The problem with complex systems is that you can be dead long before you realize you're dead. Things can continue to seem "pretty good" for a long time just from the inertia of past good decisions and built-up infrastructure. You see some fraying or cracks but everything looks fundamentally sound, until it isn't.
Apple's inability to deploy a new UI framework that's better than the previous one is troubling. This is the company that shifted from Toolbox to Carbon to Cocoa and each step was better than the last. Could Apple build MacOS X and Cocoa today if they didn't already exist? Microsoft's two decades of failure to ship a true successor to Win32 suggests that Microsoft (at least, the operating system side of the company) died a long time ago. I wonder if we'll say the same thing about Apple 10 years hence.
I think the main issue is the functional approach. Having a functional approach to state can be quite elegant, but ultimately the computer does not do functional. You have to implement a lot of plumbing to have stuff that is a bit performance (clojure), or just add a veneer of functional over what is essentially a normal state machine (emacs).
React works well, because it's only an abstraction over the real DOM. React only handles your app state. But the DOM mechanism is still very performant and very much imperative. But I don't think something like React would work well in a mobile app, because the UI tree is often very simple on iOS and macOS.
Functional doesn't mean stateless. I'd argue functional programming is superior for representing state in user interfaces. For a success implementation, see Jane Street's Bonsai:
> functional programming is superior for representing state in user interfaces
It's always going to be slower than using something imperative. Trying to process the entire world's state for the sake of purity can feel elegant but it isn't free. And the complexity that gets added to make things performant is worse than just accepting that UIs are going to require you to jump around the tree and modify state.
Every time I go through the trouble of understanding the latest web technique (React, Elm, Signals (the newest solution), etc.) to deal with state management and the DOM, I end up walking away disappointed. There's nothing new in them that you can use to improve what we've been doing for ages in native GUI toolkits.
And to jump back to the point of this thread, yes, Cocoa was pretty decent, and SwiftUI while nice in many ways tries to Reactify native macOS development and make it worse. And it made Swift incredibly more complex and worse in hindsight.
User interfaces representation are mostly trees. And with functional programming you basically have Tree2 = f(Tree1). Until f is done you can't do anything really. React has a lot of escape hatches to improve performance, but they are escape hatches, not an endorsement of the architecture.
With imperative programming (and OOP), you only have that single `Tree`, which you update at will. Less elegant yes, but we have modularization to help us there. What Emacs does is to keep that `Tree` as a single mutable object, but have the code be functional, while the results are imperative.
I’m no huge apple fan, but I didn’t really think the 17 was more than a regular boring spec upgrade, which seems fine all things considered. (Currently on an iPhone fucking 17)
I'm sure many will disagree, but I have doubts that pure declarative-reactive is the "right" shape for an all-purpose native UI framework. In my experience, Kotlin+Compose shares many of the same warts… its main redeeming quality is that it's better than Android Framework (most of the time), which is low bar to clear.
These frameworks have a number of good ideas but they don't necessarily combine in a way that transcends high quality traditional imperative frameworks with declarative-reactive bits sprinkled throughout, at least for more complex apps. SwiftUI and its ilk work best for super simple tabs-and-flat-lists sorts of apps.
I think open source is the right move here. The great thing about Flutter is you get the declarative UI to build a lot of standard screens easily but you can always drop down to lower levels, inspect the standard components, mix and match with your custom implementation.
You can mix UKit and SwiftUI but there’s way more friction due to the closed nature of the SDK.
Fully agree (been an early Flutter adopter!). It's always the right too for the right job, declarativness makes a lot of sense for most UIs. UIs are surprisingly more complicated than one might think, there is accessibility/ theming/ keyboard traversal etc., just declaring UI and letting the framework figure out the rest has held up pretty well.
And because of the open source nature you can always drop down in layers, just a few weeks ago I made a very specific engine optimization, all while the application code on-top can stay declarative!
Perhaps. Certainly source visibility makes life easier as a dev who has to live with these frameworks on a daily basis. That said, I think frameworks should strive to have a wide and deep enough set of widgets that in most cases, devs won't need to resort to custom implementations to do what they need to.
It also doesn't fix problems inherent to declarative UI, like readability breaking down easily and certain things that would be a cinch in an imperative framework being extremely awkward to implement.
What does this even mean? There are hundreds of thousands of apps in the App Store that are 100% SwiftUI. They are real. And they are very much "production grade".
The only people still complaining about SwiftUI 7 years later are the UIKit holdouts that never took the time to properly learn how to use it.
SwiftUI it is the type of framework that makes the easy things easier to accomplish but the harder things harder.
It is a newbie trap. It is great at producing simple apps, or things that don't require intense scrolling, or anything with heavy animations and precise layouts, but when you do something smooth, it is not it. It feels more of a React Native competitor, than a true UIKit replacement.
Also, almost everything that Apple has re-wrote with SwiftUI, came out worse as before (Settings, Spotlight, etc), and that doesn't help.
With AI coding... SwiftUI lost its edge/advantage (easy to layout screens), as now you code less of that directly, and might as well just go fo the framework that allows the most flexibility and gives you the best results for your users.
Apple really needs to either double down on it, and make it such that it has everything that UIKit has (match both features and performance), or just turn it into another optional framework, just as Interface Builder (.xib files) back in the day of Objective-C.
Right now it heavily promotes it as a first class citizen, meanwhile the features are not even parity with UIKit. It is so misleading to newcomers to the platform.
Ps. The other upsetting thing about SwiftUI, is that it has hurt the Swift language as well, as the team has had to introduce all kinds of hacks, or obscure features to the language in order to make it work, which made even the Swift language experience worse and more complicated than it should have been.
> With AI coding... SwiftUI lost its edge/advantage
On the contrary, I think AI has made it EASIER to approach SwiftUI now, because AI makes up for SwiftUI's biggest weaknesses: the many ways of doing everything, Apple's wonky documentation and the need to know when to fall back to AppKit/UIKit.
Maybe for you. But SwiftUI promise was to make coding UI easier for the programmer similar to ReactN, but with AI coding that is not necessary anymore, you can go straight to UIKit which is most stable and feature complete.
In car terms:
UIKit - Manual Transmission - you control everything, but a bit of a chore
SwiftUI - Slushbox Auto Transmission - easier to drive, sucks for performance
UIKIT+AI Coding - Dual Clutch Transmission - both great performance, and easy to control/drive
WPF was stamped out by lack of dogfooding = inability to inspire confidence. Back when I wanted it to succeed, Microsoft was barely using it in any of their own apps.
Apple has used SwiftUI in their OS more than MS/Windows did, and there's quite a few apps on the App Store that -seem- to be made with SwiftUI.
I fell in love with SwiftUI the day it was announced, but as a solo dev I still haven't been able to make a full app with it yet, mostly because of the lack of documentation, and the gaps where you still need to drop down to AppKit/UIKit.
I went through Visual Basic, .NET, WPF, Cocoa, and other random frameworks all professing to be the promised panacea for UI, but I think SwiftUI+SwiftData is the best environment ever.. IF only it could reach its full potential, i.e. do everything that Apple's "legacy" APIs can do.
The worst hinderance that cripples and sours the experience is Apple's insistence on a yearly update cycle and the way they advertise those updates: You have to wait for the next WWDC and suffer through videos of uncanny-valley presenters, hoping to catch a glimpse of something that fixes the shit that was bothering you since the last WWDC.
At least the Swift language has been getting more regular updates since it went open source.
There's no way I'd dare to take on a full Apple-platform app project alone on my own, but I've started dabbling in it again thanks to AI: Codex even converted an old app I made in Visual Basic 900 years ago and had it running in SwiftUI within minutes!
I've even tried to get AI to sift through the WWDC video transcripts so I won't have to waste my mortal lifespan on that.
> There's no way I'd dare to take on a full Apple-platform app project alone on my own
And that's really sad, because earlier Mac OS X (and even OPENSTEP to a degree) was an Eldorado for boutique developers, not least due to frameworks like Cocoa and Objective-C (despite all the hate it seems to get).
If you knew C, it was not hard to grasp Objective-C (at least it was much easier than say C++ and MFC on the Windows side of things).
That's actually why I jumped from Windows to Mac in the first place!
My first Apple purchase was an iPad I got for my aunt, and I loved how streamlined yet powerful it was so I installed a VM on Windows to dabble in iOS development, and fell in love with the sheer consistency of macOS, iOS and their APIs.
This was during the era when Microsoft was still figuring out whether to keep the Start Menu and replace the whole Windows UX with a tablet UI, so it was an easy jump.
Almost never looked back, and whenever I do I'm glad I jumped.
Then came Swift and I loved it, but then it took literal years to catch up with everything you could do in Objective-C with the Apple APIs. SwiftUI is having the same problem but for much longer :(
SwiftUI is good, albeit not without issues, as long as you tolerate them. The same is true for any approach. My most recent app was built in SwiftUI because I have been using React Native in my professional work for so long I wanted a change of scenery.
Each approach has its issues, and it all boils down to a matter of preference and which tradeoffs are appropriate for the project.
I’ve worked on some award winning apps in the past, our experience with SwiftUI is it makes it really easy to develop a basic average looking app. As soon as you need something non-standard, you have to drop down to UIKit and figure out how to play nice between the two, which is often non trivial and hard to estimate. You file radars, which at best will be fixed in the next OS release and rarely back ported if at all.
In the end some of the more complicated apps just ditched SwiftUI altogether or applied a myriad of workarounds.
I know people would dismiss this, but I'm going to try to make the case for Qt - I'm currently converting my note-taking app to mobile and it's going very well.
Yes, Qt is mature and high-quality software. If you’re doing OSS, then Qt is truly a no brainer. The amount of C++ you have to write is truly minimal, and it’s not “raw” C++. There’s a lot of tooling and libraries. You can target web now too, and QML is legitimately good.
If KDE can develop a high performance stable desktop, you can design whatever.
Same here, but Liquid Glass has been a headache lately. Google really dropped the ball here, but to their credit it almost feels like Liquid Glass was an intentional move by Apple to cause as much friction for cross platform frameworks as possible.
Define right, it’s hard to replicate the native UI especially Liquid Glass on iOS because it’s rendering everything using its own rendering engine, making it hard to feel right on iOS. I have also seen a lot of companies move away from flutter to either native or React Native.
Well we all love Liquid Glass. Most loved UX update in iPhone and macOS history. Massive dealbreaker for an app not to look like Liquid Glass. I definitely choose apps based on whether they look like proper Liquid Glass applications instead of the developer taking shortcuts and focusing on working features instead.
Well I’m a heavy Flutter user myself, and the app I built Hacki often gets reviews saying it doesn’t feel native on iOS. I personally don’t have anything against it and I think Flutter has the BEST developer experience compared to other mobile app dev toolkit/SDKs.
Agreed. SwiftData is terrible for anything more than like 2 "Models". I have a bunch of apps written with SwiftData and a bunch more with GRDB... I hate touching the SwiftData ones.
Somehow you being the GNOME co-creator made me curious about what the GTK/GIMP creators (Kimball, Mattis) are up to. CockroachDB, it seems. It's weird how it's so easy to miss these things.
I joked, but reading the post is even more clear - man this poor dude.
He is brute forcing his way through life and broadcasting it on YouTube.
Dunno man, Xogot is made up of almost half a million lines of code. Of those 727 files use SwiftUI, and 65 use UIKit, 119 use AppKit (I did not count the overlap, so they are not mutually exclusive).
Using GeometryReader makes it clear he is living in the past and the fact that he uses printChanges in this year without mentioning the dedicated SwiftUI instrument show a lack of curiosity on the space.
The problem with complex systems is that you can be dead long before you realize you're dead. Things can continue to seem "pretty good" for a long time just from the inertia of past good decisions and built-up infrastructure. You see some fraying or cracks but everything looks fundamentally sound, until it isn't.
Apple's inability to deploy a new UI framework that's better than the previous one is troubling. This is the company that shifted from Toolbox to Carbon to Cocoa and each step was better than the last. Could Apple build MacOS X and Cocoa today if they didn't already exist? Microsoft's two decades of failure to ship a true successor to Win32 suggests that Microsoft (at least, the operating system side of the company) died a long time ago. I wonder if we'll say the same thing about Apple 10 years hence.
I think the problem with SwiftUI in a way was (or is) that Cocoa was so good. And, at least IMHO, it didn't need replacing, just improving.
But I feel like Apple wanted to appeal to young web devs and tried to offer something more similar to what these are used to.
Totally agreed. I kind of figured things were going to get shitty when the guy who made autolayout got hounded on so hard that he left.
I sure hope they can figure out a way through. Whatever it is, SwiftUI isn't it.
I think the main issue is the functional approach. Having a functional approach to state can be quite elegant, but ultimately the computer does not do functional. You have to implement a lot of plumbing to have stuff that is a bit performance (clojure), or just add a veneer of functional over what is essentially a normal state machine (emacs).
React works well, because it's only an abstraction over the real DOM. React only handles your app state. But the DOM mechanism is still very performant and very much imperative. But I don't think something like React would work well in a mobile app, because the UI tree is often very simple on iOS and macOS.
Hmm, but React doesn’t own or manage the app state. And react native has been used for pretty complex applications
Functional doesn't mean stateless. I'd argue functional programming is superior for representing state in user interfaces. For a success implementation, see Jane Street's Bonsai:
https://github.com/janestreet/bonsai
> functional programming is superior for representing state in user interfaces
It's always going to be slower than using something imperative. Trying to process the entire world's state for the sake of purity can feel elegant but it isn't free. And the complexity that gets added to make things performant is worse than just accepting that UIs are going to require you to jump around the tree and modify state.
Every time I go through the trouble of understanding the latest web technique (React, Elm, Signals (the newest solution), etc.) to deal with state management and the DOM, I end up walking away disappointed. There's nothing new in them that you can use to improve what we've been doing for ages in native GUI toolkits.
And to jump back to the point of this thread, yes, Cocoa was pretty decent, and SwiftUI while nice in many ways tries to Reactify native macOS development and make it worse. And it made Swift incredibly more complex and worse in hindsight.
Not sure how you define "success" here. Is Bonsai used much outside of Jane Street?
> Functional doesn't mean stateless.
I didn't say that.
User interfaces representation are mostly trees. And with functional programming you basically have Tree2 = f(Tree1). Until f is done you can't do anything really. React has a lot of escape hatches to improve performance, but they are escape hatches, not an endorsement of the architecture.
With imperative programming (and OOP), you only have that single `Tree`, which you update at will. Less elegant yes, but we have modularization to help us there. What Emacs does is to keep that `Tree` as a single mutable object, but have the code be functional, while the results are imperative.
I only have to look at the iPhone fucking 17 to know Apple is long gone.
Genuinely curious, what’s wrong with it?
I’m no huge apple fan, but I didn’t really think the 17 was more than a regular boring spec upgrade, which seems fine all things considered. (Currently on an iPhone fucking 17)
I'm sure many will disagree, but I have doubts that pure declarative-reactive is the "right" shape for an all-purpose native UI framework. In my experience, Kotlin+Compose shares many of the same warts… its main redeeming quality is that it's better than Android Framework (most of the time), which is low bar to clear.
These frameworks have a number of good ideas but they don't necessarily combine in a way that transcends high quality traditional imperative frameworks with declarative-reactive bits sprinkled throughout, at least for more complex apps. SwiftUI and its ilk work best for super simple tabs-and-flat-lists sorts of apps.
I think open source is the right move here. The great thing about Flutter is you get the declarative UI to build a lot of standard screens easily but you can always drop down to lower levels, inspect the standard components, mix and match with your custom implementation. You can mix UKit and SwiftUI but there’s way more friction due to the closed nature of the SDK.
Fully agree (been an early Flutter adopter!). It's always the right too for the right job, declarativness makes a lot of sense for most UIs. UIs are surprisingly more complicated than one might think, there is accessibility/ theming/ keyboard traversal etc., just declaring UI and letting the framework figure out the rest has held up pretty well.
And because of the open source nature you can always drop down in layers, just a few weeks ago I made a very specific engine optimization, all while the application code on-top can stay declarative!
Perhaps. Certainly source visibility makes life easier as a dev who has to live with these frameworks on a daily basis. That said, I think frameworks should strive to have a wide and deep enough set of widgets that in most cases, devs won't need to resort to custom implementations to do what they need to.
It also doesn't fix problems inherent to declarative UI, like readability breaking down easily and certain things that would be a cinch in an imperative framework being extremely awkward to implement.
> real, production-grade UI framework
What does this even mean? There are hundreds of thousands of apps in the App Store that are 100% SwiftUI. They are real. And they are very much "production grade".
The only people still complaining about SwiftUI 7 years later are the UIKit holdouts that never took the time to properly learn how to use it.
SwiftUI it is the type of framework that makes the easy things easier to accomplish but the harder things harder.
It is a newbie trap. It is great at producing simple apps, or things that don't require intense scrolling, or anything with heavy animations and precise layouts, but when you do something smooth, it is not it. It feels more of a React Native competitor, than a true UIKit replacement.
Also, almost everything that Apple has re-wrote with SwiftUI, came out worse as before (Settings, Spotlight, etc), and that doesn't help.
With AI coding... SwiftUI lost its edge/advantage (easy to layout screens), as now you code less of that directly, and might as well just go fo the framework that allows the most flexibility and gives you the best results for your users.
Apple really needs to either double down on it, and make it such that it has everything that UIKit has (match both features and performance), or just turn it into another optional framework, just as Interface Builder (.xib files) back in the day of Objective-C.
Right now it heavily promotes it as a first class citizen, meanwhile the features are not even parity with UIKit. It is so misleading to newcomers to the platform.
Ps. The other upsetting thing about SwiftUI, is that it has hurt the Swift language as well, as the team has had to introduce all kinds of hacks, or obscure features to the language in order to make it work, which made even the Swift language experience worse and more complicated than it should have been.
> With AI coding... SwiftUI lost its edge/advantage
On the contrary, I think AI has made it EASIER to approach SwiftUI now, because AI makes up for SwiftUI's biggest weaknesses: the many ways of doing everything, Apple's wonky documentation and the need to know when to fall back to AppKit/UIKit.
Maybe for you. But SwiftUI promise was to make coding UI easier for the programmer similar to ReactN, but with AI coding that is not necessary anymore, you can go straight to UIKit which is most stable and feature complete.
In car terms:
UIKit - Manual Transmission - you control everything, but a bit of a chore
SwiftUI - Slushbox Auto Transmission - easier to drive, sucks for performance
UIKIT+AI Coding - Dual Clutch Transmission - both great performance, and easy to control/drive
A similar story to WPF.
WPF was abandoned at birth, it went years without any attention and then was superseded.
Apple has at least been consistent on UI frameworks.
Sort of superseded. In practice WPF is still very often the best option in the complete mess that is window GUIs
WPF was stamped out by lack of dogfooding = inability to inspire confidence. Back when I wanted it to succeed, Microsoft was barely using it in any of their own apps.
Apple has used SwiftUI in their OS more than MS/Windows did, and there's quite a few apps on the App Store that -seem- to be made with SwiftUI.
I fell in love with SwiftUI the day it was announced, but as a solo dev I still haven't been able to make a full app with it yet, mostly because of the lack of documentation, and the gaps where you still need to drop down to AppKit/UIKit.
I went through Visual Basic, .NET, WPF, Cocoa, and other random frameworks all professing to be the promised panacea for UI, but I think SwiftUI+SwiftData is the best environment ever.. IF only it could reach its full potential, i.e. do everything that Apple's "legacy" APIs can do.
I even tried using SwiftUI for games: https://i.imgur.com/5aTWbft.mp4
The worst hinderance that cripples and sours the experience is Apple's insistence on a yearly update cycle and the way they advertise those updates: You have to wait for the next WWDC and suffer through videos of uncanny-valley presenters, hoping to catch a glimpse of something that fixes the shit that was bothering you since the last WWDC.
At least the Swift language has been getting more regular updates since it went open source.
There's no way I'd dare to take on a full Apple-platform app project alone on my own, but I've started dabbling in it again thanks to AI: Codex even converted an old app I made in Visual Basic 900 years ago and had it running in SwiftUI within minutes!
I've even tried to get AI to sift through the WWDC video transcripts so I won't have to waste my mortal lifespan on that.
> There's no way I'd dare to take on a full Apple-platform app project alone on my own
And that's really sad, because earlier Mac OS X (and even OPENSTEP to a degree) was an Eldorado for boutique developers, not least due to frameworks like Cocoa and Objective-C (despite all the hate it seems to get).
If you knew C, it was not hard to grasp Objective-C (at least it was much easier than say C++ and MFC on the Windows side of things).
That's actually why I jumped from Windows to Mac in the first place!
My first Apple purchase was an iPad I got for my aunt, and I loved how streamlined yet powerful it was so I installed a VM on Windows to dabble in iOS development, and fell in love with the sheer consistency of macOS, iOS and their APIs.
This was during the era when Microsoft was still figuring out whether to keep the Start Menu and replace the whole Windows UX with a tablet UI, so it was an easy jump.
Almost never looked back, and whenever I do I'm glad I jumped.
Then came Swift and I loved it, but then it took literal years to catch up with everything you could do in Objective-C with the Apple APIs. SwiftUI is having the same problem but for much longer :(
Is the right way to develop mobile apps flutter? or Kotlin multiplatform plus native UIs?
There is no right way :)
SwiftUI is good, albeit not without issues, as long as you tolerate them. The same is true for any approach. My most recent app was built in SwiftUI because I have been using React Native in my professional work for so long I wanted a change of scenery.
Each approach has its issues, and it all boils down to a matter of preference and which tradeoffs are appropriate for the project.
I’ve worked on some award winning apps in the past, our experience with SwiftUI is it makes it really easy to develop a basic average looking app. As soon as you need something non-standard, you have to drop down to UIKit and figure out how to play nice between the two, which is often non trivial and hard to estimate. You file radars, which at best will be fixed in the next OS release and rarely back ported if at all. In the end some of the more complicated apps just ditched SwiftUI altogether or applied a myriad of workarounds.
I wonder what experts think of this other option: going fully native for one platform then vibe-porting it to others.
I developed a complicated app in Flutter and it’s one of the best engineering decisions I made. Flutter is great.
I know people would dismiss this, but I'm going to try to make the case for Qt - I'm currently converting my note-taking app to mobile and it's going very well.
It's licensing is expensive though unless the app is opensource.
Yes, Qt is mature and high-quality software. If you’re doing OSS, then Qt is truly a no brainer. The amount of C++ you have to write is truly minimal, and it’s not “raw” C++. There’s a lot of tooling and libraries. You can target web now too, and QML is legitimately good.
If KDE can develop a high performance stable desktop, you can design whatever.
Flutter is not the "right way", due to the nature of Flutter being a lousy reimplementation of a UI frameworks.
Flutter has been a great success for us.
Same here, but Liquid Glass has been a headache lately. Google really dropped the ball here, but to their credit it almost feels like Liquid Glass was an intentional move by Apple to cause as much friction for cross platform frameworks as possible.
Define right, it’s hard to replicate the native UI especially Liquid Glass on iOS because it’s rendering everything using its own rendering engine, making it hard to feel right on iOS. I have also seen a lot of companies move away from flutter to either native or React Native.
Well we all love Liquid Glass. Most loved UX update in iPhone and macOS history. Massive dealbreaker for an app not to look like Liquid Glass. I definitely choose apps based on whether they look like proper Liquid Glass applications instead of the developer taking shortcuts and focusing on working features instead.
You jest but yes, even as I do not love this new update, an application bucking Apple platform standards personally sours me pretty hard on it.
I despise Liquid Glass too but for most users there’s a broad feeling of “it fits” vs doesn’t. And apps with Liquid Glass fit today’s iOS.
Well I’m a heavy Flutter user myself, and the app I built Hacki often gets reviews saying it doesn’t feel native on iOS. I personally don’t have anything against it and I think Flutter has the BEST developer experience compared to other mobile app dev toolkit/SDKs.
SwiftUI is gold compared to SwiftData.
Agreed. SwiftData is terrible for anything more than like 2 "Models". I have a bunch of apps written with SwiftData and a bunch more with GRDB... I hate touching the SwiftData ones.
skills issue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
Let me rephrase, he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
In my professional medical opinion, he is at high risk of being replaced by a year old low-end Chinese open source LLM.
Somehow you being the GNOME co-creator made me curious about what the GTK/GIMP creators (Kimball, Mattis) are up to. CockroachDB, it seems. It's weird how it's so easy to miss these things.
I joked, but reading the post is even more clear - man this poor dude.
He is brute forcing his way through life and broadcasting it on YouTube.
Dunno man, Xogot is made up of almost half a million lines of code. Of those 727 files use SwiftUI, and 65 use UIKit, 119 use AppKit (I did not count the overlap, so they are not mutually exclusive).
Using GeometryReader makes it clear he is living in the past and the fact that he uses printChanges in this year without mentioning the dedicated SwiftUI instrument show a lack of curiosity on the space.