The news had reported that it was Mexican cartel drones, not a balloon, and that is the position that our officials maintain, so it is good, so good, and patriotic actually
If some American civilians (if not illegals) flying by at the time of the foreign incursion are put in harm's way as sacrificial collateral damage in order to protect us in the heat of the moment, that's just the cost of freedom and we should all celebrate it, else leave for somewhere abroad with values that better align with an urge to welcome foreign invasion. Such a tragedy would be so easily avoided if the borders were simply closed and everyone stopped welcoming Mexican cartels into their communities, right? Balloon news is a distraction.
> "The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed -if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory."
Even more alarmingly, a US cabinet secretary came out with a public statement about the incident that was a complete fabrication (labelling it a "cartel drone incursion"), has issued no retraction, and no one seems to care.
(Less alarmingly but more personal: my personal prediction to this effect, expressing distrust about statements like this in real time, got flagged right here on HN because apparently our leaders lying to our faces about news relevant to our community is "politics" and unseemly to discuss.)
Remember, this is the same side that espoused "meritocracy" as their number one virtue. Instead, we got a cabinet full of loyalists and fascists that decided doing joint missions between the DoD and Border Patrol was a good idea.
Firing lasers at party balloons in American cities, everyone else be damned. OPSEC is clear.
A 53" balloon costs $9.99. You could shut down all large and medium hubs in the US for $629.37/day. The asymmetry is astounding and I'm surprised we don't defend against this kind of attack more efficiently.
Doesn't usually work. There are over a thousand incursions by unmanned aircraft systems along the U.S.-Mexico border each month, per the NORAD commander: https://www.war.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/370778... . They pretty much never result in shutting down air space or launching missiles.
Responding to a single party balloon with a giant laser, thus causing a saner government official to close the airspace because some moron is firing giant lasers into the air, is unusual. Probably not a usable asymmetric attack vector.
'saner govt official because moron firing giant lasers into the air' - lasers just go everywhere at once and hit everything in the air, into the stratosphere? it's a big sky and gets bigger the higher you go.
lol, this is a great imply-but-don't-make-a-point from an account called gunapologist99.
Is the implication here that someone firing laser weapons at things flying near the airport has no realistic danger for planes flying near the airport and therefore this was an overreaction?
I'm equally surprised we don't fend off these rampant goblin threats too!
More pragmatically, such a system would cost multiple millions, and would take years to actually stabilize in a manner that would recover the fictitious costs to shutting down the airports with gaps. (i.e. I'm surprised you so easily bought into the 500k figure)
All because a bunch of idiots lost track of their one balloon, once? The asymmetry is banal. There are cheaper ways that require less planning than that.
I think the general assumption is that the US government is competent enough to know the difference between a party balloon and a real threat, but apparently it is not. At least not under the current admin.
Firstly, how is the world's most powerful military afraid of "cartel drones"? Don't they already have some sci-fi laser/EW gizmos to take care of those considering how much taxpayer dollars go to the defense sector?
Secondly, contrary to popular belief, cartel leaders are smart enough to know not to directly mess with and attract the wrath of the US military when that's not good for their core business.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like the FAA maybe did not trust CBP to "test" operate the high powered laser near civilian aviation, in part given that they mistakenly identified a balloon for a cartel drone.
Don't they already have some sci-fi laser/EW gizmos to take care of those
Isn't that the problem? Someone (but apparently DHS, not the military though there were military staff present, maybe?) had one of those sci-fi laser gizmos and used it without authorization or proper notifications.
I don't think we'll ever learn the real details about exactly what happened, the audit trail (if there was one) is probably in shredder baskets by now
Customs and Border Patrol is not the military. They weren't "afraid" of it, their job is to control the border. They do have laser gizmos, that's what they used.
Okay, but they're not like styropyro on YouTube here... presumably the DHS people are using the whatever government weapons contractor made device, which is going to come with more nuance, controls, targeting system, etc. than whatever someone might buy off the shelf or cobble together independently.
I think it might have actually been DOD people operating the system even, but there's conflicting reporting and I'm not sure. Either way it seems like there was at the very least some kind of coordination failure.
I may have foolishly accepted the premise of incompetence in posing my question. Basically it seemed to me like the complaint was untrained/experienced (incompetent) people were deciding/deploying the fancy laser munition. That seemed worth of rebuke. After some brief searching I'm less clear about who took what action.
It seemed more like giving police forces (or allowing them to buy) APCs, armored Humvees, etc. Less trained/experienced people using things made for a different use case, ultimately exposes the people to more risk. Instead of say coordinating with the DOD to deploy the system and personnel accepting requests or being the decision maker for "take action" after some level of expertise in the area of evaluating targets and whatever else need be considered has also contributed to the process.
I don't know how it does work, let alone have enough context to imagine how it should. While I do agree "things to deter drones are appropriate border defense tools," the rest of the details painted a picture that seemed less reasonable.
Mostly agree. I wouldn't give high powered lasers to local police forces either. My point is that the problem is less to do with lasers and anti-drone tech in particular than with incompetence and abuse of power generally. Lasers are just the way it manifested in this instance.
Nuclear weapons are also directly relevant to "homeland security" (at least as a deterrent), yet I doubt many would be in favor of putting them under DHS as well.
I am not sure how much the average person realizes that drones in both a reconnaissance and observation role or an attack role have changed the nature of warfare and have threatened localities.
We don't have good tools to deal with them, especially groups.
It would be trivial, right now, for a few fpv drones to cause extreme chaos somewhere like a popular highway in Los Angeles, and the amount of economic damage that could do.
It's a technological shift in how warfare is conducted, but from a protection standpoint, the tools aren't great to counter them yet.
Is there any reputable source for this claim? Apologies if I missed it but didn't see one linked in the article. I ask because it's not what I'd read or understood yesterday.
No. Only unnamed sources. I would say it is more likely a balloon than not though. Both stories are perfectly believable, a mylar balloon is def going to show up on radar, and the cartel does use drones. I think the balloon story is more believable though because the cartels would gain almost nothing from this, and if it was a drone I would expect photos of the debris by now.
FAA Administrator Bryan Bedford on Tuesday night decided to close the airspace — without alerting White House, Pentagon or Homeland Security officials, sources said.
...
Customs and Border Protection used the laser weapon earlier this week after training from the U.S. military, according to multiple sources familiar with its deployment. Officials had recently given the FAA a 10-day window in which the technology would be used.
The anti-drone technology was launched near the southern border to shoot down what appeared to be foreign drones. The flying material turned out to be a party balloon, sources said. One balloon was shot down, several sources said.
The Mexican cartels have been running drones on the border lately, the sources said, but it was unclear how many were hit by the military's anti-UAS (unmanned aircraft systems) technology this week. One official said at least one cartel drone was successfully disabled.
> Three U.S. military officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said U.S. Customs and Border Protection had been using the technology without issues before Tuesday's shutdown and expressed confusion as to why the shutdown was deemed necessary. [0]
It was definitely the army [1] who fired the laser causing the shutdown of El Paso airport, but the army doesn't seem to understand the alarm on the part of the FAA, because DHS (Border Protection) has been using it for some time now without the same alarm from the FAA. Someone at the FAA reacted differently to this army firing than they had to previous DHS firings.
99 ministros de guerra
Fósforos y bidones de gasolina
Se creían gente muy astuta
Ya olfateaban un gran botín
Gritaron: “¡Guerra!” y querían poder
Hombre, ¿quién lo hubiera pensado?
Que alguna vez llegaría tan lejos
Por culpa de 99 globos
Is this the case of radar automatic targeting unable to distinguish between a balloon and a drone. Or was this a border guy manually pulling the trigger with bad eyesight?
Thinking more practically though. Why wouldn't there be "narco drones", with drone technology becoming so ubiquitous and cheap? And what would their operators care about airspace restrictions? The practical ones, as in "not get sucked into a jet engine or damage a wing and cause a plane crash"?
So can we dismantle other security theater with balloons? Can we make a balloon for Tsa that is harmless and will cost too much to fight and demonstrates the pointlessness of Tsa?
"The news of the failure comes two years after ABC News reported that secret teams from the DHS found that the TSA failed 95 percent of the time to stop inspectors from smuggling weapons or explosive materials through screening."
More alarmingly, the laser weapon was deployed before the FAA actually shut down the airspace:
https://apnews.com/article/faa-el-paso-texas-air-space-close...
I'd say these trigger-happy clowns chasing tough-guy optics are going to get innocent people killed, but then they already have -- multiple times.
Yeah, a bit late for that. But this would likely kill more at once than they've had before, so would land a new record.
The news had reported that it was Mexican cartel drones, not a balloon, and that is the position that our officials maintain, so it is good, so good, and patriotic actually
If some American civilians (if not illegals) flying by at the time of the foreign incursion are put in harm's way as sacrificial collateral damage in order to protect us in the heat of the moment, that's just the cost of freedom and we should all celebrate it, else leave for somewhere abroad with values that better align with an urge to welcome foreign invasion. Such a tragedy would be so easily avoided if the borders were simply closed and everyone stopped welcoming Mexican cartels into their communities, right? Balloon news is a distraction.
> "The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed -if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory."
Was the party balloon made in China?
who did the news cite? the liar admin?
Even more alarmingly, a US cabinet secretary came out with a public statement about the incident that was a complete fabrication (labelling it a "cartel drone incursion"), has issued no retraction, and no one seems to care.
(Less alarmingly but more personal: my personal prediction to this effect, expressing distrust about statements like this in real time, got flagged right here on HN because apparently our leaders lying to our faces about news relevant to our community is "politics" and unseemly to discuss.)
Remember, this is the same side that espoused "meritocracy" as their number one virtue. Instead, we got a cabinet full of loyalists and fascists that decided doing joint missions between the DoD and Border Patrol was a good idea.
Firing lasers at party balloons in American cities, everyone else be damned. OPSEC is clear.
Have you not seen the cowboy hat that she wears tho?
The rate of return on this is phenomenal.
A 53" balloon costs $9.99. You could shut down all large and medium hubs in the US for $629.37/day. The asymmetry is astounding and I'm surprised we don't defend against this kind of attack more efficiently.
Doesn't usually work. There are over a thousand incursions by unmanned aircraft systems along the U.S.-Mexico border each month, per the NORAD commander: https://www.war.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/370778... . They pretty much never result in shutting down air space or launching missiles.
Responding to a single party balloon with a giant laser, thus causing a saner government official to close the airspace because some moron is firing giant lasers into the air, is unusual. Probably not a usable asymmetric attack vector.
'saner govt official because moron firing giant lasers into the air' - lasers just go everywhere at once and hit everything in the air, into the stratosphere? it's a big sky and gets bigger the higher you go.
lol, this is a great imply-but-don't-make-a-point from an account called gunapologist99.
Is the implication here that someone firing laser weapons at things flying near the airport has no realistic danger for planes flying near the airport and therefore this was an overreaction?
wow maybe we should stop giving the law enforcement orgs weapons of war
All cops should have a nuke.
This is already a thing in Eastern Europe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8655gn84ego
I'm equally surprised we don't fend off these rampant goblin threats too!
More pragmatically, such a system would cost multiple millions, and would take years to actually stabilize in a manner that would recover the fictitious costs to shutting down the airports with gaps. (i.e. I'm surprised you so easily bought into the 500k figure)
All because a bunch of idiots lost track of their one balloon, once? The asymmetry is banal. There are cheaper ways that require less planning than that.
I avoided the 500k figure and instead just mentioned airport shutdowns.
I'm surprised you saw it in my comment. It's reminiscent of an airport seeing a would be drone.
I think the general assumption is that the US government is competent enough to know the difference between a party balloon and a real threat, but apparently it is not. At least not under the current admin.
America's war on balloons has been ongoing for some time:
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/18/1158048921/pico-balloon-k9yo
> Who among us hasn’t, at some point, mistaken a party balloon for a cartel drone? Let him cast the first stone.
Firstly, how is the world's most powerful military afraid of "cartel drones"? Don't they already have some sci-fi laser/EW gizmos to take care of those considering how much taxpayer dollars go to the defense sector?
Secondly, contrary to popular belief, cartel leaders are smart enough to know not to directly mess with and attract the wrath of the US military when that's not good for their core business.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like the FAA maybe did not trust CBP to "test" operate the high powered laser near civilian aviation, in part given that they mistakenly identified a balloon for a cartel drone.
FAA sounds kinda woke to me, idk.
Well generally speaking you don't want air traffic controllers falling asleep at the job.
Don't they already have some sci-fi laser/EW gizmos to take care of those
Isn't that the problem? Someone (but apparently DHS, not the military though there were military staff present, maybe?) had one of those sci-fi laser gizmos and used it without authorization or proper notifications.
I don't think we'll ever learn the real details about exactly what happened, the audit trail (if there was one) is probably in shredder baskets by now
Customs and Border Patrol is not the military. They weren't "afraid" of it, their job is to control the border. They do have laser gizmos, that's what they used.
>their job is to control the border
Thank god they’re here defending us from rogue party balloons. Where would we be without their vigilance?
I think it's clear they were mistaken, I don't really think the sarcasm is adding to the conversation.
The problem isn’t the mistake, it’s the recklessness.
I never said otherwise.
Fair enough
It wasn't the military it was DHS.
The laser gizmo is central to this story.
This wasn't the military. It was DHS, who is lead by the cosplaying cowboy hat lady, so this sort of incompetence should be completely expected.
Really making you wonder why does DHS have direct access to this hardware?
Pentagon gave it to them. The heads of both these orgs are incompetent and should be impeached.
I thought I read that they borrowed it from the actual military, which tends to be a little bit more cautious with these things.
Lasers are not particularly controlled by regulation. Most people in the US can own a class 4 laser if they want.
Also, most laws that do restrict weapons specifically exempt government law enforcement anyway.
Okay, but they're not like styropyro on YouTube here... presumably the DHS people are using the whatever government weapons contractor made device, which is going to come with more nuance, controls, targeting system, etc. than whatever someone might buy off the shelf or cobble together independently.
I think it might have actually been DOD people operating the system even, but there's conflicting reporting and I'm not sure. Either way it seems like there was at the very least some kind of coordination failure.
https://youtu.be/uo63QQsm5Dw?si=SvD7JZrpJbVXF7nf&t=91
It's pretty directly relevant to "homeland security", anti-terrorism, etc. I wouldn't say that's the problem.
Make no mistake, the actual drone terrorism is coming. I guess you could say that only the actual military should handle it, but... Why?
I may have foolishly accepted the premise of incompetence in posing my question. Basically it seemed to me like the complaint was untrained/experienced (incompetent) people were deciding/deploying the fancy laser munition. That seemed worth of rebuke. After some brief searching I'm less clear about who took what action.
It seemed more like giving police forces (or allowing them to buy) APCs, armored Humvees, etc. Less trained/experienced people using things made for a different use case, ultimately exposes the people to more risk. Instead of say coordinating with the DOD to deploy the system and personnel accepting requests or being the decision maker for "take action" after some level of expertise in the area of evaluating targets and whatever else need be considered has also contributed to the process.
I don't know how it does work, let alone have enough context to imagine how it should. While I do agree "things to deter drones are appropriate border defense tools," the rest of the details painted a picture that seemed less reasonable.
Mostly agree. I wouldn't give high powered lasers to local police forces either. My point is that the problem is less to do with lasers and anti-drone tech in particular than with incompetence and abuse of power generally. Lasers are just the way it manifested in this instance.
Nuclear weapons are also directly relevant to "homeland security" (at least as a deterrent), yet I doubt many would be in favor of putting them under DHS as well.
That both of those are labelled "homeland security" is almost a coincidence. Strategic security vs a fancy brand name for counter-terrorism.
Nuclear weapons are controlled more specifically by law. Lasers are not.
I am not sure how much the average person realizes that drones in both a reconnaissance and observation role or an attack role have changed the nature of warfare and have threatened localities.
We don't have good tools to deal with them, especially groups.
It would be trivial, right now, for a few fpv drones to cause extreme chaos somewhere like a popular highway in Los Angeles, and the amount of economic damage that could do.
It's a technological shift in how warfare is conducted, but from a protection standpoint, the tools aren't great to counter them yet.
Yeah the answer to
> Don't they already have some sci-fi laser/EW gizmos to take care of those considering how much taxpayer dollars go to the defense sector?
Is pretty much a flat "no". Or at least "not yet".
If we had tools, the airport would never have been shut down.
I once mistook a Scottish lake monster for a narcosub, but can’t say I’ve ever mistaken a party balloon for a narcodrone.
It's a shame the F-22 wasn't publicly allowed to get its second A2A kill! ;)
Fyi, the f-22 logged a second kill shortly after the first:
https://apnews.com/article/pentagon-shoots-down-unknown-flyi...
Is there any reputable source for this claim? Apologies if I missed it but didn't see one linked in the article. I ask because it's not what I'd read or understood yesterday.
No. Only unnamed sources. I would say it is more likely a balloon than not though. Both stories are perfectly believable, a mylar balloon is def going to show up on radar, and the cartel does use drones. I think the balloon story is more believable though because the cartels would gain almost nothing from this, and if it was a drone I would expect photos of the debris by now.
All of the "reputable" sources appear to be relying on "highly placed" anonymous sources, and many of the articles conflict with each other.
Could have been little green men! But what exactly happened is probably (or should be) classified.
Yes: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/airspace-closure-followed-spat-...
FAA Administrator Bryan Bedford on Tuesday night decided to close the airspace — without alerting White House, Pentagon or Homeland Security officials, sources said.
...
Customs and Border Protection used the laser weapon earlier this week after training from the U.S. military, according to multiple sources familiar with its deployment. Officials had recently given the FAA a 10-day window in which the technology would be used.
The anti-drone technology was launched near the southern border to shoot down what appeared to be foreign drones. The flying material turned out to be a party balloon, sources said. One balloon was shot down, several sources said.
The Mexican cartels have been running drones on the border lately, the sources said, but it was unclear how many were hit by the military's anti-UAS (unmanned aircraft systems) technology this week. One official said at least one cartel drone was successfully disabled.
Reuters has a slightly different take on this:
> Three U.S. military officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said U.S. Customs and Border Protection had been using the technology without issues before Tuesday's shutdown and expressed confusion as to why the shutdown was deemed necessary. [0]
It was definitely the army [1] who fired the laser causing the shutdown of El Paso airport, but the army doesn't seem to understand the alarm on the part of the FAA, because DHS (Border Protection) has been using it for some time now without the same alarm from the FAA. Someone at the FAA reacted differently to this army firing than they had to previous DHS firings.
[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/senator-says-el-paso-airpor... [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/aeroviron...
Thanks!
What you read yesterday was most likely a deliberate lie to cover up dysfunctional federal government agencies:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/airspace-closure-followed-spat-...
"99 Luftballons", Mariachi remix.
That doesn't rhyme at all though.
Is this the case of radar automatic targeting unable to distinguish between a balloon and a drone. Or was this a border guy manually pulling the trigger with bad eyesight?
Thinking more practically though. Why wouldn't there be "narco drones", with drone technology becoming so ubiquitous and cheap? And what would their operators care about airspace restrictions? The practical ones, as in "not get sucked into a jet engine or damage a wing and cause a plane crash"?
Alexa play 'Nena - 99 Red Balloons'...
We posted simultaneously! :)
There is no defence against an enemy that can cause hysteria so easily.
Is it even legal to release a party baloon in class D airspace?
It's illegal everywhere in Texas
https://1023thebullfm.com/texas-bans-outdoor-balloon-release...
Yet another 5 year old doing covert ops?
You guys said that we did this for the show!
Imagine if there had been 99 balloons?
We are on the dumbest timeline.
So can we dismantle other security theater with balloons? Can we make a balloon for Tsa that is harmless and will cost too much to fight and demonstrates the pointlessness of Tsa?
> Can we make a balloon for Tsa that is harmless and will cost too much to fight and demonstrates the pointlessness of Tsa?
You don't need a balloon. A real gun will do.
https://abcnews.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-ope...
"The news of the failure comes two years after ABC News reported that secret teams from the DHS found that the TSA failed 95 percent of the time to stop inspectors from smuggling weapons or explosive materials through screening."
The Secretary of Homeland Security thought the balloon was her dog and treated it as such (/s?)