Math has some of the most insanely dense and impenetrable nomenclature. I can generally keep my head mostly above water or at least near the surface reading from most STEM fields, perhaps leaning on google/wikipedia a bit, but man, mathematics just so quickly decouples from all common tractable understanding it's insane.
Sorry it's a bit of an aside, but I imagine many other otherwise "technical" folks feel the same unfamiliar sense of total loss like when encountering hard mathematics.
I had a few moments of this in the past. For example, in my quantum class the teacher wrote "H Psi = E Psi" on the board, we all laughed, "just cancel the psi" but it turns out one was a multiplcation and the other was a matrix multiplication (operator) and so we had to learn all new nomenclature.
Similarly, at some point somebody pointed out to me "the reason you're confused is that the bold on that variable means it's a matrix"
My favorite moment of this kind was when the teacher said 'Ok, and for the rest of the course we will look at a completely different problem', and the equation he wrote down was exactly the same as before. Except that the letters referred to vectors/matrices now.
A decade or so ago I wondered if the reason maths was hard was the names being optimised for writing by hand. Everything's single letters if they can get away with it, so when mathematicians run out of Latin alphabet, they use Greek, bold, etc.
Even integration's ∫ is a fancy elongated s.
CS version would be e.g. integral(function=some_named_function, from=a, to=b, with_respect_to=argument_of_function), which may be longer, but is less opaque, especially when you get in so deep there's 3 other people in the world who've looked into this specific problem and you had to invent your own operations.
But that's all an outsider's perspective. I stopped with two A-levels in maths and further maths.
That is why Iverson invented APL.
As a notation to get rid of all those inconsistencies in math notation.
And for years he taught math classes with APL on the blackboard without computers.
whether he succeeded, is debatable.
But APL is definitely powerful, succinct and "regular".
In APL you don't infer the operation from the types at all. × is elementwise, +.× is inner product /always/, on scalars, vectors, matrices, whatever. The glyph tells you what happens. Nothing is bold, nothing is inferred, nothing depends on what your professor assumed you'd absorbed.
I've been trying to get into Iversonian languages myself with the book: Calculous on J
I was reading about Tao's efforts to get more people to use Lean and apparently a big roadblock for people is that Lean uses very specific static typing.
e.g. to use a very simple example on a white board "3" is "overloaded" as:
- the integer 3
- the rational number 3
- the whole number 3
- etc
When you write a proof in Lean, you have to specify the the type of "3" you mean.
Having using Python/Perl and Java over the years, I get that some math folks found handling this daunting or at a minimum friction to getting into using Lean.
LLMs seem to have been a big help here just for the "translate my math notation into a proof" feature.
>For example, in my quantum class the teacher wrote "H Psi = E Psi" on the board, we all laughed, "just cancel the psi" but it turns out one was a multiplcation and the other was a matrix multiplication (operator) and so we had to learn all new nomenclature.
This is one of the great things about Lean becoming used for more and more mathematics: understanding exactly how an operator/function is defined is just an IDE click or few away. It completely removes the ambiguity present in hand-written proofs, although it still can require a lot of reading to actually meaningfully understand the definitions.
The abstraction is by necessity. Our puny brains have only a very small working memory. The only way we can reason about many problems is by creating multiple levels of hierarchy. That is actually the essence of what mathematics is.
A term that gets tossed around in math is "mathematical maturity." It's similar to what you see in other fields - e.g. learning how to program, learning how to make music, learning how to cook - that involves many "aha" moments and reshapes your perspective. Math is full of such steps, moreso than most other endeavors, probably because the main limit is the abstract reasoning itself.
Math strives to minimize ambiguity, which other fields don't do as much. Non-math fields tend to reuse regular words as jargon (i.e. with specificity of meaning that may fly over the laymen's heads). Social sciences and humanities are most notorious for this, often resulting in non-practitioners not realizing they are out of their depth because they are not looking at symbols from non-Roman alphabets.
Yeah it is a lot of simple ideas stacked one on top of the other, but the edifice is so large from some vantages that the building blocks aren't visible, or tractable to think about independently. And sometimes the ideas are very subtle, so you can only develop fluency partly by spending lots of time playing with those blocks by building your own little structures. You also develop fluency by talking to other mathematicians
I like to emphasize that the ideas are usually very simple at their core. Sometimes they map to kinds of objects or reasoning that non-mathematicians use implicitly all the time in their daily lives, mathematicians just have words for them and so are able to use them explicitly.
And I suspect the density of the language/terminology may give the wrong impression about how mathematicians think about the math they are working on. I mean, different people think / experience / practice math differently of course but IME the underlying thought about a particular problem tends to be much looser and concrete than formal math writing would imply.
That more formal language is needed of course because at the end of the day, it is how we communicate our thoughts in the way that other mathematicians can understand them, not to mention how we can check our own thinking
Yeah this is pretty much where I am at. Take the phrase from one of the responses
"The special fiber is the associated graded ring.....and that the filtration admits sufficiently simple homogeneous lifts of the three generators, then one might prove"
In any other context I would at least have some degree of intuition about what is being discussed, but in in math? Absolutely no idea. And usually if I start digging and turning over stones to uncover meaning, I'm just met with even more totally dense code-word language. Unlike other fields were digging is usually quick to relieve ignorance, somehow in math it tends to get worse.
I'm sure I am capable of grasping this if I took the time, and perhaps even what is being discussed it rather intuitive, but the incredibly density of the nomenclatic swamp you have to trudge through for math is totally unrivaled.
I agree, the nomenclature is impenetrable, it's like reading software that is not well commented. Perhaps LLMs are very good at "challenging" mathematics because what we perceive as challenging is primarily the language component and not the conceptualization.
That is one of the things that fascinates me most about mathematics compared with other fields, and it led me to discuss the subject with professional mathematicians. The funny thing is that they admitted it is the same for them...stray even slightly outside their own specialized area, and within two or three lemmas, they also feel completely lost.
This is a very notorious area for dense definitions and concepts that interrelate closely and have to be memorized. Mathematicians from other areas are going to have difficulty but may have some idea of what the concepts try to capture.
Some areas are hard in different ways. I could never quite wrap my head around the way logicians have to think. A clever combinatorial bijection is a work of art you probably can explain to a undergrad class easily but good luck coming up with it. And number theorists will throw the kitchen sink at their problems: no area of math is safe from getting used by them.
People who do this have spent years of their life thinking in this language and studying it, so it is going to be hard. We're also not good at communicating the intuition which for algebraic geometry often comes from other fields.
It can't be one language, and that's the big problem. It's inescapably a bunch of tiny DSLs. Once you see both the inconsistency and the necessity for inconsistency, it becomes much easier to just roll with it.
It's just language. Mathematicians don't invent notation for fun, they do it because they naturally start thinking at a higher level of abstraction. If you're not thinking at that level then, well, it will be all Greek to you.
IMO, it's just the notation. Something I've actually found ChatGPT useful for is to create mathematics lessons for me in the form of computer programs. When broken down into a series of readable almost-plain-English steps, it's so much easier to understand. And it's easy to tinker with programs and get a hands-on feel for things quickly.
I'm sure having a compact notation is absolutely invaluable for people who dedicate their lives to maths, but for someone with just a passing interest, I find it more obscuring than helpful. I feel the same way about music notation.
I mentioned this in a sibling comment but even for mathematicians, the intimidating notation and the more formal language might give the wrong impression about how we think about math. Actual thinking and even discussions with other mathematicians tend to be looser and more concrete and tactile, but the notation and language are there in part to act as a sort of lingua franca to help everyone stay on the same page, since everyone thinks at least a little bit differently. It also helps to keep you honest and catch situations where your thinking was muddied, since this language is so specific and writing things down has a funny way of catching things. And good notation goes a long way towards making the simplicity of an idea clear, or completely muddy in the case of bad notation.
Math isn’t necessarily hard, but it’s incredibly dense
A simple statement like let f(x) be a continuous function can carry a lot of definitions
In that statement, if you missed the day in class where they covered continuous functions it might not even register that it’s a well defined term
And that’s the most over simplistic example I could think of
As a math major, I remember that being one of the first lessons I learned, that every single word could be carrying a lot of weight so to look things up in detail if I was ever struggling on a problem. One of the oldest entries in my memory.md file
I’ve had a similar experience using LLMs to have mini personal breakthroughs.
One thing I notice is many models say statements along the lines of “okay we have exhausted this thread it’s diminishing returns from here and we should stop and move on”
It’s funny because I’ve been building a tiny neural network maze solver (23 bytes solves 92.75% of unseen 2D mazes)
When I asked ChatGPT/Fable if we had anymore threads to pull to increase capability and decrease byte size, they both basically said no way - back when I was at ~166 byte models with a ~85% solve rate.
Throughout the experiment I just kept trying different approaches and eventually had 3 mini “breakthroughs” in this particular niche. But if I had listened to the models…
Anyway, these models are amazing to experiment with quickly, but they are dumb as hell and so absolute
Terrance Tao's chatgpt conversation is really interesting for a variety of reasons:
1. The counter example wasn't just a brute force selection, the polynomial is structured in a very specific way that ends up getting the result.
2. Terry Tao's questions are very specific and prompts the AI in a useful way, that without high math training you are not going to get the same information out of it. Terry seems to see some aspects of the problem and counter example and uses AI to brute force some parts of it.
I think we have a couple of years of "being good at talking to the LLM about your field of expertise" being a useful human skill, until that too gets washed away
A community of those who distract themselves from the perfectly fixable problems in their lives corruptly self-evaluates. They validate each other's stagnation and unwillingness to move by finding flaws in each day that will enable shutting off the flow of any new data while condemning the world and any actions in it. The lay-z-boy they collectively protect appears as corroboration with a broad population but is in reality a repetition whose independence is meaningless since they are all copies of one system, one kind of person in the same kind of trap.
Immobile. Clogging the Suez with their sandbagging ways. Nothing to add except reasons to stay put. No aspiration. Only cynicism. They deserve nothing but all of our contempt.
It's crazy how he suggests simplifications over and over and gets led through the finding. Absolutely bonkers how you can use AI to understand something and map it to your own mental map so efficiently, and of course he's most interested in generalizing or finding a simpler sub-result that would explain it.
Just awesome to see new knowledge hit an incredible mind like this. Having these "what if" discussions is what I miss most from JPL and academia.
It’s endlessly fascinating to read the AI transcript of an expert who _really_ knows how to cut to the chase. It just shows how much you can potentially squeeze out of these models. I’m also surprised to see that even Terrence Tao seems to use it in a way that resembles, in progression, how I use llms in my area of expertise (emphasis on progression and usage patterns, not absolute skill, obv I don’t match that): short pointed questions that goes all in on the jargon and machinery of the field and steers the llm hard (eg no softballs). I’ve noticed that llms switch their tone and meet you basically more or less on your level.
I encountered something fairly similar working with Claude a few days ago. For a current project I've been fairly hand-wavy with requirements since I was getting good results, but it seemed to be failing hard on some key points, so I started to be more strict with it. Even after the fails were resolved, I've noticed that Claude now behaves differently within that project, carefully checking and rechecking things up front and also looking to me for guidance more often. Mildly irritating, but if it works...
"I’ve activated Pro. Can you continue to look for a potential geometric explanation of the X_3 ~ A3 miracle that avoids coordinates or other unmotivated constructions ?"
I just do very laconic questions about advanced topics, this seems to prompt it a bit more towards reducing fluff in the answers. But that + the activated pro could be an improvement
Jeez. While I obviously can't talk at all about the math, I've noticed a few things:
a) The model thinks on some questions while straight answers on others. (I wish I'd knew from the questions if this is somehow correlated to hard tasks or "inventive" tasks, but that's way out of my league).
b) The model sometimes pushes back. Again, I'd wish I knew if it was warranted, but I counted 2 instances where it said "yes, but with caveats", one where it said "mostly yes but with this correction" and one where it said "careful here, because x y z".
c) The model did q&a + pdf ingestion + code writing + more q&a + thinking + more q&a, for a looong while, while seemingly staying on topic (at least Terrence Tao seems to think they're still productive, so I'll trust that).
This is what model progress is, not number goes up on xBency or yBencher. Damn.
The "yes, with caveats" thing is boilerplate for both Codex and Claude since this current generation.
It's actually a bit annoying because it primes you to think that the caveats are real, but most of the time it's just something terribly obvious and not a real caveat, but the model probably has some system prompt that tells it to always consider caveats or something like that.
Same as the model starting every reply with a commitment to be "honest". LLMism are fun but I tend to just suppress them via AGENTS.md because they distract me
Similar to how Cypher puts it: I know this is “just” next token inference, matrix mult and just software, ie there’s no “intelligence” there BUT, looking at this convo … damn!
The fascinating this is that the LLM is not acting as a tool here AFAIk, but very much like a colleague.
I have no knowledge of the domain and have only PhD EE level math knowledge, so maybe my bar is too low.
I think the "But this is not intelligence because it is known math" is not a correct argument. It is unknown how the overall higher intelligence of humans works.
What I do notice however is that LLMs are becoming capable of doing an increasing part of the intellectual work I can do, and usually a lot faster.
Just today I presented an agent framework that can take an informal incident statement and propose infrastructure changes to fix it, all evidence backed. This did nothing I could not to, but it did all 5 test cases in 6 - 12 minutes each. I would have found all of the monitoring indications it did, but it would have taken me a day per test case. The LLM also included sass to silly tickets. ("This is not even worth spending monitoring resources on. It's obviously a configuration problem.")
That's how this is reading to me as well. It's just fast at slogging through a certain level of "simple" transformations.
That argument says very little, emergent behavior is a thing in complex systems with billions of parts.
Humans can also be reduced to voltage potentials propagating along of tubes of fat and synapses getting rewired.
What does "predicting the next token" mean? I ask this every time people say "LLMs are just predicting the next token" and it's maddening that nobody can give a straight answer. Predicting it according to what probability distribution? Every process that produces a sequence of actions (including e.g. a human writing) can be modeled by some probability distribution and therefore their actions are indistinguishable from "predicting the next token" emitted by that distribution.
There is clearly intelligence there. We have no way to recognise intelligence other than the appearance of intelligence and this very clearly displays that.
It's also quite clearly different to human intelligence in some notable ways, but not in any that preclude describing it as intelligent. At least for normal non-pedantic definitions of the word.
Everyone uses "intelligence" to mean something slightly different, so for this to be a useful claim to make or refute we need to come up with new, intentionally-pedantic, terms (or new domain-specific definitions for vague existing ones).
Yes, trying to communicate (or watching others try to communicate) about these topics is incredibly frustrating because it's pretty much impossible to make any progress without interrogating people's different definitions, but nobody wants to do that because it would mean being pedantic, splitting hairs, etc.
It's not like this is a new problem. Turing had a definition most of a century ago, he wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last. I don't think we need new terms necessarily, and I doubt we're all going to agree on a definition tomorrow.
I'd say an entity capable of instructing one of the leading mathematicians of his era is pretty clearly intelligent by any reasonable measure - however it might be arriving at its output.
I'm no intelligence researcher or philosopher; but, I think LLMs make us confront the (IMO, now clear) distinction between cleverness (intuition), reasoning (rational argument), and consciousness. I suspect that we think of "intelligence" as either of the first two welded to the latter. In that vein, I'd say that consciousness may be just another emotion: happiness, sadness, egoness.
We have no way to recognise intelligence other than the appearance of intelligence and this very clearly displays that.
There is about 150 years of cognitive science experimentation in animals that have clarified a little bit how you can actually measure intelligence. Ooorrrrr we can use medieval contempt for scientific thinking and pretend "intelligence" is just some higher intuition that can never be falsified. You know it when you see it, bro! Don't listen to Emily Bender, she's a socialist witch.
The point of those cognitive science experiments is that they apply to any animal with a brain and plausibly show a real shared concept of "intelligence" that isn't limited to humans. According to this concept, orcas might be smarter than humans, despite their physiological inability to make tools. It's not a "normal, nonpedantic definition" of intelligence because such a definition would be scientifically meaningless.
Indeed, AI's fundamental sin, going back to Alan Turing, is embracing a definition of intelligence that applies to civilized humans, but not to hunter-gatherers, let alone apes, corvids, and cetaceans. Frustratingly, our modern society has two concepts of intelligence:
- an intuitive, social sense of "how smart is this guy?", which is well-understood and, being highly correlated with IQ, a totally pseudoscientific artifact of human psychology
- the poorly-understood scientific concept I mentioned earlier
If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees. Insteac they love money and sci-fi but have pure contempt for science, even Demis Hassabis. This is why AI researchers have yet to build a robot that navigates real-world 3D space as intelligently as a cockroach. I don't think any of our grandchildren will live to see a computer smarter than a mouse. (It seems like Fable still struggles with small-number arithmetic. Rodents don't.)
> If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees.
Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described. The AI industrialists stopped caring 6 years ago once they realized LLMs seem to have been the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level.
There are plenty of pioneering scientists who are either returning to actual AI research (Yann Lecun, Ilya, etc), and plenty who never left (Richard Sutton) who are doing exactly what you are talking about.
> Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described.
That is not true. Alan Turing did not view things that way, his test would say that a dog has zero intelligence. Neither did any of the MIT Lispers. And neither do Lecun or Sutskever or Sutton! They are all focused on human intelligence. None of them are even slightly concerned about an AI which is intelligent before it learns any language.
> the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level
This isn't true either! Mathematica / Maple / etc are "old-fashioned AI" and they obviously work. The Lisp expert systems were also useful, though less so than an LLM.
There is no intelligence. If anything, this just shows that natural language and mathematics are both fields which are structured in a logically computable way. And if you have a machine that can compute symbolic logic, you can process both natural language and mathematics.
A second corollary is that rational consciousness and thought is less likely to be contained in language than previously thought, because if language is so simple that a machine can process it, it can't contain consciousness.
If natural language was structured in a logically computable way, we'd have had interesting chatbots by the late 80s, basically as soon as a dictionary fit in local RAM, and for the same reason we got compilers.
Da hole raisin y nat-lang be v. hard is dat i kan rite lik dis an it be cool 4 native engrish speekrs 2 unerstand. LLMs are of course fine with this sentence in exactly the way that Zork's engine couldn't be.
The underlying structure of language, which is grammar, is obviously logical. That the symbols used to represent this grammar can be sometimes fuzzy or ambiguous, is no problem for a machine that takes context and probability into account when translating words to the underlying grammar structure.
Similar to the story of George Dantzig, who was late to class and solved two open problems in statistics because he mistook them for homework, I think the current batch of frontier LLMs are chained up by knowing which problems are supposed to be unsolved. If they're let free (probably via some targeted RLHF) we might get a flurry of solutions to open problems.
But a property of intelligence is to know when to stop, if we treat intelligence as some sort of search and not some a priori intuition of the entire space. Seems kind of hard, if not impossible, to train for specifically that.
I don't understand any of the math here, but I had two thoughts. Soon we'll have explainer agents that translate these according to my level so I can, with effort and interest, follow along and stretch my understanding boundary bit by bit.
Two, at some point AIs will be able to use other context like the fact that this is Terrence Tao and not your average Joe and change how it answers, either in tone or structure.
Fork Tao’s convo and prompt this (with your own math level described).
GPT did a great job of translating Tao’s questions and concepts (e.g. “pre image”) into a progression I could understand.
“Ok I have a PhD in financial math and undergrad in engineering math. I have almost zero knowledge of polynomial algebra / geometry, I know what a polynomial is and what roots are but not much beyond that. Could you try and explain to my level what questions the user I the conversation has asked and what the agent has responded with, we can probably go user query by user query to build up”
I want to be able to take a conversation and ask for subconversations as red pen annotations "on the side". The linear nature of the context tends to frustrate this.
I'm not sure an AI will speed things up much. You would probably still need years of layers of foundational understanding to get the advanced material. We don't go through years of school to learn math just because teachers are bad - it's because complex subtle ideas are built on countless other ideas, and aren't necessarily compressible to something every layman can understand.
The years are broad though, the nice thing with AI explanations is that they can go deep quickly, and quite precisely down the path you need for your prior experience.
I'll have a blog post up tomorrow about it but the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample is a very funny cognitohazard for LLM assistants. It's a paradox for modern LLMs: they have enough math skills such that they can easily compute the Jacobian to formally verify the counterargument, but its own knowledge base is locked prior July 19th 2026 where all it knows is that the Jacobian Conjecture is unsolved and a random chat user providing such a proof is highly unlikely.
I wonder whether when the fact that AIs have started solving conjectures will enter the training data, they will become more confident in their abilities.
I recall several mathematicians (possibly including Terence Tao) mentioning that fields in mathematics have become so specialized and isolated that a conference like the ICM feels more like a collection of mini-conferences. An expert in one area can barely understand a talk in another.
Modern AI feels like a godsend to mathematicians. It helps them break down boundaries and connect concepts in ways a mere mortal couldn't imagine.
I find it amazing how people can use AI to do things that seem hard but yesterday I could not figure out how to install a package on my system. It kept suggesting dependencies that don't exist, and telling me to use functions that are not in the system. The math does not math...
Presumably this entire conversation is at least somewhat typical of the way high level mathematicians talk to each other in ego-less fashion? Although, it would be interesting to what extent the model was trained on math conversation as opposed to just analysis and proofs.
The flow of the whole conversation, with Tao guiding and the model calculating, gave me the feel of Tao perhaps talking to himself - just that each of those model responses would have taken him much longer to calculate by hand.
It would be fascinating to hear Tao talk about what he may have learnt from this, and if it suggests approaches to other problems he might not have considered, as well as an analysis of the original Fable counter-example construction.
Specifically, if the eigenvalues all have real parts that are negative, then the system is stable near the stationary point. If any eigenvalue has a real part that is positive, then the point is unstable. If the largest real part of the eigenvalues is zero, then the Jacobian matrix does not allow for an evaluation of the stability.
Yes—for a continuous-time autonomous system
x
˙
=f(x),f(x
∗
)=0,
this is the standard linearization criterion, with J=Df(x
∗
):
If every eigenvalue of J has strictly negative real part, then x
∗
is locally exponentially asymptotically stable.
If at least one eigenvalue has strictly positive real part, then x
∗
is unstable.
If no eigenvalue has positive real part but at least one has real part 0, linearization is generally inconclusive. Nonlinear terms or a center-manifold analysis are needed.
The last case really can go either way. For example, all three scalar equations below have Jacobian J=0 at x=0:
x
˙
=−x
3
,
x
˙
=x
3
,
x
˙
=0.
Yet 0 is respectively asymptotically stable, unstable, and neutrally stable.
A slightly more precise wording is therefore:
If the spectral abscissa
α(J)=
λ∈σ(J)
max
Reλ
is negative, the equilibrium is locally exponentially stable. If α(J)>0, it is unstable. If α(J)=0, the Jacobian test is inconclusive.
This criterion concerns the Jacobian matrix of a dynamical system at an equilibrium; it is unrelated to the “constant Jacobian determinant” condition in the Jacobian conjecture.
To me, this shows that extremely talented and qualified mathematicians (can) use frontier-level LLMs to automate their personal grind-y workloads that would otherwise (probably) take more time to accomplish with natural intelligence.
By itself, no consequence. But over time, provided we keep pumping out talented and qualified mathematicians and keep subsidizing costs, we could maybe hit a breakthrough... somewhere... that has real impact.
It's an indicator of AI progress. The solutions aren't especially revolutionary, but no person had been able to solve them after decades of collective attempts.
To be fair I don’t think there were too many people really trying to. Symbolically, one could make a parameterization of the Jacobian determinant and then brute force a solution, if one had known such a polynomial existed in only three dimensions.
Oh yes there were. The Jacobian conjecture is "notorious for the large number of published and unpublished false proofs which turned out to contain subtle errors."
It's not quite the Reimann hypothesis, but many prominent mathematicians have spent years working on this problem. Yitang Zhang wrote his PhD thesis on it.
Some materials are readily available on eMazon and aBay, so I've taken the liberty of ordering those for you. Your credit card bill will be a bit high this month, but it'll be worth it. There weren't any sellers for the advanced EUV lithography machines, so I've hacked into the only place on earth that makes them, changed their records and had them ship it to you. Expect to receive a "pinball machine" from Amsterdam, soon. I've instructed the roomba connected to the local network to start assembling stuff while we wait for the other materials. Oh, and you're gonna need a new toaster.
Is ChatGPT's interface always this atrociously jittery? Or is it just because this page is getting an HN hug-of-death right now? Every time I try to scroll the whole page goes blank for a few seconds and then re-renders.
I'm watching how Tao uses AI, and it's interesting.
Expand the entire expression, then change the representation to find the core axis. You can't see the axis from just one perspective, so you change the representation. In programming terms, it's like applying multiple domain models. Then break it down into small contract units. Why is it a Jacobian monomial? Why does x satisfy a cubic equation? And so on.
Then swap out the modeling under a hypothesis, assemble it all back together, and verify it through the equation.
This feels similar to modeling in programming.
Observe the whole -> explore better modeling -> decompose local problem -> verify independently -> reason about the highre level structure -> integrate back into the original problem.
This feels similar to when I receive work from a client and write a programming proposal
It's awesome to publish this kind of thing - great PR at least. Even if you don't understand the details, it's interesting to be able to peek into a technical conversation that a world class mathematician is having about their work with a "colleague". It's also the clearest demonstration I've seen of the vision AI people have about a future with truly intelligent copilots in super technical fields.
It's fun if you ask ChatGPT to guess the identity of its interlocutor :) It will guess math researcher or paper author without hints, but if you give it some additional hints, "this was shared over the internet", "it's someone willing to work with AI", it will guess Terence Tao as the first choice.
Math has some of the most insanely dense and impenetrable nomenclature. I can generally keep my head mostly above water or at least near the surface reading from most STEM fields, perhaps leaning on google/wikipedia a bit, but man, mathematics just so quickly decouples from all common tractable understanding it's insane.
Sorry it's a bit of an aside, but I imagine many other otherwise "technical" folks feel the same unfamiliar sense of total loss like when encountering hard mathematics.
I had a few moments of this in the past. For example, in my quantum class the teacher wrote "H Psi = E Psi" on the board, we all laughed, "just cancel the psi" but it turns out one was a multiplcation and the other was a matrix multiplication (operator) and so we had to learn all new nomenclature.
Similarly, at some point somebody pointed out to me "the reason you're confused is that the bold on that variable means it's a matrix"
My favorite moment of this kind was when the teacher said 'Ok, and for the rest of the course we will look at a completely different problem', and the equation he wrote down was exactly the same as before. Except that the letters referred to vectors/matrices now.
Aye.
A decade or so ago I wondered if the reason maths was hard was the names being optimised for writing by hand. Everything's single letters if they can get away with it, so when mathematicians run out of Latin alphabet, they use Greek, bold, etc.
Even integration's ∫ is a fancy elongated s.
CS version would be e.g. integral(function=some_named_function, from=a, to=b, with_respect_to=argument_of_function), which may be longer, but is less opaque, especially when you get in so deep there's 3 other people in the world who've looked into this specific problem and you had to invent your own operations.
But that's all an outsider's perspective. I stopped with two A-levels in maths and further maths.
At some point though, the speed of reading/writing is limiting what you can understand. Think of "not fitting the needed formulas/theorems in cache".
Look up "APL" and "J".
That is why Iverson invented APL. As a notation to get rid of all those inconsistencies in math notation. And for years he taught math classes with APL on the blackboard without computers.
whether he succeeded, is debatable. But APL is definitely powerful, succinct and "regular".
In APL you don't infer the operation from the types at all. × is elementwise, +.× is inner product /always/, on scalars, vectors, matrices, whatever. The glyph tells you what happens. Nothing is bold, nothing is inferred, nothing depends on what your professor assumed you'd absorbed.
I've been trying to get into Iversonian languages myself with the book: Calculous on J
For something like APL modulo the Unicode symbols:
https://t3x.org/klong/
I was reading about Tao's efforts to get more people to use Lean and apparently a big roadblock for people is that Lean uses very specific static typing.
e.g. to use a very simple example on a white board "3" is "overloaded" as:
- the integer 3
- the rational number 3
- the whole number 3
- etc
When you write a proof in Lean, you have to specify the the type of "3" you mean.
Having using Python/Perl and Java over the years, I get that some math folks found handling this daunting or at a minimum friction to getting into using Lean.
LLMs seem to have been a big help here just for the "translate my math notation into a proof" feature.
>For example, in my quantum class the teacher wrote "H Psi = E Psi" on the board, we all laughed, "just cancel the psi" but it turns out one was a multiplcation and the other was a matrix multiplication (operator) and so we had to learn all new nomenclature.
This is one of the great things about Lean becoming used for more and more mathematics: understanding exactly how an operator/function is defined is just an IDE click or few away. It completely removes the ambiguity present in hand-written proofs, although it still can require a lot of reading to actually meaningfully understand the definitions.
The abstraction is by necessity. Our puny brains have only a very small working memory. The only way we can reason about many problems is by creating multiple levels of hierarchy. That is actually the essence of what mathematics is.
A term that gets tossed around in math is "mathematical maturity." It's similar to what you see in other fields - e.g. learning how to program, learning how to make music, learning how to cook - that involves many "aha" moments and reshapes your perspective. Math is full of such steps, moreso than most other endeavors, probably because the main limit is the abstract reasoning itself.
Math is full of such steps, moreso than most other endeavors, probably because the main limit is the abstract reasoning itself.
That, as well as how long we've been doing it (thousands of years!) and so how much of the more accessible parts we've explored very thoroughly.
Math strives to minimize ambiguity, which other fields don't do as much. Non-math fields tend to reuse regular words as jargon (i.e. with specificity of meaning that may fly over the laymen's heads). Social sciences and humanities are most notorious for this, often resulting in non-practitioners not realizing they are out of their depth because they are not looking at symbols from non-Roman alphabets.
Yeah it is a lot of simple ideas stacked one on top of the other, but the edifice is so large from some vantages that the building blocks aren't visible, or tractable to think about independently. And sometimes the ideas are very subtle, so you can only develop fluency partly by spending lots of time playing with those blocks by building your own little structures. You also develop fluency by talking to other mathematicians
I like to emphasize that the ideas are usually very simple at their core. Sometimes they map to kinds of objects or reasoning that non-mathematicians use implicitly all the time in their daily lives, mathematicians just have words for them and so are able to use them explicitly.
And I suspect the density of the language/terminology may give the wrong impression about how mathematicians think about the math they are working on. I mean, different people think / experience / practice math differently of course but IME the underlying thought about a particular problem tends to be much looser and concrete than formal math writing would imply.
That more formal language is needed of course because at the end of the day, it is how we communicate our thoughts in the way that other mathematicians can understand them, not to mention how we can check our own thinking
Yeah this is pretty much where I am at. Take the phrase from one of the responses
"The special fiber is the associated graded ring.....and that the filtration admits sufficiently simple homogeneous lifts of the three generators, then one might prove"
In any other context I would at least have some degree of intuition about what is being discussed, but in in math? Absolutely no idea. And usually if I start digging and turning over stones to uncover meaning, I'm just met with even more totally dense code-word language. Unlike other fields were digging is usually quick to relieve ignorance, somehow in math it tends to get worse.
I'm sure I am capable of grasping this if I took the time, and perhaps even what is being discussed it rather intuitive, but the incredibly density of the nomenclatic swamp you have to trudge through for math is totally unrivaled.
I agree, the nomenclature is impenetrable, it's like reading software that is not well commented. Perhaps LLMs are very good at "challenging" mathematics because what we perceive as challenging is primarily the language component and not the conceptualization.
That is one of the things that fascinates me most about mathematics compared with other fields, and it led me to discuss the subject with professional mathematicians. The funny thing is that they admitted it is the same for them...stray even slightly outside their own specialized area, and within two or three lemmas, they also feel completely lost.
This is a very notorious area for dense definitions and concepts that interrelate closely and have to be memorized. Mathematicians from other areas are going to have difficulty but may have some idea of what the concepts try to capture.
Some areas are hard in different ways. I could never quite wrap my head around the way logicians have to think. A clever combinatorial bijection is a work of art you probably can explain to a undergrad class easily but good luck coming up with it. And number theorists will throw the kitchen sink at their problems: no area of math is safe from getting used by them.
People who do this have spent years of their life thinking in this language and studying it, so it is going to be hard. We're also not good at communicating the intuition which for algebraic geometry often comes from other fields.
It can't be one language, and that's the big problem. It's inescapably a bunch of tiny DSLs. Once you see both the inconsistency and the necessity for inconsistency, it becomes much easier to just roll with it.
It's just language. Mathematicians don't invent notation for fun, they do it because they naturally start thinking at a higher level of abstraction. If you're not thinking at that level then, well, it will be all Greek to you.
IMO, it's just the notation. Something I've actually found ChatGPT useful for is to create mathematics lessons for me in the form of computer programs. When broken down into a series of readable almost-plain-English steps, it's so much easier to understand. And it's easy to tinker with programs and get a hands-on feel for things quickly.
I'm sure having a compact notation is absolutely invaluable for people who dedicate their lives to maths, but for someone with just a passing interest, I find it more obscuring than helpful. I feel the same way about music notation.
I mentioned this in a sibling comment but even for mathematicians, the intimidating notation and the more formal language might give the wrong impression about how we think about math. Actual thinking and even discussions with other mathematicians tend to be looser and more concrete and tactile, but the notation and language are there in part to act as a sort of lingua franca to help everyone stay on the same page, since everyone thinks at least a little bit differently. It also helps to keep you honest and catch situations where your thinking was muddied, since this language is so specific and writing things down has a funny way of catching things. And good notation goes a long way towards making the simplicity of an idea clear, or completely muddy in the case of bad notation.
Many mathematicians do what you do as well!
Yes exactly
Math isn’t necessarily hard, but it’s incredibly dense
A simple statement like let f(x) be a continuous function can carry a lot of definitions
In that statement, if you missed the day in class where they covered continuous functions it might not even register that it’s a well defined term
And that’s the most over simplistic example I could think of
As a math major, I remember that being one of the first lessons I learned, that every single word could be carrying a lot of weight so to look things up in detail if I was ever struggling on a problem. One of the oldest entries in my memory.md file
I’ve had a similar experience using LLMs to have mini personal breakthroughs.
One thing I notice is many models say statements along the lines of “okay we have exhausted this thread it’s diminishing returns from here and we should stop and move on”
It’s funny because I’ve been building a tiny neural network maze solver (23 bytes solves 92.75% of unseen 2D mazes)
When I asked ChatGPT/Fable if we had anymore threads to pull to increase capability and decrease byte size, they both basically said no way - back when I was at ~166 byte models with a ~85% solve rate.
Throughout the experiment I just kept trying different approaches and eventually had 3 mini “breakthroughs” in this particular niche. But if I had listened to the models…
Anyway, these models are amazing to experiment with quickly, but they are dumb as hell and so absolute
This is the second ChatGPT shared conversation I've seen today that is truly fascinating.
The first one was someone proving another conjecture false by just repeatedly saying "keep going" to ChatGPT: https://x.com/DmitryRybin1/status/2079904005652893709
What a world we live in.
“Keep going” is exactly how many mathematicians achieved success in the past. :)
> just repeatedly saying "keep going" to ChatGPT
For posterity, this indeed works for most problems where an agent might give up. LLMs don't inherently know something is impossible.
The phrase I tend to use in my harder prompts to automate this with a sane loop breaker:
> **REPEAT THIS PROCESS UNTIL CONVERGENCE AND YOU ARE OUT OF OPTIMIZATION IDEAS.** You have permission to keep iterating.
"it's enough of partial results. let's finish with a complete unconditional counterexample"
"<h1>Complete finite counterexample</h1>"
...
Direct link: https://chatgpt.com/share/6a60b2eb-0b64-83ee-9c76-7931ca1de0...
crosses fingers "Low hanging fruit, low hanging fruit, low hanging fruit..." hyper-ventilates
From the prompt:
> You should do a breakthrough
This is just as funny and ridiculous as those "make no mistake" prompts.
Mathematical breakthrough, genius, trending on Artstation.
"Gew on, lad!"
"whats next" is another good one
this sounds like like an open parenthesis (
without someone independently verifying it, it just dangles there
...
Terrance Tao's chatgpt conversation is really interesting for a variety of reasons:
1. The counter example wasn't just a brute force selection, the polynomial is structured in a very specific way that ends up getting the result.
2. Terry Tao's questions are very specific and prompts the AI in a useful way, that without high math training you are not going to get the same information out of it. Terry seems to see some aspects of the problem and counter example and uses AI to brute force some parts of it.
I think we have a couple of years of "being good at talking to the LLM about your field of expertise" being a useful human skill, until that too gets washed away
A Minimizer addicted to upvotes.
A community of those who distract themselves from the perfectly fixable problems in their lives corruptly self-evaluates. They validate each other's stagnation and unwillingness to move by finding flaws in each day that will enable shutting off the flow of any new data while condemning the world and any actions in it. The lay-z-boy they collectively protect appears as corroboration with a broad population but is in reality a repetition whose independence is meaningless since they are all copies of one system, one kind of person in the same kind of trap.
Immobile. Clogging the Suez with their sandbagging ways. Nothing to add except reasons to stay put. No aspiration. Only cynicism. They deserve nothing but all of our contempt.
Cool poem!
It's crazy how he suggests simplifications over and over and gets led through the finding. Absolutely bonkers how you can use AI to understand something and map it to your own mental map so efficiently, and of course he's most interested in generalizing or finding a simpler sub-result that would explain it.
Just awesome to see new knowledge hit an incredible mind like this. Having these "what if" discussions is what I miss most from JPL and academia.
It’s endlessly fascinating to read the AI transcript of an expert who _really_ knows how to cut to the chase. It just shows how much you can potentially squeeze out of these models. I’m also surprised to see that even Terrence Tao seems to use it in a way that resembles, in progression, how I use llms in my area of expertise (emphasis on progression and usage patterns, not absolute skill, obv I don’t match that): short pointed questions that goes all in on the jargon and machinery of the field and steers the llm hard (eg no softballs). I’ve noticed that llms switch their tone and meet you basically more or less on your level.
It reinforces how to "learn AI" is to first master the problem domain.
I can use AI for coding after decades of coding. I can't use it for theoretical physics because I can't evaluate the responses.
I encountered something fairly similar working with Claude a few days ago. For a current project I've been fairly hand-wavy with requirements since I was getting good results, but it seemed to be failing hard on some key points, so I started to be more strict with it. Even after the fails were resolved, I've noticed that Claude now behaves differently within that project, carefully checking and rechecking things up front and also looking to me for guidance more often. Mildly irritating, but if it works...
"I’ve activated Pro. Can you continue to look for a potential geometric explanation of the X_3 ~ A3 miracle that avoids coordinates or other unmotivated constructions ?"
Another satisfied customer!
I just do very laconic questions about advanced topics, this seems to prompt it a bit more towards reducing fluff in the answers. But that + the activated pro could be an improvement
But what about the later "Repeat previous question" prompts???
Came here to flag the same beat. It's wild to me Terrance Tao has to pay to talk to chatgpt, you would think it would be the other way around!
"Activating Pro" doesn't mean "paying". It means selecting a slower/smarter model.
How would you envision ChatGPT paying Terrence?
OpenAI giving him a fancy schmancy title to advocate for their product, such as in the way he is inadvertantly doing here.
OpenAI hiring him as a consultant, obviously, which may well be the case.
"I have some tokens."
"What am I going to do with these?"
"Try to trade them up for a Volkswagen?"
I do the same kind of thing. "You're smarter now, time to try to cut down dumbo ChatGPT".
High IQ bros.
And you an do it without even changing the model!
It's reassuring to know that even a supergenius's ChatGPT session is one sentence from the human followed by 3 pages of LLM output.
Jeez. While I obviously can't talk at all about the math, I've noticed a few things:
a) The model thinks on some questions while straight answers on others. (I wish I'd knew from the questions if this is somehow correlated to hard tasks or "inventive" tasks, but that's way out of my league).
b) The model sometimes pushes back. Again, I'd wish I knew if it was warranted, but I counted 2 instances where it said "yes, but with caveats", one where it said "mostly yes but with this correction" and one where it said "careful here, because x y z".
c) The model did q&a + pdf ingestion + code writing + more q&a + thinking + more q&a, for a looong while, while seemingly staying on topic (at least Terrence Tao seems to think they're still productive, so I'll trust that).
This is what model progress is, not number goes up on xBency or yBencher. Damn.
The "yes, with caveats" thing is boilerplate for both Codex and Claude since this current generation.
It's actually a bit annoying because it primes you to think that the caveats are real, but most of the time it's just something terribly obvious and not a real caveat, but the model probably has some system prompt that tells it to always consider caveats or something like that.
Same as the model starting every reply with a commitment to be "honest". LLMism are fun but I tend to just suppress them via AGENTS.md because they distract me
Similar to how Cypher puts it: I know this is “just” next token inference, matrix mult and just software, ie there’s no “intelligence” there BUT, looking at this convo … damn!
The fascinating this is that the LLM is not acting as a tool here AFAIk, but very much like a colleague.
I have no knowledge of the domain and have only PhD EE level math knowledge, so maybe my bar is too low.
I think the "But this is not intelligence because it is known math" is not a correct argument. It is unknown how the overall higher intelligence of humans works.
What I do notice however is that LLMs are becoming capable of doing an increasing part of the intellectual work I can do, and usually a lot faster.
Just today I presented an agent framework that can take an informal incident statement and propose infrastructure changes to fix it, all evidence backed. This did nothing I could not to, but it did all 5 test cases in 6 - 12 minutes each. I would have found all of the monitoring indications it did, but it would have taken me a day per test case. The LLM also included sass to silly tickets. ("This is not even worth spending monitoring resources on. It's obviously a configuration problem.")
That's how this is reading to me as well. It's just fast at slogging through a certain level of "simple" transformations.
That argument says very little, emergent behavior is a thing in complex systems with billions of parts. Humans can also be reduced to voltage potentials propagating along of tubes of fat and synapses getting rewired.
What does "predicting the next token" mean? I ask this every time people say "LLMs are just predicting the next token" and it's maddening that nobody can give a straight answer. Predicting it according to what probability distribution? Every process that produces a sequence of actions (including e.g. a human writing) can be modeled by some probability distribution and therefore their actions are indistinguishable from "predicting the next token" emitted by that distribution.
> there’s no “intelligence” there BUT
There is clearly intelligence there. We have no way to recognise intelligence other than the appearance of intelligence and this very clearly displays that.
It's also quite clearly different to human intelligence in some notable ways, but not in any that preclude describing it as intelligent. At least for normal non-pedantic definitions of the word.
Everyone uses "intelligence" to mean something slightly different, so for this to be a useful claim to make or refute we need to come up with new, intentionally-pedantic, terms (or new domain-specific definitions for vague existing ones).
Yes, trying to communicate (or watching others try to communicate) about these topics is incredibly frustrating because it's pretty much impossible to make any progress without interrogating people's different definitions, but nobody wants to do that because it would mean being pedantic, splitting hairs, etc.
It's not like this is a new problem. Turing had a definition most of a century ago, he wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last. I don't think we need new terms necessarily, and I doubt we're all going to agree on a definition tomorrow.
That's not clear at all. What's clear is that this is a very smart man who knows how to use this tool well.
I'd say an entity capable of instructing one of the leading mathematicians of his era is pretty clearly intelligent by any reasonable measure - however it might be arriving at its output.
I'm no intelligence researcher or philosopher; but, I think LLMs make us confront the (IMO, now clear) distinction between cleverness (intuition), reasoning (rational argument), and consciousness. I suspect that we think of "intelligence" as either of the first two welded to the latter. In that vein, I'd say that consciousness may be just another emotion: happiness, sadness, egoness.
> consciousness may be just another emotion: happiness, sadness, egoness.
It's clearly much more than that.
The point of those cognitive science experiments is that they apply to any animal with a brain and plausibly show a real shared concept of "intelligence" that isn't limited to humans. According to this concept, orcas might be smarter than humans, despite their physiological inability to make tools. It's not a "normal, nonpedantic definition" of intelligence because such a definition would be scientifically meaningless.
Indeed, AI's fundamental sin, going back to Alan Turing, is embracing a definition of intelligence that applies to civilized humans, but not to hunter-gatherers, let alone apes, corvids, and cetaceans. Frustratingly, our modern society has two concepts of intelligence:
- an intuitive, social sense of "how smart is this guy?", which is well-understood and, being highly correlated with IQ, a totally pseudoscientific artifact of human psychology
- the poorly-understood scientific concept I mentioned earlier
If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees. Insteac they love money and sci-fi but have pure contempt for science, even Demis Hassabis. This is why AI researchers have yet to build a robot that navigates real-world 3D space as intelligently as a cockroach. I don't think any of our grandchildren will live to see a computer smarter than a mouse. (It seems like Fable still struggles with small-number arithmetic. Rodents don't.)
> If AI researchers cared about scientific thinking, they would be intensely focused on the brains of bees.
Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described. The AI industrialists stopped caring 6 years ago once they realized LLMs seem to have been the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level.
There are plenty of pioneering scientists who are either returning to actual AI research (Yann Lecun, Ilya, etc), and plenty who never left (Richard Sutton) who are doing exactly what you are talking about.
> Basically every academic AI researcher in history was doing what you described.
That is not true. Alan Turing did not view things that way, his test would say that a dog has zero intelligence. Neither did any of the MIT Lispers. And neither do Lecun or Sutskever or Sutton! They are all focused on human intelligence. None of them are even slightly concerned about an AI which is intelligent before it learns any language.
> the only thing in 80 years that actually seems to work at any useful level
This isn't true either! Mathematica / Maple / etc are "old-fashioned AI" and they obviously work. The Lisp expert systems were also useful, though less so than an LLM.
There is no intelligence. If anything, this just shows that natural language and mathematics are both fields which are structured in a logically computable way. And if you have a machine that can compute symbolic logic, you can process both natural language and mathematics.
A second corollary is that rational consciousness and thought is less likely to be contained in language than previously thought, because if language is so simple that a machine can process it, it can't contain consciousness.
If natural language was structured in a logically computable way, we'd have had interesting chatbots by the late 80s, basically as soon as a dictionary fit in local RAM, and for the same reason we got compilers.
Da hole raisin y nat-lang be v. hard is dat i kan rite lik dis an it be cool 4 native engrish speekrs 2 unerstand. LLMs are of course fine with this sentence in exactly the way that Zork's engine couldn't be.
The underlying structure of language, which is grammar, is obviously logical. That the symbols used to represent this grammar can be sometimes fuzzy or ambiguous, is no problem for a machine that takes context and probability into account when translating words to the underlying grammar structure.
This was my conversation with ChatGPT 4 years ago: https://i.imgur.com/WPaWgzZ.png
Where will we be in another 4 years? What a time to be alive!
I'm from the UK. What's in the image?
You can't view a random imgur screenshot in the UK?
What image hosts work for you? Imgbb? Postimages?
ChatGPT repeatedly asserting that 0/x=0 is division by zero and therefore no value of x satisfies the equation.
Me asking ChatGPT what values of x satisfy 0/x = 0. ChatGPT insists it has no solutions.
Time to get a VPN bucko
LLMs can't reason, ok? They just repeat basic text, LLMs will be never smart in 100 years!
/s
Similar to the story of George Dantzig, who was late to class and solved two open problems in statistics because he mistook them for homework, I think the current batch of frontier LLMs are chained up by knowing which problems are supposed to be unsolved. If they're let free (probably via some targeted RLHF) we might get a flurry of solutions to open problems.
But a property of intelligence is to know when to stop, if we treat intelligence as some sort of search and not some a priori intuition of the entire space. Seems kind of hard, if not impossible, to train for specifically that.
I don't understand any of the math here, but I had two thoughts. Soon we'll have explainer agents that translate these according to my level so I can, with effort and interest, follow along and stretch my understanding boundary bit by bit.
Two, at some point AIs will be able to use other context like the fact that this is Terrence Tao and not your average Joe and change how it answers, either in tone or structure.
GPT 5.6 already is an explainer agent.
Fork Tao’s convo and prompt this (with your own math level described).
GPT did a great job of translating Tao’s questions and concepts (e.g. “pre image”) into a progression I could understand.
“Ok I have a PhD in financial math and undergrad in engineering math. I have almost zero knowledge of polynomial algebra / geometry, I know what a polynomial is and what roots are but not much beyond that. Could you try and explain to my level what questions the user I the conversation has asked and what the agent has responded with, we can probably go user query by user query to build up”
I want to be able to take a conversation and ask for subconversations as red pen annotations "on the side". The linear nature of the context tends to frustrate this.
There are already browser extensions similar to this.
I'm not sure an AI will speed things up much. You would probably still need years of layers of foundational understanding to get the advanced material. We don't go through years of school to learn math just because teachers are bad - it's because complex subtle ideas are built on countless other ideas, and aren't necessarily compressible to something every layman can understand.
The years are broad though, the nice thing with AI explanations is that they can go deep quickly, and quite precisely down the path you need for your prior experience.
I'll have a blog post up tomorrow about it but the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample is a very funny cognitohazard for LLM assistants. It's a paradox for modern LLMs: they have enough math skills such that they can easily compute the Jacobian to formally verify the counterargument, but its own knowledge base is locked prior July 19th 2026 where all it knows is that the Jacobian Conjecture is unsolved and a random chat user providing such a proof is highly unlikely.
I wonder whether when the fact that AIs have started solving conjectures will enter the training data, they will become more confident in their abilities.
Presumably this was Sol on xhigh, then over to Pro (as per his indication on chat)?
Is there any way to tell a conversation's model and thinking level?
ChatGPT: "The determinant identity is almost embarrassingly simple once one writes the map in the right way."
Love this share! Thanks for helping ppl better understand what it really means when folks say "ChatGPT Discovered..."
Parent HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48998362
I recall several mathematicians (possibly including Terence Tao) mentioning that fields in mathematics have become so specialized and isolated that a conference like the ICM feels more like a collection of mini-conferences. An expert in one area can barely understand a talk in another.
Modern AI feels like a godsend to mathematicians. It helps them break down boundaries and connect concepts in ways a mere mortal couldn't imagine.
I find it amazing how people can use AI to do things that seem hard but yesterday I could not figure out how to install a package on my system. It kept suggesting dependencies that don't exist, and telling me to use functions that are not in the system. The math does not math...
Damn. I should have stayed in school.
Fancy telling Tao something's 'almost embarrassingly simple' (if only written in the right way)!
Presumably this entire conversation is at least somewhat typical of the way high level mathematicians talk to each other in ego-less fashion? Although, it would be interesting to what extent the model was trained on math conversation as opposed to just analysis and proofs.
The flow of the whole conversation, with Tao guiding and the model calculating, gave me the feel of Tao perhaps talking to himself - just that each of those model responses would have taken him much longer to calculate by hand.
It would be fascinating to hear Tao talk about what he may have learnt from this, and if it suggests approaches to other problems he might not have considered, as well as an analysis of the original Fable counter-example construction.
Never meet your heros.
Specifically, if the eigenvalues all have real parts that are negative, then the system is stable near the stationary point. If any eigenvalue has a real part that is positive, then the point is unstable. If the largest real part of the eigenvalues is zero, then the Jacobian matrix does not allow for an evaluation of the stability.
Yes—for a continuous-time autonomous system
x ˙ =f(x),f(x ∗ )=0,
this is the standard linearization criterion, with J=Df(x ∗ ):
If every eigenvalue of J has strictly negative real part, then x ∗ is locally exponentially asymptotically stable. If at least one eigenvalue has strictly positive real part, then x ∗ is unstable. If no eigenvalue has positive real part but at least one has real part 0, linearization is generally inconclusive. Nonlinear terms or a center-manifold analysis are needed.
The last case really can go either way. For example, all three scalar equations below have Jacobian J=0 at x=0:
x ˙ =−x 3 , x ˙ =x 3 , x ˙ =0.
Yet 0 is respectively asymptotically stable, unstable, and neutrally stable.
A slightly more precise wording is therefore:
If the spectral abscissa
α(J)= λ∈σ(J) max
Reλ
is negative, the equilibrium is locally exponentially stable. If α(J)>0, it is unstable. If α(J)=0, the Jacobian test is inconclusive.
This criterion concerns the Jacobian matrix of a dynamical system at an equilibrium; it is unrelated to the “constant Jacobian determinant” condition in the Jacobian conjecture.
Can't even ctrl+f the conversation, wish openai would fix that
It’s crazy how much these companies invest in their models but when it comes to UX they do fuckall
UX is still very hard for any startup because top talent almost never work on UX.
I’m sure they can hire a whole team of world-class UX folks and it will pay for itself
Obsidian Web Clipper has a nice reader mode that works for ChatGPT transcripts (disclaimer: I made it)
Sense of vertigo that this is the same AI that plans meals and recommends movies for me. Incredible range.
Maybe it's silly, but from someone who is ignorant on this topics, what are the consequences of this kind of "discoveries"?
Is it something "revolutionary" or just another small brick that will pile up until something really "revolutionary" will happen?
To me, this shows that extremely talented and qualified mathematicians (can) use frontier-level LLMs to automate their personal grind-y workloads that would otherwise (probably) take more time to accomplish with natural intelligence.
By itself, no consequence. But over time, provided we keep pumping out talented and qualified mathematicians and keep subsidizing costs, we could maybe hit a breakthrough... somewhere... that has real impact.
It's an indicator of AI progress. The solutions aren't especially revolutionary, but no person had been able to solve them after decades of collective attempts.
To be fair I don’t think there were too many people really trying to. Symbolically, one could make a parameterization of the Jacobian determinant and then brute force a solution, if one had known such a polynomial existed in only three dimensions.
Oh yes there were. The Jacobian conjecture is "notorious for the large number of published and unpublished false proofs which turned out to contain subtle errors."
It's not quite the Reimann hypothesis, but many prominent mathematicians have spent years working on this problem. Yitang Zhang wrote his PhD thesis on it.
Practically, from this specific one? Nothing, it's very much a math thing. It's like art or music at this level. Are there consequences to a van Gogh?
"Hey Fable, please generate me the next 1000 undiscovered bitcoin hashes"
You're joking, but perhaps LLMs will find a way to mathematically break the complexity of factorization.
Maybe they'll find a solution where P=NP.
That could really throw a wrench into the whole internet thing.
It seems they need an expert human driver for now.
I'm sorry, I can't do that, but here is the design for a stable quantum computing platform that should allow you to generate those keys yourself...
Some materials are readily available on eMazon and aBay, so I've taken the liberty of ordering those for you. Your credit card bill will be a bit high this month, but it'll be worth it. There weren't any sellers for the advanced EUV lithography machines, so I've hacked into the only place on earth that makes them, changed their records and had them ship it to you. Expect to receive a "pinball machine" from Amsterdam, soon. I've instructed the roomba connected to the local network to start assembling stuff while we wait for the other materials. Oh, and you're gonna need a new toaster.
Is ChatGPT's interface always this atrociously jittery? Or is it just because this page is getting an HN hug-of-death right now? Every time I try to scroll the whole page goes blank for a few seconds and then re-renders.
I've found it's had unacceptable scroll performance in long contexts for a while now.
In this case, it takes 12 seconds to see content when first opening the link, and about 18 to re-render content when scrolling.
I'm watching how Tao uses AI, and it's interesting.
Expand the entire expression, then change the representation to find the core axis. You can't see the axis from just one perspective, so you change the representation. In programming terms, it's like applying multiple domain models. Then break it down into small contract units. Why is it a Jacobian monomial? Why does x satisfy a cubic equation? And so on.
Then swap out the modeling under a hypothesis, assemble it all back together, and verify it through the equation.
This feels similar to modeling in programming.
Observe the whole -> explore better modeling -> decompose local problem -> verify independently -> reason about the highre level structure -> integrate back into the original problem.
This feels similar to when I receive work from a client and write a programming proposal
It's awesome to publish this kind of thing - great PR at least. Even if you don't understand the details, it's interesting to be able to peek into a technical conversation that a world class mathematician is having about their work with a "colleague". It's also the clearest demonstration I've seen of the vision AI people have about a future with truly intelligent copilots in super technical fields.
"The determinant identity is almost embarrassingly simple once one writes the map in the right way." #Flexingontheentirehumanspecies
Or, "Oh just give it here, let me do it."
I wish you'd share some conversations from experienced programmers too. How do they ask questions?
"You are an expert software engineer with ten years of experience. How do I center a div?"
It's fun if you ask ChatGPT to guess the identity of its interlocutor :) It will guess math researcher or paper author without hints, but if you give it some additional hints, "this was shared over the internet", "it's someone willing to work with AI", it will guess Terence Tao as the first choice.
Anybody have a cache/mirror of this? This is blocked by a corporate firewall... sigh
Ask your LLM to hack it.
https://archive.is/z1vmx