> The enterprise mindset dictates that you need an out-of-process database server. But the truth is, a local SQLite file communicating over the C-interface or memory is orders of magnitude faster than making a TCP network hop to a remote Postgres server.
I don't want to diss SQLite because it is awesome and more than adequate for many/most web apps but you can connect to Postgres (or any DB really) on localhost over a Unix domain socket and avoid nearly all of the overhead.
It's not much harder to use than SQLite, you get all of the Postgres features, it's easier to run reports or whatever on the live db from a different box, and much easier if it comes time to setup a read replica, HA, or run the DB on a different box from the app.
I don't think running Postgres on the same box as your app is the same class of optimistic over provisioning as setting up a kubernetes cluster.
Sqlite smokes postgres on the same machine even with domain sockets [1]. This is before you get into using multiple sqlite database.
What features postgres offers over sqlite in the context of running on a single machine with a monolithic app? Application functions [2] means you can extend it however you need with the same language you use to build your application. It also has a much better backup and replication story thanks to litestream [3].
The main problem with sqlite is the defaults are not great and you should really use it with separate read and write connections where the application manages the write queue rather than letting sqlite handle it.
Actually, there are no inserts in this example each transaction in 2 updates with a logical transaction that can be rolled back (savepoint). So in raw terms you are talking 200k updates per second and 600k reads per second (as there's a 75%/25% read/write mix in that example). Also worth keeping in mind updates are slower than inserts.
> no indexes.
The tables have an index on the primary key with a billion rows. More indexes would add write amplification which would affect both databases negatively (likely PG more).
> Also, I didn't get why sqlite was allowed to do batching and pgsql was not.
Interactive transactions [1] are very hard to batch over a network. To get the same effect you'd have to limit PG to a single connection (deafeating the point of MVCC).
- [1] An interactive transaction is a transaction where you intermingle database queries and application logic (running on the application).
Thing is though - either of those options is still multiple orders of magnitude faster than running on a remote host. Either will work, either will scale way farther than you reasonably expect it to.
> What features postgres offers over sqlite in the context of running on a single machine with a monolithic app
The same thing SQL itself buys you: flexibility for unforeseen use cases and growth.
Your SQLite benchmark is based in having just one write connection for SQLite but all eight writable connections for Postgres. Even in the context of a single app, not everyone wants to be tied down that way, particularly when thinking how it might evolve.
If we know our app would not need to evolve we could really maximize performance and use a bespoke database instead of an rdbms.
It seems a little aggressive for you to jump on a comment about how it’s reasonable to run Postgres sometimes with “SQLite smokes it in performance.” That’s true, when you can accept its serious constraints.
As a wise man once said, “Postgres is great and there's nothing wrong with using it!”
> Sqlite smokes postgres on the same machine even with domain sockets [1].
SQLite on the same machine is akin to calling fwrite. That's fine. This is also a system constraint as it forces a one-database-per-instance design, with no data shared across nodes. This is fine if you're putting together a site for your neighborhood's mom and pop shop, but once you need to handle a request baseline beyond a few hundreds TPS and you need to serve traffic beyond your local region then you have no alternative other than to have more than one instance of your service running in parallel. You can continue to shoehorn your one-database-per-service pattern onto the design, but you're now compelled to find "clever" strategies to sync state across nodes.
Those who know better to not do "clever" simply slap a Postgres node and call it a day.
> SQLite on the same machine is akin to calling fwrite.
Actually 35% faster than fwrite [1].
> This is also a system constraint as it forces a one-database-per-instance design
You can scale incredibly far on a single node and have much better up time than github or anthropic. At this rate maybe even AWS/cloudflare.
> you need to serve traffic beyond your local region
Postgres still has a single node that can write. So most of the time you end up region sharding anyway. Sharding SQLite is straight forward.
> This is fine if you're putting together a site for your neighborhood's mom and pop shop, but once you need to handle a request baseline beyond a few hundreds TPS
It's actually pretty good for running a real time multiplayer app with a billion datapoints on a 5$ VPS [2]. There's nothing clever going on here, all the state is on the server and the backend is fast.
> but you're now compelled to find "clever" strategies to sync state across nodes.
That's the neat part you don't. Because, for most things that are not uplink limited (being a CDN, Netflix, Dropbox) a single node is all you need.
May be an "out" there question, but any tech book suggestions you'd recommend that can teach an average dev on how to build highly performant software with minimal systems?
I feel like the advice from people with your experience is worth way way way way more than what you'd hear from big tech. Like what you said yourself, big tech tends to recommend extremely complicated systems that only seem worth maintaining if you have a trillion dollar monopoly behind it.
Backups, litestream gives you streaming replication to the second.
Deployment, caddy holds open incoming connections whilst your app drains the current request queue and restarts. This is all sub second and imperceptible. You can do fancier things than this with two version of the app running on the same box if that's your thing. In my case I can also hot patch the running app as it's the JVM.
Server hard drive failing etc you have a few options:
1. Spin up a new server/VPS and litestream the backup (the application automatically does this on start).
2. If your data is truly colossal have a warm backup VPS with a snapshot of the data so litestream has to stream less data.
Pretty easy to have 3 to 4 9s of availability this way (which is more than github, anthropic etc).
My understanding is litestream can lose data if a crash occurs before the backup replication to object storage. This makes it an unfair comparison to a Postgres in RDS for example?
Last I checked RDS uploads transaction logs for DB instances to Amazon S3 every five minutes. Litestream by default does it every second (you can go sub second with litestream if you want).
> Backups, litestream gives you streaming replication to the second.
You seem terribly confused. Backups don't buy you high availability. At best, they buy you disaster recovery. If your node goes down in flames, your users don't continue to get service because you have an external HD with last week's db snapshots.
If anything backups are the key to high availability.
Streaming replication lets you spin up new nodes quickly with sub second dataloss in the event of anything happening to your server. It makes having a warm standby/failover trivial (if your dataset is large enough to warrant it).
If your backups are a week old snapshots, you have bigger problems to worry about than HA.
This is a disingenuous scenario. SQLite doesn't buy you uptime if you deploy your app to AWS/GCP, and you can just as easily deploy a proper RDBMS such as postgres to a small provider/self-host.
Do you actually have any concrete scenario that supports your belief?
> SQLite doesn't buy you uptime if you deploy your app to AWS/GCP
This is...not true of many hyperscaler outages? Frequently, outages will leave individual VMs running but affect only higher-order services typically used in more complex architectures. Folks running an SQLite on a EC2 often will not be affected.
And obviously, don't use us-east-1. This One Simple Trick can improve your HA story.
Nonsense. You can't outrun physics. The latency across the Atlantic is already ~100ms, and from the US to Asia Pacific can be ~300ms. If you are interested in performance and you need to shave off ~200ms in latency, you deploy an instance closer to your users. It makes absolutely no sense to frame the rationale around performance if your systems architecture imposes a massive performance penalty in networking just to shave a couple of ms in roundtrips to a data store. Absurd.
https://antonz.org/sqlite-is-not-a-toy-database/ — 240K inserts per second on a single machine in 2021. The problem you describe is real, but the TPS ceiling is wrong by three orders of magnitude on modern hardware.
Do you know why it is a toy? Because in a real prod environment after inserting 240k rows per second for a while you have to deal with the fact that schema evolution is required. Good luck migrating those huge tables with Sqlite ALTER table implementation
This doesn't seem like a toy but you know... realizing different systems will have different constraints.
Not everyone needs monopolistic tech to do their work. There's probably less than 10,000 companies on earth that truly need to write 240k rows/second. For everyone else, we can focus on better things.
Try doing that on a “real” DB with hundreds of millions of rows too. Anything more than adding a column is a massive risk, especially once you’ve started sharding.
Yes it might be risky. But most schema evolution changes can be done with no or minimal downtime even if you have to do then in multiple steps. When is a simple ALTER going to be totally unacetable if youare using Sqlite?
I’ve seen multimillion dollar “enterprise” projects get no where close to that. Of course, they all run on scalable, cloud native infrastructure costing at least a few grand a month.
I love them both too but that might not be the best metric unless you’re planning to run lots of little read queries. If you’re doing CRUD, simulating that workflow may favor Postgres given the transactional read/write work that needs to take place across multiple concurrent connections.
Not sure that’s always right either though. For example Mapbox used to use an SQLite database as the disk cache for map tile info. You cannot possibly store that amount of data in memory, so it’s a great use case.
This is mostly about thread communication. With SQLite you can guarantee no context switching. Postgres running on the same box gets you close but not all the way. It's still in a different process.
The original claim being discussed is about the overhead of an in-process database vs. a database server in a separate process, not about whether SQLite or PostgreSQL have a faster database engine.
I have used SQLite with extensions in extreme throughput scenarios. We’re talking running through it millions of documents per second in order to do disambiguation.
I won’t say this wouldn’t have been possible with a remote server, but it would have been a significant technical challenge.
Instead we packed up the database on S3, and each instance got a fresh copy and hammered away at the task. SQLite is the time tested alternative for when you need performance, not features
> It's not much harder to use than SQLite, you get all of the Postgres features, it's easier to run reports or whatever on the live db from a different box, and much easier if it comes time to setup a read replica, HA, or run the DB on a different box from the app.
Isn't this idea to spend a bit more effort and overhead to get YAGNI features exactly what TFA argues against?
Thats just swapping another enterprise focused concern into the mix. Your database connection latency is absolutely not a concerning part of your system.
I mean, you’re not wrong about the facts, but it’s also pretty trivial to migrate the data from SQLite into a separate Postgres server later, if it turns out you do need those features after all. But most of the time, you don’t.
So you are migrating from Sqlite to Postgres because you need it. What is the state of your product when you need to do this migration? Is your product non trivial? Are you now dependent on particular performance characteristics of Sqlite? Do you now need to keep your service running 24/7? Accounting for all of that takes way more than 5 minutes. The only way to beat that is if you still have a toy product and you can just export the database and import it and pray that it all works as a migration strategy.
IIRC TCP/IP through localhost actually benchmarked faster than Unix sockets because it was optimized harder. Might've been fixed now. Unix sockets gives you the advantage of authentication based on the user ID of who's connecting.
My experience with sqlite for server-based apps has been that as your app grows, you almost always eventually need something bigger than sqlite and need to migrate anyway. For a server-based app, where minimizing deployment complexity isn't an extremely important concern, and with mixed reads and writes, it's rarely a bad idea to use Postgres or MariaDB from the start. Yes there are niche scenarios where sqlite on the server might be better, but they're niche.
If this sounds like basic advice, consider there are a lot of people out there that believe they have to start with serverless, kubernetes, fleets of servers, planet-scale databases, multi-zone high-availability setups, and many other "best practices".
Saying "you can just run things on a cheap VPS" sounds amateurish: people are immediately out with "Yeah but scaling", "Yeah but high availability", "Yeah but backups", "Yeah but now you have to maintain it" arguments, that are basically regurgitated sales pitches for various cloud platforms. It's learned helplessness.
When I was a consultant we would plan out 25 piece cloud deployments for little pie in the sky apps that would never see more than 200 users. Everyone has been trained that 'cloud' means a lot of expensive moving parts and doesn't stop to plan their deployments beyond that.
It's all of five minutes to write a deployment yaml and ingress and have literally anything on the web for a handful of dollars a month.
I've written rust services doing 5k QPS on DO's cheapest kube setup.
It's not rocket science.
Serverless node buns with vite reacts are more complicated than this.
Ten lines of static, repeatable, versioned yaml config vs a web based click by click deploy installer with JavaScript build pipelines and magical well wishes that the pathing and vendor specific config are correct.
And don't tell me VPS FTP PHP or sshing into a box to special snowflake your own process runner are better than simple vanilla managed kube.
You can be live on the web from zero in 5 minutes with Digital Ocean kube, and that's counting their onboarding.
Don’t forget that people involved in information technology procurement will pay very large sums of the company’s money to not have to understand anything.
I do like this: cron to run the backup and then rsync to https://www.rsync.net, then an after script that check it was run and post to my telegram the analysis.
Why go live if you don't have a reasonable expectation of users?
Worrying about HA when you don't have customers that need it is one thing, but I wouldn't want to be in a place where I have to put a banner on the website asking users to please make a new account because we had an oopsie.
And also incredibly trivial to fix. Most VPS providers include their own backup services, and for the rest there's rsnapshot and some other cheaper VPS somewhere else to keep it "off site."
Too many have forgotten what it means to administrate a single system. You can do a lot with very simple tooling.
The better availability and scalability of “the cloud” always relied on so many things being done and maintained just right by just the right people that I don’t think it’s ever been broadly true.
You get such a large performance malus and increase in complexity right from the start with The Cloud that it’ starts at a serious deficit, and only eventually maybe overcomes that to be overall beneficial with the right workload, people, and processes. Most companies are lacking minimum two of those to justify “the cloud”.
And that’s without even considering the cost.
What I think it actually is, is a way for companies that can’t competently (I mean at an organizational/managerial level) maintain and adequately make-available computing resources, to pay someone else to do it. They’re so bad at that, that they’re willing to pay large costs in money, performance, and maybe uptime to get it.
I end up explaining this term to every junior developer that doesn't know it sooner or later, the same way I explain bike shedding to all PMs that don't know it... often sooner, rather than later.
It seems to really help if you can put a term to it.
Heh, I was gonna say cargo cult might mean something different in today’s programming landscape but then I thought about it for a second and it actually reinforces th meaning.
I don't know what to say. People keep saying these engineers exist and here I am not having seen a single, and I follow many indie hackers communities.
A devops coworker found my blog and asked me how I host it, is it Kubernetes. I told him it's a dedicated server and he seemed amazed. And this was just a blog. It's real
My point is that none of these coworkers have ever been at that stage. He was surprised about me hosting something because he seems to think hosting is expensive and for companies. Straight in at the top end of k8s and microservices
There's plenty of people that got a CS degree and went to work and this is only a job for them, they have no interest outside of work. Unfortunately I'm not one of those people so I get off work troubleshooting issues to troubleshoot issues at home lol though there aren't that many just my choice to self host cameras through HomeKit sometimes falls apart somehow but im also squeezing every KB or RAM out of that beelink I can.
Don't get me wrong I don't think a homelab is necessary, but I think people who have only done this in a big corporate environment are doing themselves a disservice - either a small company or a homelab can fix that itch, but like you say a lot of people don't have the interest
It's like a developer who went straight from knowing nothing about programming to JavaScript and never looked back. They missed C, they missed assembly, they missed cycle counting, they missed knowing what your memory footprint is at all times in your application, they missed keeping your inner loops tight and in the cache... It's not just "oh this person doesn't have a nerdy hobby." These are real skill holes in [many] developers' backgrounds, just like knowing how to host something on bare metal+OS is a real skill hole for some devops people.
I once interviewed for a small print shop that was proudly throwing out every AWS product name when describing their stack. They serve a few hundred customers and their previous system worked for decades entirely over email and a web form. I decided I wasn't interested around the point where he explained how they're migrating to lambdas
hey - devs aren' the only ones who fall in the premature optimization trap! Everyone from the CTO envisioning the scale of their future startup down to the IT intern is influenced by this, plus it's in the best interest of a dedicated infra guy to have a lot of dedicated infra. If you don't manage people K8s can become your kingdom and the size a badge of importance.
In this case I think it was a bit of CTO envisioning scale, then a bit of CTO genuinely overestimating what is needed, plus a good amount of CTO just being the average nerdy dev who likes the idea of shiny toys and cool sounding stuff - "we're running on k8s!".
A year or so after I left they ran out of money. They would've lasted longer if the infra guy would've just stayed the backend guy and helped get projects done more quickly instead of shiny k8s setups for projects with a dozen end-users per day. Recently I saw that the CTO has started a new startup - and ironically the only guy who he took with him onto the new team looks to have been the infra guy!
I don't blame infra guy, he genuinely believed he was doing the right thing.
> I use Linode or DigitalOcean. Pay no more than $5 to $10 a month. 1GB of RAM sounds terrifying to modern web developers, but it is plenty if you know what you are doing.
If you get one dedicated server for multiple separate projects, you can still keep the costs down but relax those constraints.
I put Proxmox on it and can have as many VMs as the IO pressure of the OSes will permit: https://www.proxmox.com/en/ (I cared mostly about storage so got HDDs in RAID 0, others might just get a server with SSDs)
You could have 15 VMs each with 4 GB of RAM and it would still come out to around 2.66 EUR per month per VM. It's just way more cost efficient at any sort of scale (number of projects) when compared to regular VPSes, and as long as you don't put any trash on it, Proxmox itself is fairly stable, being a single point of failure aside.
Of course, with refurbished gear you'd want backups, but you really need those anyways.
Aside from that, Hetzner and Contabo (opinions vary about that one though) are going to be more affordable even when it comes to regular VPS hosting. I think Scaleway also had those small Stardust instances if you want something really cheap, but they go out of stock pretty quickly as well.
Mostly to have stronger separation, I'm sure the person who prefers VM-per-project also has their own reasons.
I just have a few large VMs, each a different environment with slightly different ways how I treat them - the prod ones get more due diligence and being careful, whereas all of the dev ones (including where I host Gitea, Woodpecker CI, Nextcloud, Kanboard, Uptime Kuma etc.) I mess around with the configuration in and do restarts more often. I personally used to run a Docker Swarm cluster, but now just use Docker Compose with Ansible directly, still multiple stacks per each of those servers, dead simple
So my setup ended up being:
* VPS / VMs - an environment, since don't really need replication/distributed systems at my scale
* container stack (Compose/Swarm) - a project, with all its dependencies, though ingress is a shared web server container per environment
* single container - the applications I build, my own are built on top of a common Ubuntu LTS base more often than not, external ones (like Nextcloud and tbh most DBs) are just run directly
Works very well, plus containers allow me to easily have consistent configuration management, networking, resource limits and persistent storage.
What do you do about ipv4 ? Do you also use a routing VM to manage all that ?
It’s very interesting how people rent large VMs with a hypervisor. I’m wondering if licenses for VPS have any clauses preventing this for commercial scale.
I help my dad run a proxmox setup on a server he's got from a local craigslist analog and put on a co-location in a datacenter. It only uses a single public IP. All VMs are in a "virtual intranet", and the host itself acts like a router (giving local IP addresses to VMs via dnsmasq, routing VM internet access via NAT, forwarding specific outside ports to specific VMs). For example ports 80, 443 are given to a dedicated "nginx vm" which then will route a request to a specific VM depending on the hostname.
Since I only needed about 3 VMs (though each being a bit beefier, running containers on them, a web server sitting in front of those with vhosts as ingress), I could give each VM its own IPv4 address and it didn’t end up being too expensive for my use case. Would be a bit different for someone who wants many small VMs.
I quite like the websequencediagram. looks like a cool product!
He's mainly talking about the tech implementation which is the easy part.
the hard part of creating a business is finding a problem valuable enough to solve and reaching the users who need that problem solved. that's where the real value is.
This is the most frustrating problem I have. I do my 40 hours per week, play with my kids, relax with the wife, and play some video games. I don't really have any other problems besides not enough time in the day. And yet when I learn about some domain specific problem, it is blindingly obvious.
Nice list! I'd say the SQLite with WAL is the biggest money saver mentioned.
One note: you can absolutely use Python or Node just as well as Go. There's Hetzner that offers 4GB RAM, 10TB network (then 1$/TB egress), 2CPUs machines for 5$.
Two disclaimers for VPS:
If you're using a dedicated server instead of a cloud server, just don't forget to backup DB to a Storage box often (3$ /mo for 1TB, use rsync). It's a good practice either way, but cloud instances seem more reliable to hardware faults. Also avoid their object store.
You are responsible for security. I saw good devs skipping basic SSH hardening and get infected by bots in <1hr. My go-to move when I spin up servers is a two-stage Terraform setup: first, I set up SSH with only my IP allowed, set up Tailscale and then shutdown the public SSH IP entrypoint completely.
Personally for backups I’d avoid using a product provided by the same company as the VM I’m backing up. You should be defending against the individual VM suffering corruption of some kind, needing to roll back to a previous version because of an error you made, and finally your VM provider taking a dislike to you (rationally or otherwise) and shutting down your account.
If you’re backing up to a third party losing your account isn’t a disaster, bring up a VM somewhere else, restore from backups, redirect DNS and you’re up and running again. If the backups are on a disk you can’t access anymore then a minor issue has just escalated to an existential threat to your company.
Personally I use Backblaze B2 for my offsite backups because they’re ridiculously cheap, but other options exist and Restic will write to all of them near identically.
Once I had Postgresql db with default password on a new vps, and forgetting to disable password based login, on a server with no domain. And it got hacked in a day, and was being used as bot server. And that was 10 years ago.
Recently deployed server, and was getting ssh login attempts within an hour, and it didn't had a domain. Fortunately, I've learned my lesson, and turned of password based login as soon as the server was up and running.
And similar attempts bogged down my desktop to halt.
Having an machine open to the world is now very scary. Thanks God for service like tailscale exists.
> Nice list! I'd say the SQLite with WAL is the biggest money saver mentioned.
Funny you said that. I migrated an old, Django web site to a slightly more modern architecture (docker compose with uvicorn instead of bare metal uWSGI) the other day, and while doing that I noticed that it doesn't need PostgreSQL at all. The old server had it already installed, so it was the lazy choice.
I just dumped all data and loaded it into an SQLite database with WAL and it's much easier to maintain and back up now.
I need more info about devs getting infected over ssh in less than an hour. Unless they had a comically weak root password or left VNC I don't believe it at all
Yes, <1h was a weak root password. All attacks I've seen directly were always user error. The point is effectively removing attack surfaces rather than enhancing security in needlessly exposed internet-facing protocols.
> You are responsible for security. I saw good devs skipping basic SSH hardening and get infected by bots in <1hr. My go-to move when I spin up servers is a two-stage Terraform setup: first, I set up SSH with only my IP allowed, set up Tailscale and then shutdown the public SSH IP entrypoint completely.
Note that you don't need all of that to keep your SSH server secure. Just having a good password (ideally on a non-root account) is more than enough.
I'd call it unnecessary exposure. Under both modern threat models and classic cybernetic models (check out law of requisite variety) removing as much surface attack area as possible is optimal. Especially disabling passwords in SSH is infosec 1o1 these days. No need to worry about brute force attacks, credential stuffing, or simple human error, which was the cause of all attacks I've seen directly.
It's easier to add a small config to Terraform to make your config at least key-based.
Does WAL really offer multiple concurrent writers? I know little about DBs and I've done a couple of Google searches and people say it allows concurrent reads while a write is happening, but no concurrent writers?
Not everybody says so... So, can anyone explain what's the right way to think about WAL?
No, it does not allow concurrent writes (with some exceptions if you get into it [0]). You should generally use it only if write serialisation is acceptable. Reads and writes are concurrent except for the commit stage of writes, which SQLite tries to keep short but is workload- and storage-dependent.
Now this is more controversial take and you should always benchmark on your own traffic projections, but:
consider that if you don't have a ton of indexes, the raw throughput of SQLite is so good that on many access patterns you'd already have to shard a Postgres instance anyway to surpass where SQLite single-write limitation would become the bottleneck.
Thanks! even I run a sqlite in "production" (is it production if you have no visitors?) and WAL mode is enabled, but I had to work around concurrent writes, so I was really confused. I may have misunderstood the comments.
First step is to get ssh setup correctly, and second step is to enable a firewall to block incoming connections on everything except the key ports (ssh but on a different port/web/ssl). This immediately eliminates a swathe of issues!
Historical reliability and compatibility. They claimed they were S3 compatible, but they were requiring deprecated S3 SDKs, plus S3 advanced features are unimplemented (but at least they document it [0]). There was constant timeouts for object creation and updates, very slow speeds and overall instability. Even now, if you check out r/hetzner on reddit, you'll see it's a reliability nightmare (but take it with a grain of salt, nobody reports lack of problems). Not as relevant for DB backups, but billing is dumb, even if you upload a 1KB file, they charge you for 64KB.
At least with Storage Box you know it's just a dumb storage box. And you can SSH, SFTP, Samba and rsync to it reliably.
I do agree that the overall tendency towards cloud has made things much more complicated and expensive than they need to be in many cases. Cloud has its place, but so do simple server instances. Many projects won't reach any kind of scale that would exceed the capabilities of a medium-sized VPS. We're running a page with 600k users at work that could easily fit on a 30€ VPS. Instead, we moved to AWS and are now paying 800€ for it. No benefits whatsoever.
So yea, stick with what worked for decades if you don't see a reason not to.
Also, I remember reading that StackOverflow runs on a bunch of super powerful root servers?
There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM. By paying $20 instead of $5 you can get at least 8gb of RAM. You can use it for caches or a database that supports concurrent writes. The $15 difference won’t make any financial difference if you are trying to run a small business.
Thinking about on how to fit everything on a $5 VPS does not help your business.
$15 is not exactly zero, is it? If you don't need more than 1GB, why pay anything for more than 1GB?
I recall running LAMP stacks on something like 128MB about 20 years ago and not really having problems with memory. Most current website backends are not really much more complicated than they were back then if you don't haul in bloat.
It is. With 10k MRR it represents 0.15% of the revenue. Having the whole backend costing that much for a company selling web apps is like it’s costing zero.
You probably don't make 10k MMR on day one. If you make many small apps, it can make sense to learn how to run things lean to have 4x longer runway per app.
The runway is going to be your time and attention span, not $10/mo.
I don't know what you value your time or opportunity cost as... but the $10/mo doesn't need to save very many minutes of your time deferring dealing with a resource constraint or add too much reliability to pay off.
If resource limitations end up upsetting one end user, that costs more than $10.
Given how much revenue depends on the experience of a web app and loading times, I’d be happy to pay 100$ a month on that revenue if I don’t have to sacrifice a second of additional loading time no matter how clever I was optimizing it.
if the project already has positive revenue then arguably the ability to capture new users is worth a lot, which requires acceptable performance even when a big traffic surge is happening (like a HN hug of attention)
if the scalability is in the number of "zero cost" projects to start, then 5 vs 15 is a 3x factor.
NVME read latency is around 100usec, a SQLite3 database in the low terabytes needs somewhere between 3-5 random IOs per point lookup, so you're talking worst case for an already meaningful amount of data about 0.5ms per cold lookup. Say your app is complex and makes 10 of these per request, 5 ms. That leaves you serving 200 requests/sec before ever needing any kind of cache.
That's 17 million hits per day in about 3.9 MiB/sec sustained disk IO, before factoring in the parallelism that almost any bargain bucket NVME drive already offers (allowing you to at least 4x these numbers). But already you're talking about quadrupling the infrastructure spend before serving a single request, which is the entire point of the article.
> There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM
There is a good reason: teaching yourself not to over-engineer, over-provision, or overthink, and instead to focus on generating business value to customers and getting more paying customers. I think it’s what many engineers are keen to overlook behind fun technical details.
> There is a good reason: teaching yourself not to over-engineer, over-provision, or overthink, (...)
This is specious reasoning. You don't prevent anything by adding artificial constraints. To put things in perspective, Hetzner's cheapest vCPU plan comes with 4GB of RAM.
If I give you a box with 1 GiB of RAM, you are literally forced to either optimize your code to run in it, or accept the slowdown from paging. How is this specious?
> If I give you a box with 1 GiB of RAM, you are literally forced to either optimize your code to run in it, or accept the slowdown from paging. How is this specious?
It is specious reasoning. Self-imposing arbitrary constraints don't make you write good, performant code. At most it makes your apps run slower because they will needlessly hit your self-impose arbitrary constraints.
If you put any value on performant code you just write performance-oriented code, regardless of your constraints. It's silly to pile on absurd constraints and expect performance to be an outcome. It's like going to the gym and work out with a hand tied behind your back, and expect this silly constraints to somehow improve the outcome of your workout. Complete nonsense.
And to drive the point home, this whole concern is even more perplexing as you are somehow targeting computational resources that fall below free tiers of some cloud providers. Sheer lunacy.
Constraints provide feedback. Real-world example from my job: we have no real financial constraints for dev teams. If their poor schema or query design results in SLO breaches, and they opt to upsize their DB instead of spending the effort to fix the root problem, that is accepted. They have no incentive to do otherwise, because there are no constraints.
I think your analogy is flawed; a more apt one would be training with deliberately reduced oxygen levels, which trains your body to perform with fewer resources. Once you lift that constraint, you’ll perform better.
You’re correct that you can write performant code without being required to do so, but in practice, that is a rare trait.
The gym analogy fails. Isolation exercises are almost exactly what you described. They target individual muscles to maximize hypertrophy, i.e. "improve the outcome of your workout."
I think we have to re-think and re-evaluate RAM usage on modern systems that use swapping with CPU-assisted page compression and fast, modern NVMe drives.
The Macbook Neo with 8GB RAM is a showcase of how people underistimated its capabilities due to low amount of RAM before launch, yet after release all the reviewers point to a larger set of capabilities without any issues that people didn't predict pre-launch.
Memory compression sounds like going back to DOS days. I think we're better off with writing tighter more performant code with no YAGNI. Alas, vibe coding will probably not get us there anytime soon.
> I bought a GitHub Copilot subscription in 2023, plugged it into standard VS Code, and never left. I tried Cursor and the other fancy forks when they briefly surpassed it with agentic coding, but Copilot Chat always catches up.
> Here is the trick that you might have missed: somehow, Microsoft is able to charge per request, not per token. And a "request" is simply what I type into the chat box. Even if the agent spends the next 30 minutes chewing through my entire codebase, mapping dependencies, and changing hundreds of files, I still pay roughly $0.04.
> The optimal strategy is simple: write brutally detailed prompts with strict success criteria (which is best practice anyway), tell the agent to "keep going until all errors are fixed," hit enter, and go make a coffee while Satya Nadella subsidizes your compute costs.
People get banned abusing this per request strategy so be careful. This guy was running super long prompts per request and is somehow surprised why they got banned.
It works with all models, some have a cost multiplier like Opus 4.6 ”charges” 3 requests per prompt, but its still only for the prompts you send yourself - even if it works on the issue for hours. GPT-5.4 has no multiplier i.e. costs 0.04$ per prompt.
Worth noting however that they are starting to introduce rate limits lately so you might struggle to run multiple concurrent sessions, though this is very inconsistent for me. Some days I can run 3-4 sessions concurrently all day, other times I get rate limited if I run one non-stop..
If you feel like it: start a blog! You have knowledge that you consider basic and a certain other subset of the population is interested in it and doesn't know it exists.
I think it's good. I've definitely seen resource inflation exactly that OP is alluding to in enterprise. A desire to have some huge cloud based solution with AWS, spark bla bla when a python script with pandas in a cron job was faster.
Not only that, his whole business model seems to be "profit off the AI bubble and get the big techs to indirectly subsidize you"
Which obviously works, it's not like there aren't tons of multi-million startups ultimately doing the exact same thing, and yet. It feels a bit... trite?
Honestly, yes. I'm on HN for tech content, I don't really care about startups and the business side of things, even though sometimes there are interesting reads on this side as well. Also, it may very well be the case that I rediscover the meaning of MRR for the second or third time in sixteen years :).
I was also curious about that, I would've thought especially in 2010 the startup ethos would've been more prevalent on HN whereas these days it's more about AI and big tech.
There was always tech content. I'd say it was even a more important part back in the days, and it was more diverse. There were always some trends (Ruby on Rails, Rust, etc.) but it was never like these days with LLM-related content which is almost all of the tech content. Because of that I've gone back to Reddit like two years ago, and now spend even more time there than here, which hadn't been the case in almost 15 years before that.
French subreddits, coffee subreddits, free software and free culture subreddits, specific programming languages subreddits, computer science subreddits, and yes, general tech subreddits which are also flooded with AI stuff, but I feel that it makes a significant difference that users can still downvote links there, which hasn't been possible in years on HN (not saying that it's a bad thing, just that it's a significant difference).
There is also ARR which is "annual recurring revenue" and you should know that when people use ARR they usually are just making up numbers based on their current MRR (so lying). I've seen people announce their ARR after running their business for two whole months!
That's not really "lying" — ARR is usually understood as your projected "Annual Run Rate". It's a useful metric, as long as it is understood that it is an estimate.
But, in all honesty, all RR numbers are estimates. MRR is also a "made up number" from a certain point of view: it is not equivalent to cash received every month, because of annual subscriptions, cancelations, etc.
>But, in all honesty, all RR numbers are estimates.
Sure, but I would expect you to have at least one data point or at least near it, before making any estimates for that timescale.
I don't see many people make MRR projections based on 2 days of of sales, it's just something I've noticed with startups and ARR.
The text feels incoherent to me and lacks some nuance.
It starts about cutting costs by the choice of infrastructure and goes further to less resource hungry tools and cheaper services. But never compares the cost of these things. Do I save actually the upgrade to a bigger server by using Go and sqlite over let's say Python and postgres? Or does it not even matter when you have just n many users.
Then I do not understand why at one point the convenience of using OpenRouter is preferred over managing multiple API keys, when that should be cheaper and a cost point that could increase faster than your infrastructure costs.
There are some more points, but I do not want to write a long comment.
It actually starts with a completely unrelated anecdote:
"What do you even need funding for?"
I agree. The author claims to have multiple $10K MRR websites running on $20 costs. I also don't understand what he needs money for — shouldn't the $x0,000 be able to fund the $20 for the next project? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Then the author trails off and tells us how he runs on $20/month.
The author says he wants funding to grow the businesses. Presumably he wants funding and the help from investors to enable quicker growth than what is possible organically.
Just because you start this lean doesn’t mean you should stay that way. Perhaps he’s now spending too much time managing his stack and not enough time on product development, customer service, a/o growth.
In other words, what gets you to $10k MRR isn’t the same thing(s) for 2x, 5x, or 10x that.
SQLite is fine, but I have ran Postgresql on a $20 server without any issues, and I would suggest if you have to deal with concurrent users and tasks, Postgresql is the way to go. SQLite WAL works, but sometimes it caused some issues, when you have a lot of concurrent tasks running continuously.
And, not sure I'm correct, but I felt Postgresql has more optimized storage if you have large text data than SQLite, at least for me I had storage full with SQLite, but same application on Postgresql never had this issue
I know this article is about the stack, but I'd like to point out that the success of the author has probably more to do with their marketing/sales strategy than their choice of technical infrastructure.
What has your career looked like? I'm interested because I've spent 20 years in applied research and I've only more recently realized the continual stress that I've felt for 20 years from trying (and mostly failing) to innovate in the "what to build" space.
For me it has been just saying "yes" when I was offered a job and when that one was getting a bit annoying someone happened to offer me another and I said "yes" too. I have ended up a bit underemployed and underpaid, but life's comfortable and safe and I have ample time to stress over hobbies instead of work.
So comfortable that lately I have declined offers for interesting and much much better paid work, because I can no longer be bothered to take any risks or alter my lifestyle.
But sometimes I wish I could have been the guy managing to get 10k MMR using knowledge I've got in spades.
I think his argument is that the functionality is unnecessary. You don’t need dynamic service scaling because your single-instance service has such high capacity to begin with.
I guess it’s all about knowing when to re-engineer the solution for scale. And the answer is rarely ”up front”.
Thats true. The reason I like k8s is once you've gone up the learning curve you can apply that knowledge to cloud deployments, on prem, or in this case VPS.
The authors stack left me thinking about how will he re-start the app if it crashes, versioning, containers, infra as code.
I've seen these articles before... the Ruby on Rails guys had the same idea and built https://kamal-deploy.org/
Which starts to look more and more like K3s as time goes on.
I’m thinking even simple containers have automatic restarts. I wouldn’t deploy to prod using ”docker start” but I wouldn’t look askance at someone using “docker compose” for that purpose.
Great stack! I'm doing a similar approach for my latest project (kavla.dev) but using fly.io and their suspend feature.
Scaling to zero with database persistence using litestream has cut my bill down to $0.1 per month for my backend+database.
Granted I still don't have that many users, and they get 200ms of extra latency if the backend needs to wake up. But it's nice to never have to worry about accidental costs!
I'm taking the opposite approach - managed services all the way, and my monthly infrastructure costs are higher than what's described here.
No regrets. Infrastructure isn't the problem I'm trying to solve. The problem is: who's actually going to pay for this?
Optimizing infrastructure before you have customers is like designing a kitchen before you've written the menu. I launched within 72 hours of starting development and went straight to customer validation. The market feedback started coming in immediately.
Infrastructure costs show up in your bill. The cost of slow customer validation doesn't show up anywhere - until it's too late. That's the number I watch.
Some of this will depend on what experience you’ve got. Someone with lots of experience running Linux servers can probably stand up the sort of thing described in this article in a couple of hours from a starting point of being given the Go application source and a credit card.
It doesn’t sound like OP was optimizing anything; it sounds like they just knew how to use that stack, and so are able to get customer validation while also spending very little per month.
Fair point. Stack selection is mostly about what you already know. I chose managed services not because I optimized for it, but because that's the stack I'm comfortable with.
That said, my real point was simpler: whatever stack you pick, figure out who's going to pay for it before you spend time on infrastructure decisions.
which approach works better depends on your financial situation and your existing setup. if you have money you can invest, then your approach works. if you have more time than money then invest the time instead. when you have built up your servers over the years, when building a new product, you can also do it quickly because the services you need are already running, and firing up a new database or a new server takes just as long as it takes to set up a managed service. but it doesn't add any cost.
This is supposed to be a contrarian opinion yet this is a retoric yapped non-stop in the “build in public” community. Of course lean is a good approach, it makes sense, and most engineers know this. Is not a new concept, we’ve been doing this for years in every branch of engineering.
The invented “people start with a k8s cluster for 5 users” doesn’t really exist. This is just a story repeated ad nauseam to fit a narrative that help them justify their choices. This position is just as dogmatic, if not more, than the alleged dogma it attempts to disrupt.
Smart technical leaders knows that technical decisions only matter in context never in absolutes. The right answer is always “it depends”.
I can agree that there is a tendency to prematurely optimize infra, as a direct consequence of lack of measuring especially in young busy startups. One could argue that premature optimization might be the smart choice when you don’t have enough data, as in the best case scenario (your startup do well) you’ve saved some time, worst case scenario you’ve lost some money that depending on the situation might be less valuable than time spent in maintaining, and later refactoring, infra.
I've seen A LOT of public sector projects starting out with loads of Azure services and >$3000 montly bills for applications that could've easily run on a single VM.
This a structural problem not an awareness one. Is not like they don’t know they can run it on a 5$ VPS, the problem is that there are no incentives to do so. You’d be surprised to know how much of engineering is there to address organisational challenges rather than technical ones (ie: micro-services)
I recall reading multiple AskHN posts about people trying to get attention from a cloud provider because they ran up thousands of dollars in charges accidentally. I've seen large companies do this too, even if you think something is just a dev environment, its the cloud provider's production environment and they will charge you per their ToS for everything you use, doesn't matter what the customer usage profile looks like.
Experienced dev with limited hands-on big tech infrastructure experience. Based on the results I get from LLMs in domains I understand how get they even get this stuff running using AI?
“people start with a k8s cluster for 5 users” doesn’t really exist
Most people in the BiP these days barely know how to deploy a database or host something using nginx. it's all vercel, supabase, aws, clerk, yada yada. Cost aside, I think that people are addicted to complexity.
The basic premise, try to be lean, is a good one. The implementation will clearly be debated with everyone having their own opinion on it but the core point is sound. I'd argue a different version of this though: keeping things lean forces simplicity and focus which is incredibly important early on. I have stepped into several startups and seen a mess of old/broken/I don't know what it does so leave it/etc etc. All of that, beyond the cost, slows you down because of the complexity. Regular gardening of your tech stack matters and has a lot of benefits.
The biggest cost when bootstrapping always seemed to be your salary to me, not infra costs. How long can you pay your mortgage and feed your kids off what should be your retirement or rainy day funds?
Anyone doing per tenant database with SQLITE + Litestream? Please share your experiences and pain points. I know migrations are one. The other challenge is locating the correct database from incoming request. What else?
Similar approach here. I run a side project on Next.js + Vercel (free tier) + Neon Postgres (free tier). Total hosting cost: $0/month.
The one place I'd push back on SQLite: if your app has any write concurrency from external processes (cron jobs, webhooks), WAL mode helps but you still hit lock contention. I have data collection scripts running every 30 minutes that write to the same DB the web app reads from. Postgres handled that cleanly from day one. Neon's free tier is 512MB with connection pooling — more than enough for a side project with real data.
Do these things actually work? I've seen way too many gurus on twitter claiming to make 10K+ MRR every month. And then they quietly start applying for jobs. or selling courses instead of cashing in.
Always good to challenge the narrative - but I don't pay for RDS Postgres because of the WAL, replication, all the beauty of pg etc. I pay RDS because it's largely set and forget. I am gladly paying AWS to think about it for me. I think at a certain scale, this is a really good tradeoff. At the very beginning it could be overkill, and at the top end obviously its unsuitable - but for most of us those tradeoffs are why it's successful.
I was writing about this recently [0]. In the 2000s, we were bragging about how cheap our services are and are getting. Today, a graduate with an idea is paying $200 amounts in AWS after the student discounts. They break the bank and go broke before they have tested the idea. Programming is literally free today.
The most interesting thing in here is https://github.com/smhanov/laconic which is the author's "agentic research orchestrator for Go that is optimized to use free search & low-cost limited context window llms".
I have been doing this kind of thing with Cursor and Codex subscriptions, but they do have annoying rate limits, and Cursor on the Auto model seems to perform poorly if you ask it to do too much work, so I am keen to try out laconic on my local GPU.
EDIT:
Having tried it out, this may be a false economy.
The way it works is it has a bunch of different prompts for the LLMs (Planner, Synthesizer, Finalizer).
The "Planner" is given your input question and the "scratchpad" and has to come up with DuckDuckGo search terms.
Then the harness runs the DuckDuckGo search and gives the question, results, and scratchpad to the Synthesizer. The Synthesizer updates the scratchpad with new information that is learnt.
This continues in a loop, with the Planner coming up with new search queries and the Synthesizer updating the scratchpad, until eventually the Planner decides to give a final answer, at which point the Finalizer summarises the information in a user-friendly final answer.
That is a pretty clever design! It allows you to do relatively complex research with only a very small amount of context window. So I love that.
However I have found that the Synthesizer step is extremely slow on my RTX3060, and also I think it would cost me about £1/day extra to run the RTX3060 flat out vs idle. For the amount of work laconic can do in a day (not a lot!), I think I am better off just sending the money to OpenAI and getting the results more quickly.
But I still love the design, this is a very creative way to use a very small context window. And has the obvious privacy and freedom advantages over depending on OpenAI.
>To manage all this, I built laconic, an agentic researcher specifically optimized for running in a constrained 8K context window. It manages the LLM context like an operating system's virtual memory manager—it "pages out" the irrelevant baggage of a conversation, keeping only the absolute most critical facts in the active LLM context window.
The 8K part is the most startling to me. Is that still a thing? I worked under that constraint in 2023 in the early GPT-4 days. I believe Ollama still has the default context window set to 8K for some reason. But the model mentioned on laconic GitHub (Qwen3:4B) should support 32K. (Still pretty small, but.. ;)
I'll have to take a proper look at the architecture, extreme context engineering is a special interest of mine :) Back when Auto-GPT was a thing (think OpenClaw but in 2023), I realized that what most people were using it for was just internet research, and that you could get better results, cheaper, faster, and deterministically, by just writing a 30 line Python script.
Google search (or DDG) -> Scrape top N results -> Shove into LLM for summarization (with optional user query) -> Meta-summary.
In such straightforward, specialized scenarios, letting the LLM drive was, and still is, "swatting a fly with a plasma cannon."
(The analog these days would be that many people would be better off asking Claw to write a scraper for them, than having it drive Chromium 24/7...)
> (The analog these days would be that many people would be better off asking Claw to write a scraper for them, than having it drive Chromium 24/7...)
Possibly. But possibly you have a very long tail of sites that you hardly ever look at, and that change more frequently than you use them, and maintaining the scraper is harder work than just using Chromium.
The dream is that the Claw would judge for itself whether to write a scraper or hand-drive the browser.
That might happen more easily if LLMs were a bit lazier. If they didn't like doing drudgery they would be motivated to automate it away. Unfortunately they are much too willing to do long, boring, repetitive tasks.
Not sure if top model should be the biggest one though. I hear opposite opinions there. Small model which delegates coding to bigger models, vs big model which delegates coding to small models.
The issue is you don't want the main driver to be big, but it needs to be big enough to have common sense w.r.t. delegating both up[0] and down...
[0] i.e. "too hard for me, I will ping Opus ..." :) do models have that level of self awareness? I wanna say it can be after a failed attempt, but my failure mode is that the model "succeeds" but the solution is total ass.
>>The optimal strategy is simple: write brutally detailed prompts with strict success criteria (which is best practice anyway), tell the agent to "keep going until all errors are fixed," hit enter, and go make a coffee while Satya Nadella subsidizes your compute costs.
I think newer developers really need to learn that you can actually do production stuff using bare tools. It is not crazy, especially in the beginning, and it will save you a ton of money and time.
I get that the focus of this article is on the tech portion, but I don't know anyone pitching today (aside from OpenAI) who is asking for big funding for the tech costs. It doesn't really matter if you built a system that costs you $200/month or $20/month if your lifetime value is $1000 and CAC is only $10 but you've got no money. That's what people want to fund. VC funding is gasoline you pour on a fire (or fuel for you rocket if you're being charitable) - it makes you go faster; a pitch that focuses on "slightly lower monthly op costs" is not attractive.
This is my life goal right now. I have a bajillion ideas, know how to code them (even faster now), and just not enough time due to day job. A few questions:
How do you market them?
Is customer support an issue?
Do you see risk since ai makes it so easy to build/copy?
The biggest risk to cloud revenues is that everyone wakes up and realizes they could slash their cloud bills by 60+% quite quickly with just some minimal leaning.
I do appreciate the technical simplicity argument and I'm always advocating for it. And the few neat tricks i.e. Copilot.
That being said, I'd much rather read a few ideas for good recurring passive income. Instead, the author kind of flexes on that, then says "I get refused VC money because they don't see how their money would be useful for me" -- which is one more flex -- and moves on to the technical bits.
I concur with some of the commenters that this read as a bit of a brain dump. It has a thread connecting several loosely-related topics.
Observation #1: You can also solve the tech stack problem with Heroku. I think the author's stack probably has a steeper learning curve, but is a cheaper option. I think it's a bit of an odd comparison (I won't say straw-man, as I don't doubt some people do this) to go from a fully-controlled simple setup to using AWS with a pile of extra crap. You can also, for example, run something similar to what he or she is describing on AWS, Heroku etc. (I.e. without the things in the AWS diagram he indicated like kubernetes and load balancers.)
Observation #2: I have not found WAL mode is an antidote to SQLite locks during multiple concurrent writes. (This is anecdotal)
I think regarding Go vs Python/Ruby etc. I completely get that. I would now like to check out Go on web. I use Rust for most of my software writing, but am still on Python for web servers, because there is nothing I can use for Rust that is as powerful and easy as Django.
> If you need a little breathing room, just use a swapfile.
You should always use a swap file/partition, even if you don't want any swapping. That's because there are always cold pages and if you have no swap space that memory cannot be used for apps or buffers, it's just wasted.
I always thought I had to add a swap file to avoid crashing with OOM. I wasn't aware of the cold pages overhead.
Sometimes that crashing is what I want: a dedicated server running one (micro)service in a system that'll restart new servers on such crashes (e.g. Kubernetes-alike). I'd rather have it crash immediately rather than chugging along in degraded state.
But on a shared setup like OP shows, or the old LAMP-on-a-vps, i'd prefer the system to start swapping and have a chance to recover. IME it quite often does. Will take a few minutes (of near downtime) but will avoid data corruption or crash-loops much easier.
Basically, letting Linux handle recovery vs letting a monitoring system handle recovery
It isn’t 10k MRR from day one. It also doesn’t make sense to think “well, now that I’m a big boy let’s move to a fancy stack , even if there is no need for it”
Exactly. Deciding on some very expensive subscriptions that can cost 1k per month or so might be worth thinking about, but this is just meaningless optimisation.
not at all meaningless. unless you have money to invest, at the beginning you don't have an income. i could not afford to spend $300 a month to host a new product that doesn't make any money yet. i can afford the $20 however, but then once the product does make money, why should i change it if it works?
AWS is not value for money, I do have a DO account that is great but my development is mostly hosted locally with tunnels from cloudflare, it is remarkable how far you (I) can get with that setup.
Last I saw, AWS has way better peering agreements than DO. Lots of problems with terrible throughput and lots of dropped packets for various clients (in several cities in North America, not just overseas or in the middle of nowhere) that vanished instantly on switching to AWS (including overseas ones that were also having problems)
Unfortunately, this isn’t something that shows up on spec sheets when you’re choosing a service. :-/
Source was we used it, and that's what we saw, ~20% of clients on three continents (about half in North America) consistently had terrible connectivity to DO (not none, but it was really bad) and we spent a lot of time trying to fix it. Vanished through nothing but shifting that to AWS. It was clearly DO's peering network.
You probably won't see this unless both the following are true for your situation:
1) You have a workload that makes this issue noticeable. Long-lived connections and large transfer sizes make it more likely you'll notice. Loading 20kb of static html over the connection likely won't seem to have any problems (unless you run repeated trials and network analysis tools). Of course, modern websites can be pretty large...
2) Your users are long-term enough and in communication with you so these issues can even be noticed in the first place. Also helps if they're technical. If you're not hearing the story and aware of the situation on the other end of the line, all you see is a slow connection, could be anything causing it, and there are plenty of them for reasons that have to do with things closer to the client's end.
So all e.g. an e-commerce site might see is a somewhat higher bounce rate than necessary (due to some fraction of their users experiencing the site like it's on a somewhat-jittery ISDN line) without even knowing they're leaving money on the table because they likely have no way of even being aware of the problem.
[EDIT] Yes, we tried shifting around a bunch of ways on DO's side trying all kinds of ways to fix this, I'm quite sure it wasn't that we were unlucky with our hardware draw there or just one of their datacenters had this problem. It was something past the edge of their network.
One thing that I noticed was the mention of Claude 3.5 Sonnet or GPT-4o as cutting-edge models when the blog was written 25 days ago. This sadly makes me suspect that this was written by a LLM instead of a person...
While I applaud the acumen, this reads like watching a kid standing on the 3rd floor balcony shouting "look what I can do!"
$20/month. Yeah. Great, but why? You get a lot of peace of mind with "real" HA setup with real backups and real recovery, for not much more than $20, if you are careful.
Another half of article is about running "free, unlimited" local AI on a GPU (Santa brought it) with, apparently, free electricity (Santa pays for it).
One thing that I noticed was the mention of Claude 3.5 Sonnet or GPT-4o when the blog was written 25 days ago. This sadly makes me suspect that this was written by a LLM instead of a person...
I love SQLite and have ran it even on networked drives with queued writes for read-heavy applications. It’s an incredibly robust piece of software that’s often cost me pennies per month to serve 100k+ monthly users. But there’s definitely a time and place for solid, dedicated database servers like Postgres.
Where do you get your eh-trade.ca stock price data? Given the licensing fees, that seems like one of the greater challenges of bootstrapping anything with market data.
This is similar to what I do. Linode, Debian, Go, HTMX, SQLite (with modernc.org/SQLite so I have no CGO dependency) and Caddy. If I have apps that need a lot of storage, I just add an S3 bucket.
While I agree with your points, this one could be more nuanced:
> Infrastructure: Bare Server > Containers > Kubernetes
The problem with recommending a bare server first is that bare metal fails. Usually every couple of years a component fails - a PSU, a controller, a drive. Also, a bare metal server is more expensive than VPS.
Paradoxically, a k3s distro with 3 small nodes and a load balancer at Hetzner may cost you less than a bare metal server and will definitely give you much better availability in the long run, albeit with less performance for the same money.
In 5 years of running 3x Dell R620s 24/7 - which were already 9 years old when I got them - I had two sticks of RAM have ECC errors, and one PSU fail. The RAM technically didn’t have to be replaced, but I chose to. The PSU of course had a hot spare, so the system switched over and informed me without issue.
IME, hardware is much more reliable than people think.
The pricing is so good that it's the only way I do agentic coding now. I've never spent more than $40 in a month on Opus, and I give it large specs to work on. I usually spend $20 or so.
This is really what 10k mrr can get you? A badly designed AI slop website that isn't even mobile correctly compatible. The logo is white background on black website like a university project.
I can't believe that people are willingly spending money on this.
I have worked with healthcare clients paying gobs of money to completely broken sites that they have to call support about twice a week. I don't pretend to know why people spend money on things anymore.
You'd be surprised at the amounts household name companies spend on broken software. I've personally seen multiple companies spend tens of thousands paying just for the opportunity to evaluate the broken software. And I don't mean the time taken for their own employees to spend doing the evaluation. I mean that plus forking over large piles of cash.
Agree with a lot of this except sqlite, and the fact that if I commit to building something I typically put it in the cloud with basic scaling from the start for efficiency.
> Here is the trick that you might have missed: somehow, Microsoft is able to charge per request, not per token. And a "request" is simply what I type into the chat box. Even if the agent spends the next 30 minutes chewing through my entire codebase, mapping dependencies, and changing hundreds of files, I still pay roughly $0.04.
Really? Lol. If it's true why would you publish it? To ensure Microsoft will patch it up and fuck up your workflow?
>Really? Lol. If it's true why would you publish it? To ensure Microsoft will patch it up and fuck up your workflow?
It's true and it's their official pricing, so talking about it won't change anything.
People are spending way too much money with Claude Code while they could simply pay for GitHub Copilot and fire up OpenCode to get the same results but way cheaper.
It always make me both roll my eyes and smile a little when i see someone daft enough to think they need some obscene setup - you dont. You never have. You are not Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. If you get to the point where you need that kind of setup you're already employing a dev ops team thats telling you that.
Stick whatever you're working on onto a ~$5/mo cheapo vps from someone like Hetzner, Digitalocean, etc and just get on with building your thing.
For single-person companies infra can be the single largest expense (especially if you aren't paying yourself yet!). The day you bring a full-time employee onboard, I have a hard time seeing infra costs ever exceeding salaries for most shops
>The feedback was simply: "What do you even need funding for?"
Not clear from the text, but what was your plan using the funding on? If you did not have a plan, what did you expect? VCs want to see how adding more money results in asymmetric returns.
I was wondering this as well: Why did OP look for VC?
In my case, I've used a similar strategy of keeping costs under €100/month. (But have sold, or stopped my ventures before hitting such MRRs as OP reports).
I raised some capital to pay my own bills during development. But mostly to hire freelancers to work on parts that I'm bad at, or didn't have time for: advertising, a specific feature, a library, rewrite-in-rust (wink) or deep research into functional improvements.
Eh-trade.ca eh? The name spells the exit strategy this is seeking. Awesome idea and a great execution. Vertical scaling will take this simple setup far and probably far enough.
eh the super low cost only comes from low complexity. If complex, people pay more, features cost more, infra costs aren’t that big of a cost compared to dev time.
nice article, validates some of the things i already thought. although im sure things like aws and database servers etc are still useful for big companies
What a fascinating article. I especially love the part about writing extremely detailed requests which only cost $0.04 versus the token approach most “vibe code” devs use. Fortunately his tactic is almost impossible to emulate for 90% of the YCombinator audience / HN commentators.
Why do I know this? Because there had to be a declaration here to stop using ChatGPT and other Agents to write YOUR OWN GODDAMN POSTS. Thinking isn’t your strong suit, Greed is, and taking the time to learn the power of English doesn’t satisfy the latter, so you minimize it to your own detriment.
A lot of this advice is good or at least interesting. A lot of it is questionable. Python is completely fine for the backend. And using SQLite for your prod database is a bad idea, just use Postgres or similar.
There’s a lot to be said about his approach with go for simplicity. Python needs virtual environments, package managers, dependencies on disk, a wsgi/asgi server to run forked copies of the server, and all of that uses 4x-20x the ram usage of go. Docker usually gets involved around here and before you know it you’re neck deep in helm charts and cursing CNI configs in an EKS cluster.
The go equivalent of just coping one file across to a server a restarting its process has a lot of appeal and clearly works well for him.
Yes. It strikes me as odd how many people will put forward Python with the argument of "simplicity".
It is not. Simple. It may be "easy" but easy != simple (simple is hard, I tend to say).
I'm currently involved in a project that was initially layed out as microservices in rust and some go, to slowly replace a monolyth Django monstrosity of 12+ years tech debt.
But the new hires are pushing back and re-introducing python, eith that argument of simplicity. Sure, python is much easier than a rust equivalent. Esp in early phases. But to me, 25+ years developer/engineer, yet new to python, it's unbelievable complex.
Yes, uv solves some. As does ty and ruff. But, my goodness, what a mess to set up simple ci pipelines, a local development machine (that doesn't break my OS or other software on that machine). Hell, even the dockerfiles are magnitudes more complex than most others I've encountered.
Python will take you a long way, but its ceiling (both typical and absolute) is far lower than the likes of Go and Rust. For typical implementations, the difference may be a factor of ten. For careful implementations (of both), it can be a lot more than that.
Does the difference matter? You must decide that.
As for your dismissing SQLite: please justify why it’s a bad idea. Because I strongly disagree.
There are a myriad middle states in-between "frupid" (so frugal that it's stupid) and "Instagram scale".
Python requires much more hand-holding that many don't want to do for good reasons (I prefer to work on the product unimpeded and not feeling pride having the knowledge to babysit obsolete stacks carried by university nostalgia).
With Go, Rust, Zig, and a few others -- it's a single binary.
This is a post about keeping your infrastructure simple, so Instagram is not a good ceiling to pick. People do all kinds of hacks to scale Python before they hit Instagram levels
Unless your Cloudflare worker and the DB are scheduled onto the same physical server, they are not local to one another. I don’t know much about D1, but the overwhelming majority of cloud infra makes no such guarantees, nor are they likely to want to architect it in that manner.
Cloudflare's Durable Objects puts your Worker and SQLite DB on the same physical server (and lets you easily spawn millions of these pairs around the world).
D1 is a simplified wrapper around DO, but D1 does not put your DB on the same machine. You need to use DO directly to get local DBs.
I think the point is that your Python webapp will have more problems scaling to let's say 10,000 customers on a 5$ VPS tham Go. Of course you can always get beefier servers, but then that adds up for every project
> The enterprise mindset dictates that you need an out-of-process database server. But the truth is, a local SQLite file communicating over the C-interface or memory is orders of magnitude faster than making a TCP network hop to a remote Postgres server.
I don't want to diss SQLite because it is awesome and more than adequate for many/most web apps but you can connect to Postgres (or any DB really) on localhost over a Unix domain socket and avoid nearly all of the overhead.
It's not much harder to use than SQLite, you get all of the Postgres features, it's easier to run reports or whatever on the live db from a different box, and much easier if it comes time to setup a read replica, HA, or run the DB on a different box from the app.
I don't think running Postgres on the same box as your app is the same class of optimistic over provisioning as setting up a kubernetes cluster.
Sqlite smokes postgres on the same machine even with domain sockets [1]. This is before you get into using multiple sqlite database.
What features postgres offers over sqlite in the context of running on a single machine with a monolithic app? Application functions [2] means you can extend it however you need with the same language you use to build your application. It also has a much better backup and replication story thanks to litestream [3].
- [1] https://andersmurphy.com/2025/12/02/100000-tps-over-a-billio...
- [2] https://sqlite.org/appfunc.html
- [3] https://litestream.io/
The main problem with sqlite is the defaults are not great and you should really use it with separate read and write connections where the application manages the write queue rather than letting sqlite handle it.
> Sqlite smokes postgres on the same machine even with domain sockets [1]
for inserts only into singe table with no indexes.
Also, I didn't get why sqlite was allowed to do batching and pgsql was not.
> for inserts only into singe table with
Actually, there are no inserts in this example each transaction in 2 updates with a logical transaction that can be rolled back (savepoint). So in raw terms you are talking 200k updates per second and 600k reads per second (as there's a 75%/25% read/write mix in that example). Also worth keeping in mind updates are slower than inserts.
> no indexes.
The tables have an index on the primary key with a billion rows. More indexes would add write amplification which would affect both databases negatively (likely PG more).
> Also, I didn't get why sqlite was allowed to do batching and pgsql was not.
Interactive transactions [1] are very hard to batch over a network. To get the same effect you'd have to limit PG to a single connection (deafeating the point of MVCC).
- [1] An interactive transaction is a transaction where you intermingle database queries and application logic (running on the application).
Thing is though - either of those options is still multiple orders of magnitude faster than running on a remote host. Either will work, either will scale way farther than you reasonably expect it to.
> What features postgres offers over sqlite in the context of running on a single machine with a monolithic app
The same thing SQL itself buys you: flexibility for unforeseen use cases and growth.
Your SQLite benchmark is based in having just one write connection for SQLite but all eight writable connections for Postgres. Even in the context of a single app, not everyone wants to be tied down that way, particularly when thinking how it might evolve.
If we know our app would not need to evolve we could really maximize performance and use a bespoke database instead of an rdbms.
It seems a little aggressive for you to jump on a comment about how it’s reasonable to run Postgres sometimes with “SQLite smokes it in performance.” That’s true, when you can accept its serious constraints.
As a wise man once said, “Postgres is great and there's nothing wrong with using it!”
> Sqlite smokes postgres on the same machine even with domain sockets [1].
SQLite on the same machine is akin to calling fwrite. That's fine. This is also a system constraint as it forces a one-database-per-instance design, with no data shared across nodes. This is fine if you're putting together a site for your neighborhood's mom and pop shop, but once you need to handle a request baseline beyond a few hundreds TPS and you need to serve traffic beyond your local region then you have no alternative other than to have more than one instance of your service running in parallel. You can continue to shoehorn your one-database-per-service pattern onto the design, but you're now compelled to find "clever" strategies to sync state across nodes.
Those who know better to not do "clever" simply slap a Postgres node and call it a day.
> SQLite on the same machine is akin to calling fwrite.
Actually 35% faster than fwrite [1].
> This is also a system constraint as it forces a one-database-per-instance design
You can scale incredibly far on a single node and have much better up time than github or anthropic. At this rate maybe even AWS/cloudflare.
> you need to serve traffic beyond your local region
Postgres still has a single node that can write. So most of the time you end up region sharding anyway. Sharding SQLite is straight forward.
> This is fine if you're putting together a site for your neighborhood's mom and pop shop, but once you need to handle a request baseline beyond a few hundreds TPS
It's actually pretty good for running a real time multiplayer app with a billion datapoints on a 5$ VPS [2]. There's nothing clever going on here, all the state is on the server and the backend is fast.
> but you're now compelled to find "clever" strategies to sync state across nodes.
That's the neat part you don't. Because, for most things that are not uplink limited (being a CDN, Netflix, Dropbox) a single node is all you need.
- [1] https://sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html
- [2] https://checkboxes.andersmurphy.com
May be an "out" there question, but any tech book suggestions you'd recommend that can teach an average dev on how to build highly performant software with minimal systems?
I feel like the advice from people with your experience is worth way way way way more than what you'd hear from big tech. Like what you said yourself, big tech tends to recommend extremely complicated systems that only seem worth maintaining if you have a trillion dollar monopoly behind it.
How do you manage HA?
Backups, litestream gives you streaming replication to the second.
Deployment, caddy holds open incoming connections whilst your app drains the current request queue and restarts. This is all sub second and imperceptible. You can do fancier things than this with two version of the app running on the same box if that's your thing. In my case I can also hot patch the running app as it's the JVM.
Server hard drive failing etc you have a few options:
1. Spin up a new server/VPS and litestream the backup (the application automatically does this on start).
2. If your data is truly colossal have a warm backup VPS with a snapshot of the data so litestream has to stream less data.
Pretty easy to have 3 to 4 9s of availability this way (which is more than github, anthropic etc).
My understanding is litestream can lose data if a crash occurs before the backup replication to object storage. This makes it an unfair comparison to a Postgres in RDS for example?
Last I checked RDS uploads transaction logs for DB instances to Amazon S3 every five minutes. Litestream by default does it every second (you can go sub second with litestream if you want).
your understanding is very wrong. please read the docs or better yet the actual code.
> Backups, litestream gives you streaming replication to the second.
You seem terribly confused. Backups don't buy you high availability. At best, they buy you disaster recovery. If your node goes down in flames, your users don't continue to get service because you have an external HD with last week's db snapshots.
If anything backups are the key to high availability.
Streaming replication lets you spin up new nodes quickly with sub second dataloss in the event of anything happening to your server. It makes having a warm standby/failover trivial (if your dataset is large enough to warrant it).
If your backups are a week old snapshots, you have bigger problems to worry about than HA.
No offense, you wait. Like everyone's been doing for years in the internet and still do
- When AWS/GCP goes down, how do most handle HA?
- When a database server goes down, how do most handle HA?
- When Cloudflare goes down, how do most handle HA?
The down time here is the server crashed, routing failed or some other issue with the host. You wait.
One may run pingdom or something to alert you.
> When AWS/GCP goes down, how do most handle HA?
This is a disingenuous scenario. SQLite doesn't buy you uptime if you deploy your app to AWS/GCP, and you can just as easily deploy a proper RDBMS such as postgres to a small provider/self-host.
Do you actually have any concrete scenario that supports your belief?
> SQLite doesn't buy you uptime if you deploy your app to AWS/GCP
This is...not true of many hyperscaler outages? Frequently, outages will leave individual VMs running but affect only higher-order services typically used in more complex architectures. Folks running an SQLite on a EC2 often will not be affected.
And obviously, don't use us-east-1. This One Simple Trick can improve your HA story.
> You can scale incredibly far on a single node
Nonsense. You can't outrun physics. The latency across the Atlantic is already ~100ms, and from the US to Asia Pacific can be ~300ms. If you are interested in performance and you need to shave off ~200ms in latency, you deploy an instance closer to your users. It makes absolutely no sense to frame the rationale around performance if your systems architecture imposes a massive performance penalty in networking just to shave a couple of ms in roundtrips to a data store. Absurd.
You need regional state, or you're still back hauling to the db with all the lag.
That only solves read latency not write latency. Unless you don't care about consistency.
https://antonz.org/sqlite-is-not-a-toy-database/ — 240K inserts per second on a single machine in 2021. The problem you describe is real, but the TPS ceiling is wrong by three orders of magnitude on modern hardware.
Do you know why it is a toy? Because in a real prod environment after inserting 240k rows per second for a while you have to deal with the fact that schema evolution is required. Good luck migrating those huge tables with Sqlite ALTER table implementation
This doesn't seem like a toy but you know... realizing different systems will have different constraints.
Not everyone needs monopolistic tech to do their work. There's probably less than 10,000 companies on earth that truly need to write 240k rows/second. For everyone else, we can focus on better things.
Try doing that on a “real” DB with hundreds of millions of rows too. Anything more than adding a column is a massive risk, especially once you’ve started sharding.
Yes it might be risky. But most schema evolution changes can be done with no or minimal downtime even if you have to do then in multiple steps. When is a simple ALTER going to be totally unacetable if youare using Sqlite?
I wonder what percentage of services run on the Internet exceed a few hundred transactions per second.
I’ve seen multimillion dollar “enterprise” projects get no where close to that. Of course, they all run on scalable, cloud native infrastructure costing at least a few grand a month.
I think the better question to ask is what services peak at a few hundred transactions per second?
I mean, your "This is fine for" is almost literally the whole point of TFA, that you can go a long way, MRR-wise, with a simpler architecture.
FYI, the color gradient on your website is an easy tell that it was vibe coded: https://prg.sh/ramblings/Why-Your-AI-Keeps-Building-the-Same...
A blog that's 11 years old and uses a minimalist CSS framework https://picocss.com ?
It's a static blog that renders markdown... there's literally nothing to code, let alone vibe code.
Looks like the overhead is not insignificant:
(https://gist.github.com/leifkb/1ad16a741fd061216f074aedf1eca...)I love them both too but that might not be the best metric unless you’re planning to run lots of little read queries. If you’re doing CRUD, simulating that workflow may favor Postgres given the transactional read/write work that needs to take place across multiple concurrent connections.
> I love them both too but that might not be the best metric unless you’re planning to run lots of little read queries.
Exactly. Back in the real world,anyone who is faced with that sort of usecase will simply add memory cache and not bother with the persistence layer.
Not sure that’s always right either though. For example Mapbox used to use an SQLite database as the disk cache for map tile info. You cannot possibly store that amount of data in memory, so it’s a great use case.
This is mostly about thread communication. With SQLite you can guarantee no context switching. Postgres running on the same box gets you close but not all the way. It's still in a different process.
This. Run an app on the same box as PG and you can easily be plagued by out of memory etc (as there's memory contention between the two processes).
Most important is that that local SQLite gets proper backups, so a restore goes without issues
Gets proper backups if you back it up the right way https://sqlite.org/backup.html
Why are you comparing PostgreSQL to an in-memory SQLite instead of a file-based one? Wow, memory is faster than disk, who would have thought?
Because it doesn't make a difference, because `SELECT 1` doesn't need to touch the database:
(https://gist.github.com/leifkb/d8778422d450d9a3f103ed43258cc...)Why are you doing meaningless microbenchmarks?
Are you claiming that this does not show the speed difference between socket vs in process communication?
How about pg on Unix socket?
> Because it doesn't make a difference, because `SELECT 1` doesn't need to touch the database:
I hope you understand that your claim boils down to stating that SQLite is faster at doing nothing at all, which is a silly case to make.
The original claim being discussed is about the overhead of an in-process database vs. a database server in a separate process, not about whether SQLite or PostgreSQL have a faster database engine.
A total performance delta of <3s on ~300k transactions is indeed the definition of irrelevant.
Also:
> PostgreSQL (localhost): (. .) SQLite (in-memory):
This is a rather silly example. What do you expect to happen to your data when your node restarts?
Your example makes as much sense as comparing Valkey with Postgres and proceed to proclaim that the performance difference is not insignificant.
Would be nice to see PGLite[1] compared too
1: https://pglite.dev/
It is insignificant if you're doing 100k queries per day, and you gain a lot for your 3 extra seconds a day.
What a useful "my hello-world script is faster than your hello-world script" example.
I have used SQLite with extensions in extreme throughput scenarios. We’re talking running through it millions of documents per second in order to do disambiguation. I won’t say this wouldn’t have been possible with a remote server, but it would have been a significant technical challenge. Instead we packed up the database on S3, and each instance got a fresh copy and hammered away at the task. SQLite is the time tested alternative for when you need performance, not features
As someone who sets up a k3s cluster for a single user project I feel called out.
The thing is one you learn the technology, everything else seems more work than the "easy way".
> It's not much harder to use than SQLite, you get all of the Postgres features, it's easier to run reports or whatever on the live db from a different box, and much easier if it comes time to setup a read replica, HA, or run the DB on a different box from the app.
Isn't this idea to spend a bit more effort and overhead to get YAGNI features exactly what TFA argues against?
I've been doing that for decades.. People seem to simply not know about unix architecture.
What I like about sqlite is that it's simply one file
But ... when you use the WAL mode, you have 3 files :-)
Thats just swapping another enterprise focused concern into the mix. Your database connection latency is absolutely not a concerning part of your system.
you also get a much better query execution engine, so if you need to run reports or analytics they will be faster
I mean, you’re not wrong about the facts, but it’s also pretty trivial to migrate the data from SQLite into a separate Postgres server later, if it turns out you do need those features after all. But most of the time, you don’t.
I bet that takes more time than the 5 extra minutes you take to setup Postgres in the same box upfront.
To export a database? Probably even faster. And that's ignoring the difference in performance.
So you are migrating from Sqlite to Postgres because you need it. What is the state of your product when you need to do this migration? Is your product non trivial? Are you now dependent on particular performance characteristics of Sqlite? Do you now need to keep your service running 24/7? Accounting for all of that takes way more than 5 minutes. The only way to beat that is if you still have a toy product and you can just export the database and import it and pray that it all works as a migration strategy.
Author's own 'auth' project works with sqlite and postgres.
IIRC TCP/IP through localhost actually benchmarked faster than Unix sockets because it was optimized harder. Might've been fixed now. Unix sockets gives you the advantage of authentication based on the user ID of who's connecting.
My experience with sqlite for server-based apps has been that as your app grows, you almost always eventually need something bigger than sqlite and need to migrate anyway. For a server-based app, where minimizing deployment complexity isn't an extremely important concern, and with mixed reads and writes, it's rarely a bad idea to use Postgres or MariaDB from the start. Yes there are niche scenarios where sqlite on the server might be better, but they're niche.
ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE NEWS
If this sounds like basic advice, consider there are a lot of people out there that believe they have to start with serverless, kubernetes, fleets of servers, planet-scale databases, multi-zone high-availability setups, and many other "best practices".
Saying "you can just run things on a cheap VPS" sounds amateurish: people are immediately out with "Yeah but scaling", "Yeah but high availability", "Yeah but backups", "Yeah but now you have to maintain it" arguments, that are basically regurgitated sales pitches for various cloud platforms. It's learned helplessness.
When I was a consultant we would plan out 25 piece cloud deployments for little pie in the sky apps that would never see more than 200 users. Everyone has been trained that 'cloud' means a lot of expensive moving parts and doesn't stop to plan their deployments beyond that.
Digital ocean has Kubernetes ffs.
It's all of five minutes to write a deployment yaml and ingress and have literally anything on the web for a handful of dollars a month.
I've written rust services doing 5k QPS on DO's cheapest kube setup.
It's not rocket science.
Serverless node buns with vite reacts are more complicated than this.
Ten lines of static, repeatable, versioned yaml config vs a web based click by click deploy installer with JavaScript build pipelines and magical well wishes that the pathing and vendor specific config are correct.
And don't tell me VPS FTP PHP or sshing into a box to special snowflake your own process runner are better than simple vanilla managed kube.
You can be live on the web from zero in 5 minutes with Digital Ocean kube, and that's counting their onboarding.
Don’t forget that people involved in information technology procurement will pay very large sums of the company’s money to not have to understand anything.
Hmm backups seems like an important one.
Yes, and is super easy.
I do like this: cron to run the backup and then rsync to https://www.rsync.net, then an after script that check it was run and post to my telegram the analysis.
That is.
“Guys, we need to postpone our beta launch! We need another week to implement a backup strategy with point in time recovery!”
You don’t need backups until you have customers.
So go live without testing the backup in the beta at all?
Yes! Why build a backup process before you know you have data worth backing up.
The data recovery process needs to be validated too, preferably before customer data actually needs to be recovered.
Why go live if you don't have a reasonable expectation of users?
Worrying about HA when you don't have customers that need it is one thing, but I wouldn't want to be in a place where I have to put a banner on the website asking users to please make a new account because we had an oopsie.
And also incredibly trivial to fix. Most VPS providers include their own backup services, and for the rest there's rsnapshot and some other cheaper VPS somewhere else to keep it "off site."
Too many have forgotten what it means to administrate a single system. You can do a lot with very simple tooling.
“Cloud-native natives” had so much free plans that had no need to understand what a basic app really needs.
And now big tech often doesn't even have the high availability to show for all that complexity.
The better availability and scalability of “the cloud” always relied on so many things being done and maintained just right by just the right people that I don’t think it’s ever been broadly true.
You get such a large performance malus and increase in complexity right from the start with The Cloud that it’ starts at a serious deficit, and only eventually maybe overcomes that to be overall beneficial with the right workload, people, and processes. Most companies are lacking minimum two of those to justify “the cloud”.
And that’s without even considering the cost.
What I think it actually is, is a way for companies that can’t competently (I mean at an organizational/managerial level) maintain and adequately make-available computing resources, to pay someone else to do it. They’re so bad at that, that they’re willing to pay large costs in money, performance, and maybe uptime to get it.
Remember if you ever feel disappointed, the king of scale Google playstore updates stats once a day
Apparently the phrase cargo cult software engineering is not common anymore. Explains these things perfectly.
I end up explaining this term to every junior developer that doesn't know it sooner or later, the same way I explain bike shedding to all PMs that don't know it... often sooner, rather than later.
It seems to really help if you can put a term to it.
Heh, I was gonna say cargo cult might mean something different in today’s programming landscape but then I thought about it for a second and it actually reinforces th meaning.
I don't know what to say. People keep saying these engineers exist and here I am not having seen a single, and I follow many indie hackers communities.
A devops coworker found my blog and asked me how I host it, is it Kubernetes. I told him it's a dedicated server and he seemed amazed. And this was just a blog. It's real
Does your coworker run a blog on k8s?
None of them self host anything at all. It's like that skill was totally skipped. But they advise and consult on infra
Well, by the time you are hiring a dedicated infra role, you should be past the single VPS stage.
My point is that none of these coworkers have ever been at that stage. He was surprised about me hosting something because he seems to think hosting is expensive and for companies. Straight in at the top end of k8s and microservices
There's plenty of people that got a CS degree and went to work and this is only a job for them, they have no interest outside of work. Unfortunately I'm not one of those people so I get off work troubleshooting issues to troubleshoot issues at home lol though there aren't that many just my choice to self host cameras through HomeKit sometimes falls apart somehow but im also squeezing every KB or RAM out of that beelink I can.
Don't get me wrong I don't think a homelab is necessary, but I think people who have only done this in a big corporate environment are doing themselves a disservice - either a small company or a homelab can fix that itch, but like you say a lot of people don't have the interest
It's like a developer who went straight from knowing nothing about programming to JavaScript and never looked back. They missed C, they missed assembly, they missed cycle counting, they missed knowing what your memory footprint is at all times in your application, they missed keeping your inner loops tight and in the cache... It's not just "oh this person doesn't have a nerdy hobby." These are real skill holes in [many] developers' backgrounds, just like knowing how to host something on bare metal+OS is a real skill hole for some devops people.
I've worked at a startup that could've trivially ran on a single VPS and kept things simple yet had a dedicated infra guy using a full k8s setup.
I once interviewed for a small print shop that was proudly throwing out every AWS product name when describing their stack. They serve a few hundred customers and their previous system worked for decades entirely over email and a web form. I decided I wasn't interested around the point where he explained how they're migrating to lambdas
LOL, I'm laughing and I wish it was because this was funny rather than terrifying.
hey - devs aren' the only ones who fall in the premature optimization trap! Everyone from the CTO envisioning the scale of their future startup down to the IT intern is influenced by this, plus it's in the best interest of a dedicated infra guy to have a lot of dedicated infra. If you don't manage people K8s can become your kingdom and the size a badge of importance.
In this case I think it was a bit of CTO envisioning scale, then a bit of CTO genuinely overestimating what is needed, plus a good amount of CTO just being the average nerdy dev who likes the idea of shiny toys and cool sounding stuff - "we're running on k8s!".
A year or so after I left they ran out of money. They would've lasted longer if the infra guy would've just stayed the backend guy and helped get projects done more quickly instead of shiny k8s setups for projects with a dozen end-users per day. Recently I saw that the CTO has started a new startup - and ironically the only guy who he took with him onto the new team looks to have been the infra guy!
I don't blame infra guy, he genuinely believed he was doing the right thing.
How else are you going to put k8s on your CV? :-P
Because I think precisely the indie hacker community is not as keen to default to the big-tech stacks, because those are neither indie, nor hack-y :)
> I use Linode or DigitalOcean. Pay no more than $5 to $10 a month. 1GB of RAM sounds terrifying to modern web developers, but it is plenty if you know what you are doing.
If you get one dedicated server for multiple separate projects, you can still keep the costs down but relax those constraints.
For example, look at the Hetzner server auction: https://www.hetzner.com/sb/
I pay about 40 EUR a month for this:
I put Proxmox on it and can have as many VMs as the IO pressure of the OSes will permit: https://www.proxmox.com/en/ (I cared mostly about storage so got HDDs in RAID 0, others might just get a server with SSDs)You could have 15 VMs each with 4 GB of RAM and it would still come out to around 2.66 EUR per month per VM. It's just way more cost efficient at any sort of scale (number of projects) when compared to regular VPSes, and as long as you don't put any trash on it, Proxmox itself is fairly stable, being a single point of failure aside.
Of course, with refurbished gear you'd want backups, but you really need those anyways.
Aside from that, Hetzner and Contabo (opinions vary about that one though) are going to be more affordable even when it comes to regular VPS hosting. I think Scaleway also had those small Stardust instances if you want something really cheap, but they go out of stock pretty quickly as well.
Wouldn't be easier and more efficient to just run docker containers?
Agreed. Though, now that hetzner has increased pricing, OVH is quite competitively priced and has some newer hardware available.
Why VMs over containers?
Mostly to have stronger separation, I'm sure the person who prefers VM-per-project also has their own reasons.
I just have a few large VMs, each a different environment with slightly different ways how I treat them - the prod ones get more due diligence and being careful, whereas all of the dev ones (including where I host Gitea, Woodpecker CI, Nextcloud, Kanboard, Uptime Kuma etc.) I mess around with the configuration in and do restarts more often. I personally used to run a Docker Swarm cluster, but now just use Docker Compose with Ansible directly, still multiple stacks per each of those servers, dead simple
So my setup ended up being:
Works very well, plus containers allow me to easily have consistent configuration management, networking, resource limits and persistent storage.What do you do about ipv4 ? Do you also use a routing VM to manage all that ?
It’s very interesting how people rent large VMs with a hypervisor. I’m wondering if licenses for VPS have any clauses preventing this for commercial scale.
Why not just Nginx Proxy Manager? Solves both the Proxy issue as well as TLS/SSL.
https://nginxproxymanager.com/
I help my dad run a proxmox setup on a server he's got from a local craigslist analog and put on a co-location in a datacenter. It only uses a single public IP. All VMs are in a "virtual intranet", and the host itself acts like a router (giving local IP addresses to VMs via dnsmasq, routing VM internet access via NAT, forwarding specific outside ports to specific VMs). For example ports 80, 443 are given to a dedicated "nginx vm" which then will route a request to a specific VM depending on the hostname.
Hetzner has some docs: https://docs.hetzner.com/robot/dedicated-server/ip/additiona...
Since I only needed about 3 VMs (though each being a bit beefier, running containers on them, a web server sitting in front of those with vhosts as ingress), I could give each VM its own IPv4 address and it didn’t end up being too expensive for my use case. Would be a bit different for someone who wants many small VMs.
There are security benefits of not having public IPs on every VM.
I assign few VMs public IPs and use them as ingress / SSL termination / load balancer for my workloads running on VMs with only internal IPs.
I personally use kvm with libvirt and manage all these with Ansible.
I quite like the websequencediagram. looks like a cool product!
He's mainly talking about the tech implementation which is the easy part.
the hard part of creating a business is finding a problem valuable enough to solve and reaching the users who need that problem solved. that's where the real value is.
This is the most frustrating problem I have. I do my 40 hours per week, play with my kids, relax with the wife, and play some video games. I don't really have any other problems besides not enough time in the day. And yet when I learn about some domain specific problem, it is blindingly obvious.
Nice list! I'd say the SQLite with WAL is the biggest money saver mentioned.
One note: you can absolutely use Python or Node just as well as Go. There's Hetzner that offers 4GB RAM, 10TB network (then 1$/TB egress), 2CPUs machines for 5$.
Two disclaimers for VPS:
If you're using a dedicated server instead of a cloud server, just don't forget to backup DB to a Storage box often (3$ /mo for 1TB, use rsync). It's a good practice either way, but cloud instances seem more reliable to hardware faults. Also avoid their object store.
You are responsible for security. I saw good devs skipping basic SSH hardening and get infected by bots in <1hr. My go-to move when I spin up servers is a two-stage Terraform setup: first, I set up SSH with only my IP allowed, set up Tailscale and then shutdown the public SSH IP entrypoint completely.
Take care and have fun!
Personally for backups I’d avoid using a product provided by the same company as the VM I’m backing up. You should be defending against the individual VM suffering corruption of some kind, needing to roll back to a previous version because of an error you made, and finally your VM provider taking a dislike to you (rationally or otherwise) and shutting down your account.
If you’re backing up to a third party losing your account isn’t a disaster, bring up a VM somewhere else, restore from backups, redirect DNS and you’re up and running again. If the backups are on a disk you can’t access anymore then a minor issue has just escalated to an existential threat to your company.
Personally I use Backblaze B2 for my offsite backups because they’re ridiculously cheap, but other options exist and Restic will write to all of them near identically.
About security, wall of shame story,
Once I had Postgresql db with default password on a new vps, and forgetting to disable password based login, on a server with no domain. And it got hacked in a day, and was being used as bot server. And that was 10 years ago.
Recently deployed server, and was getting ssh login attempts within an hour, and it didn't had a domain. Fortunately, I've learned my lesson, and turned of password based login as soon as the server was up and running.
And similar attempts bogged down my desktop to halt.
Having an machine open to the world is now very scary. Thanks God for service like tailscale exists.
Nothing would happen, ssh is designed to be open to the world. Using tailscale or a vpn to hide your IP is fine, but using tailscale ssh maybe not.
Well continuous attempts definitely bogged down my desktop pretty bad. Also, getting OOM on a 64gb machine multiple times a day is quiet annoying.
And one simple mistake, and we're screwed
If sshd is OOMing on 64GB something else is going on…
> Nice list! I'd say the SQLite with WAL is the biggest money saver mentioned.
Funny you said that. I migrated an old, Django web site to a slightly more modern architecture (docker compose with uvicorn instead of bare metal uWSGI) the other day, and while doing that I noticed that it doesn't need PostgreSQL at all. The old server had it already installed, so it was the lazy choice.
I just dumped all data and loaded it into an SQLite database with WAL and it's much easier to maintain and back up now.
Yep, it literally is a one-file backup. And runtime it's so much faster for apps where write serialisation is acceptable.
Sqlite + Litestream for backups.
I need more info about devs getting infected over ssh in less than an hour. Unless they had a comically weak root password or left VNC I don't believe it at all
Yes, <1h was a weak root password. All attacks I've seen directly were always user error. The point is effectively removing attack surfaces rather than enhancing security in needlessly exposed internet-facing protocols.
It must have been comically weak, like "root", "password" or something like that
> You are responsible for security. I saw good devs skipping basic SSH hardening and get infected by bots in <1hr. My go-to move when I spin up servers is a two-stage Terraform setup: first, I set up SSH with only my IP allowed, set up Tailscale and then shutdown the public SSH IP entrypoint completely.
Note that you don't need all of that to keep your SSH server secure. Just having a good password (ideally on a non-root account) is more than enough.
I'd call it unnecessary exposure. Under both modern threat models and classic cybernetic models (check out law of requisite variety) removing as much surface attack area as possible is optimal. Especially disabling passwords in SSH is infosec 1o1 these days. No need to worry about brute force attacks, credential stuffing, or simple human error, which was the cause of all attacks I've seen directly.
It's easier to add a small config to Terraform to make your config at least key-based.
Disable password auth and go with key based, it's easier and more secure.
Does WAL really offer multiple concurrent writers? I know little about DBs and I've done a couple of Google searches and people say it allows concurrent reads while a write is happening, but no concurrent writers?
Not everybody says so... So, can anyone explain what's the right way to think about WAL?
No, it does not allow concurrent writes (with some exceptions if you get into it [0]). You should generally use it only if write serialisation is acceptable. Reads and writes are concurrent except for the commit stage of writes, which SQLite tries to keep short but is workload- and storage-dependent.
Now this is more controversial take and you should always benchmark on your own traffic projections, but:
consider that if you don't have a ton of indexes, the raw throughput of SQLite is so good that on many access patterns you'd already have to shard a Postgres instance anyway to surpass where SQLite single-write limitation would become the bottleneck.
[0] https://www.sqlite.org/src/doc/begin-concurrent/doc/begin_co...
No it doesn't - it allows a single writer and concurrent READs at the same time.
Thanks! even I run a sqlite in "production" (is it production if you have no visitors?) and WAL mode is enabled, but I had to work around concurrent writes, so I was really confused. I may have misunderstood the comments.
Writes are super fast in SQLite even if they are not concurrent.
If you were seeing errors due to concurrent writes you must adjust BUSY_TIMEOUT
Thanks I'll have a look. For now I just had a sane retry strategy. Not that I have any traffic, mind you :-)))
First step is to get ssh setup correctly, and second step is to enable a firewall to block incoming connections on everything except the key ports (ssh but on a different port/web/ssl). This immediately eliminates a swathe of issues!
Also use fail2ban. If nothing else to decrease the amount of junk in logs.
> Also avoid their object store.
Curious as to why you say this. I’m using litestream to backup to Hetzner object storage, and it’s been working well so far.
I guess itt’s probably more expensive than just a storage box?
Not sure but I also don’t have to set up cron jobs and the like.
Historical reliability and compatibility. They claimed they were S3 compatible, but they were requiring deprecated S3 SDKs, plus S3 advanced features are unimplemented (but at least they document it [0]). There was constant timeouts for object creation and updates, very slow speeds and overall instability. Even now, if you check out r/hetzner on reddit, you'll see it's a reliability nightmare (but take it with a grain of salt, nobody reports lack of problems). Not as relevant for DB backups, but billing is dumb, even if you upload a 1KB file, they charge you for 64KB.
At least with Storage Box you know it's just a dumb storage box. And you can SSH, SFTP, Samba and rsync to it reliably.
[0] https://docs.hetzner.com/storage/object-storage/supported-ac...
When creating a VPS on Hetzner, it lets you by default to configure the key auth only.
From memory this is the case on DO as well
I do agree that the overall tendency towards cloud has made things much more complicated and expensive than they need to be in many cases. Cloud has its place, but so do simple server instances. Many projects won't reach any kind of scale that would exceed the capabilities of a medium-sized VPS. We're running a page with 600k users at work that could easily fit on a 30€ VPS. Instead, we moved to AWS and are now paying 800€ for it. No benefits whatsoever.
So yea, stick with what worked for decades if you don't see a reason not to. Also, I remember reading that StackOverflow runs on a bunch of super powerful root servers?
There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM. By paying $20 instead of $5 you can get at least 8gb of RAM. You can use it for caches or a database that supports concurrent writes. The $15 difference won’t make any financial difference if you are trying to run a small business.
Thinking about on how to fit everything on a $5 VPS does not help your business.
$15 is not exactly zero, is it? If you don't need more than 1GB, why pay anything for more than 1GB?
I recall running LAMP stacks on something like 128MB about 20 years ago and not really having problems with memory. Most current website backends are not really much more complicated than they were back then if you don't haul in bloat.
It is. With 10k MRR it represents 0.15% of the revenue. Having the whole backend costing that much for a company selling web apps is like it’s costing zero.
You probably don't make 10k MMR on day one. If you make many small apps, it can make sense to learn how to run things lean to have 4x longer runway per app.
The runway is going to be your time and attention span, not $10/mo.
I don't know what you value your time or opportunity cost as... but the $10/mo doesn't need to save very many minutes of your time deferring dealing with a resource constraint or add too much reliability to pay off.
If resource limitations end up upsetting one end user, that costs more than $10.
This assumes you have to spend any time or attention worrying. 1GB is plenty of memory for backend type stuff.
And most VPSs allow increasing memory with a click of a button and a reboot.
Overspending for the sake of overspending is not smart in life or business.
Saving 15 USD on 10k+ USD MMR is ridiculous.
Saving 15 USD on 0 USD MMR while still building the business is priceless. Virtually infinite runway.
Given how much revenue depends on the experience of a web app and loading times, I’d be happy to pay 100$ a month on that revenue if I don’t have to sacrifice a second of additional loading time no matter how clever I was optimizing it.
That 1 second of loading time probably has more to do with heavy frontends and third-party scripts, than the backend server's capacity.
$100 is peanuts to most businesses, of course. But even so, I'd rather spend it on fixing an actual bottleneck.
Not all businesses depend on milliseconds being shaved off the loading times
For example: Ticketmaster makes a ton of money and their site is complete dogshit.
There’s a happy medium and $5 for 1GB RAM just isn’t it.
Be sure to inform the author of the article who is currently making money on his 1GB VPS that he hasn’t found a happy medium
Not a very strong argument now is it?
if the project already has positive revenue then arguably the ability to capture new users is worth a lot, which requires acceptable performance even when a big traffic surge is happening (like a HN hug of attention)
if the scalability is in the number of "zero cost" projects to start, then 5 vs 15 is a 3x factor.
NVME read latency is around 100usec, a SQLite3 database in the low terabytes needs somewhere between 3-5 random IOs per point lookup, so you're talking worst case for an already meaningful amount of data about 0.5ms per cold lookup. Say your app is complex and makes 10 of these per request, 5 ms. That leaves you serving 200 requests/sec before ever needing any kind of cache.
That's 17 million hits per day in about 3.9 MiB/sec sustained disk IO, before factoring in the parallelism that almost any bargain bucket NVME drive already offers (allowing you to at least 4x these numbers). But already you're talking about quadrupling the infrastructure spend before serving a single request, which is the entire point of the article.
You won't get such numbers on a $5 VPS, the SSDs that are used there are network attached and shared between users.
Not quite $5, but a $6.71 Hetzner VPS
Rereading this, I have no idea where 3.9 MiB/sec came from, that 200 requests/sec would be closer to 8 MiB/sec
> There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM
There is a good reason: teaching yourself not to over-engineer, over-provision, or overthink, and instead to focus on generating business value to customers and getting more paying customers. I think it’s what many engineers are keen to overlook behind fun technical details.
> There is a good reason: teaching yourself not to over-engineer, over-provision, or overthink, (...)
This is specious reasoning. You don't prevent anything by adding artificial constraints. To put things in perspective, Hetzner's cheapest vCPU plan comes with 4GB of RAM.
If I give you a box with 1 GiB of RAM, you are literally forced to either optimize your code to run in it, or accept the slowdown from paging. How is this specious?
Why not a box with 128MB of RAM then?
> If I give you a box with 1 GiB of RAM, you are literally forced to either optimize your code to run in it, or accept the slowdown from paging. How is this specious?
It is specious reasoning. Self-imposing arbitrary constraints don't make you write good, performant code. At most it makes your apps run slower because they will needlessly hit your self-impose arbitrary constraints.
If you put any value on performant code you just write performance-oriented code, regardless of your constraints. It's silly to pile on absurd constraints and expect performance to be an outcome. It's like going to the gym and work out with a hand tied behind your back, and expect this silly constraints to somehow improve the outcome of your workout. Complete nonsense.
And to drive the point home, this whole concern is even more perplexing as you are somehow targeting computational resources that fall below free tiers of some cloud providers. Sheer lunacy.
Constraints provide feedback. Real-world example from my job: we have no real financial constraints for dev teams. If their poor schema or query design results in SLO breaches, and they opt to upsize their DB instead of spending the effort to fix the root problem, that is accepted. They have no incentive to do otherwise, because there are no constraints.
I think your analogy is flawed; a more apt one would be training with deliberately reduced oxygen levels, which trains your body to perform with fewer resources. Once you lift that constraint, you’ll perform better.
You’re correct that you can write performant code without being required to do so, but in practice, that is a rare trait.
The gym analogy fails. Isolation exercises are almost exactly what you described. They target individual muscles to maximize hypertrophy, i.e. "improve the outcome of your workout."
I think we have to re-think and re-evaluate RAM usage on modern systems that use swapping with CPU-assisted page compression and fast, modern NVMe drives.
The Macbook Neo with 8GB RAM is a showcase of how people underistimated its capabilities due to low amount of RAM before launch, yet after release all the reviewers point to a larger set of capabilities without any issues that people didn't predict pre-launch.
$5 VPS disks are nowhere near macbooks, they are shared between users and often connected via network. They don't seat close to CPU.
Also, macOS is generally exceptional at caching and making efficient use of the fast solid state chips.
Memory compression sounds like going back to DOS days. I think we're better off with writing tighter more performant code with no YAGNI. Alas, vibe coding will probably not get us there anytime soon.
Or better yet, go with a euro provider like Hetzner and get 8GB of RAM for $10 or so. :)
Even their $5 plan gives 4GB.
I've been using Linode for years and just yday went to use Hetzner for a new VPS and they wanted my home address and passport. No thanks.
They also have servers in the US (east and west coast).
I don't think they offer their cheapest options (CX*) outside of Germany/Finland though. Singapore and USA are a bit pricier.
The reason would be YAGNI. Apparently 1GB doesn’t constitute an actual limit for OP’s use case. I’m sure he’ll upgrade if and when the need arises.
> "There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM"
> Immediately proposes alternative which is literally 4x the cost.
Hetzner, OVH and others offer 4-8gb and 2-4 cores for the same ~5$
It doesn't look like they think about how to make it fit though. They just use a known good go template
Where can you get 8GB for $20?
> There are zero reasons to limit yourself to 1GB of RAM. By paying $20 instead of $5 you can get at least 8gb of RAM.
In my head, I call this the 'doubling algorithm'.
If there's anything that's both relatively cheap and useful, but where "more" (either in quality or quantity) has additional utility, 2x it.
Then 2x it again.
Repeat until either: the price change becomes noticeable or utility stops being gained.
Tl;dr -- saving order-of single dollars is rarely worth the tradeoffs.
> I bought a GitHub Copilot subscription in 2023, plugged it into standard VS Code, and never left. I tried Cursor and the other fancy forks when they briefly surpassed it with agentic coding, but Copilot Chat always catches up.
> Here is the trick that you might have missed: somehow, Microsoft is able to charge per request, not per token. And a "request" is simply what I type into the chat box. Even if the agent spends the next 30 minutes chewing through my entire codebase, mapping dependencies, and changing hundreds of files, I still pay roughly $0.04.
> The optimal strategy is simple: write brutally detailed prompts with strict success criteria (which is best practice anyway), tell the agent to "keep going until all errors are fixed," hit enter, and go make a coffee while Satya Nadella subsidizes your compute costs.
Wow. I'll definitely be investigating this!
People get banned abusing this per request strategy so be careful. This guy was running super long prompts per request and is somehow surprised why they got banned.
https://old.reddit.com/r/GithubCopilot/comments/1r0wimi/if_y...
The author refers to gpt 4o and sonnet 3.5 as SOTA. I’d take the AI tips with a grain of salt tbh. But I’d love it if it’s true
It works with all models, some have a cost multiplier like Opus 4.6 ”charges” 3 requests per prompt, but its still only for the prompts you send yourself - even if it works on the issue for hours. GPT-5.4 has no multiplier i.e. costs 0.04$ per prompt.
Worth noting however that they are starting to introduce rate limits lately so you might struggle to run multiple concurrent sessions, though this is very inconsistent for me. Some days I can run 3-4 sessions concurrently all day, other times I get rate limited if I run one non-stop..
Thanks for the downvote kind stranger. Not sure what I said to qualify
You copypasted three paragraphs from the article and you contributed "wow".
I learned nothing. Most of this seems like common basic advice, wrapped up in AI written paragraphs...
Initially from the title, I thought it would be about brainstorming and launching a successful idea, and that sort of thing.
Usually when there's "on a [low] $/mo" you'll hear basic advice. You'd be surprised to find out many folks are not aware of this!
Well, there's also the "How we saved $10M/mo by actually paying attention to indexes" trope.
If you feel like it: start a blog! You have knowledge that you consider basic and a certain other subset of the population is interested in it and doesn't know it exists.
> Sometimes you need the absolute cutting-edge reasoning of Claude 3.5 Sonnet or GPT-4o
Dead giveaway
Maybe it's tongue-in-cheek.
Upon rereading, I'd agree. Fits with the tone of the rest of the write up.
I think it's good. I've definitely seen resource inflation exactly that OP is alluding to in enterprise. A desire to have some huge cloud based solution with AWS, spark bla bla when a python script with pandas in a cron job was faster.
Not only that, his whole business model seems to be "profit off the AI bubble and get the big techs to indirectly subsidize you"
Which obviously works, it's not like there aren't tons of multi-million startups ultimately doing the exact same thing, and yet. It feels a bit... trite?
Just in case, if there are others like me who where wondering what does "MRR" means, it seems to be "monthly recurring revenue".
I'm just curious but is it the case that you signed up here 16 years ago and you didn't know what MRR means?
Not everybody who reads HN is well versed in business/entrepreneur oriented jagon.
Yes. Clearly. But is the irony really lost on you?
HN means HackerNews btw, for those 15 year accounts that don't know the jargon
Haha ^^'.
Honestly, yes. I'm on HN for tech content, I don't really care about startups and the business side of things, even though sometimes there are interesting reads on this side as well. Also, it may very well be the case that I rediscover the meaning of MRR for the second or third time in sixteen years :).
I'm jealous of you, like seriously, you somehow haven't worked at a company where a C suite says MRR like every 5th sentence in meeting.
I was also curious about that, I would've thought especially in 2010 the startup ethos would've been more prevalent on HN whereas these days it's more about AI and big tech.
There was always tech content. I'd say it was even a more important part back in the days, and it was more diverse. There were always some trends (Ruby on Rails, Rust, etc.) but it was never like these days with LLM-related content which is almost all of the tech content. Because of that I've gone back to Reddit like two years ago, and now spend even more time there than here, which hadn't been the case in almost 15 years before that.
Where on reddit? It's even more LLM heavy than HN.
French subreddits, coffee subreddits, free software and free culture subreddits, specific programming languages subreddits, computer science subreddits, and yes, general tech subreddits which are also flooded with AI stuff, but I feel that it makes a significant difference that users can still downvote links there, which hasn't been possible in years on HN (not saying that it's a bad thing, just that it's a significant difference).
Obviously they are lacking the sigma hustle grindset.
Its like not having syphilis or cancer, its a good thing.
They haven't also worked at a company where the meetings have MRR said like every 4 seconds. I'm so jealous of them
Says the guy with almost 5k HN comments in less than 5 years
I try to limit it to just 1-2 comments after my 4am ice facial and then no more than 4 comments while I am having my 3pm youth blood infusion.
Consistency is key for the grindset.
I was about to say: welcome to HN
There is also ARR which is "annual recurring revenue" and you should know that when people use ARR they usually are just making up numbers based on their current MRR (so lying). I've seen people announce their ARR after running their business for two whole months!
That's not really "lying" — ARR is usually understood as your projected "Annual Run Rate". It's a useful metric, as long as it is understood that it is an estimate.
But, in all honesty, all RR numbers are estimates. MRR is also a "made up number" from a certain point of view: it is not equivalent to cash received every month, because of annual subscriptions, cancelations, etc.
>But, in all honesty, all RR numbers are estimates.
Sure, but I would expect you to have at least one data point or at least near it, before making any estimates for that timescale. I don't see many people make MRR projections based on 2 days of of sales, it's just something I've noticed with startups and ARR.
2 days is optimum, you can fit a nice curve - 1, 2 ... at the current rate we will have 536,870,912 by day 30.
Nice, the investors will be overjoyed to hear this.
I am pleased to announce I am raising another round of funding for these overjoyed investors to increase their holdings at a much higher valuation.
Rather than lying, I think of it more as financial dead reckoning.
The text feels incoherent to me and lacks some nuance.
It starts about cutting costs by the choice of infrastructure and goes further to less resource hungry tools and cheaper services. But never compares the cost of these things. Do I save actually the upgrade to a bigger server by using Go and sqlite over let's say Python and postgres? Or does it not even matter when you have just n many users. Then I do not understand why at one point the convenience of using OpenRouter is preferred over managing multiple API keys, when that should be cheaper and a cost point that could increase faster than your infrastructure costs.
There are some more points, but I do not want to write a long comment.
It actually starts with a completely unrelated anecdote:
"What do you even need funding for?"
I agree. The author claims to have multiple $10K MRR websites running on $20 costs. I also don't understand what he needs money for — shouldn't the $x0,000 be able to fund the $20 for the next project? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Then the author trails off and tells us how he runs on $20/month.
Well, why did you apply for funding? Hello?
The author says he wants funding to grow the businesses. Presumably he wants funding and the help from investors to enable quicker growth than what is possible organically.
Yes, "presumably." That's exactly the problem..
Just because you start this lean doesn’t mean you should stay that way. Perhaps he’s now spending too much time managing his stack and not enough time on product development, customer service, a/o growth.
In other words, what gets you to $10k MRR isn’t the same thing(s) for 2x, 5x, or 10x that.
One can only assume the funding was needed to be able to afford K8s and postgres? /s
SQLite is fine, but I have ran Postgresql on a $20 server without any issues, and I would suggest if you have to deal with concurrent users and tasks, Postgresql is the way to go. SQLite WAL works, but sometimes it caused some issues, when you have a lot of concurrent tasks running continuously.
And, not sure I'm correct, but I felt Postgresql has more optimized storage if you have large text data than SQLite, at least for me I had storage full with SQLite, but same application on Postgresql never had this issue
Plus, if/when you start caring about HA, it will be easier.
I know this article is about the stack, but I'd like to point out that the success of the author has probably more to do with their marketing/sales strategy than their choice of technical infrastructure.
Something to remind to many tech folks on HN
Is it success or is the author running a 20k ad program to get 10k MRR. Such a useless metric.
Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. Such a great adage.
Since I'm in finance I would say, Turnover is vanity, positive cashflow is sanity...but its not nearly as catchy
100% true. I ran a top 10 most visited Spanish language site on a Pentium III server. I have the technical chops to do all the articles says.
But 10k MRR sounds to me like travelling to Mars. I have 0 ideas and 0 initiative to push them ahead.
Yeah, 25 years in the industry, zero business ideas right here.
I can build whatever, I just have zero clue whatsoever what to build. Never have.
What has your career looked like? I'm interested because I've spent 20 years in applied research and I've only more recently realized the continual stress that I've felt for 20 years from trying (and mostly failing) to innovate in the "what to build" space.
For me it has been just saying "yes" when I was offered a job and when that one was getting a bit annoying someone happened to offer me another and I said "yes" too. I have ended up a bit underemployed and underpaid, but life's comfortable and safe and I have ample time to stress over hobbies instead of work.
So comfortable that lately I have declined offers for interesting and much much better paid work, because I can no longer be bothered to take any risks or alter my lifestyle.
But sometimes I wish I could have been the guy managing to get 10k MMR using knowledge I've got in spades.
True. But he’s able to do marketing because he has the money, time and sense of priorities to do so.
The moral of the story is: Don’t be (another) fool, your tech stack is not your priority.
When he switches from Kubernetes in the cloud to Nginx -> App Binary -> Sqlite he trades operations functionality for cost.
But, actually you can run Kubernetes and Postgres etc on a VPS.
See https://stack-cli.com/ where you can specify a Supabase style infra on a low cost VPS on top of K3s.
I think his argument is that the functionality is unnecessary. You don’t need dynamic service scaling because your single-instance service has such high capacity to begin with.
I guess it’s all about knowing when to re-engineer the solution for scale. And the answer is rarely ”up front”.
Dynamic scaling is not really even available on a single node kubernetes.
I was thinking more of
Running multiple websites. i.e. 1 application per namespace. Tooling i.e. k9s for looking at logs etc. Upgrading applications etc.
Namespaces exist in Linux [0], they weren’t invented by K8s.
You can view application logs with anything that can read a text file, or journalctl if your distro is using that.
There are many methods of performing application upgrades with minimal downtime.
0: https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/namespaces.7.html
Thats true. The reason I like k8s is once you've gone up the learning curve you can apply that knowledge to cloud deployments, on prem, or in this case VPS.
The authors stack left me thinking about how will he re-start the app if it crashes, versioning, containers, infra as code.
I've seen these articles before... the Ruby on Rails guys had the same idea and built https://kamal-deploy.org/
Which starts to look more and more like K3s as time goes on.
I’m thinking even simple containers have automatic restarts. I wouldn’t deploy to prod using ”docker start” but I wouldn’t look askance at someone using “docker compose” for that purpose.
Namespacing is great; look at how Notepad++ was hacked. They were sharing a non-namespaced deployment with other applications, IIRC.
Great stack! I'm doing a similar approach for my latest project (kavla.dev) but using fly.io and their suspend feature.
Scaling to zero with database persistence using litestream has cut my bill down to $0.1 per month for my backend+database.
Granted I still don't have that many users, and they get 200ms of extra latency if the backend needs to wake up. But it's nice to never have to worry about accidental costs!
This is a really nice setup for side projects and random ideas too. Thanks for sharing!
I'm taking the opposite approach - managed services all the way, and my monthly infrastructure costs are higher than what's described here.
No regrets. Infrastructure isn't the problem I'm trying to solve. The problem is: who's actually going to pay for this?
Optimizing infrastructure before you have customers is like designing a kitchen before you've written the menu. I launched within 72 hours of starting development and went straight to customer validation. The market feedback started coming in immediately.
Infrastructure costs show up in your bill. The cost of slow customer validation doesn't show up anywhere - until it's too late. That's the number I watch.
Some of this will depend on what experience you’ve got. Someone with lots of experience running Linux servers can probably stand up the sort of thing described in this article in a couple of hours from a starting point of being given the Go application source and a credit card.
Lol, try 20 min at most if taking it slow. (I used to be a linux admin)
It doesn’t sound like OP was optimizing anything; it sounds like they just knew how to use that stack, and so are able to get customer validation while also spending very little per month.
Fair point. Stack selection is mostly about what you already know. I chose managed services not because I optimized for it, but because that's the stack I'm comfortable with. That said, my real point was simpler: whatever stack you pick, figure out who's going to pay for it before you spend time on infrastructure decisions.
which approach works better depends on your financial situation and your existing setup. if you have money you can invest, then your approach works. if you have more time than money then invest the time instead. when you have built up your servers over the years, when building a new product, you can also do it quickly because the services you need are already running, and firing up a new database or a new server takes just as long as it takes to set up a managed service. but it doesn't add any cost.
This is supposed to be a contrarian opinion yet this is a retoric yapped non-stop in the “build in public” community. Of course lean is a good approach, it makes sense, and most engineers know this. Is not a new concept, we’ve been doing this for years in every branch of engineering.
The invented “people start with a k8s cluster for 5 users” doesn’t really exist. This is just a story repeated ad nauseam to fit a narrative that help them justify their choices. This position is just as dogmatic, if not more, than the alleged dogma it attempts to disrupt.
Smart technical leaders knows that technical decisions only matter in context never in absolutes. The right answer is always “it depends”.
I can agree that there is a tendency to prematurely optimize infra, as a direct consequence of lack of measuring especially in young busy startups. One could argue that premature optimization might be the smart choice when you don’t have enough data, as in the best case scenario (your startup do well) you’ve saved some time, worst case scenario you’ve lost some money that depending on the situation might be less valuable than time spent in maintaining, and later refactoring, infra.
I've seen A LOT of public sector projects starting out with loads of Azure services and >$3000 montly bills for applications that could've easily run on a single VM.
This a structural problem not an awareness one. Is not like they don’t know they can run it on a 5$ VPS, the problem is that there are no incentives to do so. You’d be surprised to know how much of engineering is there to address organisational challenges rather than technical ones (ie: micro-services)
> The invented “people start with a k8s cluster for 5 users” doesn’t really exist.
Can confirm it exists, especially with founders self-coding with LLMs now.
I recall reading multiple AskHN posts about people trying to get attention from a cloud provider because they ran up thousands of dollars in charges accidentally. I've seen large companies do this too, even if you think something is just a dev environment, its the cloud provider's production environment and they will charge you per their ToS for everything you use, doesn't matter what the customer usage profile looks like.
Experienced dev with limited hands-on big tech infrastructure experience. Based on the results I get from LLMs in domains I understand how get they even get this stuff running using AI?
Monkeys and typewriters. Throw enough character input and "It's not working" into an LLM and it will eventually produce... something.
And since it tends to reach for the most web-represented solution, that means infinite redis caches doing the same thing, k8s, and/or Vercel.
Best mental model: imagine something that produces great tactical architecture, with zero strategic architecture, running in a loop.
I can accept this is true, they will for sure exist. Of course if this they ability to make choices, technical or not, they are completely doomed.
“people start with a k8s cluster for 5 users” doesn’t really exist
Most people in the BiP these days barely know how to deploy a database or host something using nginx. it's all vercel, supabase, aws, clerk, yada yada. Cost aside, I think that people are addicted to complexity.
The basic premise, try to be lean, is a good one. The implementation will clearly be debated with everyone having their own opinion on it but the core point is sound. I'd argue a different version of this though: keeping things lean forces simplicity and focus which is incredibly important early on. I have stepped into several startups and seen a mess of old/broken/I don't know what it does so leave it/etc etc. All of that, beyond the cost, slows you down because of the complexity. Regular gardening of your tech stack matters and has a lot of benefits.
The biggest cost when bootstrapping always seemed to be your salary to me, not infra costs. How long can you pay your mortgage and feed your kids off what should be your retirement or rainy day funds?
Anyone doing per tenant database with SQLITE + Litestream? Please share your experiences and pain points. I know migrations are one. The other challenge is locating the correct database from incoming request. What else?
Ctrl-F Litestream leads me to this person also using it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737167
Similar approach here. I run a side project on Next.js + Vercel (free tier) + Neon Postgres (free tier). Total hosting cost: $0/month.
The one place I'd push back on SQLite: if your app has any write concurrency from external processes (cron jobs, webhooks), WAL mode helps but you still hit lock contention. I have data collection scripts running every 30 minutes that write to the same DB the web app reads from. Postgres handled that cleanly from day one. Neon's free tier is 512MB with connection pooling — more than enough for a side project with real data.
I guess it depends on what it is, but the Vercel free tiers don't allow commercial projects. I have no idea if they actually check though.
Do these things actually work? I've seen way too many gurus on twitter claiming to make 10K+ MRR every month. And then they quietly start applying for jobs. or selling courses instead of cashing in.
Right? I’m not buying it. Seems like personal PR post.
Why care so much about so little operating costs when your earning so much?
Always good to challenge the narrative - but I don't pay for RDS Postgres because of the WAL, replication, all the beauty of pg etc. I pay RDS because it's largely set and forget. I am gladly paying AWS to think about it for me. I think at a certain scale, this is a really good tradeoff. At the very beginning it could be overkill, and at the top end obviously its unsuitable - but for most of us those tradeoffs are why it's successful.
You can use stuff like Litestream to continuously back up your SQLite DB to a cheap storage bucket. It's practically set and forget too.
I was writing about this recently [0]. In the 2000s, we were bragging about how cheap our services are and are getting. Today, a graduate with an idea is paying $200 amounts in AWS after the student discounts. They break the bank and go broke before they have tested the idea. Programming is literally free today.
[0]: https://idiallo.com/blog/programming-tools-are-free
The most interesting thing in here is https://github.com/smhanov/laconic which is the author's "agentic research orchestrator for Go that is optimized to use free search & low-cost limited context window llms".
I have been doing this kind of thing with Cursor and Codex subscriptions, but they do have annoying rate limits, and Cursor on the Auto model seems to perform poorly if you ask it to do too much work, so I am keen to try out laconic on my local GPU.
EDIT:
Having tried it out, this may be a false economy.
The way it works is it has a bunch of different prompts for the LLMs (Planner, Synthesizer, Finalizer).
The "Planner" is given your input question and the "scratchpad" and has to come up with DuckDuckGo search terms.
Then the harness runs the DuckDuckGo search and gives the question, results, and scratchpad to the Synthesizer. The Synthesizer updates the scratchpad with new information that is learnt.
This continues in a loop, with the Planner coming up with new search queries and the Synthesizer updating the scratchpad, until eventually the Planner decides to give a final answer, at which point the Finalizer summarises the information in a user-friendly final answer.
That is a pretty clever design! It allows you to do relatively complex research with only a very small amount of context window. So I love that.
However I have found that the Synthesizer step is extremely slow on my RTX3060, and also I think it would cost me about £1/day extra to run the RTX3060 flat out vs idle. For the amount of work laconic can do in a day (not a lot!), I think I am better off just sending the money to OpenAI and getting the results more quickly.
But I still love the design, this is a very creative way to use a very small context window. And has the obvious privacy and freedom advantages over depending on OpenAI.
Yeah, came here to mention that too!
From the article:
>To manage all this, I built laconic, an agentic researcher specifically optimized for running in a constrained 8K context window. It manages the LLM context like an operating system's virtual memory manager—it "pages out" the irrelevant baggage of a conversation, keeping only the absolute most critical facts in the active LLM context window.
The 8K part is the most startling to me. Is that still a thing? I worked under that constraint in 2023 in the early GPT-4 days. I believe Ollama still has the default context window set to 8K for some reason. But the model mentioned on laconic GitHub (Qwen3:4B) should support 32K. (Still pretty small, but.. ;)
I'll have to take a proper look at the architecture, extreme context engineering is a special interest of mine :) Back when Auto-GPT was a thing (think OpenClaw but in 2023), I realized that what most people were using it for was just internet research, and that you could get better results, cheaper, faster, and deterministically, by just writing a 30 line Python script.
Google search (or DDG) -> Scrape top N results -> Shove into LLM for summarization (with optional user query) -> Meta-summary.
In such straightforward, specialized scenarios, letting the LLM drive was, and still is, "swatting a fly with a plasma cannon."
(The analog these days would be that many people would be better off asking Claw to write a scraper for them, than having it drive Chromium 24/7...)
> (The analog these days would be that many people would be better off asking Claw to write a scraper for them, than having it drive Chromium 24/7...)
Possibly. But possibly you have a very long tail of sites that you hardly ever look at, and that change more frequently than you use them, and maintaining the scraper is harder work than just using Chromium.
The dream is that the Claw would judge for itself whether to write a scraper or hand-drive the browser.
That might happen more easily if LLMs were a bit lazier. If they didn't like doing drudgery they would be motivated to automate it away. Unfortunately they are much too willing to do long, boring, repetitive tasks.
Yeah, I think the ideal setup is two-tier.
extremely lazy, large model
extremely diligent RalphNot sure if top model should be the biggest one though. I hear opposite opinions there. Small model which delegates coding to bigger models, vs big model which delegates coding to small models.
The issue is you don't want the main driver to be big, but it needs to be big enough to have common sense w.r.t. delegating both up[0] and down...
[0] i.e. "too hard for me, I will ping Opus ..." :) do models have that level of self awareness? I wanna say it can be after a failed attempt, but my failure mode is that the model "succeeds" but the solution is total ass.
Re: your footnote, Anthropic certainly seem to think so [0]
[0] https://claude.com/blog/the-advisor-strategy
Pretty sure this is just written by AI... Why else would someone call "Sonnet 3.5 Sonnet and gpt 4o' high end models.
Yep. It made me go check the date of publishing thinking it was published on 2023
are they not high-end?
I run a dozen PHP (Laravel) / MySQL / Redis apps on a single server which cost 45€ per month.
Applications each have their own FreeBSD jails, so they're isolated.
ZFS incremental replication on top of regular app backups provide a quick recovery process should the hardware of that machine fail.
Moving those apps to the cloud would cost orders of magnitude more, for benefits I don't need.
>>The optimal strategy is simple: write brutally detailed prompts with strict success criteria (which is best practice anyway), tell the agent to "keep going until all errors are fixed," hit enter, and go make a coffee while Satya Nadella subsidizes your compute costs.
100% agreed.
I think newer developers really need to learn that you can actually do production stuff using bare tools. It is not crazy, especially in the beginning, and it will save you a ton of money and time.
I get that the focus of this article is on the tech portion, but I don't know anyone pitching today (aside from OpenAI) who is asking for big funding for the tech costs. It doesn't really matter if you built a system that costs you $200/month or $20/month if your lifetime value is $1000 and CAC is only $10 but you've got no money. That's what people want to fund. VC funding is gasoline you pour on a fire (or fuel for you rocket if you're being charitable) - it makes you go faster; a pitch that focuses on "slightly lower monthly op costs" is not attractive.
This is my life goal right now. I have a bajillion ideas, know how to code them (even faster now), and just not enough time due to day job. A few questions:
How do you market them?
Is customer support an issue?
Do you see risk since ai makes it so easy to build/copy?
Modern tech stacks always remind me of this cartoon:
https://www.toontales.net/short/lumber-jerks/
Acme Toothpicks
I want to know how he’s identifying and monetizing businesses
Would be handy to actually see what these companies do…
The biggest risk to cloud revenues is that everyone wakes up and realizes they could slash their cloud bills by 60+% quite quickly with just some minimal leaning.
I do appreciate the technical simplicity argument and I'm always advocating for it. And the few neat tricks i.e. Copilot.
That being said, I'd much rather read a few ideas for good recurring passive income. Instead, the author kind of flexes on that, then says "I get refused VC money because they don't see how their money would be useful for me" -- which is one more flex -- and moves on to the technical bits.
It's coming across as bragging to me.
I concur with some of the commenters that this read as a bit of a brain dump. It has a thread connecting several loosely-related topics.
Observation #1: You can also solve the tech stack problem with Heroku. I think the author's stack probably has a steeper learning curve, but is a cheaper option. I think it's a bit of an odd comparison (I won't say straw-man, as I don't doubt some people do this) to go from a fully-controlled simple setup to using AWS with a pile of extra crap. You can also, for example, run something similar to what he or she is describing on AWS, Heroku etc. (I.e. without the things in the AWS diagram he indicated like kubernetes and load balancers.)
Observation #2: I have not found WAL mode is an antidote to SQLite locks during multiple concurrent writes. (This is anecdotal)
I think regarding Go vs Python/Ruby etc. I completely get that. I would now like to check out Go on web. I use Rust for most of my software writing, but am still on Python for web servers, because there is nothing I can use for Rust that is as powerful and easy as Django.
Nice tech read, but without information about which companies, doing what, just feels way too click-baity.
Truth has been told.
> If you need a little breathing room, just use a swapfile.
You should always use a swap file/partition, even if you don't want any swapping. That's because there are always cold pages and if you have no swap space that memory cannot be used for apps or buffers, it's just wasted.
I always thought I had to add a swap file to avoid crashing with OOM. I wasn't aware of the cold pages overhead.
Sometimes that crashing is what I want: a dedicated server running one (micro)service in a system that'll restart new servers on such crashes (e.g. Kubernetes-alike). I'd rather have it crash immediately rather than chugging along in degraded state.
But on a shared setup like OP shows, or the old LAMP-on-a-vps, i'd prefer the system to start swapping and have a chance to recover. IME it quite often does. Will take a few minutes (of near downtime) but will avoid data corruption or crash-loops much easier.
Basically, letting Linux handle recovery vs letting a monitoring system handle recovery
This is how every website used to be run before everyone fell four the cloud trap.
Love your username and how it relates to your comment -- and the topic at hand.
20$ vs 300$ does not really matter if you have multiple 10K MRR.
It depends on how many non-10K MRR projects you have. Making it possible to try out many ideas cheaply may be a good idea.
It isn’t 10k MRR from day one. It also doesn’t make sense to think “well, now that I’m a big boy let’s move to a fancy stack , even if there is no need for it”
for me, using go is the fancy stack
Exactly. Deciding on some very expensive subscriptions that can cost 1k per month or so might be worth thinking about, but this is just meaningless optimisation.
not at all meaningless. unless you have money to invest, at the beginning you don't have an income. i could not afford to spend $300 a month to host a new product that doesn't make any money yet. i can afford the $20 however, but then once the product does make money, why should i change it if it works?
AWS is not value for money, I do have a DO account that is great but my development is mostly hosted locally with tunnels from cloudflare, it is remarkable how far you (I) can get with that setup.
Last I saw, AWS has way better peering agreements than DO. Lots of problems with terrible throughput and lots of dropped packets for various clients (in several cities in North America, not just overseas or in the middle of nowhere) that vanished instantly on switching to AWS (including overseas ones that were also having problems)
Unfortunately, this isn’t something that shows up on spec sheets when you’re choosing a service. :-/
Well where does it show up? This is the first I've heard of this. Any source?
Source was we used it, and that's what we saw, ~20% of clients on three continents (about half in North America) consistently had terrible connectivity to DO (not none, but it was really bad) and we spent a lot of time trying to fix it. Vanished through nothing but shifting that to AWS. It was clearly DO's peering network.
You probably won't see this unless both the following are true for your situation:
1) You have a workload that makes this issue noticeable. Long-lived connections and large transfer sizes make it more likely you'll notice. Loading 20kb of static html over the connection likely won't seem to have any problems (unless you run repeated trials and network analysis tools). Of course, modern websites can be pretty large...
2) Your users are long-term enough and in communication with you so these issues can even be noticed in the first place. Also helps if they're technical. If you're not hearing the story and aware of the situation on the other end of the line, all you see is a slow connection, could be anything causing it, and there are plenty of them for reasons that have to do with things closer to the client's end.
So all e.g. an e-commerce site might see is a somewhat higher bounce rate than necessary (due to some fraction of their users experiencing the site like it's on a somewhat-jittery ISDN line) without even knowing they're leaving money on the table because they likely have no way of even being aware of the problem.
[EDIT] Yes, we tried shifting around a bunch of ways on DO's side trying all kinds of ways to fix this, I'm quite sure it wasn't that we were unlucky with our hardware draw there or just one of their datacenters had this problem. It was something past the edge of their network.
One thing that I noticed was the mention of Claude 3.5 Sonnet or GPT-4o as cutting-edge models when the blog was written 25 days ago. This sadly makes me suspect that this was written by a LLM instead of a person...
How do you connect back from VPS to local LLM?
While I applaud the acumen, this reads like watching a kid standing on the 3rd floor balcony shouting "look what I can do!"
$20/month. Yeah. Great, but why? You get a lot of peace of mind with "real" HA setup with real backups and real recovery, for not much more than $20, if you are careful.
Another half of article is about running "free, unlimited" local AI on a GPU (Santa brought it) with, apparently, free electricity (Santa pays for it).
One thing that I noticed was the mention of Claude 3.5 Sonnet or GPT-4o when the blog was written 25 days ago. This sadly makes me suspect that this was written by a LLM instead of a person...
I love SQLite and have ran it even on networked drives with queued writes for read-heavy applications. It’s an incredibly robust piece of software that’s often cost me pennies per month to serve 100k+ monthly users. But there’s definitely a time and place for solid, dedicated database servers like Postgres.
SQLite? Luxury! My servers use CSV files for the database. (It’s actually true)
Very good article for a beginner starting newly to keep things lean and simple.
Where do you get your eh-trade.ca stock price data? Given the licensing fees, that seems like one of the greater challenges of bootstrapping anything with market data.
This is similar to what I do. Linode, Debian, Go, HTMX, SQLite (with modernc.org/SQLite so I have no CGO dependency) and Caddy. If I have apps that need a lot of storage, I just add an S3 bucket.
I do it even more simpler: build in PHP and webhosting from Hetzner. All managed: email, sub-domains, name-servers, OS updates/patches etc.
I really started to enjoy managed servers/instances.
I read it as an article in defence of boring tech with a fancier/clickbaity title.
Here’s the more honest one i wrote a while back:
https://aazar.me/posts/in-defense-of-boring-technology
While I agree with your points, this one could be more nuanced:
> Infrastructure: Bare Server > Containers > Kubernetes
The problem with recommending a bare server first is that bare metal fails. Usually every couple of years a component fails - a PSU, a controller, a drive. Also, a bare metal server is more expensive than VPS.
Paradoxically, a k3s distro with 3 small nodes and a load balancer at Hetzner may cost you less than a bare metal server and will definitely give you much better availability in the long run, albeit with less performance for the same money.
In 5 years of running 3x Dell R620s 24/7 - which were already 9 years old when I got them - I had two sticks of RAM have ECC errors, and one PSU fail. The RAM technically didn’t have to be replaced, but I chose to. The PSU of course had a hot spare, so the system switched over and informed me without issue.
IME, hardware is much more reliable than people think.
Can anybody validate this Github Copilot trick for accessign Opus 4.6? Sounds too good to be true.
I'm not what I'd call a heavy user, but I've also mainly been using Copilot in VS Code on the basic sub.
You do get Opus 4.6, and it's really affordable. I usually go over my limits, but I'm yet to spend more than 5 USD on the surcharges.
Not seen a reason to switch, but YMMV depending on what you're doing and how you work.
Longtime happy Copilot user here. It's true.
The pricing is so good that it's the only way I do agentic coding now. I've never spent more than $40 in a month on Opus, and I give it large specs to work on. I usually spend $20 or so.
It is true, it's the official pricing of GitHub Copilot.
Why is GitHub sticking to per-request pricing when other providers switched to per-token for the high performing models?
Maybe MS wants people to use Co Pilot.
I decided to look at their website halfway through the post,
https://imgur.com/a/7M4PdO6
This is really what 10k mrr can get you? A badly designed AI slop website that isn't even mobile correctly compatible. The logo is white background on black website like a university project.
I can't believe that people are willingly spending money on this.
I have worked with healthcare clients paying gobs of money to completely broken sites that they have to call support about twice a week. I don't pretend to know why people spend money on things anymore.
You'd be surprised at the amounts household name companies spend on broken software. I've personally seen multiple companies spend tens of thousands paying just for the opportunity to evaluate the broken software. And I don't mean the time taken for their own employees to spend doing the evaluation. I mean that plus forking over large piles of cash.
Agree with a lot of this except sqlite, and the fact that if I commit to building something I typically put it in the cloud with basic scaling from the start for efficiency.
Forget about the tech stack, how do I get multiple $10k MRR companies?
This seems extremely spartan. Live a little, splurge on the 2GB server and MariaDB instead of SQLite!
We have gone full circle haven't we?
Does anybody know a good service to self host Ai? My graphics card is shit, I want to rent hardware to run my own models
So what's the $10K MMR product, exactly? The lede is buried into nonexistence. Is it this one: https://www.websequencediagrams.com/ ...?
> Here is the trick that you might have missed: somehow, Microsoft is able to charge per request, not per token. And a "request" is simply what I type into the chat box. Even if the agent spends the next 30 minutes chewing through my entire codebase, mapping dependencies, and changing hundreds of files, I still pay roughly $0.04.
Really? Lol. If it's true why would you publish it? To ensure Microsoft will patch it up and fuck up your workflow?
>Really? Lol. If it's true why would you publish it? To ensure Microsoft will patch it up and fuck up your workflow?
It's true and it's their official pricing, so talking about it won't change anything.
People are spending way too much money with Claude Code while they could simply pay for GitHub Copilot and fire up OpenCode to get the same results but way cheaper.
It's already known. The trick is ms has very small context size. So it won't be much useful.
So in other words the author is plain lying?
> Even if the agent spends the next 30 minutes chewing through my entire codebase
How can a 'very small context size' do that?
It always make me both roll my eyes and smile a little when i see someone daft enough to think they need some obscene setup - you dont. You never have. You are not Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. If you get to the point where you need that kind of setup you're already employing a dev ops team thats telling you that.
Stick whatever you're working on onto a ~$5/mo cheapo vps from someone like Hetzner, Digitalocean, etc and just get on with building your thing.
Is infra where investors money is going? I imagined salaries would be it. Marketing costs maybe.
For single-person companies infra can be the single largest expense (especially if you aren't paying yourself yet!). The day you bring a full-time employee onboard, I have a hard time seeing infra costs ever exceeding salaries for most shops
>The feedback was simply: "What do you even need funding for?"
Not clear from the text, but what was your plan using the funding on? If you did not have a plan, what did you expect? VCs want to see how adding more money results in asymmetric returns.
You already have and had everything you need to scale the business to max and it hasn’t happened so more money won’t help.
What do you want VC to do?
You didn’t bring a plan.
I was wondering this as well: Why did OP look for VC?
In my case, I've used a similar strategy of keeping costs under €100/month. (But have sold, or stopped my ventures before hitting such MRRs as OP reports).
I raised some capital to pay my own bills during development. But mostly to hire freelancers to work on parts that I'm bad at, or didn't have time for: advertising, a specific feature, a library, rewrite-in-rust (wink) or deep research into functional improvements.
Very interesting insights on long running Llms locally.
Edited.
Pieter levels would love this.
I think making is the easiest part, would be really cool if you also reveal how you distribute what you are making for $20/mo.
AI has solved the "code problem", but it hasn't solved the "marketing problem"…
If you can’t articulate what you need funding for, don’t be surprised if nobody will give it to you?
well, the guy runs what he runs and can't complain
Eh-trade.ca eh? The name spells the exit strategy this is seeking. Awesome idea and a great execution. Vertical scaling will take this simple setup far and probably far enough.
You can get all the advantages and almost none of the constraints by buying a bigger base server for $50/m
Not my website. I found this interesting.
eh the super low cost only comes from low complexity. If complex, people pay more, features cost more, infra costs aren’t that big of a cost compared to dev time.
nice article, validates some of the things i already thought. although im sure things like aws and database servers etc are still useful for big companies
So is the slopaclypse gonna destroy HN too? 2nd from the top AI written non-proofread article
What a fascinating article. I especially love the part about writing extremely detailed requests which only cost $0.04 versus the token approach most “vibe code” devs use. Fortunately his tactic is almost impossible to emulate for 90% of the YCombinator audience / HN commentators.
Why do I know this? Because there had to be a declaration here to stop using ChatGPT and other Agents to write YOUR OWN GODDAMN POSTS. Thinking isn’t your strong suit, Greed is, and taking the time to learn the power of English doesn’t satisfy the latter, so you minimize it to your own detriment.
Don’t get mad at me. Go punch a mirror.
LMFAO at Linode / Digital Ocean as lean servers.
Hetzner / Contabo maybe. Cloudflare workers definitely.
This guy is not at my level and multiple $10k MRR is possible but unlikely.
A lot of this advice is good or at least interesting. A lot of it is questionable. Python is completely fine for the backend. And using SQLite for your prod database is a bad idea, just use Postgres or similar.
There’s a lot to be said about his approach with go for simplicity. Python needs virtual environments, package managers, dependencies on disk, a wsgi/asgi server to run forked copies of the server, and all of that uses 4x-20x the ram usage of go. Docker usually gets involved around here and before you know it you’re neck deep in helm charts and cursing CNI configs in an EKS cluster.
The go equivalent of just coping one file across to a server a restarting its process has a lot of appeal and clearly works well for him.
Yes. It strikes me as odd how many people will put forward Python with the argument of "simplicity".
It is not. Simple. It may be "easy" but easy != simple (simple is hard, I tend to say).
I'm currently involved in a project that was initially layed out as microservices in rust and some go, to slowly replace a monolyth Django monstrosity of 12+ years tech debt.
But the new hires are pushing back and re-introducing python, eith that argument of simplicity. Sure, python is much easier than a rust equivalent. Esp in early phases. But to me, 25+ years developer/engineer, yet new to python, it's unbelievable complex. Yes, uv solves some. As does ty and ruff. But, my goodness, what a mess to set up simple ci pipelines, a local development machine (that doesn't break my OS or other software on that machine). Hell, even the dockerfiles are magnitudes more complex than most others I've encountered.
I am not following the difficulties you have mentioned. Setting up a local dev environment in Python is trivial with UV.
The only major downside of Python is its got a bit poor module system and nothing as seamless as Cargo.
Beyond that the code is a million times easier to understand for a web app.
Python will take you a long way, but its ceiling (both typical and absolute) is far lower than the likes of Go and Rust. For typical implementations, the difference may be a factor of ten. For careful implementations (of both), it can be a lot more than that.
Does the difference matter? You must decide that.
As for your dismissing SQLite: please justify why it’s a bad idea. Because I strongly disagree.
What a load of nonsense.
Why is it nonsense? Sounds reasonable to me.
> its ceiling (both typical and absolute) is far lower
If you plan to remaining smaller than instagram, the ceiling is comfortably above you.
There are a myriad middle states in-between "frupid" (so frugal that it's stupid) and "Instagram scale".
Python requires much more hand-holding that many don't want to do for good reasons (I prefer to work on the product unimpeded and not feeling pride having the knowledge to babysit obsolete stacks carried by university nostalgia).
With Go, Rust, Zig, and a few others -- it's a single binary.
In this same HN thread another person said it better than me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737151
The context was explicitly single machine.
I plan to remain smaller than two VMs
This is a post about keeping your infrastructure simple, so Instagram is not a good ceiling to pick. People do all kinds of hacks to scale Python before they hit Instagram levels
Why is SQLite bad for production database?
Yes, it has some things that behave differently than PostgreSQL but I am curious about why you think that.
For read only it can be a great option. But even then I would choose D1 which has an amazing free tier and is sqlite under da hood.
But then you don't get the benefits of having the DB locally, with in-process access.
It's local to the worker? I don't understand what you mean.
Unless your Cloudflare worker and the DB are scheduled onto the same physical server, they are not local to one another. I don’t know much about D1, but the overwhelming majority of cloud infra makes no such guarantees, nor are they likely to want to architect it in that manner.
Cloudflare's Durable Objects puts your Worker and SQLite DB on the same physical server (and lets you easily spawn millions of these pairs around the world).
D1 is a simplified wrapper around DO, but D1 does not put your DB on the same machine. You need to use DO directly to get local DBs.
https://developers.cloudflare.com/durable-objects/
(I am the lead engineer for Cloudflare Workers.)
Very cool, thanks for the response!
I think the point is that your Python webapp will have more problems scaling to let's say 10,000 customers on a 5$ VPS tham Go. Of course you can always get beefier servers, but then that adds up for every project
At 10,000 paying customers I don't think it is frivolous to move to a 10/month vps, or maybe a second 5/month one for fail-over.
Cool but missing the Claude Code or Coding Agent part imo
He specifically mentions that he is using GitHub Copilot because of how Microsoft bills per request instead of token.