Linked in the Bugzilla thread is a really nice in depth investigation of the same issue with high register aliases in a similar algorithm (Huffman coding) but in an entirely different product: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/oodle-2-9-14-and-in... .
It's concerning that Intel don't seem to have been responsive to anyone with respect to this issue and it doesn't appear to have an official errata yet, although Raptor Lake was the Intel CPU with voltage issues and basically random bit rot so I suppose it's hard to tell if this is a silicon level errata caused by bad design or by some kind of post-manufacturing damage. Raptor Lake in general causes enough non-reproducible noise that I believe Firefox gave up on automated crash reports from it ( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1975808 ).
EDIT: I read that Oodle article (which is SO good!) again and realized that their customer-provided reproduction of the bug was directly linked to boost clock speeds (the customer said that overclocking by 5% made it happen entirely reliably), so this is definitely not a "the architecture has a 100% bug in it" but rather some deeper issue with clock propagation that appears at edge cases.
Read the Oodle article in full, fantastic investigation indeed!
It also looks like there's a slight difference in the unwanted effect both companies have reported, despite the bug being seemingly triggered the same way (mov touching the high byte):
- Oodle reports that a low byte is occasionally stored in the intended location.
- Mozilla's fix suggests that a full 16-bit value is stored instead, corrupting an adjacent variable! This could have much more serious consequences.
Technically, this could still be the same exact bug. I found no mention of the order the output buffer was accessed in by the Huffman decoder debugged in the Oodle report, and, since it was a contiguous buffer, it's easy to mistake an occasional out-of-bounds copy there for a copy from a wrong location. But if both analyses are correct, the behavior of high byte accesses on Raptor Lake is way less predictable than those fixes suggest. Haven't managed to find an official erratum from Intel.
It's very interesting because my 13900K has worked like a dream from day one and still to this day. Never had any of the voltage issues, never had any abnormal crashes in Firefox or any other software. I was undervolting it for a long while, so I wonder if somehow that saved me from the voltage issues before they were fixed?
Undervolting would definitely help, and is the actual fix. The current Intel fixes were mostly just for the symptoms, as the main issue is high voltage+power when pushing high clocks, but they can't actually fix that as it'd downgrade the advertised clocks the cpus were sold with
Sorry, but that understanding is dangerously incomplete. You're describing the first set of issues they uncovered, but there's also:
"Microcode and BIOS code requesting elevated core voltages which can cause Vmin shift especially during periods of idle and/or light activity" (emphasis mine)
Recall also that "Vmin shift" means "the minimum voltage the processor needs to run correctly goes up" so if the issue isn't addressed, that level of undervolt may stop working
My 1360p and 13400 seem fine too. I applied the microcode and firmware updates when they came out... but I'm guessing it didn't affect all skus equally for whatever magical reason.
"Write both dist bytes as a single 2-byte store. This avoids the `movb %ch, [mem]` instruction pattern (store from high-byte register alias) that LLVM otherwise emits when dist arrives as a wide register. That pattern triggers the Intel Raptor Lake CPU errata, causing silent 2-byte stores that corrupt the adjacent `len` byte."
There's another blog post going into more depth about the issue here: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/oodle-2-9-14-and-in... where they speculate that it seems to relate to both other clock-related instability on specific Raptor Lake parts and possibly the overarching voltage control problems that the platform had early on; I can't tell entirely from the bug reports whether the behavior reliably reproduces on 100% of Raptor Lakes but the indicators I'm reading point to that it doesn't. It is concerning that Intel didn't get back to Mozilla about it though, since it's certainly a lot more than a one off.
Common Raptor Lake L, add it to the pile of oxidation and overvoltage faults. This has to be the most faulty generation in Intel's entire recent manufacturing history.
Yes? It is regularly; both the firmware or the OS can deliver updates depending on configuration. The Raptor Lake CPUs in question have gone through an enormous number of microcode revisions already due to quite famous voltage scaling issues; it's unclear if this errata is fallout from or related to a similar root cause or just another issue with the processor.
It's a dumb question, because it's in reply to a comment that already implies the answer, and it's trivial to find an answer online in less time than it takes to post that question and wait for someone to supply an answer.
The subject of CPU microcode update mechanisms is an interesting and relevant topic, but such a shallow, low-effort question is not a good way to promote interesting discussion on that topic.
Regarding the Raptor Lake bug I received a couple of messages from confused users that had read articles on Tomshardware and Neowin. They asked about erratas and microcode updates which puzzled me, because that was part of my early investigation into the bug and we know that the failure is not caused by a known errata and microcode updates cannot fix broken CPUs. So why did they ask? As it turns out it was slop. Both articles are 100% slop full of confusing and inaccurate claims.
Because it's a known problem. It's called Vmin Shift Instability issues. The affected CPUs are broken. One needs to RMA the CPUs. Intel also extended CPU warranty for 2 more years.
Because there still are many broken CPUs out in the wild. Firefox works around the crash so the broken CPUs won't flood the channel with crash reports.
Sorry it's still not clear what he means? When a CPU is "broken", is it already failing or is it "broken" in the sense it will fail?
For example:
Does he mean all existing 13th/14th gen CPUs (prior to Intel's discovery of the vmin issue) are broken in the sense that they are susceptible to damage and can only be replaced.
OR
Does he mean that the microcode updates, applied by Intel to existing CPUs that are susceptible to damage, will only slow degradation and the CPUs will eventually fail and can only be replaced.
OR
Is he saying the 13th/14th gen CPUs which have already sustained damage, cannot be fixed by microcode updates.
Only the desktop 8p+16e cores(13600/700/900,14600/700/900)k are susceptible. The CPUs are safe with the fixed bios/microcode. The notebook version of 8p+16e CPUs are also safe from vmin shift since notebook computer cannot go insane with voltage.
If the CPU is damaged already, the new microcode wont fixed the problem. It broken. You have to RMA the CPU.
The vmin shift instability is fixed. There are no new report of mass failures of 13th/14th gen CPUs after the new bios/microcode release.
I looked at the Raptor Lake errata [1] and it looks pretty scary. What if someones builds an exploit on these errors?
This is why CPU designers should aim for simplicity. This is why RISC-V vector extension, which requires complicated logic, can become a source of implementation errors.
All Intel, AMD or Arm-based CPUs and any other modern CPUs have dozens of errata, even if some CPU vendors keep them secret, instead of publishing them, as they should.
Fortunately, most of the erroneous behaviors are triggered only by very unlikely combinations of circumstances, some of which may even be impossible to happen in user programs, but only in operating system kernels.
Nevertheless, from time to time there are also serious errata, like the one discussed here, which can be triggered even by ordinary user programs. Sometimes, like here, such errata can be avoided by compilers patched to not generate the buggy instructions for the affected CPU models, assuming that it is known with certainty on which model of computer the compiled program will be executed (or using code dispatch at run time, based on the CPU model).
Simplicity in the CPU hardware may reduce the probability of hardware bugs, but it increases the probability of software bugs, because the missing hardware features must be implemented at a much greater cost in software, like in the case with the missing integer overflow detection of RISC-V, which causes most RISC-V programs to omit overflow checks, increasing the chances of undetected bugs.
> Simplicity in the CPU hardware may reduce the probability of hardware bugs, but it increases the probability of software bugs, because the missing hardware features must be implemented at a much greater cost in software, like in the case with the missing integer overflow detection of RISC-V, which causes most RISC-V programs to omit overflow checks, increasing the chances of undetected bugs.
Since I've got a SpacemiT K3 board my self now, I though I test it again:
I compiled microjs with both tinycc and chibicc, which where both compiled for the target platform with and without -ftrapv:
Last time I did full clang: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47328214#47342362
And there was minimal slowdown (sometimes speedup) on x86, Arm and RISC-V. It was pointed out that llvm mostly uses size_t, however chibicc and tinycc use int as their default type, so there should be lots of overflow checking.
Use of the "h" register slices (bits 8..15) by compilers is thankfully pretty rare -- otherwise this would have been noticed much sooner!
Agner Fog's optimization guide says "Any use of the high 8-bit registers AH, BH, CH, DH should be avoided because it can cause false dependences and less efficient code."
Use of the "h" register slices (bits 8..15) by compilers is thankfully pretty rare
That's unfortunate, because it's precisely why things like this will keep happening.
Agner Fog's optimization guide says "Any use of the high 8-bit registers AH, BH, CH, DH should be avoided because it can cause false dependences and less efficient code."
The sad vicious cycle of compilers not exercising the hardware, and then the hardware designers not paying attention. Using the high 8-bit registers and "implicitly merging" them is one of the ways to reduce the number of instructions and thus improve size optimisation.
> That's unfortunate, because it's precisely why things like this will keep happening.
I have the opposite opinion. Its use being rare means CPU designers have less need to optimize for that rare case, and hardware optimizations are precisely where these kinds of issues tend to pop up.
And high 8-bit registers are a x86-specific feature, other CPU families don't have it. So that special case being less optimized (or even pessimized) is not much of a loss.
Yep. The "high" registers as an alias for bits 8-15 of certain registers are one of many warts in the architecture; they should have been purged from 32-bit and 64-bit code, and left to rot in 16-bit mode only.
Intel blew it when they let them continue to work in to 32-bit code on the 386, and then
AMD blew it when they repeated the mistake when defining the 64-bit ISA.
> The sad vicious cycle of compilers not exercising the hardware
There could theoretically be instruction selection passes that are biased toward rare instructions, specialized for fuzzing hardware, I'm surprised Intel doesn't already do that.
Clearly Intel needs to do far more extensive regression-testing, with things like demoscene productions --- especially the extremely size-optimised ones that can exercise the edge-cases much better than the usual "compiler slop".
"knowingly" is meaningless, as otherwise they wouldn't even bother releasing errata lists; it's more likely that they underestimated the severity or their planned obsolescence calculations happened to be more statistically favourable than reality.
You’re intentionally muddying the waters with meaningless philosophy. Even the law makes the difference between “knowingly” (with knowledge, intention, premeditation) and “mistake”. They didn’t knowingly break the CPU but they knowingly launched it despite their own internal findings, and knowingly blamed others when this came out.
But here you are claiming that the company must deserve the benefit of the doubt on their intent.
No, “knowingly” is most definitely not “meaningless”. And anyone who’s not naive or bad intentioned should make that difference and take note. Every time a company gets away with it because an army of philosophers washes away any guilt or plays it down with meaningless distinctions it becomes one more reason to do it again. Knowingly.
The link you provided doesn’t match your comment, one of the comments in that thread points out that Intel blamed motherboards during the early stages.
Yes let's give a 50 billion dollar corporation flooded with MBAs the benefit of the doubt lmao. If GamersNexus can be believed, it was extremely deliberate to try and sweep it all under the rug.
I don't think they've clarified which exact models of which serial number ranges are affected with oxidation to this day. It should've been a recall.
Hopefully this bug is getting handled upstream in a microcode update or a compiler fix to avoid emitting such instructions. Just a comment mentioning that you should not emit a particular instruction is not a strong guarantee.
Linked in the Bugzilla thread is a really nice in depth investigation of the same issue with high register aliases in a similar algorithm (Huffman coding) but in an entirely different product: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/oodle-2-9-14-and-in... .
It's concerning that Intel don't seem to have been responsive to anyone with respect to this issue and it doesn't appear to have an official errata yet, although Raptor Lake was the Intel CPU with voltage issues and basically random bit rot so I suppose it's hard to tell if this is a silicon level errata caused by bad design or by some kind of post-manufacturing damage. Raptor Lake in general causes enough non-reproducible noise that I believe Firefox gave up on automated crash reports from it ( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1975808 ).
EDIT: I read that Oodle article (which is SO good!) again and realized that their customer-provided reproduction of the bug was directly linked to boost clock speeds (the customer said that overclocking by 5% made it happen entirely reliably), so this is definitely not a "the architecture has a 100% bug in it" but rather some deeper issue with clock propagation that appears at edge cases.
Read the Oodle article in full, fantastic investigation indeed!
It also looks like there's a slight difference in the unwanted effect both companies have reported, despite the bug being seemingly triggered the same way (mov touching the high byte):
- Oodle reports that a low byte is occasionally stored in the intended location.
- Mozilla's fix suggests that a full 16-bit value is stored instead, corrupting an adjacent variable! This could have much more serious consequences.
Technically, this could still be the same exact bug. I found no mention of the order the output buffer was accessed in by the Huffman decoder debugged in the Oodle report, and, since it was a contiguous buffer, it's easy to mistake an occasional out-of-bounds copy there for a copy from a wrong location. But if both analyses are correct, the behavior of high byte accesses on Raptor Lake is way less predictable than those fixes suggest. Haven't managed to find an official erratum from Intel.
It's very interesting because my 13900K has worked like a dream from day one and still to this day. Never had any of the voltage issues, never had any abnormal crashes in Firefox or any other software. I was undervolting it for a long while, so I wonder if somehow that saved me from the voltage issues before they were fixed?
Undervolting would definitely help, and is the actual fix. The current Intel fixes were mostly just for the symptoms, as the main issue is high voltage+power when pushing high clocks, but they can't actually fix that as it'd downgrade the advertised clocks the cpus were sold with
Sorry, but that understanding is dangerously incomplete. You're describing the first set of issues they uncovered, but there's also:
"Microcode and BIOS code requesting elevated core voltages which can cause Vmin shift especially during periods of idle and/or light activity" (emphasis mine)
https://community.intel.com/t5/Blogs/Tech-Innovation/Client/...
Recall also that "Vmin shift" means "the minimum voltage the processor needs to run correctly goes up" so if the issue isn't addressed, that level of undervolt may stop working
I remember Puget systems pointed to this same thing when they analyzed the issues back in the day when it was blowing up.
https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2024/08/02/puget-systems-p...
My 1360p and 13400 seem fine too. I applied the microcode and firmware updates when they came out... but I'm guessing it didn't affect all skus equally for whatever magical reason.
My 13900K was affected by the widespread voltage issue and had to be replaced, but since then I have had zero problems with it.
Details of the errata from a comment in the diff:
"Write both dist bytes as a single 2-byte store. This avoids the `movb %ch, [mem]` instruction pattern (store from high-byte register alias) that LLVM otherwise emits when dist arrives as a wide register. That pattern triggers the Intel Raptor Lake CPU errata, causing silent 2-byte stores that corrupt the adjacent `len` byte."
How did this get past validation at Intel?
This is worse than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
There's another blog post going into more depth about the issue here: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/oodle-2-9-14-and-in... where they speculate that it seems to relate to both other clock-related instability on specific Raptor Lake parts and possibly the overarching voltage control problems that the platform had early on; I can't tell entirely from the bug reports whether the behavior reliably reproduces on 100% of Raptor Lakes but the indicators I'm reading point to that it doesn't. It is concerning that Intel didn't get back to Mozilla about it though, since it's certainly a lot more than a one off.
"validation? what validation?"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27244941
Edit: you should probably read the article I linked first.
Common Raptor Lake L, add it to the pile of oxidation and overvoltage faults. This has to be the most faulty generation in Intel's entire recent manufacturing history.
It's the Alder Lake MAX. Originally decent design just pushed too far.
modifying source to avoid an assembly isntr isn't a fix... this need a compiler fix most likely, or a microcode fix, if possible.
Anyone have knowledge of whether microcode can be patched on consumer grade Intel CPUs?
https://github.com/intel/intel-linux-processor-microcode-dat...
Hot-swappable, even. TIL!of course, it's hot-swap material, the microcode is 1st deployed by the bios, then the OS can apply changes as well.
Just that it's writable by $ (not #) feels awkward.
Yes? It is regularly; both the firmware or the OS can deliver updates depending on configuration. The Raptor Lake CPUs in question have gone through an enormous number of microcode revisions already due to quite famous voltage scaling issues; it's unclear if this errata is fallout from or related to a similar root cause or just another issue with the processor.
At boot time, the following package provides the latest Intel CPU microcode data files on NetBSD.
dmesg showsWhy is this downvoted? (At the time of writing, the text is grey, so it has at least a few downvotes.)
This is a good question. As others have noted below, yes, and sometimes you can see kernel logging on start-up when the microcode is loaded.
It's a dumb question, because it's in reply to a comment that already implies the answer, and it's trivial to find an answer online in less time than it takes to post that question and wait for someone to supply an answer.
The subject of CPU microcode update mechanisms is an interesting and relevant topic, but such a shallow, low-effort question is not a good way to promote interesting discussion on that topic.
Classic HN elitism. Oh this peasant doesn't know the basics and dares to ask question that I deem stupid? DOWNVOTE
Also worth reading this thread on the subject: https://mas.to/@gabrielesvelto/116630047156991279
Regarding the Raptor Lake bug I received a couple of messages from confused users that had read articles on Tomshardware and Neowin. They asked about erratas and microcode updates which puzzled me, because that was part of my early investigation into the bug and we know that the failure is not caused by a known errata and microcode updates cannot fix broken CPUs. So why did they ask? As it turns out it was slop. Both articles are 100% slop full of confusing and inaccurate claims.
Because it's a known problem. It's called Vmin Shift Instability issues. The affected CPUs are broken. One needs to RMA the CPUs. Intel also extended CPU warranty for 2 more years.
Because there still are many broken CPUs out in the wild. Firefox works around the crash so the broken CPUs won't flood the channel with crash reports.
Sorry it's still not clear what he means? When a CPU is "broken", is it already failing or is it "broken" in the sense it will fail?
For example:
Does he mean all existing 13th/14th gen CPUs (prior to Intel's discovery of the vmin issue) are broken in the sense that they are susceptible to damage and can only be replaced.
OR
Does he mean that the microcode updates, applied by Intel to existing CPUs that are susceptible to damage, will only slow degradation and the CPUs will eventually fail and can only be replaced.
OR
Is he saying the 13th/14th gen CPUs which have already sustained damage, cannot be fixed by microcode updates.
Only the desktop 8p+16e cores(13600/700/900,14600/700/900)k are susceptible. The CPUs are safe with the fixed bios/microcode. The notebook version of 8p+16e CPUs are also safe from vmin shift since notebook computer cannot go insane with voltage.
If the CPU is damaged already, the new microcode wont fixed the problem. It broken. You have to RMA the CPU.
The vmin shift instability is fixed. There are no new report of mass failures of 13th/14th gen CPUs after the new bios/microcode release.
I looked at the Raptor Lake errata [1] and it looks pretty scary. What if someones builds an exploit on these errors?
This is why CPU designers should aim for simplicity. This is why RISC-V vector extension, which requires complicated logic, can become a source of implementation errors.
[1] https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/products/plat...
All Intel, AMD or Arm-based CPUs and any other modern CPUs have dozens of errata, even if some CPU vendors keep them secret, instead of publishing them, as they should.
Fortunately, most of the erroneous behaviors are triggered only by very unlikely combinations of circumstances, some of which may even be impossible to happen in user programs, but only in operating system kernels.
Nevertheless, from time to time there are also serious errata, like the one discussed here, which can be triggered even by ordinary user programs. Sometimes, like here, such errata can be avoided by compilers patched to not generate the buggy instructions for the affected CPU models, assuming that it is known with certainty on which model of computer the compiled program will be executed (or using code dispatch at run time, based on the CPU model).
Simplicity in the CPU hardware may reduce the probability of hardware bugs, but it increases the probability of software bugs, because the missing hardware features must be implemented at a much greater cost in software, like in the case with the missing integer overflow detection of RISC-V, which causes most RISC-V programs to omit overflow checks, increasing the chances of undetected bugs.
> Simplicity in the CPU hardware may reduce the probability of hardware bugs, but it increases the probability of software bugs, because the missing hardware features must be implemented at a much greater cost in software, like in the case with the missing integer overflow detection of RISC-V, which causes most RISC-V programs to omit overflow checks, increasing the chances of undetected bugs.
Since I've got a SpacemiT K3 board my self now, I though I test it again:
I compiled microjs with both tinycc and chibicc, which where both compiled for the target platform with and without -ftrapv:
Last time I did full clang: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47328214#47342362 And there was minimal slowdown (sometimes speedup) on x86, Arm and RISC-V. It was pointed out that llvm mostly uses size_t, however chibicc and tinycc use int as their default type, so there should be lots of overflow checking.And Rust omits overflow check under the same excuse, although overflow was a reason that allowed multiple Linux kernel vulnerabilities.
Buffer overflows are caught by bound checks that don't need integer overflow checks, cf dotnet.
Wait what, they are using Phabricator? I don't think it's particularly bad, I just though it was... particularly dead.
Uh ... working around this in each and every piece of software sounds like a non-starter? Intel should be on the hook to fix this.
Use of the "h" register slices (bits 8..15) by compilers is thankfully pretty rare -- otherwise this would have been noticed much sooner!
Agner Fog's optimization guide says "Any use of the high 8-bit registers AH, BH, CH, DH should be avoided because it can cause false dependences and less efficient code."
Use of the "h" register slices (bits 8..15) by compilers is thankfully pretty rare
That's unfortunate, because it's precisely why things like this will keep happening.
Agner Fog's optimization guide says "Any use of the high 8-bit registers AH, BH, CH, DH should be avoided because it can cause false dependences and less efficient code."
The sad vicious cycle of compilers not exercising the hardware, and then the hardware designers not paying attention. Using the high 8-bit registers and "implicitly merging" them is one of the ways to reduce the number of instructions and thus improve size optimisation.
> That's unfortunate, because it's precisely why things like this will keep happening.
I have the opposite opinion. Its use being rare means CPU designers have less need to optimize for that rare case, and hardware optimizations are precisely where these kinds of issues tend to pop up.
And high 8-bit registers are a x86-specific feature, other CPU families don't have it. So that special case being less optimized (or even pessimized) is not much of a loss.
Yep. The "high" registers as an alias for bits 8-15 of certain registers are one of many warts in the architecture; they should have been purged from 32-bit and 64-bit code, and left to rot in 16-bit mode only.
Intel blew it when they let them continue to work in to 32-bit code on the 386, and then AMD blew it when they repeated the mistake when defining the 64-bit ISA.
> The sad vicious cycle of compilers not exercising the hardware
There could theoretically be instruction selection passes that are biased toward rare instructions, specialized for fuzzing hardware, I'm surprised Intel doesn't already do that.
WTF, Intel? This is reminding me of a very similar bug from 9 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14630183
Clearly Intel needs to do far more extensive regression-testing, with things like demoscene productions --- especially the extremely size-optimised ones that can exercise the edge-cases much better than the usual "compiler slop".
Intel knowingly sold defective cpus and denied the defect until reports hit critical mass. I don’t think they care.
"knowingly" is meaningless, as otherwise they wouldn't even bother releasing errata lists; it's more likely that they underestimated the severity or their planned obsolescence calculations happened to be more statistically favourable than reality.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41041855
> "knowingly" is meaningless
You’re intentionally muddying the waters with meaningless philosophy. Even the law makes the difference between “knowingly” (with knowledge, intention, premeditation) and “mistake”. They didn’t knowingly break the CPU but they knowingly launched it despite their own internal findings, and knowingly blamed others when this came out.
But here you are claiming that the company must deserve the benefit of the doubt on their intent.
No, “knowingly” is most definitely not “meaningless”. And anyone who’s not naive or bad intentioned should make that difference and take note. Every time a company gets away with it because an army of philosophers washes away any guilt or plays it down with meaningless distinctions it becomes one more reason to do it again. Knowingly.
The link you provided doesn’t match your comment, one of the comments in that thread points out that Intel blamed motherboards during the early stages.
Yes let's give a 50 billion dollar corporation flooded with MBAs the benefit of the doubt lmao. If GamersNexus can be believed, it was extremely deliberate to try and sweep it all under the rug.
I don't think they've clarified which exact models of which serial number ranges are affected with oxidation to this day. It should've been a recall.
Hopefully this bug is getting handled upstream in a microcode update or a compiler fix to avoid emitting such instructions. Just a comment mentioning that you should not emit a particular instruction is not a strong guarantee.
According to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950764#c23 , it is not getting fixed.