to keep going correctly. This is in contrast to the Enterprise/Business devices released by HP or Dell which have a usually solid BIOS update track. And again, the only issue I've ever had there was incompatible RAM.
>> I honestly don't understand the hatred that Microsoft gets for most of the work they're doing in Windows. As I've stated before, most 'problems' people ultimately have are either configuration issues or hardware issues.
And then you go on to describe your own hardware problems with windows. That's called "projection" - attributing your experience to everyone else. It's like you don't read the other complaints or somehow dismiss them. Have you not seen the ads yourself? Maybe you take the suggestions to use other Microsoft products as helpful suggestions rather than ads. Is that it? OneDrive failing? Try saying NO to using OneDrive - that's what some people would like to do and it'll keep advertising and trying to enable itself. Then when we do use it... well you've got issues with it not working right too.
I just came here to say that is ackchyually GNU/Linux.
LOL :D
1500+ points for a switch from Windows to Linux :)
Marvellous, spot on. 10+ fucking points.
Just run arch. (+1 for terrible advice)
Obligatory:
It’s the year of the Linux desktop!
I feel Windows 11 is in the initial phase of Windows 10. Remember beginning of years for 10? Sluggy, clunky, full of bugs? And everybody and their cat was holding to 7? I was the same, I was holding down the fort with 7. This year 7, next year 7 and so on until at one time I, like countless times before, spun a new virtual machine for a client and as usual I had to put 10 in there. Except this time 10 felt faster. No more clumsiness, no more slop. 2 months later I fully switched to 10 as my host OS.
I am currently on 10 so much that I installed the LTSC version that has support until 2032. Keep hammering Microslop, they deserve it. We need to keep bugging them, throw dirt on their face until they actually fix it. Seems that's the way with them nowadays. So I don't feel any shame to call them names at every corner.
But I am still not switching to Linux. Maybe in '32 when LTSC stop being supported and they still didn't fix 11. Oh, and from my experience, Debian will be the way to go. I like a proven distribution even if their repository is not the greatest and the latest.
AI bubble pop, when???
No to mention that the cloud-based user system that they are forcing on us instead of local accounts. So much trouble.
And Copilot crap being shoved down our throats at every turn.
Don't even get me started on Teams.
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Maybe it's stockholm syndrome but I still have no interest in Linux. Are nvidia drivers still bad?
The driver situation on Linux is still pretty hit-or-miss, but thanks to Microsoft's recent efforts, Windows has reached the same level of reliability as well.
What do you mean by bad?
Is this an ideological question? They are still primarily closed source.
Is this an install difficulty question? If you can read you can install them.
Is this a performance question? If you're a normie they're good. If you're demanding the top fps at the top resolution in dx12 games then there is still a noticeable difference but it should be fixed this year.
One aspect I wonder about is not so much about whether the collective gaming-on-linux effort can close the performance/features gap, but keep it closed. The story has been that windows is the main target system for "PC" game development and hardware/drivers (for good reason, it has majority market share), and then linux lags behind as various efforts figure out what's missing and how to implement.
Right now and for the foreseeable near term (3 years or so?) it seems like the focus on GPU advancements isn't aimed at gaming so will be a period of stability, but I wonder if/when focus does come back to gaming, when there's a new round of consoles, when a company wants a new feature set to distinguish a new generation (like geforce 20 series versus 10 and earlier), what can be done to make sure linux users aren't second class citizens. I'd also wonder about development tools, to use the most popular engine as an example, what could change with unreal engine to make sure it builds software that plays nice with the linux ecosystem even if the tooling works best under windows.
Yeah the main reason to dislike Nvidia drivers on Linux these days from a regular user point of view (I am not a Wayland developer so I don’t have to deal with whatever technical annoyance there is there) is just the philosophical/potential-privacy annoyance of running closed source code on my open source system. This doesn’t give the entirely closed source OS any points.
> Is this an ideological question? They are still primarily closed source.
That's a decent enough reason for a linux user to buy an AMD GPU but it isn't a good reason not switch to linux from a closed source OS. I'm in the process of switching to linux full time (it shouldn't really take that long but I haven't had a solid chunk of time in a bit) and am using an NVidia GPU so I went from closed source windows drivers to closed source linux drivers.
You're the top comment that addresses this so I'm putting this here but not exactly replying to you.
Depends on why they are bad.
If they're bad because they are proprietary, it is what it is. If they're bad because their dx12 performance is worse on linux than windows, supposedly the fixes for the vulkan descriptor boogeyman problem are just around the corner.
> Are nvidia drivers still bad?
Depends a ton hardware. Newer hardware has been playing well with the kernel but still not fully oss.
You’ll still have less trouble over all with amd though.
Drivers are generally fine, but there's more to it than just switching. If you're not bothered by the Win11 stuff, switching is probably not for you. Perhaps you can look into Linux for your current use cases and see if it's at all attractive.
The nvidia gods smile upon me, zero issues except the one I mentioned in the article. They do have to fix VKD3D performance though, 10-30% perf loss on Intel/Nvidia hardware when playing DX12 games.
Haven't really ever had much issues with nvidia drivers on Linux tbh, and I've been using it since the early 2000s.
nvidia drivers are pretty easy to install now that all of AI is trained on nvidia drivers on linux